To Combat Shortage, Nvidia Asks Retailers To Limit Graphics Card Orders (pcmag.com) 212
An anonymous reader writes: If you're a PC builder -- or your aging desktop system is in dire need of some modern upgrades -- you've probably wondered why it's impossible to get a graphics card lately. You can thank the outrageous interest in cryptocurrency for all of this. Since graphics cards mine cryptocurrency much faster than CPUs, an eager community of get-rich-quick enthusiasts are scooping up graphics cards as fast as they can get them. While there isn't much major manufacturers AMD and Nvidia can do about the overwhelming demand for GPUs, Nvidia is at least trying to let retailers know that they should be holding their stock for the company's core audience: gamers, not miners. "For NVIDIA, gamers come first. All activities related to our GeForce product line are targeted at our main audience. To ensure that GeForce gamers continue to have good GeForce graphics card availability in the current situation, we recommend that our trading partners make the appropriate arrangements to meet gamers' needs as usual," reads a translated statement Nvidia's Boris Bohles. Nvidia is suggesting that retailers limit graphics card orders to just two per person, but that's just an idea -- one Nvidia can't actually enforce beyond restricting sales on its website, which it's currently doing. Further reading: It's a terrible time to buy a graphics card.
Good news coming ... (Score:3)
At least HPCs might become more accessible.
Re: Good news coming ... (Score:5, Interesting)
The lesson here is to never buy a used GPU unless you can be sure it wasnâ(TM)t a mining GPU.
Why, exactly? The cards are run at lower wattage, at lower temps, 24/7 - minimal power cycling.
How does that make the card less valuable over time, or more likely to fail? What parts (besides the fans) are going to experience wear&tear?
Re: (Score:2)
Why, exactly? The cards are run at lower wattage, at lower temps, 24/7 - minimal power cycling.
How does that make the card less valuable over time, or more likely to fail? What parts (besides the fans) are going to experience wear&tear?
"Never buy used GPU" is taking it way too far, but that sentiment is still there for discounting their prices. Electronics do experience wear and tear, though not in the same way traditional mechanical parts do. Nothing lasts forever. Capacitors, resistors, diodes, LEDs, even the circuitry itself. Multiple reasons but it all really comes down to chemistry. Take metal whiskers as a particularly interesting phenomenon. For the past 20 years I've been on a 3-5 year cycle where either the performance gain
Used GPUs were bad news (Score:2)
It wasn't until the GTX 660/760 line that we started to see cards from Asus/Gigabyte/MSI specifically designed to fix this (Gigabyte's 'Ultra Durable' brand, MSI's 'Military Grade' and I forget what Asus' was). I ran pretty low end stuff (think GTX 240 ) and only recently got some hand me dow
Re: (Score:2)
Why would they run them at lower wattage/temps (Score:2)
Also, these cards aren't _meant_ to run 24/7. They're meant to run 4-8 hours at a time tops, and those are the really nice ones. nVidia recently prohibited their consumer grade cards from being used in mining and data centers. This is obviously unenforceable, but the theory is that they're trying to get out of wa
Re: (Score:3)
You can't guarantee that the gamer who was using the card didn't stress the shit out of it by overclocking it and running 3dmark for 3 days to 'burn in' the card.
The risk seems the same. In fact, the used mining cards might be more likely to be safe, as the miner at least had longevity of their money-making investment in mind.
Re: (Score:3)
You're still using them constantly, for weeks or months at a time...
So what you're saying is that it's a card that is far more likely to be reliable having a somewhat constant temperature profile without the thermal load cycling that comes from playing games off and on?
Sign me up.
Re: (Score:3)
"Think of all those shitty capacitors and diodes running near their upper specs"
Tantalum caps almost NEVER fail. That's why we switched to them for microelectronics versus electrolytic caps. Diodes have a fairly high thermal operating envelope.
I can tell you don't do any actual electronics work.
Re: (Score:2)
Rebranding opportunity (Score:4, Funny)
Nvidia should put buzz words like "blockchain" and "crypto" in the name/descriptions of a line of video cards they're producing with a high margin and let nature take its course.
