EVE Online CSM and Diplomat Killed in Libyan Consulate Attacks 680
New submitter overmoderated writes first with news of an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya. From the article: "The U.S. ambassador to Libya and three other embassy staff were killed in a rocket attack on their car, a Libyan official said, as they were rushed from a consular building stormed by militants denouncing a U.S.-made film insulting the Prophet Mohammad."
An anonymous reader adds: "Sean Smith, a.k.a. Vile Rat, an EVE Online CSM member, and diplomat for the GoonFleet corporation, was one of the four killed in the attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya last night. He was 34. A fundraiser is being organized for his children by the Something Awful forums."
Update: 09/12 21:28 GMT by U L : Ozma from Something Awful mailed in a link to the memorial thread on the SA forums (including details on the memorial fund).
Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
'Nuff said.
vr (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Seriously, EVE Online? (Score:2, Insightful)
He might be known to a lot of geeks who play the game. Stop being an asshole.
Re:They're thieves and war criminals (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:They're thieves and war criminals (Score:4, Insightful)
So, I say from the bottom of my heart, fuck you, Sean Smith. You got what you deserved.
See? This is the problem with radicals; they believe innocent individuals need to suffer for the disagreements of others.
Re:Fundraiser? (Score:5, Insightful)
He was a "diplomat" in EVE Online. In real life, he did IT work for the consulate -- he wasn't a diplomat nor any particularly wealthy, privileged person. He's just an ordinary guy doing IT work.
Don't fall for it (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean...really? You go apeshit crazy, right and kill people over a fucking film?!?!
I mean hell...the guys they murdered weren't even involved in the film.....
Listen to what his friends say about him... (Score:5, Insightful)
...sounds like he was pretty involved in the game.
It also sounds like he was well-loved. Choice notes from the forum thread:
And probably my favorite:
Supercar Gautier:
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:1, Insightful)
We've done worse for a piece of cloth (a flag)
Radicals: (Score:5, Insightful)
"they believe innocent individuals need to suffer "
Often, radicals believe there are no innocents.
They feel that either you must be as militant as they are, or you're just a tool/ally of those they feel are opposing/oppressing them.
In the former case, you're a fighter for their cause and thus a martyr if killed.
In the latter case, you are a part of the problem that needs to be disposed of.
Will you guys ever learn? (Score:4, Insightful)
First it was Afghanistan. You thought that everyone [photobucket.com] fighting against authoritarian Soviets was automatically pro-democracy and pro-human rights; and what's wrong if they speak of Islam and jihad occasionally? Clearly it's only against the bad guys. And so you gave them money and guns and trained them, and the end result was a country where most schools (build by those very Soviets) were demolished and replaced by madrassas, and secular if authoritarian government replaced by fanatics who were stoning women on football stadiums for adultery after they were raped.
(Oh, and don't say that you didn't support Taliban. This guy [wikipedia.org] was no better, and most of his troops ended up in Taliban anyway.)
And what do you get for it in the end? A whole country turned into a giant terrorist training camp that's now working against you, and using those very weapons that you've supplied them to kill your soldiers, and workers that you send to try to rebuild the country. The training camp that produced those people who committed the biggest terrorist act ever in the history of this planet, against the USA.
Then there was Kosovo. Again, "freedom fighters" against a totalitarian regime and all that. Again, a decade afterwards it's slowly growing to be another place where Wahhabism spreads, only this time in the middle of Europe (and also a major drug transit center to boot, to finance the operation). And, again, the chickens are coming [cnn.com] home [wikipedia.org] to roost [wikipedia.org].
Now there's Libya. It's only been a year since the downfall of the regime - thanks largely to heavy NATO military backing of the rebel "freedom fighters" - and we've already seen genocide of the black population, widespread persecuting of Christians, and now this act of outright hostility towards USA and the murder of its citizens and representatives. You can go on at length about how the real, democratically elected government of Libya is liberal and all about human rights and such, but what this incident clearly shows is that they're not a government. They're simply not in control of the country. And people that are in control, because they have guns (that you gave them) and troops and determination - people like this [worldcrunch.com] - hate democracy and human rights with a passion, and hate you because you are representative of that. And you can't even say that they haven't warned you [vice.com] if you were only willing to see and listen...
