Accidental Wii Suicide 1343
Paul Taylor noted a story that I would have thought to be an April Fool's Day joke a few weeks from now, which makes it only seem more tragic. A 3-year-old shot herself with a gun after mistaking it for a Wii controller.
Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is manslaughter. Whoever left a gun near a 3-year-old needs locking up.
What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:5, Insightful)
But the fact that there are no charges being pressed enrages me. The article says:
Law Enforcement: If You're a Gun Owner, You Have to Be Responsible
Or what? Someone will shake their finger at you?
Cheyenne Alexis McKeehan was a victim of either neglect, ignorance or willful intent of her stepfather. Which one, no one can ever be sure of. Regardless of the circumstances he improperly stored a loaded handgun in his home in reach of a three year old.
Saying "terrible lapse of judgment" and "be responsible next time" isn't enough for me. This man should be charged with child endangerment so that people take their Second Amendment Rights seriously and responsibly should they choose to exercise them.
Were I a prosecutor, I would push for the jury to see that going through the trouble to find a toy (not regularly distributed commercially here) for your child identical to the loaded handgun that you "happened" to leave on the table one evening is more than suspicious.
If you have children, invest in a home security system before a handgun, folks.
Why is the wii controller even mentioned? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is the Wii controller even mentioned in this freakin' story? The kid shot themselves with a loaded gun left laying around by the parent. This has nothing to do with the Wii, and everything to do with some dumbfuck leaving a loaded gun laying around with a three year old in the house. I don't care what you child does for fun, leaving a loaded gun all willy-nilly where the child can reach it is the height of responsibility.
We don't need gun control, we need idiot control.
Re:Suicide? (Score:2, Insightful)
yeah, because her dad is probably really well right now.
He's an idiot, but I dunno if he really needs jail. I'm sure the loss of his child is punishment enough.
I can't imagine how terrible being in his situation would be, sounds worse than jail.
Suicide, my ass! (Score:5, Insightful)
WTF is wrong with you submitter? This is negligent homicide by the family. They left a loaded, cocked, pistol on a table where a three year old can get it. A three year old does not have a concept of life and death, and does not commit suicide. By throwing around the S-word you're taking the blame off the people it truly belongs to: the parents. People who cannot treat firearms with the respect they deserve should not have them.
Already the news is making an issue out of the fact that it's a Wii-related death. It's not. It's a loaded gun left out in the open. It doesn't matter if the Wii gun "looked" real, it wasn't. You can have a real, pink, Hello Kitty revolver there. It doesn't matter. A loaded and cocked gun was left where a curious child can get it.
Re:Suicide? (Score:2, Insightful)
Agreed...this is punishment enough. He shouldn't be made an example of, but he should be used as an example as to why we need more education 9although having to tell someone to not leavea loaded gun laying around a kid is...wow, that's pretty bad.)
Remember folks: just because it is your right doesn't mean you have to be a fuckhead about it. Use some common sense.
Re:Why is the wii controller even mentioned? (Score:3, Insightful)
How fucking stupid... (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you have to be to leave your gun out with people in your home, let alone a child? Dad wasn't allowed to do anything upon entering our home after work, not even take off his shoes or coat, until he walked straight to the safe and put his gun away. If he ever forgot, Mom would have kicked his ass out of the house faster than you can say First Post!
Typical /. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's good to see that the /. editorial bias is still very much well and truly alive. What's the point of this story (especially posted under games?) if it isn't to exploit one family's tragedy to promote the political ideology of the /. gatekeepers? I guess common decency and good taste are not among their core competencies.
Poor choice of everything. (Score:5, Insightful)
First of all, this wasn't an "accidental suicide", it was an accidental death.
Second of all, putting "wii" in the title is highly misleading and is typical of today's media which is more interested in tabloid journalism, trying to grab everyones attention by assuming all your readers are more responsitive to these kind of headlines.
My respect for Slashdot just went down a few.
Re:Why is the wii controller even mentioned? (Score:3, Insightful)
Irrelevant (although having guns in the house AND having a controller shell that looks like that is a bad idea). The point here is a moron left a loaded firearm where a kid could reach it. The fact that the kid managed to shoot herself implies that it was left with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked as well...I doubt a three-year-old could do anything with a gun beyond pulling the trigger.
That makes this go from tragic and avoidable to just plain despicable.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:5, Insightful)
But the fact that there are no charges being pressed enrages me.
Are you a parent? There's absolutely NOTHING they could do to the guy that would be worse than losing a child. I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up comitting suicide intentionally, with the same gun. I can't imagine how much this guy's hurting right now.
I'd also betting his marriage is over. Yes, charges of child endangerment could be filed, but no punishment is going to change anything; no punishment that state can inflict will come close to what he's done to himself.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also called being a responsible parent, not only for the gun part, but for the Wii part. Who lets their three year-old play shooting games on the Wii? I have a Wii and Xbox360 and my seven year-old does not play violent games. Any games which have any possibility of bad content which he plays are played with me there. He's a damn smart kid but I want to reinforce the right ideas and right values in him.
This father should be hung. Who leaves a loaded gun in the house, let alone on the table, let alone with kids in the house? And you know what? Kids like guns, even before video game consoles. Even if this kid wouldn't have played Wii she probably would have grabbed it.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
yeah, because her dad is probably really well right now.