"Introducing the NEW Ford Pinto... powered by a BLOCKCHAIN engine with Ford's new CRYPTO door opener and starter mechanism!"
Only one letter off (Score:2)
...with Ford's new CRYPTO door opener and starter mechanism!
Given the Pinto's safety record [popularmechanics.com] you might want to drop the 'O'.
gamer can always buy directly from Nvidia website (Score:2)
you know. They can limit however they want.
Trying to avoid a later crash (Score:5, Insightful)
But what they don't want is for all the $popular_crypto_coin to suddenly crash (and it looks like they're about to) and then flood the market with dirt cheap used GPUs and leave Nvidia in the lurch unable to sell $Gpu->filter('this_year')->get_newest()
By doing this they can continue the high demand for their products and try to smooth out the coming bumps and dips.
Don't forget market share (Score:3)
At the moment neither nVidia or AMD wants to take the risk of ramping up production since it'll be a disaster if crypto currencies collapse. But AMD has a long history of slightly off kilter business decisions.
Re: (Score:2)
I was with you right up till you started using PHP ;)
Re: (Score:2)
I wondered what was going on (Score:3)
Buy pre built (Score:2)
You might also look for a used 970 GTX or even a 660/760 if it's for e-sports, just make sure it's from one of the better manufactures (Gigabyte/Asus/MSI). They tend to put some effort into making the cards more durable which reduces the odds of getting a junk board that's had the solder re-flowed in an oven.
Re: (Score:2)
"They tend to put some effort into making the cards more durable which reduces the odds of getting a junk board that's had the solder re-flowed in an oven."
Everything is reflowed in an oven now days, what the fuck are you talking about. You can even get GPU reflow machines for YOUR HOME at just over $275.
https://precision-pcb-services... [precision-...es-inc.com]
SMHTBH, fam.
Holding Stock (Score:3)
As much as I hate the idea of some criptominer causing a price rise that would affect me buying my gaming card, let me just say Screw you NVIDIA. You have NO say in what we use your GPU for and neither does the shop owners who you're suggesting ... do what exactly? ... Don't sell us the card if we can't pass a multi choice quiz on gaming culture?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Its basically akin to trying to fight ticket scalping.
No it's not. These people are actually using the product for the intended purpose: Embarrassingly parallel computational tasks.
nVidia Clearly Disagrees (Score:2)
You have NO say in what we use your GPU for
I agree but it seems that nVidia may need some persuading [slashdot.org].
Re: (Score:2)
That had nothing to do with the sale of the hardware and just some bullshit EULA statement in a driver download.
Re: (Score:2)
That's all. They aren't asking what you are doing with them, they only ask that vendors limit how many can be bought in an order to improve the chances that more people will be able to obtain them. Their hope is that this makes it easier for their core audience to obtain cards, but they aren't screening for gamers with "gaming culture" quizzes.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually what NVIDIA asked was:
Für NVIDIA stehen Gamer an erster Stelle. Sämtliche Aktivitäten rund um unsere GeForce-Produktreihe sind auf unsere Hauptzielgruppe ausgerichtet. Um den GeForce-Gamern auch in der aktuellen Situation weiterhin eine gute Verfügbarkeit von GeForce-Grafikkarten zu gewährleisten, empfehlen wir unseren Handelspartnern, entsprechende Vorkehrungen zu treffen, um den Bedarf der Gamer wie gewohnt abzudecken.“
They are asking for retailers to put in place "
Re: (Score:2)
I could say the same for implying that they are going to grill buyers on "gaming culture" to validate their purchases. Go to their actual webpage it says "Limit 2 per customer". The vendor part is just a request, the vendor doesn't have to comply.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, Nvidia has already been controlling what is done with their cards for years. Want to do 3D professional CAD on a PC? You have to buy their Quadro line of video cards for a substantial premium. The differences between Quadro and Geforce were minimal, and primarily it was a different driver set.
All they need to do here is what they do there. If you want to mine cryptocurrency, the firmware starting with the newest update will handicap you to 60% speed unless you buy their special "Crypto" line o
Capitalism? Free market? (Score:2)
I always find this kind of stuff funny.
