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Games Entertainment

Linux Unreal Tournament Status Update 141

Posted by Hemos from the blame-blame-thank-you-ma'am dept.
slothdog writes "Brandon Reinhart of Epic Games has updated his .plan with some more info about the open-sourcing of Unreal Tournament for Linux. Specifically, it will be available under the Artistic License and coordinated through SourceForge. A little snoop-work will lead you to the project's page. Yummy. "
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Linux Unreal Tournament Status Update More

Linux Unreal Tournament Status Update

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  • The open sourcing of a commercial project that's selling well and was recently released... sounds like they've 1-up'd ID. Suddenly I have an urge to go buy UT and get the linux binaries...

  • "Teach Epic about open source projects. If this goes well, we'll probably look into releasing more source in this fashion"

    it is great to see that brandon reinhart is betting on open source. I really hope to see more projects opened this way.

    jaime g. wong

    ps: FIRST POST!!! :)
  • unreal tournament open source?

    that's the best new's i've heard today, U.T being one of the finest games i've ever seen.
    but what i wonder is will we get cheaters like what happen when quake1 went gpl?
    just something to ponder
  • Well, it's not exactly the same as giving out the code for the engine itself. Don't get me wrong, it's still excellent.. Just don't compare the code they're releasing for UT to what id released for Quake1.
  • I'd love to see that whole engine open-sourced it's looking dam good.
  • Riiiiiight... They're 1-up'ing ID how? Epic isn't releasing the whole game Open Source, the .plan even said so. It's nice that they're OS'ing some of it, but it's hardly free software.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • Generally it's possible to cheat whether it's open source or not. I'm not talking about single player cheating, there's almost always cheat codes for that. Remember Diablo and Bobafett? If not, run a search on them and see.

  • What amazes me is the forward thinking going on by Epic on this. I'm sure it is one person who has been pushing this but none the less. They didn't have to open ANYTHING up. Myself, I was just happy that it was available for linux at all. Kudos to all involved in making this an option much less a reality. And yes I realize that the engine itself isn't going to be opened (just yet ;>).

    This begs a deeper point. Notice that Brandon states:
    We don't
    have any plans to release the engine proper (certainly not until
    all our licensees games are finished)

    I wonder if more companies will do something along these lines as id did. When a technology becomes aged in a certain sense, release the source to help further the game scene. Releasing source like this could foster an intrest in younger developers who might not have thought about development before. Didn't borland/inprise/nameofthemonth opensource an old IDE not to long ago?

  • a little late for the first post thing, but nice try :]

  • UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!! (Score:4)

    by Foxpaw ( 1561 ) on Tuesday December 28, 1999 @10:30AM (#1438226)
    All of UT is not being open sourced. The engine is still closed. What is being open sourced is certain portions like the Mesa Renderer, the Glide Renderer, the Audio Libraries, The X Renderer and the X Launcher.

    So while it's a step in the right direction, it's not exactly the bliss that everyone thinks it is. Still, being my favorite game right now, I'd really like to see the Mesa Renderer completed so I can play it under Linux.

  • anything is incomplete unless it's open-source or under the GPL
  • Yeah, there's a lot of things that I'm sure we'd all like to see open-sourced, but get real it's not going to happen. Selling "support" for Operating Systems is one thing, but for games? Forget it. If someone thinks of a way to make money off free games, I'd love to hear it... And the street-performer-protocol doesn't count.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • I know that UT uses the Loki Installer (I know this because I bought UT the other day). I have been jumping through hoops to get it installed. I finally figured it out, after downloading multiple tarballs and RPM's. The (current) install is unfortunatly a bit hard.

    Nothing that the average Linux user cannot handle, as we are used to "doing it ourselves". (I am still miffed at GT for not allowing Epic to include the Linux binaries on the CD).

    I just hope that the installation is refined like Quake 3 Arena's. (note to Enlightenment users, for some reason the current version of UT does NOT run under E, the demo does, but the full version does not.)