He's an idiot, but I dunno if he really needs jail. I'm sure the loss of his child is punishment enough.
I can't imagine how terrible being in his situation would be, sounds worse than jail.
What if he has more kids? What if it was an illegal gun? This guy needs some jail time.
Whether he feels bad about it or not there should be a severe punishment for this level of recklessness, negligence and stupidity. Just add a gun to that level of child care and it will never end well.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Media Hysteria (Score:4, Insightful)
However, I do believe the model in question is double-action only, which means requiring a very long trigger pull that ought to be beyond the finger strength limits of a 3-year-old girl, so who knows just how "accidental" this really is.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not what law is for.
The parents have been punished enough by the natural consequences of their own actions. What purpose could it possibly have to add an artificial punishment on top of that?
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Chances are very high it was loaded, round in chamber, and with the hammer cocked (and the safety off). The girl was three years old. Are you saying that she had the knowledge (and strength) to make that pistol ready to fire if it wasn't already like that?
Re:Poor choice of everything. (Score:3, Insightful)
You had respect for Slashdot?
You must be new here!
Re:I wonder... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
Absolutely. I am a conceal-carry holder and I have a number of handguns. I also have a one year-old and a seven year-old. I have an electronic safe which all my guns go in, as well as trigger locks. It's called being a responsible gun-owner.
Glad to see some other people are...it's getting harder and harder to find people that take the extra steps necessary to keep things safe.
This father should be hung. Who leaves a loaded gun in the house, let alone on the table, let alone with kids in the house? And you know what? Kids like guns, even before video game consoles. Even if this kid wouldn't have played Wii she probably would have grabbed it.
Not just loaded, but with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked back. Unless someone wants to try to convince me that a three year old had the knowledge and strength to pull the hammer back...
Re:Why is the wii controller even mentioned? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm just glad it was their child. The real tragedy is when someone leaves out a gun, and their child shoots someone else's child.
That's pretty fucked up, it's still an innocent child with the whole world ahead of her. Don't devalue a life because of poor decision on the parent's part.
Re:Why is the wii controller even mentioned? (Score:4, Insightful)
The idea that she was picking it up so she could play a game on the Wii seems a stretch at best, even if it looked similar to the controller. Hell, even a three year old would be able to tell something wasn't right just by the difference in weight between a plastic game controller and a real gun. The fact that she apparently pointed the gun at her own chest and pulled the trigger suggests she just found a new toy and was screwing around with it...
Or: Gun was on coffee table (where most wii controllers are kept), she walks up to it in such a way that it's pointed at her, she grabs with her thumb on the trigger (thus able to use a much stronger pull on the trigger), and tragedy results. In this scenario, she never had to lift the gun, just depress the trigger. BTW, when a child of 3 realizes something is different, it means "fun fun fun", not "something's not right, perhaps I should exercise caution" They only exhibit caution for instinctual fears.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:2, Insightful)
Except he is a stepfather.
Call me "crazy conspiracy theory lunatic" but this is a great plan to get rid of the "TAX" (aggregated "value") that came with marrying this guy wife. Ohh.. I "accidentally" placed my loaded gun in the place where the girl used to play with her toy gun. WTF.
I definitely agree they should press charges against this bastard. He is irresponsible and caused the murder of this girl.
Re:Blame the Wii! (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't blame the absurd gun laws that allow every douchebag the "right" to bear arms..
Here in the USA, we have that right here. We value it. I'd recommend living in another country if you can't accept it. That being said, gun ownership is a serious responsibility. My guns, when they aren't physically on me, are in a separate room that has it's own lock with a separate key. Furthermore, a gun is always loaded. Always. That's the attitude you need to have, and I would never leave a gun, even if I thought it was unloaded, where a child could reach it. ...and having a realistic gun controller for a three year old to play with is just flat spooky.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
"It was proabably the middle of the night, everyone was sleeping. He wasn't thinking, or was thinking that he had put it away far enough, or that he'd wake up before his kid."
And left a loaded, ready-to-shoot firearm in the middle of the room like you would a discarded plate or an old newspaper. There's no excuse. And this is exactly the problem with gun-owning countries - it's the middle of the night, everybody's sleeping, he hears a sound, panics, he's ***not thinking*** straight, and ends up aiming at things with a gun... a banging door, a stray animal, a kid trying to get his ball back when his parents won't know (weird, yeah, that's a weird situation, but it happens), a partygoer who's accidentally stumbled into the wrong back yard, a neighbour who's jumped over the fence to see what the strange sound was in his friend's back garden...
It's a gun. It's used to kill things, and only to kill things. Don't ready it unnecessarily, don't leave it lying about, don't carry it unnecessarily, don't use it when you're not confident of your abilities and judgement, and keep it THE HELL out of the way of children, or even your whole family. For some reason people seem to think less of that than if he'd left an upturned lawnmower, with the safety features dismantled, turned on and plugged in, in the same room. To be honest, I'd have had a LOT more sympathy for the guy in question if the child had done something with a dismantled lawnmower rather than a gun... at least he *could* have a nearly-plausible reason for having the thing sitting in his house in that kind of state.
Even if we take the "home defence" argument - the pillock left the gun downstairs, with ammunition in it after his initial fears were calmed. If there *had* been someone in the house that he didn't see, he's just handed them a free deadly weapon with which to kill him.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether he feels bad about it or not there should be a severe punishment for this level of recklessness, negligence and stupidity.