Left hand "LET THE FREE MARKET SORT IT OUT"
Right hand "STOP THOSE DAMN MINERS FROM BUYING OUR GAMING CARDS!"
You can't have it both ways...
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Missing the obvious (Score:2)
They'r
I do not care (Score:2)
Why, the card I have now is 'out of support' as of this year, that means once I go to kernel 4.5+ their proprietary will no longer install. So I will need to use nouveau, which still has some minor issues, but I can deal with the screen 'flashs' I get.
Nvidia promised to help with nouveau development, but so far nothing 'real' was done by them.
So, no more Nvidia for me, going forward I will onoy use video vendors that support open source 100%.
The Microcenter near my house already does that (Score:2)
You gamers ... (Score:3)
Waste (Score:2)
You can thank the outrageous interest in cryptocurrency for all of this. Since graphics cards mine cryptocurrency much faster than CPUs, an eager community of get-rich-quick enthusiasts are scooping up graphics cards as fast as they can get them.
Man what a waste of resources, time and money. Wow. Idiots and their dollars are parted. Does this mean when these people go bankrupt trying to chase cryptocurrency, there will be a glut of used GPU's hitting eBay?
I will say however, it's surprising NVIDIA is saying "Hey limit sales!" instead of saying, "JACK UP PRICES!" I'd probably gone with the latter if it was my decision. People sucking up GPU's for a worthless endeavor? Double the price. Hell, triple it. Make those GPU's really hurt.
Re: (Score:2)
"Hey, jack up prices" is very short term thinking. Gamers are an evergreen market, and it's not worth pissing away the next 30 years of business (if ATI becomes standard instead of nVidia) for a few years of double profits.
Wait for the crash (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Postponed my Upgrade (Score:2)
Boy was I wrong. Now, I was under no il
Re: (Score:2)
There are supply-side limitations to what they can produce. They can't just say, "We'll buy more fries" when the available worldwide potato supply is already gobbled up.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Belgium isn't even a country, so your opinion is invalid. Besides, basic culinary knowledge - nightshades complement each other. Tomatoes and potatoes.
Re: (Score:3)
You'd think they could make something just for miners and cash in.
Even if it's just saving a few cents on the video connectors and calling it a "headerless" card for $5 less.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Why would they ever need to sell them? They'll all be millionaires who won't care about the $50 a used graphics card will be worth by then.
Re: (Score:3)
I buy the cards I use specifically because if crypocurrency flops I can resell the cards at a decent price. The current ROI is about 3 months, if the payout drops after a month and a half I can at least break even.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If you're anything like me, you'd buy it because it's about as good as a new card, but cheaper.
Re: (Score:3)
how hot do you think I run my cards? My fans keep them pretty cool, well below the damaging point. they are undervolted also to save power and heat.
Re: (Score:3)
I don't run mine flat-out like that. I limit my 1070s to 115W or less, and the factory-overclocked cards are underclocked to something closer to stock speed; they're more efficient (hashes per watt) when they're not being pushed like that. I also keep them at or under 60C. If the bottom were to fall out of the cryptocurrency market tomorrow, they'd still have a long life ahead of
Re: (Score:2)
Because it's is believed that mining isn't as stressful on the card. Keeping a constant load on the GPU means the temperature is very stable. It's temperature instability that poses the most risk to damaging the card.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I would, because the reality is that most algos are memory-bound on the GPU, not the GPU itself being a limiting factor. OC the VRAM and underclock/undervolt the GPU is what most miners do. This keeps the card cooler. The cards run constantly, which means far less physical stress on the silicon via thermal variation, as the cards run at a steady temperature. The only thing I'd do is change out the fans, and even then those rarely need replacing unless you do something silly like smoke near the computer.
That
Re: (Score:2)
The miners think themselves too clever thinking that they could get into this hype without risks (selling the beaten cards to suckers), but they will burn themselves with all this "cleverness".
Re: (Score:2)
If cryptocurrency flops, used graphics cards will be a dime a dozen.
Re: (Score:2)
I only wish that were the case.
