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PlayStation (Games) Sony Games Apple

Valve's Newell Thinks PS3 Needs To Be "Open Like a Mac" 348

Posted by Soulskill
from the open-like-something dept.
Eraesr writes "Apparently Valve boss Gabe Newell thinks the PS3 needs to be more of an open platform, drawing a comparison to Apple's Mac platform. In an interview with 5BY5.TV, he said he would like to see the PS3 be 'open like a Mac' instead of being 'more closed like a Gamecube.' 'Platform investments, like the Mac, are difficult because you have to be aware of what direction that platform is moving,' Newell said, referring to the firm's recent move onto Macs with its titles and distribution service Steam. 'We need to target platforms that do a better job of looking like where we want to be in a few years.'"
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Valve's Newell Thinks PS3 Needs To Be "Open Like a Mac"

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  • Yeah (Score:5, Funny)

    by Monkeedude1212 (1560403) on Friday May 21, 2010 @04:52PM (#32299630) Journal

    Open like a Mac, I get it,

    kind of like, Secure like a Windows?

    • Oh, and before I forget, if you think it's good to be Open like a Mac, why did it take you the better part of a decade to port all your games over?

      Not that we're complaining, but I had to put up with years of Mac users complaining about it.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by dov_0 (1438253)
      Apple took some of the best of open source - and made sure they screwed with it enough that they could claim it as their own.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Oh, and enough to make parts of it refuse to work right, regardless of one's prior UNIX knowledge. I'll never forgive them for the "Internet Sharing" setting, which regularly fails even between a pair of Macs...then when you start trying to troubleshoot it you find that while natd is running, there's no natd.conf ...those bastards have wrapped it up in some proprietary binary object. Thanks Apple; you've successfully reinvented the wheel, and made it square to boot.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          It sucks, but you need to make your own natd.conf, kill the process and restart natd with your configuration: sudo /usr/sbin/natd -alias_address x.x.x.x -interface en0 -use_sockets -same_ports -unregistered_only -dynamic -clamp_mss -f /Users/username/natd.conf

          Obviously you'll need to put the whole thing into a script and run it after the system is up.

          Your mileage may vary...

        • try this [apple.com]
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by figleaf (672550)

      Mac and Open together in a sentence is a Oxymoron [wikipedia.org].

    • Re:Yeah (Score:5, Insightful)

      by forkazoo (138186) <wrosecrans AT gmail DOT com> on Friday May 21, 2010 @05:46PM (#32300284) Homepage

      Open like a Mac, I get it,

      kind of like, Secure like a Windows?

      You realise that the comparison is against a PS3, right?

      Besides, the Mac is a fairly open platform. You can get kernel code and Webkit code under a genuine open source license. Good luck getting Windows NT kernel code and IE rendering engine as open source projects. Apple's developer tools are built around gcc, and the default shell is bash. Apple provides X11 support out of the box, so you can build an app for a Mac, and trivially move it to another platform if you choose to rely only on open standards.

      Apple as a company may be psychotic, but I don't know why people insist the Mac is so hilariously closed.

      • by Daniel Dvorkin (106857) * on Friday May 21, 2010 @06:47PM (#32300908) Homepage Journal

        There is no possible way that parent post deserves a troll mod, except in Windows-fanboi land. What he says is exactly right: in certain ways -- specifically, code availability, which is exactly the sense in which "open" is most often used on Slashdot -- the Mac is indeed more open than Windows. As another poster points out, hardware-wise Windows is more open, but think about the subject of the story! Sony isn't going to start writing OSs for other companies' game systems any time soon, but more information about the PS3 would help draw developers to the platform. The type of "openness" which Valve is calling on Sony to practice with regards to the PS3 is exactly the type of openness Apple practices with OS X, not that which Microsoft practices with Windows.

    • Ubiquitous like a Zune.

    • Re:Yeah (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Johann Lau (1040920) on Friday May 21, 2010 @06:41PM (#32300868) Homepage Journal

      No, open like a Mac compared to, say, a Gamecube. None of you going ROFL have actually watched even the first five minutes of the interview, have you? It's boring, it's annoying, but at least it clears up that misconception. None of you (so far, as I'm posting this) are actually discussing the subject of the article, anything he actually says.

      Oh, and just to make it clear, I think Mac sucks (1mousebuttonLOLOLOLkthxbai) and Valve is a bunch of greedy, uninspired whores. I'm not defending them, I don't care at all about this.... I just think y'all are tards too, for talking to/about strawmen exclusively. Cheers.

  • by _pi-away (308135) on Friday May 21, 2010 @04:53PM (#32299646) Homepage

    Sorry, my irony detector is overloading.

    • by Mashiki (184564)

      Mine is pegged to 11 good fellow. Actually I think it just hit 12. So with that let me just say, WE'RE ALL DOOMED! Doomed, doomed, DOOOMED!

    • Sorry, my irony detector is overloading.

      You might want to look around for a large ferrous source then, because it's not the Mac setting it off. The Mac is a very open platform. The iPhone is a rather closed platform. Unlike other vendors, you get choice in what degree of openness you prefer when choosing platforms to purchase.