But, hey, that's still not quite enough jihadis, right? Let's create another breeding ground for them in Syria as well?
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
you realize that jews and christians are doing this same type of crap, right?
No, you are wrong. Jews and Christians are doing EQUIVALENT crap, not the same type. They don't kill people over a film, just over some equally absurd nonsense.
That's religion for you ...
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:3, Insightful)
you realize that the atheists and politicians are doing this same type of crap, right?
Evil is evil and needs no particular reasoning to justify itself, religious, political, financial, or otherwise.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:2, Insightful)
Pretty much. So much for Islam being a "religion of peace." And you know what really grinds my gears? The people who trot out the old line about how this kind of atrocity is a "perversion" of Islam. It's shit all of the sort. Anyone who has actually read the Hadith will know that it's full of hundreds of exhortations to attack and kill infidels. We're not talking one little quote tucked away in the middle of a parable here, we're talking about the thing being riddled with explicit instructions to destroy infidels. These murdering mucksavages are just following orders handed down to them by their imaginary friend in the sky.
The Cold War was peace and harmony compared to this Islamic fundamentalist shit. This is fucking terrifying.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Extremists feed of each other. A jewish extremist makes a film ripping on Muhammad, and islamic extremists go on rampage, thereby proving jewish extremists' point to the world, serving his propaganda purposes.
Maybe we can found a new country, Extremistan, and put them all there to kill each other while the rest of the world enjoys peace and pluralism.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
you realize that jews and christians are doing this same type of crap, right?
You can say anything you want about Jesus and no Christian will kill you. In fact, Jesus specifically told us you would and that we should do nothing. So say anything you want about my religion. It's okay. I forgive you.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:4, Insightful)
you realize that jews and christians are doing this same type of crap, right?
You can say anything you want about Jesus and no Christian will kill you. In fact, Jesus specifically told us you would and that we should do nothing. So say anything you want about my religion. It's okay. I forgive you.
Congratulations, you at least have an idea what it means to actually be Christian (more to it than forgiving transgressors, obviously).
Sadly, very few who claim to followers of Jesus Christ are as wise to the tenements of the faith as you seem to be. Therein lies the issue.
Re:Will you guys ever learn? (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, none of the real-world stuff is as simple as you portray it. Libya started as a very real effort by the general population to overthrow a pretty scummy dictator. There were three options: support the government (thank god we learned our lesson on supporting dictators for some very fuzzy "strategic" goal), do nothing, or support the people fighting the government. We did pretty much the best thing we could have: even the fight by taking out heavy armor and artillery, remove the threat of aerial assault, and let the Libyans sort out the rest. We're seeing the results of the do-nothing approach in Syria: a prolonged war that is getting more violent as time goes on, with more extremist elements joining the fight on both sides.
Libya is a pip-squeak compared to what we're getting in Syria.
I hate to break it to you, but sometimes the best we can do results in a situation that is only somewhat of an improvement over a total catastrophe. And yet, it is still better than to just sit on your ass. What is it with people who think that if something's not perfect, nothing should be done?
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
you realize that the atheists and politicians are doing this same type of crap, right?
Actually, I don't. I have never seen an atheist kill anyone because of a film with Muhammad in it.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder if you love those "peace loving christians" when they plant bombs and shoot up a summer camp [huffingtonpost.com]. Or do you make really weak generalizations just when it comes to muslims? The reality is that the muslim terrorists are a tiny minority of the billion+ muslims in the world. To label every muslim a terrorist on par with Al-Qaeda merely does three things:
1) It legitimizes the terrorists as the only real muslims.
2) It legitimizes and fuels their calls for a culture war by calling for a culture war yourself.