Bought a brand new Aorus GTX 1080 Ti Waterforce on January 13th. The card failed on January 18th while I was recording a World of Tanks replay for posting to Youtube (that's light load for those who don't know). I have sent it for replacement on January 19th, waiting for the store to decide what to do.
I very much hope they will give me another one because given the current scarcity, the price was good and the card worked great... until it failed of course.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What's that suggestion? Create a custom production run while being unable to fill demand for existing customers and then jeopardise logistics and shelf space all for a short term boom in interest?
Those few cents are worth nothing compared to the cost of your suggestion.
Re: (Score:2)
GPU supercomputing cards are ideal for this:
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/d... [nvidia.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Re:hmmm... (Score:5, Insightful)
nVidia knows two things: First, gamers will need graphics cards. Now, tomorrow, forever. Miners will need a lot of cards now but whether they will still buy any with the next generation is questionable. First question, is cryptocurrency still a thing and second, is GPUs still where the bitcoins are. If they can't supply enough cards to meet the demand today anyway, there is no point in trying to suck up to any customers today. But you might have to see where you get your customers tomorrow.
And second, gamers might have a preference for nVidia today, but they will buy AMD if they can't get nVidia cards for a reasonable price. If the gaming market suddenly gets flooded with AMD cards, game makers will stop optimizing mainly for nVidia. If there are more people playing on AMD than on nVidia, game makers will optimize for AMD.
And who'd then buy an nVidia card tomorrow when there (possibly) isn't a demand for crypto mining anymore?
Re: (Score:2)
That's my take as well.
The last thing nVidia wants is a reputation as being unobtainable, the way most folks looking for a new family car don't even consider a Ferrari or Rolls Royce. Currently they enjoy being the default choice for new builds, and have made their business plans from such a position, so a change to gamers' buying habits would have a huge impact for them.
Of course, nVidia does have other offerings more suitable for the mining crowd, and I expect we'll see more products aimed that way soon.
Optimizing for AMD (Score:4, Interesting)
And second, gamers might have a preference for nVidia today, but they will buy AMD if they can't get nVidia cards for a reasonable price. If the gaming market suddenly gets flooded with AMD cards, game makers will stop optimizing mainly for nVidia. If there are more people playing on AMD than on nVidia, game makers will optimize for AMD.
Which brings the related question :
ever noticed the recent trend in gaming consoles ?
Microsoft :
Since the XBox 360 all the way to the current XBox One X, uses ATI/AMD GPU hardware (and since the XBox One uses AMD CPUs too).
Sony:
Since the Playstation 4, including the current Playstation 4 Pro, uses an AMD APU.
Nintendo:
With the sole exception of the current Switch (which is Nvidia Tegra based) uses graphics core by ATI/AMD, either through acquisition (ATI did buy Art-X who were doing the GameCube's Flipper and Wii's GX) or by putting their own tech (The GX2 core of Wii U's Latte is a Radeon HD derivative core).
Nearly all hardware outputing graphics from gaming console has been some way or another related to AMD.
Chances are, game developer, more precisely triple-A big studio that target multiple consoles in addition to Windows PCs, are paying attention to AMD hardware optimisation.
(Though, due to the diverse jungle of graphical APIs. it doesn't necessarily translate into things applicable directly onto PC with AMD GPUs)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I believe that would require an open architecture, and other than the early PS3, there are no other consoles that have an open architecture. Beyond that, the console makers don't want currency mining done on their consoles, because they only break even on the consoles and they make all their money by licensing the games. If a console is used for mining, it will not be buying any games or in other words, it will make no money for the console maker (Sony or MS).
Re: (Score:2)
Right, except that regardless of your means or scale, every piece of hardware inside every Xbox 360 and Xbone are DRM matched, so you can take it apart, but you can't do shit with the hardware. The software is also DRM locked down, such that only software from M$ with the proper DRM keys will run on the console. It is basically an expensive brick unless you are playing M$ approved games (disc purchase or online store). Sony is the same way. They even got sued for locking down the old PS3s and taking awa
Re: (Score:2)
They're probably not powerful enough to be worthwhile for mining, just powerful enough to handle their intended task. On top of that, they're locked down so that you can't throw your own software onto them.