Exactly. Using that judgment, every person who recklessly drives and kills someone should be let off the hook because "they feel horrible about it." The same analogy can be used for any other situation where someone feels remorse for their actions.
Re:I wonder... (Score:5, Insightful)
I hope you don't have any kids. I'll bet they turn out to be little crybaby porkers, allergic to everything because they were kept inside like prize housepets, the kind of rotten shits who throw piercing tantrums in public and have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the car just because you didn't buy'em their fifth candy bar of the day.
So wait... (Score:3, Insightful)
Something doesn't make sense.
Firstly, they have a Wii controller that looks like a very realistic imitation of a real gun.
Secondly, this is a controller that you have to actively make an effort to go out, find, and buy, because you would never find it through regular channels.
Thirdly, the father is claming that he had no idea that they owned such a controller, or even any knowledge of what games the child is playing. What the hell kind of game does a 3 year old play that requires a realistic gun controller? Grand Theft Stroller?
Either the parents are grossly incompetent and stupid, or they're incompetent and stupid AND they're trying to mollify their guilty conscience by putting some of the blame on a video game accessory that they should never have owned to begin with.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair, the father left the gun, but the mother was in the room with the child and the gun at the time of the accident, sitting at her computer. There's plenty of negligence to go around here.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:5, Insightful)
Law Enforcement: If You're a Gun Owner, You Have to Be Responsible
Or what? Someone will shake their finger at you?
Or your daughter might accidentally shoot herself. If punishment is intended to deter or rehabilitate you, what more do you think they really need? Any punishment now would just be for the sake of making these people pay.
WTF? (Score:2, Insightful)
From TFA: "The unfortunate thing is that this Nintendo game called Wii had what looks like a solid black, basically automatic-looking type mechanism that operates the game,"
No, the unfortunate thing is that the fucking gun was left out in the first place. Would the child still have shot herself if the gun was left out and they didn't even own a Wii? The anti-gun/anti-vidya game loons are gonna have a field day with this one...
Re:Suicide? (Score:1, Insightful)
Or maybe,... you know,... there could be some restrictions to who can and who cannot own a gun ?
Oh, nooo! I'm sorry, that's a god given right.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:3, Insightful)
If I'm not mistaken, any proscecution should (among other things) also pass a test of "be in the interest of society". I doubt that is the case here. You lock up criminals:
Also jail time would serve as punishment. Hardly a point for that: no bigger punishment thinkable than losing your own 3 year old.
So, no charges (?, left to be decided I suppose) because it serves no purpose, these parents are already punished enough (for the rest of their lives), and resources/court time is better spent on other cases. A thorough investigation to get a clear picture of what happened: yes, that might be useful.
Suspicious Death (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm with the crew that says this doesn't add up.
1) Stepfather goes out of his way to buy obscure Wii controller that looks like the handgun he owns
2) Stepfather leaves loaded gun on coffee table in the living room, presumably where the Wii controllers sit. (Not in the bedroom, not on a shelf, etc. Even if he's lazy, you would probably leave a loaded gun somewhere other than your living room.)
3) Stepfather leaves the gun on the coffee table with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. (This is important because a 3 year old probably wouldn't have the strength to overcome the hammer action and pull the trigger otherwise.)
Too many "coincidences" here. That's all I'm saying.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
i'm just wondering which war-torn 3rd world country you live in to need 24h firearm-level self defense...
Re:How did a 3-year old pull the trigger? (Score:4, Insightful)
Really? A toddler pulling the trigger of a .380? A toddler?
I smell bullshit.
Good point!
AFAIK, S&W only makes one .380, the Sigma 380 [wikipedia.org]. This gun has no manual safety, instead it's a double action-only pistol with a long, heavy trigger pull. An eight to ten pound trigger pull. It's hard to believe that a toddler could have managed that.
As a responsible gun owner... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's get this out of our systems: The parents were horribly irresponsible and deserve to be charged with some kind of crime. In most states (including mine) it is a felony to leave a weapon where a minor can gain access to it.
That being said, as a responsible gun owner, I don't like my son to have guns as toys. Toy guns are safe. Toy guns never hurt anybody. Toy guns teach every bad habit that gun safety teaches you not to do. Kids literally think guns are toys and can be handled cavalierly.
From the time he could talk I have drilled my son that when he sees a gun, what does he do? "Run away and tell a grown up." What if your friend wants to pick it up? "Run away and tell a grown up." What if your friend has it first and wants to show you? "Run away and tell a grown up."
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
Lesser? Yes. None? No. Jail time (no more than 2 years) and revocation of firearms licence. That's what I'd say.
Re:Suicide, my ass! (Score:5, Insightful)
All of them incriminate the parents equally. There are a few common sense rules of gun safety which get violated far too often. Obeying them religiously is a good idea. For anyone unfamiliar, here are the utter basics:
I don't know how a 3-year-old girl was able to shoot herself. But there are many, many types of pistols on the market, some of which are not much heavier than a Wii controller even when they're loaded, particularly those chambered for .22 Long Rifle cartridges. The real point is that it doesn't matter what kind of gun it was or how a 3-year-old was able to mistake it for a Wii controller (which itself is mostly speculation since, had there been any witnesses to the kid's supposed mistaken thought process, you'd think they would have stopped her from playing with a loaded gun at some point before she shot herself). What does matter is that a child is dead because someone didn't follow the most basic rules of gun safety.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is an issue of deterrence. The person involved in this case is already suffering enough , but the other people who dont think about gun safety need to know that carelessness leads to accidents leads to severe punishment.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
I disagree. A little switch doesn't do anything a little education doesn't do better.