3) It pisses off every muslim who just wants to get on with their lives, and turns them against you. Which, incidentally, is again what the terrorists are hoping for.
So congratulations for doing exactly what the muslim terrorists want you to do. What a good little puppet you are.
Re:Will you guys ever learn? (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, none of the real-world stuff is as simple as you portray it. Libya started as a very real effort by the general population to overthrow a pretty scummy dictator.
Not quite. It started as a very real effort by a part of the general population to overthrow a petty scummy dictator ruling in the interests of and supported by the other part of the general population. That's why we eventually called it a civil war, not an uprising.
But even then, so what? If someone revolts against a dictator, it doesn't mean that they are any better themselves. The problem is that Americans seem to assume that everyone revolting against a dictator is a champion of freedom. In practice, more often than not, they just want a different kind of dictatorship.
We're seeing the results of the do-nothing approach in Syria: a prolonged war that is getting more violent as time goes on, with more extremist elements joining the fight on both sides.
There was no such threat in Libya without foreign involvement. To remind you, the loyalist Libyan army has all but steamrolled the rebels by the time NATO intervened. Syria is different because, on one hand, the pro-government side is much more of a minority (it's basically Alawites and some Christians vs the Sunni majority), and, on the other hand, there are already a bunch of states around that are supporting both sides of the conflict - Iran backing Assad, and Arab states backing the rebels. That's what prolongs the conflict.
I hate to break it to you, but sometimes the best we can do results in a situation that is only somewhat of an improvement over a total catastrophe.
And, pray tell, in what sense is the situation in Libya "somewhat of an improvement" over what was there under Gaddafi?
That was the whole point of my post. In none of the cases that I've outlined, the situation is actually better. It is, at best, different, and usually worse, especially when you look at it from western perspective. So why get involved to help one bad guys against other bad guys, and get burned in the process? More importantly, why keep repeating that?
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently not enough to police the crazies though.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:2, Insightful)
I've never seen a Muslim kill anyone because of a film without Muhammad in it
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
and no Christian will kill you.
Thus setting yourself up to play the "No True Scotsman [wikipedia.org]" card. Meanwhile, a certain mosque in Tennessee keeps getting burned down because the folks who use it deny Jesus was the son of God.
Re:Seriously, EVE Online? (Score:5, Insightful)
It touches something everyone who plays online games wonders about.
How deep is that connection with your friends you know only in a virtual way? Does their impact on the virtual world you played in matter in any sense? Is changing a game world that 300 000 people play in and enjoy a real accomplishment? If he coaches little league or his kids football people would talk about that, even though it impacts a lot less people and is not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Hundreds of thousands of people have been touched, in a small way, by this guy, he was part of their little special society.
It's also strange, how our relationships with friends are changing. My friends who I play online with at least, are more likely to remember the far too many hours we spent trying to kill the first entrance trash in molten core, on the first night there were 40 people on our server who could even get in than some event where people went bar crawling and didn't quite make it home. We raided molten core, other people broke into an abandoned cement factory.
I'm 32, 4 years ago a friend of mine from public school passed away due to brain cancer. I had known him for 23 or 24 years in total (from junior kindergarten until he passed away). We did lots of stuff as kids, riding around parks on a bike, trying to meet girls, failing miserably with girls, we sat around his house and played games, we went to universities, fell in a river at a yearly university party etc. That stuff, when people gave speeches about it at his funeral is something everyone could relate to and laugh about. Including that time we accidentally set fire to our old school, his father sold school equipment and after graduation he was working for his dad and someone botched an installation... Know one really knew (or was inclined to talk about) how he'd spent the last couple of years of his life trying to help organize a guild in a video game. He couldn't be around people IRL a lot of the time due to treatments, but he could log on and help organize 40 or 50 people to get their shit together and have fun. I guess that's important, insofar as having fun is important. But it's not something people in their 40's and 50's and older can really understand or relate to generally.