  • open : mac
    Gabe : thin
  • by idontgno (624372) on Friday May 21, 2010 @04:58PM (#32299718) Journal

    C'mon. It may be a legitimate comparison on the continuum of platform comparision.

    "Sony, you've made the PS3 so closed and restrictive that you make the Mac look like Richard Stallman's promised land."

    • by DMUTPeregrine (612791) on Friday May 21, 2010 @05:06PM (#32299806) Journal
      That and the Mac is pretty open. Darwin is open, and it's not restricted like an iPod/iPad or such. It's more open in many ways than Windows, though closed in some others (locked to apple hardware).
      • It's more open in many ways than Windows, though closed in some others (locked to apple hardware).

        It's a bit better than this heap of flaming dung... well except for the parts that are worse.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by beelsebob (529313)

        It's open in many more ways than that... e.g. Apple wrote a BSD'd compiler for C like languages (clang) which for C and objective-c beats the pants of gcc in almost every way, and is getting *damn close* on the C++ front.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by macshit (157376)

          It's open in many more ways than that... e.g. Apple wrote a BSD'd compiler for C like languages (clang) which for C and objective-c beats the pants of gcc in almost every way, and is getting *damn close* on the C++ front.

          Er, clang/llvm have some grand goals, but so far, they very clearly don't "beat the pants off gcc in almost every way."

          gcc optimizes better, has been ported far more widely, supports many more languages (and of course in cases like C++, is a much more complete compiler -- clang C++ support is still pretty basic), and of course is much more mature. One of clang/llvm's widely touted advantages -- faster compilation -- is shrinking as the compiler grows. clang/llvm's optimization will improve with time, but

      • If OS X is open source, how come nobody's made some modifications to not check for Apple's BIOS, and then recompiled it to run on an IBM PC Clone?

        • Open Source is different than open.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by dingen (958134)
          Because OS X isn't open source. Darwin is though and it runs fine on any IBM PC clone.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          If OS X is open source

          Not "if," OSX has a lot of open source in it. You can download the kernel (named Darwin) and some utilities from their open source website [apple.com]. Another good web page with Apple's open source software information is http://www.apple.com/opensource/ [apple.com] . There you can see what project is being used by the different Apple applications or utilities.

          how come nobody's made some modifications to not check for Apple's BIOS

          Mac's do not use BIOS, they use EFI [wikipedia.org].

          and then recompiled it to run on an IBM P

      • by w0mprat (1317953)

        Mac is pretty open. ... locked to apple hardware

        Is it really still open then? This is the source of the oxymoron. That's a pretty restrictice OSS licence then isn't it? Open source is more than just code visibility. Macs are weakly open.

    • C'mon. It may be a legitimate comparison on the continuum of platform comparision.
      "Sony, you've made the PS3 so closed and restrictive that you make the Mac look like Richard Stallman's promised land."

      And Mac's also known to be mocked for its lack of games over the course of the last, well, 26 years, unlike Apple's closed iPlatforms, which are chock full of games only few years, even months from their introduction, including titles from big companies like EA.

      It's just a really crappy comparison, don't try to rationalize it.

      I doubt Gabe really thinks Sony's management would open up the PS3. Just venting hidden frustrations and a poor marketing shot at their Mac Steam port.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Narishma (822073)

      It still doesn't make much sense. They support the Xbox 360 which is as closed as, or even more closed than the PS3.

  • Geez, Newell needs to stop hitting the burgers. Who has a neck like that? Seriously dude.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by jd2112 (1535857)
      The Big Mac may be the worlds first open source burger. For those of you not old enough to remember, their slogan used to be "Two all beef patties, special sauce(*), lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun" which can be considered the "source code" of the burger. (*) since they never revealed the source to the special sauce the code cannot completely compile as published
  • by Wovel (964431) on Friday May 21, 2010 @05:09PM (#32299840) Homepage

    OSX is the most open operating system Steam currently delivers software for. OSX is the most open of the operating systems with a measurable desktop market share. OSX is the most open platform that runs Microsoft Windows. I could make up about 100 other items. The most important item however is this:

    OSX is the most open platform any commercial software companies are writing consumer applications for.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by h4rr4r (612664)

      There is commercial software on linux, for consumers even. I played native Quake 4 last night.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Wovel (964431)

        Really, where did you buy it? How much did it cost.. Choosing to do a free release of an old game on alternate platform as an experiment is not quite the same thing...It would be like if Steam had only ported portal to OSX and gave it away. Actually know, it does not even quite reach that level.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by dingen (958134)
          In all fairness, a Linux client of Steam is on its way.
        • OSX is the most open platform any commercial software companies are writing consumer applications for.

          Choosing to do a free release of an old game on alternate platform as an experiment is not quite the same thing

          How about a new release of new software on an alternate platform AND providing support with it. From Microsoft no less. [microsoft.com] Too free for you? How about Sybase? They sell linux versions of thier database management software for linux on PPC and x86 platforms.

          How about VMware? They sell virtualization solutions for...you guessed it, linux! Oh, and that brings us to another of your "points":

          OSX is the most open platform that runs Microsoft Windows.