Your guns are worthless... (Score:5, Insightful)
You're gonna die from a hearth attack or a stroke. Possibly cancer.
Stress does that to ya.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Can a 3 year old do it in the manner the mother described?
Here's a list (Score:3, Insightful)
1. A felony gun charge means this man won't ever be able to legally own a gun again. That's a good thing as far as I can tell.
2. More news coverage, which means more reminders to gun owners to be responsible.
3. More news coverage, which reminds society of the dangers of firearms, and helps us continue the debate about "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
4. Remember, it wasn't his child. He was the stepfather. Nearly all parents love their own children with everything they've got. Stepparents -- not so much.
Lots of parents are criminally negligent to children they love. It doesn't change the state's responsibility to society as a whole, as well as to the children in the home. This man will still live with at least one other child (a 1 year old). He's clearly not fit to live in a home with children. Yes Martha, any responsible gun owner will tell you that this situation is absolutely impossible for a responsible gun owner. Left it on a table? Forgot about it? Nonsense. As soon as the threat is mitigated, you return that firearm to a holster, and then to a locked cabinet. No exceptions, not ever.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:3, Insightful)
Are you a parent? There's absolutely NOTHING they could do to the guy that would be worse than losing a child.
For the vast majority of parents, yes. Which intersects quite well with the vast majority that won't leave loaded, unsecured guns on a table in the vicinity of small children. What's to say he's not neglectful in gun handling and don't care much in any other way either? This reminds me of an old, old question from discussion groups: If you drink and drive with your best friend and you flip off the road and he dies and you live, is that punishment enough? Our table quite quickly agreed that no, it wasn't. Some other table came to the opposite conclusion, I never understood how. Heartache is really not enough, you can have your heartache in jail.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
Who's scared? I simply admit that shit happens, and am prepared to deal with shit happening to me.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you really think any amount of jail time is worse than the heart tearing pain caused by the loss of a child through your own fault? I'd say he wishes his son killed him instead right now. Jail time is going to do nothing.
The mistake your making is the assumption that a person who leaves a loaded firearm around a 3 year old child gives a crap.
He should receive a heavy custodial sentence not to make him feel bad, but as an attempt to get people to take a little more care over where they stick their firearms. This idiocy needs to be stamped on hard when ever it occurs even when the end result is the death of a small child.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
i'm just wondering which war-torn 3rd world country you live in to need 24h firearm-level self defense...
I have a similar setup...and I live in war-torn Atlanta, GA.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
1. The parents purposefully sought out a rare game controller that looked like a real gun FOR THEIR THREE YEAR OLD DAUGHTER
2. Then the father LEFT A REAL LOADED GUN that looked eerily similar to the kid's game controller (by fucking design, I might add) ON THE COFFEE TABLE which is probably EXACTLY WHERE THE FUCKING THREE YEAR OLD KID TYPICALLY LEFT HER GAME CONTROLLER.
3. Then they are shocked and surprised she picked it up and fired it.
I generally would not advocate taking children from their parents but somebody might want to think long and hard about the wisdom of leaving the 1yr old in the care of parents so f**ed up it's not even funny.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
Keeping your finger off the trigger works better than relying on a safety.
Re:Gun was owned by STEPfather, not father. (Score:5, Insightful)
Divorced guys know ALL about this scenario. The ex's new boyfriend doesn't have the fact that they are his kids programmed into him 24/7
In my experience, ex's new boyfriend has the fact that they are *Not* his kids programmed into him 24/7, by either the kids (tween-teen), or by the mother (if they're single-digit age).
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all, it's not her father, it was her step-father. Secondly, something doesn't feel right about this. There just happened to be a fully loaded gun with a bullet in the chamber that's exactly like a rare wii controller. If the mother was just 'three feet' from her child when it happened, didn't she notice her climbing up on to the table and struggling with the heavy metal gun? He just happened to be investigating a prowler?
I'm not saying this wasn't an accident but perhaps the adults were more involved than they claim. If I was the police I would be pushing them a bit harder. Ultimately though, what difference does it make.
Re:Your guns are worthless... (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not stressed, about safety anyhow.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
He's an idiot, but I dunno if he really needs jail.
He may not need jail, but he *DOES* need to be disallowed from owning or handling firearm.
I'm sure the loss of his child is punishment enough.
No, it isn't. This guy has proven he does not deserve the right to own a firearm. For the safety of everyone around him, he should be convicted of criminal negligence causing death (or whatever the Tenn. equivalent is) so that he can be banned from owning or posessing a firearm.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
He 'forgot about it'?
A semi-automatic pistol?
And her mom didn't notice it?
They both need to be brought up on negligent homicide, and endangerment of a minor charges.
Then let a court of law decide what is the right punishment.
I feel horribly for these people, and even more so for their daughter who is now dead.
That being said.. how the hell do you forget about a semi-automatic pistol?
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:2, Insightful)
The article clearly reads "...left it on a table and forgot about it..."