    GreenMarines sourcing of these libraries should make it much easier for the community to code more Mesa support (this I know is obvious).

    Remember, if you buy the game (please do!) mark on the registraion card in very obvious print (red works well) Purchased for use with Linux as there is no place to mark your OS of choice.

    Let the folks at GT know we are out here. :)
  • only parts of UT are being open sourced specifically these libraries as it states in Brandon's .plan
    I plan on open sourcing the following libraries:
    XDrv
    XMesaGLDrv
    GlideDrv
    Audio
    XLaunch
     who is better ID or Epic Games is still very debatable.

  • Why does this sound bad to me? (Score:4)

    by Frac ( 27516 ) on Tuesday December 28, 1999 @10:36AM (#1438231)
    From what's said so far, it seems to me that they aren't opening up their entire engine.

    It almost sounds like Apple opening up parts of OS X so the "open source community" can hack away and improve the sales of their commercial product.

    And with a little imagination, you can parallel their intentions with Sun - they want to have the advantages of open source without the disadvantages, which are: control of code, and loss of commercial value.

    The Unreal engine has made lots of money in terms of licensing for Epic Games - I wasn't totaly surprised that they didn't release all the source. But do notice that the most prized and valuable code that makes the Unreal engine tick is still locked up away from everyone else.

    Why? I think Brandon explains it fairly clearly in his .plan:

    1. To improve the quality of the Linux port of UT. I'll admit that I simply don't have the time to spend on this port. Disclosing the source gives everybody a chance to make the code better.
    I'm not trying to sound bratty and trying to whine Epic into releasing everything (not that it would work anyways ;), but I don't understand why we should hack for Epic for the same reasons why we shouldn't hack for Sun.

    now everybody get to work and make the linux code better, so Epic can sell more engines!

    Frac

  • I know you are trolling, but... (Score:3)

    by FascDot Killed My Pr ( 24021 ) on Tuesday December 28, 1999 @10:36AM (#1438232)
    RMS doesn't say we should call Linux "GNU/Linux" because of the license (GPL). The reason he says that is that, while the kernel is Linux, most of the rest of the OS is GNU tools (i.e., written by and/or donated to the Free Software Foundation).

    Since Unreal presumably doesn't use GNU tools, there would be no request to add to the name.
    ---
  • I've been playing it fine for the past few weeks (first the demo, then the retail w/ downloaded binaries). What I want to see fixed is the damn "doesn't work under E" bug, though I grow more fond of Sawmill as the days go on (sorry to go offtopic there)

    Point being, I think that baby-steps are important. You're dealing with a company that isn't about to just leap from one paradigm to another.
  • Doubtless that cheaters will come. Cheaters are like vultures to a carcass. They will appear but given the fact that many people prefer Q3 over U.T. and U.T is fairly new, it should take a fair amount of time for them to have a real effect.

    I myself prefer U.T. over Q3. (I am lucky enough to have gotten both for Christmas)

  • Clarification (Score:3)

    by Corrinne Yu ( 121661 ) on Tuesday December 28, 1999 @10:40AM (#1438235)
    Clarification.

    Silly.

    id/Carmack has always done that.

    Epic is "opening" the game mod interface, not the underlying rendering libraries.

    Quake/Quake II/Quake 3 Arena have always done that. Probably in a few days, after Carmack has cleaned up his code, final Q3A game mod headers and interfaces would be posted.

    (Then have fun and lock yourselves into a room. :) )

    OTOH, Tim Sweeney's ZZT is one of the earliest "open" mod "engines" (OK, so it is a 2D text-character based "engine") engineered with the plans for public/open expansion. This precedes Doom, and the Doom wad community.

    P.S. Tim/Brandon/John should post these clarifications themselves here.