Re: (Score:2)
ever noticed the recent trend in gaming consoles ?
AMD doesn't provide drivers for game consoles -- they just provide the hardware. AMD's drivers have been a source of anguish since they were ATI -- and don't even try to use their Linux drivers. Most of what they do nowadays is optimize for a few current/upcoming flagship titles -- at the expense of stability of anything else.
AMD has some of the best computer/electrical engineers in the world. However, you need decent software engineers in order to win the P
Re: (Score:2)
Came here to say the same. It makes sense for the leader to keep their core customers happy and thus not switching to the underdog, but it seems win-win for AMD.
Not forever (Score:2)
nVidia knows two things: First, gamers will need graphics cards. Now, tomorrow, forever.
It is entirely conceivable that at some point we may not need them. For example, the Intel Phi (Knights landing?) or whatever it calls itself now is an attempt by them to put several hundred low power x86 cores into chips. While this has been going on long enough that I'm not sure it is ever going to really work it is conceivable that some technology like this could result in hybrid CPU chips both high and low power cores that could be switched between processing and graphics usage depending on the needs o
Re: (Score:2)
Except AMD cards are also very low on supply and high on prices because they are quite efficient at mining (bang for buck).
In fact, their Vega 56 and 64 have been impossible to find pretty much since launch, and when you do find them, their prices are ridiculously high because miners are willing to pay them. Their RX 580 and 570 are doing no better either.
Re: (Score:2)
The 580 and 570 SUCK for mining. The 480 and 470 do better from what I'm reading and hearing.
Re: (Score:2)
nVidia knows two things: First, gamers will need graphics cards. Now, tomorrow, forever. Miners will need a lot of cards now but whether they will still buy any with the next generation is questionable. First question, is cryptocurrency still a thing and second, is GPUs still where the bitcoins are. If they can't supply enough cards to meet the demand today anyway, there is no point in trying to suck up to any customers today. But you might have to see where you get your customers tomorrow.
And second, gamers might have a preference for nVidia today, but they will buy AMD if they can't get nVidia cards for a reasonable price. If the gaming market suddenly gets flooded with AMD cards, game makers will stop optimizing mainly for nVidia. If there are more people playing on AMD than on nVidia, game makers will optimize for AMD.
And who'd then buy an nVidia card tomorrow when there (possibly) isn't a demand for crypto mining anymore?
Well said. I believe this is exactly the calculus that Nvidia has also done.
Re: (Score:2)
That's one of the fears. The other is turning people away from PC gaming and back to the console.
Yes, you get more choice, and higher quality graphics with a PC. But when the graphics cards are hard to get and being marked up $200 over MSRP, while over the Christmas shopping season PS4s were available for $200.
And that's not taking the RAM prices into account. When I built my PC six years ago, RAM was $20 for 8GB. It's now roughly $100 for 8GB, with 16GB kits running just under $200.
A few years ago PCs were
Re: (Score:2)
I expect it to be worse.
If bit coin prices fall further, to a point where the cost of the Cards and power doesn't make it worth it to mine bitcoins. Then there will be a glut of Cards on the market, being sold a used for below market price for a new one. Then to make it worse, these cards may have been heavily used under maximum strain for long periods of time, so Gamers getting these used cards can have a card with a shorten life span, decreased performance, or have bugs appearing, from a burned out part f
Re: (Score:2)
Look, another fella who has no idea what he's talking about.
Why not document yourself before unloading a truck full of wrong conclusions based on incorrect assumptions?
NVIDIA has the tools to Stop Miners (Score:3)
nvidia doesn't want their cards to be sold at 200$ above mspr and they get nothing rather than the usual.
Actually, I don't think that it is because NVIDIA does have the tools to stop it and it is a tool they have already deployed with a specific exemption for miners: the driver license agreement. They recently changed the license terms to forbid usage in a "datacentre" except for "blockchain processing". If they really wanted to stop the miners they would not put in that exception and would, at least attempt, to ban all datacentre usage. This would massively drop demand and allow them to release a "miner car
Re:hmmm... (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
I was under the impression that GPU's were too feeble for miners these days, the real action was using ASICs.
Am I wrong?