He didn't just not put it away immediately, he FORGOT ABOUT A LOADED HANDGUN. Mistakes are mistakes. This rises above mistake and into NEGLIGENCE territory. I would argue going out of your way to buy a toy that looks as much like a real gun as possible for A THREE YEAR OLD is negligence also but certainly nowhere near as bad as leaving a real gun on a table and forgetting it.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
and, ideally, a ban on firearms in domestic environments.
I'm not giving up my rights because certain assholes are too irresponsible to educate themselves and their families on proper gun safety.
Re:Suicide? (Score:2, Insightful)
When both major political parties are the same and the "elected leaders" do whatever they want regardless of public opinion, how do you differentiate from a dictatorship?
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wearing seat belts, eating healthy, and learning self defense is being prepared. Leaving loaded weapons around the house is a bit more than just being prepared.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
Leaving? I'm sitting next to my coffee table. They're under my complete control.
Some people watch too much TV (Score:4, Insightful)
This man makes a horrible mistake that will likely haunt him and his family forever, and all some of the people here can say is "I'm upset that he hasn't been charged," or "he should be locked up."
Because that's the solution here...For the state to lock the guy up. Yeah, because incarceration has worked so well to fix all of the problems in our utopia called America.
As if jail time going to bring the girl back, or undo what happened.
It was a horrible accident, and yeah, as a gun owner the man should have known better - but accidents happen. People forget to follow proper procedure on occasion, and on this occasion that error led to this accident.
Trust me, if there was anything fishy about this situation or about this guy they would have him locked up.
The parents should be left alone. The LAST thing they need is for the state lock them up after something like this happens - there is no worse punishment than what they are already going through.
Then I am sure we'll have the usual crowd ready to throw all of our rights under the bus with the tired, old, ridiculous "let's ban guns" argument - you know, because criminals that are ready to kill or rob or break every law inm the book will definitely decide to obey a new gun law because.......because why?
The only thing that I would hope for out of all of this is that it serves as a sobering reminder how very important safety and following procedure is when you are dealing with any tool that has the capacity to kill or maim (firearms, vehicles, power tools, electricity, etc)...
In addition to firearms safety, this is as much about home safety and "childproofing" as it is anything else.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
You just can't stop stupid with a switch. Like that one gun safety instructor who thought his gun was unloaded and thought he'd make a point by pulling the trigger with it to his head. It was loaded, and he's dead. You follow all of the rules, all of the time, or someday something will go wrong, and you'll be sorry.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
So you want to punish him for what some other completely unrelated people _might_ do?
Yeah....that sounds like a country I want to live in......
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wait a second there: so now law is not the same for everyone? When did we start making exceptions? Especially for such crimes as homicide (from neglect or otherwise)? The life of that toddler is as valuable as mine or yours. Just because it was her parent (or step-parent) that caused it, does not mean that the law should regard her case differently than any other homicide.
There is a reason why Justitia, the patron and symbol of justice, is blindfolded [wikipedia.org]
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
The stepchild is the one that aimed the gun at herself. Seriously, even if it were a toy gun... what kind of game was she playing?
I've seen kids point a toy gun at themselves, just because that was the easiest way to fire it, with their thumb, not their index finger.
Do you think a three year old knows what a gun can do? Even if she has seen it being fired? No way that they realise what will happen. Plus they don't have a clue what death means.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the correct analogy would be every person who recklessly drives and kills their child should be let off the hook.
Killing a stranger would make me feel horrible; killing my daughter? I can't even begin to imagine.
Not saying that I agree with the original assertion, but your analogy is a little off.
Re:Suicide? (Score:1, Insightful)
Ummm...the child is dead. We have NO IDEA if he was attracted to it because it looked like the Wii controller. This is simply mommy- and daddy's attempt to DIVERT THE BLAME FROM THEMSELVES.
Please, don't be duped!
The real story is "IDIOT FATHER LEAVES GUN WHERE 3-year old can find it."
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
What happens if you don't have both hands free so you can chamber a round while fending off an assailant with the other hand?
If they don't have a gun, run away. Or hit them.
If they do, give them your money/car/whatever rather than put your life at significant risk.
Re:Here's a list (Score:3, Insightful)
Grimbleton = Gun nut (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, this is an un-verifiable excuse. Easy to say after the fact. Who knows how long the gun was actually sitting on the table?
Fact of the matter is, a child died due to gross negligence. If it was due to being run over by a car, at the very least there would be an investigation and charges brought up.
This happened in a home. A place of safety.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
That is just fantasy. If you get into that situation where your weapon is not ready and your opponent is grappling, then trying to draw it only raises the risk of yourself getting shot in the scuffle. The deterrent purpose of the gun is already gone, since (in your scenario) you are already under attack, and there is also a significant chance that the assailant could snatch the gun from you.
Now step back, and reflect again: a gun serves primarily as a deterrent, which means it does not need to have a round chambered. Secondly, if you do need to fire it, it is a trivial act to chamber a round. Thirdly, if the weapon does end up in the hands of a person who plans to use it against you, then you have a few more seconds to react since the other person will try to fire on the empty chamber to his or her frustration.
Re:Suicide? (Score:1, Insightful)
Fuck Yeah.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
What I want to know is why the safety wasn't set on the gun.
I'm also vaguely curious as to what sort of shooting game the kid was playing that involved pointing the gun at himself....