Eve particularly makes this a story because it's a single world. Whatever my deceased friend accomplished was confined to one server of a cluster of servers of hundreds of thousands or millions of people all doing the same thing, in their own little instances walking past each other. But in Eve, one person can change the world for everyone, good or bad.
Notice how there's no story about the other 3 people who were killed, 2 other staffers and the ambassador. The ambassador is getting lots of coverage on the MSM. That was his 'clique' so to speak, and that will be his mark on the world is as an ambassador trying to manage US business. This was an IT guy, who played games with his friends. There's nothing wrong with that, but how we think about peoples contribution to the world is changing, this poor guy has the unfortunate distinction of getting a lot of press for it, but he's certainly not the first.
When George Lucas or Hironobu Sakaguchi, or Sid Meier pass away people on the outside of their properties (Star Wars/Indiana Jones, Final fantasy, Civilization) will understand them as the creators of those things, even if they never played the games or watched the movies. Game worlds are different, because the people who created the rules of the world, and the people who make the world aren't the same. This guy made part of the world that was created by the people at CCP, and that 300k other people play in. I don't think society has quite figured out how, if at all, it wants to try and recognize that.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the U.S. kills for resources
... and somehow you think this is the same thing?
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Try insulting the Party in China.
Re:Will you guys ever learn? (Score:4, Insightful)
Because instability breeds more instability. And the crazies are already killing unrelated people. Unless, of course, you mean that everyone east of the US is crazy, and should just annihilate themselves.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:1, Insightful)
Do tell when the Jews ever killed anyone over silly shit like this...
Oh that's right, never, you're simply an antisemite and you wanted to include Jews into your religion bashing as well. You do realize that Jewish is ethnicity not religion right? Judaism is religion. So you don't even know anyhing about Jews. But here, I'll enlighten you, as Jews have been doing for the world since they emerged:
Einstein ... Every other greatest Scientist, Musician, Author... Is a Jew.
Feynman
Opheheimer
Now do tell what your race did? We Jews compose 0.3% of this planet's population, yet we won over 30% of Nobel Prizes, Field Medals, Chess Masters, Wrote the best and most renowned and thought provoking books... After all, this is why you hate us, because when you look into the mirror... you know that you'll never reach our level... it's not in your genes.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:4, Insightful)
What does God say that isn't said through the voice of men? What we are seeing is a bunch of psychopaths seizing the unbreakable and unquestionable chains of God to lead a bunch of uneducated and disgruntled peons into violence. Don't think we're any different. You look at any major Holy Book and you can pervert it to violence if you so choose. There were Christian fundamentalists at Waco and the Branch Davidians who thought that God wanted them to prepare for the end of days. It's only because we have already went through the Crusades and have a relatively well-educated population that we haven't devolved into a theocratic shit state. We already have the TeaTards pushing an evangelical agenda. If our economy really hits the shitter, and we get rid of secular education, we'd be in the same fucking shit show in a few decades. Heck, you can argue that our invasion of Iraq was driven by evangelical neocons who thought they were on a fucking Crusade to tame the infidels, and a hundred thousand civilians died as a result of the invasion.
The government of Libya already apologized. The government of Egypt deployed forces around the US Embassy there to protect it from attack. Eventually, the governments will need to send in their police forces and military to crush these violent uprisings. Other than that, there's nothing the US should do unless it turns out that the governments were actually behind the attacks.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
The Cold War was peace and harmony compared to this Islamic fundamentalist shit. This is fucking terrifying.
Oh please. The Cold War had the potential to destroy human life on this planet. Islamic fundamentalists killed 3000 people with one extremely lucky attack 10 years ago, and a handful here and there ever since.
You're more likely to die on the road because you're too afraid of terrorists (or the TSA, as the case may be) to fly than you are to die from terrorists. Grow a pair.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
"Every other greatest Scientist, Musician, Author... Is a Jew".
So they're like "Ubermenschen"?
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:3, Insightful)
Just like Christians, can't they keep their Breiviks and McVeighs in line? Must be mostly a bunch of crazies right?