Those do okay on cost and efficiency. In a quickly dwindling market, I think I would prefer the power necessary to generate BTC faster.
Re: (Score:2)
Except ASIC miners way outperform GPUs, on the order of terahashes per second versus GPUs gigahashes per second, which means ASICs are far better than GPUs for bitcoin mining.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
No,
But that didn't stop people with nothing but a a panning pan to rush to California over a century ago hunting for gold. While they needed mining equipment to really be successful.
Unless you are the few that got into bitcoins early on. You are not going to make it rich off of them now.
Re: (Score:2)
"But that didn't stop people with nothing but a a panning pan to rush to California over a century ago hunting for gold. While they needed mining equipment to really be successful."
Actually, no, they just needed to know how to LOOK for the gold. Most claims in California never produced because gold simply didn't exist in any sort of commercial quantity in that location, and the majority of miners never bothered to check soil samples first, they went "Iron patch! Start digging!" and the rest is history.
I fin
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Hoss, you and I are in the same boat. I was looking at a nice 1070ti. Last week the thing was $500 now its like $900. But some advice. Wait it out. If you can get by with your 660GTX for a few months and see what happens. Don't by some card off ebay right now. Odds are it has been worked hard and will fail soon any way. Not worth the trouble.
Re: (Score:2)
a) - that's illegal. I think "colluding" is the term?
b) see a) - because if both major players decide similarly and obviously against customer's freedom, it's illegal.
c) there are multi-year ongoing contracts with board makers prohibiting this specifically. Also buying 2 or more and having them not work if they're separated is a retarded idea. What happens if one fails? Also, 30-day delay? Are you fucking kidding me? If I want one for each of my PCs, what then?
Jesus, the crap that some minds excrete...
Re: (Score:2)
I haven't even thought of that, but yes, good point.
Re: (Score:2)
Opening a brand new semiconductor fab is hideously expensive and takes years. There's a reason they haven't done this already. If it was cost or time effective, they would have done it by now.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, and that.
Re: (Score:3)
This sounds like they have a manufacturing bottle neck in the supply chain.
They could ramp up production but they know the demand is just as much of a bubble as cryptocoins are. They don't want to be left with empty factories when it bursts.
Re: (Score:2)
Supply can be an issue, but there are other factors that come into play that I've heard about. Apparently DRAM had a rather large increase in price recently which is creating an issue for board manufacturers.
Then there is the issue that AMD/Nvidia remember what happened last time there was a big increase in the price of crypto currencies and then a huge drop off. So they are rightly fearful of such a thing happening this time because they have to place orders for more GPU chips months in advance. So they wo
Re: (Score:2)
Bitcoin GPU mining has been unprofitable for nearly 5 years or so.
But there are many other cryptocurrencies out there, many of which are not based on Bitcoins SHA256 proof of work that are still profitable to GPU mine and won't see ASIC support any time soon, if ever.
I believe the most common one right now is Ethereum, but there are likely others.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Mining is a requirement to secure the blockchain -- without large amounts of compute work, the chain is vulnerable to attack. As far as "tulip prices", it's supply and demand. For Bitcoin to be a medium of exchange, it has to see widespread use, and there are (potentially) only 21 million -- if it succeeds, each full coin is going to be crazily expensive. But you don't need to buy a whole coin, portions are fine. Currently you can buy a "bit" (A millionth of a BTC) for around a penny.....
Re: (Score:2)
Currently you can buy a "bit" (A millionth of a BTC) for around a penny.....
But how much will it cost in transaction fees to ship that "bit" to your wallet?
Re: (Score:2)
People who got into mining in October before card prices skyrocketed again likely got their ROI 1-2 months ahead of schedule because of the bump in value across all cryptos in November/Dec.
People getting into mining now *might* have a problem hitting an ROI in 6 months due to the high cost of cards, or another spike in value could make them all profitable by March (assuming they hold a percentage of their mined coins).
Re: (Score:2)
There are now algorithms that Nvidia is inherently better at (Zcash)
An Nvidia 1050 isn't spectacular, but it's efficient enough that a rig of 6 of them can still bring in $200-$300/mo.