Not unless the gun was modified a bit, or the three-year-old was a teeny little Hulk Hogan. Trigger pull on otc firearms is high enough that your average small child won't be firing it.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yea, I could understand forgetting about a loaded and primed muzzle loader, but a "SEMI-AUTOMATIC" Pistol!!! (big scare quotes)
Sorry, you obviously have no idea what that means. I don't know of any pistol made for home defense that is not semi-automatic.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
The distinction being that Detroit is one of maybe three or four small parts of America where that level of caution might be kind of justified.
However, Pittsburgh probably is too, so okay, fair enough.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the handgun was cocked, it wouldn't take much force at all.
Bottom line, idiots who leaved cocked, and loaded weapons laying around are the issue (it doesn't even matter if there are kids around or not). He fails the gun safety IQ test.
Careless? There are many things in life you should never be careless about - firearms is one of them.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say that to the police too if I was so f'ing stupid as to leave a gun out for a 3 year old to find. What do you expect him to say, "I've left it on that table 100 times before and this never happened"?
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
And when you are careless with your car and you accidentally kill someone you are rightfully arrested and convicted for vehicular manslaughter.
Re:Suicide? (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if guns aren't in the household, kids need to be educated about them. A fair chunk of the incidents that occur are when kids visit friends houses which do have guns and don't know how to properly behave if they come across them.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
He should be convicted of felony manslaughter.
Wave his jail time, but the felony means he can no longer own a fire arm.
Clearly he isn't responsible enough to own one.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
He shouldn't be allowed to own guns any more.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
ANYONE that knows anything about firearms already knows that you store unloaded, with a trigger lock or in a locked box and with the safety on.
Only he uneducated idiots say they have to keep it loaded and ready for home defense. I can open my lockbox, load the clip and be ready to fire in 12 seconds from the time I am awakened in bed until I hit the floor. I buy the right tools for the use http://www.safetysafeguards.com/site/402168/product/GV1000CDLX [safetysafeguards.com]
Anyone that owns a handgun and does not keep it locked up is a disgrace to gun owners everywhere.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
Based on what we know, I agree with revocation of the firearms license.
What we know:
A gun was left unattended.
A 3 year old child picked up the gun
The 3 year old shot herself.
The owner of the Gun needs to he held responsible for what happened.
Re:Suicide? (Score:2, Insightful)
I tend not to leave things that are *intended* to be used as murder weapons lying around. I don't know about the grandparent poster.
A gun isn't intended to do anything but push a projectile out of a barrel. If they were actively designed to be murder machines, the engineer responsible should be taken out and shot, because they have failed miserably. After all, billions of rounds of ammunition are expended by Americans every year, and only a tiny fraction of those are ever used to injure another person. Why, if you look at it that way, guns have to rank among the least effective murder machines ever devised...
Guns are dangerous items, sure enough, and that's why responsible parents do their best to segregate their young'ns from them as well as all other potential sources of danger--at least until the child reaches an appropriate age to handle the danger responsibly.
The fact is, the parents in this story were just as likely to leave the kid in the bathtub to drown or scald to death (as many hundreds do each year), to be strangulated by loose cords, or to leave them un-guarded from electrocution by uncovered outlets, falling to death out of open windows, or from being scalded to death from the pasta cooking on the stove.
Re:Suicide? (Score:1, Insightful)
What? we punish people in Prison??
They get 3 squares a day, typically better food that I get. they get free cable TV, some prisons they get it in their cells.
They get free health club menberships. AND free college education.
Honestly bring back the breaking big rocks to little rocks non stop manual labor punishment. Plus remove their ability to have ANYTHING. Shit most prisons in the USA are overrun with drugs. you have an easier time getting pot and other drugs in prison than you do on the outside.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:2, Insightful)
I grew up with guns. My dad made sure we knew to NEVER touch them. I also knew he had a loaded pistol kept in a night stand. He told us it was there, and again said to never touch it. We knew it would be serious if something happened.
We also had dangerous chemicals within reach, which we again never touched. Our mom told us it would hurt us and used those mr. yuck stickers to reminder us which ones to stay away from.
You see, there's reasonable reactions, and there is overreactions. Judging the from totally helpless people now bleating about this and that in this country, I think I know where most parents went...
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not? Seems like a classic case for deterrence to work, at least if you believe deterrence in general is a worthwhile concept. What am I missing?
If losing a child doesn't scare a criminal into not committing a crime, what do you think will do it?
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because you never know when it's needed. The only time it's "unnecessary" to have some form of self defense handy is when you're already dead.
Sir —
I've been to many dangerous places around the world, and on numerous occasions I have been in situations where my life has been threatened. However not once have I been in a situation that would have been improved by my possession of a loaded handgun. Similarly, I've trained people in the special forces in hand-to-hand combat, but not once have I ever felt a need to resort to such skills in a threatening situation. That being said, I believe it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it – but more often the capacity for force is merely a facade that lulls people into a false sense of security, depriving the well-armed person of a defence that would actually save them: wits. Wits are an unparalleled form of self defence, and they compare decidedly well to force in their ability to protect one in the most dangerous and unpredictable of situations and in the relative absence of collateral damage.
Re:Here's a list (Score:4, Insightful)
So, a man who does not intentionally do anything wrong--no malice aforethought--deserves to be stripped of effective self-defense tools for the rest of his life? Because of a lapse of judgment that will already be haunting him for the rest of his life?