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:4, Insightful)
Are you so sure that's what happened in this case? After all, the embassy victims had nothing to do with the film. I've seen Libyan muslims claim that this was a planned attack by anti-American militants (a.k.a al Quaeda) using a demonstration as a pretext.
Even if it was all spontaneous and popular, it's highly likely that the perpetrators have other reasons to hate besides stories about an offensive film.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:2, Insightful)
Jews and Christians are doing EQUIVALENT crap, not the same type. They don't kill people over a film, just over some equally absurd nonsense.
That's religion for you ...
Yes, because being killed by Atheists and Scientists is soooooo much better... because they will kill you over *nothing at all*
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
When has an atheist ever committed an act of terrorism in the name of atheism? Or murdered?
I think you'd be hard pressed to dispute that religious persecution (including state sponsored terrorism and murder) occurred in atheist states governed by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il, etc.
Re:They're thieves and war criminals (Score:4, Insightful)
Furthermore, no amount of verbal or written instigation should make you accountable for the actions of others. You can't force people to do things with words, ultimately it is their choice alone if they will do it or not and they alone should answer for the consequences.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:1, Insightful)
I agree that extremists are the problem, however there is a distinction.
When an extremist commits a crime in the name of Christianity, Christian religious leaders will condemn the action and Christians around the world will mourn the victims.
When an extremist commits a crime in the name of Islam, imams around the world justify the action and Muslims around the world celebrate the deaths.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't buy that. The contents of my speech do not make me liable for the actions of others in response to that speech. It's not my problem if Muslim extremists (and even some non-extremists) are insane enough to react violently to something that offends their religious belief. They wouldn't get away with it here in the US, so don't try to excuse it elsewhere.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:4, Insightful)
... and the implication is that makes Mohammed (and apparently, by association, every Muslim who ever has or ever will live) a horrible person not worthy of attention, right? That's funny.
It certainly makes him someone we should not look to for moral guidance.
Edgar Allen Poe, Lewis Carroll
Both authors, not moral leaders. If you look to the writings of Poe or Carroll for moral guidance you have serious issues.
Rather, it is a condemnation of bullshit double standards and the egocentric asshats who perpetuate them.
Why should we not have two standards for two different things? Authors of fiction are not moral leaders.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:5, Insightful)
We Jews compose 0.3% of this planet's population, yet we won over 30% of Nobel Prizes, Field Medals, Chess Masters, Wrote the best and most renowned and thought provoking books...
Unless you personally are a Nobel prize or a Fields (not "Field") Medal laureate, a chess master or wrote any of the best and most renowned and thought provoking books, you have no right to use the word "we" in that sentence.
After all, this is why you hate us, because when you look into the mirror... you know that you'll never reach our level... it's not in your genes.
Where is the list of your personal achievements? What have you done with what's "in your genes"?
No, they hate us because of useless assholes like you. And frankly, the rest of us Jews don't like you and your ilk either.
Re:Batshit Crazy! (Score:2, Insightful)
Ah yes, the No True Scotsman defense, that's solid.
Sorry guy, but I remember the Atlanta Summer Games bombing, the OKC bombing, and numerous other acts of terrorism and assassination carried out by American Christians during the past 20 years. I'll believe that Christians don't do that shit anymore when they actually stop.
Re:Troll? No, I don't think so. (Score:2, Insightful)
Why is parent marked troll?
Because it never happened.
MOD parent up (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. This is just one of those many threads that bring out all the folks that'll start quoting that Godless piece of bigotry that is www.thereligionofpeace.com, and get modded up by others who insist on believing that all 1.4 BILLION Muslims around the world are terrorists, which makes about as much sense as equating all Protestants with the Klan. I'll probably get modded down just for posting this, but I really don't care...that sort of crap makes me ashamed to be an American.
Re:Batshit Crazy? Movie was a cover... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's blowback. From assets used to achieve para-political military aims, then discarded by the would-be puppet masters.