          WRONG. Either you're running windows in a virtual app, or you're not running OSX. OSX itself does not run windows.
          Maybe..

    • by Shados (741919)

      So open I can't install it (legally) on my hardware even though it can work on it. In other news, US laws are easy to read! They're in plain text!

      • OS X = Darwin + Aqua GUI+ other libraries. Darwin [wikipedia.org] is open source. Aqua is not. You can get Darwin and other open source projects like WebKit from Apple [apple.com] at no charge and install them on any computer that is within your abilities.
  • by mc moss (1163007)

    Yet he has no trouble putting his games on the 360...

    • by Wovel (964431)

      Those ports took almost no investment...

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by tepples (727027)
      Xbox 360 is more open than PLAYSTATION 3. Microsoft has the XNA Creators Club and Xbox Live Indie Games, a business model that is (coincidentally?) similar to Apple's later iPhone developer program and App Store. True, retail games and major-label download games aren't XNA, but does Sony have any counterpart to XNA?
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Narishma (822073)

        XNA doesn't matter to developers like Valve, so the parent's point still stands. The Xbox 360 is as closed as the PS3. The only reason they support it is that porting their games to it is very easy since it uses the same technologies as Windows.

  • Mac!=iPhone/iPad (Score:5, Informative)

    by UnknowingFool (672806) on Friday May 21, 2010 @05:32PM (#32300136)

    Judging by the sheer number of responses so far, many people here can't tell the different between iPhone/iPad and Mac. They are both made by Apple. Macs run OS X which is based on BSD. Mac OS X is composed of Darwin sub-system, Aqua GUI, and other libraries. Darwin is open source and is available under a BSD type license. Aqua is proprietary. Mac OS X runs on a lot of open source software such as BIND, bash, openSSH, etc. The Mac versions are available freely at http://www.opensource.apple.com/ [apple.com]

    The iPhone/iPad uses a variant of OS X. It is not open source and the release of Apps is tightly controlled. Developers are free to release to their own devices but must abide by Apple guidelines if they want to publish in the Apple Store.

    Valve is referring to Macs not iPhone/iPad.

    • by jedidiah (1196)

      > Judging by the sheer number of responses so far, many people here can't tell the different between iPhone/iPad and Mac.

      Mebbe they have shell scripts for their iPhone too...

  • I bought a PS3 with the intent to learn to program it. Even put on the version of Ubuntu for it. Then I found not only did the graphics access perform terribly (software framebuffer with no hardware acclerated rendering) but that was never going to change unless you paid US$10,000 and accepted their conditions of distribution. Double suck when despite Sony crowing about supporting Linux they actually never intended to make it truly open. Looked at XNA for Xbox360 but they had control over how you distribute
  • Since they've decided not to allow other operating systems I think the PS3 should be closed, like an anchor.

  • Sony (SCEI) is paranoid about security. Everything technical about the PS3 is on a need-to-know basis.

    From a marketing / developers point of view, I agree it would be nice to have something like XNA so more developers could write/port their games, but due to the above, that is not going to happen. By keeping the system closed to even authorized developers they are going after the assumption that they will keep the quality of games high. In contrast to the DS which has a ton of "shovelware" games.

  • BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Damn! That's some GOOD Joker Venom you have there Gabe!

  • by Gizzmonic (412910) on Friday May 21, 2010 @06:08PM (#32300510) Homepage Journal

    Remember the horrible Orange Box port for PS3? That was farmed out to EA, but it was still with Valve's approval. It reflected poorly on Valve, and Newell's been in PS3-bashing mode ever since then. Rather than admit that his company is too small to devote the resources to develop on PS3, he blusters about how crappy it is.

      No, Gabe, other developers have been developing on PS3 for years and there are some great games for it. You already develop for Xbox 360, another platform that forces you to have the developer's blessing before you can code. Whining about openness doesn't make sense at this point. Feel free to skip PS3 development. Just don't blame the PS3 for your own company's shortcomings.

  • This sounds to me like a "waaah" whine:

    "Waaaah, we're an x86/Microsoft/DirectX platform dev house we don't want to learn any other architectures or tools."
    "Waaah, we want to sell our games via OUR online distribution, not the one Sony has set up for the PS3"
    "But we want to make money selling games for the PS3 so Sony should do what we want...waaaah"

    Sony is probably thinking:

    "Fuck you, Newell, you farmed out the Orange Box port to EA instead of some competent house like Gearbox."
    "The PS3 is our sandbox, our rules, it's the same way with the Microsoft's Xbox."
    "Tying yourself to Microsoft like you have is a mistake. You can make games without Microsoft Tools and on non-microsoft platforms...if you're not a lazy x86 dev house."
    "If the Mac is so open, why did it take you 12 years to release the original Half Life for the platform, Considering that the PS2 version came out in 2001?"
    "How long did it take you to do Half-Life 2...six years? Lazy x86/Windows devs! A sequel should only take 2 years or less. How many Final Fantasy games did Square release between 1998 and 2006? Lets see VIII, IX, X, X-2, XI, and XII."

    I've noticed a few other Windows centric game houses (like Blizzard, and Wild-Tangent) that talk the same way.
    abba

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