His right to self defense does not override our right to be safe from negligent idiots. He's already shown himself to be too irresponsible to handle a gun. This is one area where it's not ok to learn from your mistakes. You must think ahead about the consequences of your actions. He was unable to do that, and it cost a life. No second chances.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Make no mistake about it, prison in the USA sucks for the most part. It's not a rehabilitation program. For many folks, its a death sentence, whether that's what the courts ruled their punishment to be or not.
Cheers.
Re:Suicide? (Score:1, Insightful)
How dense are you? The kid almost certainly was not holding the gun "properly."
She most likely had it backwards in two hands, holding the barrel and grip, and manipulated the trigger with her thumb.
Re:Suicide? (Score:2, Insightful)
You'd have a point if that were always true, but its not. Neglegent != careless. Oh and charged != convicted. You really think ever manslaught charge involved a car results in conviction?
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:2, Insightful)
And what's so shocking is the extensive negligence shown.
He left a loaded, cocked, unattended weapon gun in his house next to a toy gun, where an unsupervised, uninformed 3-yr-old has access to it.
It's surprising how little negligence it takes to cause an accident. It's not surprising that an accident occurred in this case.
Guns should never be loaded in a house.
Guns should never be cocked while loaded unless you mean to fire.
Guns should never be unattended unless locked in a safe.
Fake/toy guns can be easily mistaken for the real thing.
3-yr-olds should be supervised at all times, regardless of whether gun is involved or not.
Children should be taught to respect guns (toy or not)
Re:Suicide? (Score:2, Insightful)
12 seconds is WAY too much time to "be ready to fire".
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm glad it works well for you. In case you were unaware, the US is more than 10 cities whose names everyone knows. For those of us who live in the great expanse that is the midwest, the nearest police officer is often many, many miles away. Yes, I'll sit around waiting for that police officer to arrive while a burglar who decides he doesn't want a witness bludgeons me to death with the crowbar he used to break in, that sounds like a great idea!
No. My safety in my home is my responsibility, plain and simple. If I can facilitate it with my Tokarev or HK91, so be it.
Your choice of the phrase "wild west" is interesting; much of the midwest and west *is* still quite sparsely populated and effectively "wild."
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
What about an individual's right to defend him/herself? Call the cops. It works very well for us.
Which is a good and noble concept... except that the police are under no obligation to provide protection to any given individual. See Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981). Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third woman, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30 minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs they saw that in fact the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers." The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen."
Or Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005). Jessica Gonzales had a restraining order against her estranged husband Simon limiting his access to their three children. He abducted them, and Gonzales repeatedly phoned the police for assistance. Officers visited the home. Believing Simon to be non-violent and, arguably, in compliance with the limited access granted by the restraining order, the police did nothing. She sued the Castle Rock police department and won a judgement of $30,000,000. By a vote of 7-to-2, the Supreme Court ruled that Gonzales has no right to sue her local police department for failing to protect her and her children from her estranged husband; the local officials had presented a history of court decisions that found the police to have no constitutional obligation to protect individuals from private individuals. In 1856, the U.S. Supreme Court (South v. Maryland) found that law enforcement officers had no affirmative duty to provide such protection. In 1982 (Bowers v. DeVito), the Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit held, "...there is no Constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen."
It works very well for you? Try suing the police for failing to protect you if you get robbed, assaulted, or burgled, and see just how much responsibility the courts say the police actually have to protect you.
Re:Some people watch too much TV (Score:3, Insightful)
...but accidents happen.
This isn't an accident. This isn't "whoops, I tripped and bumped into a ladder and accidentally caused a guy to fall and die." This is "whoops, I left a loaded gun unattended within reach of a child." This isn't an accident. This is criminal negligence, at a bare minimum.
... well, it's just sad. Pathetic and sad.
You're right. Accidents happen. This is not an accident. To dismiss it as an accident is
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
We have two simple gun rules in my house:
That's it. They have unlimited gun privileges in my presence, so there's no fascination. As a result, none my kids are particularly interested in them.
Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want to punish one parent, might as well punish both. Honestly, I wouldn't let them sit in jail - as parent post said they are both probably in a world of hurt right now, if they cared at all about the child. I'd put them in parental counseling though, and remove the 1 year old to a responsible relative for a while until the parents were over their grief and ready to resume care. There is little worse than being in the position of being a child, especially one so young who needs a lot of care and attention, in a home which has just lost a loved one. Even the death of an older adult can cause parents to suffer from depression and stop properly caring for their kids; losing a child is immeasurably painful and can cause serious issues with caring for other dependents.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
What additional lesson will criminal charges add to the lesson he already learned?
How does such punishment and taking the father away along with his income improve the family's situation?
I understand that in the USA correctional system = punishment + retaliation + sadism + exploitation, but even then, who's retaliating in this situation? He is also the victim. His child was killed.
Don't follow your logic.
Should be punished, should be shamed, should be burned... Not constructive.
Re:Suicide? (Score:1, Insightful)
You guys arguing about gun safety and parental responsibility miss the main point:
A gun is a machine DESIGNED TO KILL other humans, period. For a gun to shoot someone it has to be in the home in the first place.
Do you really need a KILLING MACHINE in your house? Are you planning to KILL? Is that how you define your life? I want to be ready
just INCASE I have to KILL SOMEONE.
WHY HAVE A GUN at all?
First off if you look at the REAL risks in life statistically what kills the most Americans?
under age thirty? --> automobile accidents
over age thirty? --> heart attacks (lay off that junk food).
Go after the REAL RISKS.
"Self-defense is commonly cited as a reason to own a gun. This is the explanation given by 20 percent of all gun owners and 40 percent of all handgun owners contacted for a household survey conducted in 1979." (Decision-Making Information, Inc., Attitudes of the American Electorate Toward Gun Control, Santa Ana, California: Decision-Making Information, Inc., 1979).
But research has shown that a gun kept in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a member of the household, or friend, than an intruder.(Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay. "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearm Related Deaths in the Home." The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. 314, no. 24, June 1986, pp. 1557-60.) The use of a firearm to resist a violent assault actually increases the victim's risk of injury and death(FE Zimring, Firearms, violence, and public policy, Scientific American, vol. 265, 1991, p. 48).
Just in case you missed it: 43 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO KILL A MEMBER OF THE HOUSEHOLD OR FRIEND THAN A INTRUDER.
So when you bring a KILLING MACHINE (aka Gun) into your house you increase the chance that someone gets KILLED.
Besides that: If you need to carry a concealed weapon for safety what does that say about your society? It's like the lawless wild west.
What drives some one to such desperation that they are ready to invade other peoples homes and steal?
What would drive you to do it? Would you steal to feed your children? Would you do it if you have NOTHING to lose?
What would drive you to drink? What would eventually lead you to take drugs?
You want less crime? Have better education, social assistance, drug rehab treatment programs, healthcare etc..
Then you have less Druggies, or other desperate people and SURPRISE: less violent crime.
Besides don't you have proper law enforcement and policing?
Here Canada if you have problem you call the police and they are there in less than 10 minutes, its better to have professionals that have adequate training to use guns safely..
Realistically its not about response to one incident, its about prevention. Since most people here co-operate with Police and police have adequate resources, the result is there is very little violent crime. With proper gun control laws the police here can send anyone that has an unlicensed gun to jail for up to 2 years... this gives police a tool against known drug dealers and the like...
The result is that people that are known to police and cause trouble, either don't carry guns (and cant shoot people as a result), or if they do they can be busted and locked up (and are).
If you don't want people KILLED in your house get rid of the KILLING MACHINEs.
Hey don't take my word for it. Just ask the British... not even all of their police carry weapons:
"Unlike police in other developed countries, the vast majority of British police officers do not carry firearms on standard patrol; they do however carry Extendable "Asp" or fixed Monadnock PR-24 batons and CS/PAVA spray." (wikipedia)
Before you get mad... Make sure your gun is locked up. Otherwise you might murder someone instead of just arguing with them.
Yes I'm Anonymous. But not stupid. People that are dumb enough to keep guns in their homes, are dumb enough to use them when not warranted, and I don't want to get shot.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
That really is an exceptionally ridiculous situation to be in. If you cannot call police and expect that they will come, why bother with a police force? I'm well aware that sometimes it may take an hour for the police to arrive because there is some distance involved, but to not bother coming at all..? Another reason not to visit the US, though at this stage I don't really need more reasons.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
That.. isn't even close to any of the rules.
Relying on a manually operated switch to protect you from poor firearms handling is dumb. A manual safety is a part of a machine, and like any part in any machine, it can fail to function.
This is on top of the fact that Glock, Walther, Smith & Wesson, Heckler & Koch, Beretta, Sig-Sauer, Taurus and Steyr all make pistols without safety switches. And that isn't even an exhaustive list of manufacturers.
Re:Suicide? (Score:2, Insightful)
Something on their badge says: "to serve and protect"
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
By your reasoning every parent who has had a child drown in a pool or at the beach should also be in jail for life.
Any person whose child who gets into the chemicals under the sink (even with child locks on cabinet doors) and dies should be in jail for life.
There are 310 million people in the US, statistically someone was bound to die from a fire arm this year. It sucks it was a 3 year old, but it happens. Some other idiot is statistically going to die falling off a ladder. With such a large sample size your bound to have outliers that suck.
Re:Suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
Please detail all the circumstances when you have needed to defend yourself from your government.
We're waiting.
You are aware of how the USA came into existence, right?
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw [examiner.com]
Captain Jerry Quan, the Commander for Precinct One, where the Wafflehouse is located, confirmed Matt Brannan's story as one in which the open display of a pistol deterred a well armed robbery crew.
Re:Suicide? (Score:3, Insightful)
Never rely on a gun safety. (Score:2, Insightful)
There are many rules of gun safety, or rather, many ways of stating the same general principles. A good one is to assume the safety's gonna fail some unknown day, and treat the gun accordingly.
Gun safety involves a lot of redundant measures. If somebody hands you an unloaded gun, you check for yourself to make sure that it really is unloaded. You keep the safety on if you're not shooting it, even if you've already checked the gun's not loaded. You don't point the gun at anybody you're not gonna shoot, even if you've checked it's unloaded and you have the safety on. You don't put your finger in the trigger unless you're gonna shoot right then, even if you've checked that the gun's unloaded and the safety's on. And so on.
So you really shouldn't be asking why the safety wasn't set, because it doesn't matter. You should be asking what happened with all of the other safety precautions that should have prevented this.