    Corrinne Yu
    3D Game Engine Programmer
    3D Realms/Apogee


    Corrinne Yu
    3D Game Engine Programmer
  • I have to agree... Still, it's actually a slightly better job than ID has done. (i.e. releasing portions of the engine itself, beyond the gameplay mod-author-food code)

    I'd have gone out and bought UT if they'd released the source to their networking code - now THAT needs some serious improvement! (It blows chunkss compared to even the original Quake 1 - I get better gameplay over a modem with Q1 than I do with UT on a cable modem!)

    Now I would LOVE to see this happen with other companies. (c'mon - you KNOW you want to play Wing Commander on Linux, even the original one! :) Even though it probably WOULD run under Dosemu...

    But the renderers and audio portions are definately one thing that stands to benefit a lot from open source... Even if there aren't serious bugs, there's the issue of what happens when new rendering and audio APIs, etc. come out. Note that the original GLQuake was unfortunately quite 3Dfx-specific, to the point where using it with a standard GL driver was a ROYAL pain in the ass. That reminds me, have to download the new code. :)
  • This is a really good thing for UT. Not to bring up the endless UT vs Q3 debate but I've been sensing a lot of anti-UT sentiment among the Linux/Slashdot community that I just *DONT* understand. I tried to get UT working under Linux and it has been a real *pain*, and I've not found a lot of help, just a lot of "UT sux, get Q3" from most of the gamer-linux guru's I know. I'm hoping that while this isn't exactly open source (some of the libs for 3d will be opensource, according to what I read from the .plan) it will endear UT to more of the linux community.

    In my opinion these are both REALLY good games. UT for the moment is the winner in terms of variety and cooperative play (my personal favorite variant), but I imagine the Q3 mod community will be churning add-ons out real quick.

    Q3, of course, has the better "deathmatch", where they have always excelled. And the rendering and graphics are definitely better than UT. Regardless, I really dig both of these games, and hope more people with not be biased one way or another. Its just a game people.
  • Unreal's "mod" code has (I think) always been out since day one. It's some sort of scripting language (UnrealScript?)

    They've one-upped id here, at least slightly, in terms of what they've released in their engine. id did NOT release their renderers and audio libraries.

    Of course, UT's network code is what needs improvement the most, as I mentioned in a previous post. (If this is "vastly improved", then the original Unreal must've been horrific!) - that wasn't released. :(

    Don't take this as saying that I don't support id at all - They've got a LONG history of doing this, while Epic is probably only doing this because they have to match id or UT will be blown out of the water by Q3.

    I'm definately buying Q3, and after this development, I'm reconsidering UT.
  • I've been playing it fine for the past few weeks (first the demo, then the retail w/ downloaded binaries). What I want to see fixed is the damn "doesn't work under E" bug, though I grow more fond of Sawmill as the days go on (sorry to go offtopic there)

    Do you have a Voodoo card? The Glide Renderer works fine, I have a TNT2, the Mesa Renderer segfaults on me. Oh yeah, and Sawmill rules :)

    Point being, I think that baby-steps are important. You're dealing with a company that isn't about to just leap from one paradigm to another.

    Oh, don't get me wrong, I think what they're doing is great and Brandon should be commended for helping them take these steps towards open source. I hope everything works out for the better and that they take a few more steps in that direction. I was really just trying to point out that while the original news article made it sound like the the whole source base to UT had been open sourced, it was really just certain libraries.

    Anyway, congratulations to Epic and Digital Extremes for an awesome game and for having the balls to try something new.

  • > Now, I need a few recommendations. Can anyone
    > recommend a good GUI to cvs? Or should I learn
    > the command line interface (it seems
    > tedious, but I'm used to SourceSafe)?

    Argh. What has the world come to?
  • What with all the UT v Q3A threads which I do not read.

    It would be real fun after both UT and Q3A release their API interfaces for mod in short near future.

    Would like to read msgboard peer reviews analysis pro con of UT v Q3A "script" mod API interface, from coding, programming, app development, modding, and even language theory and design perspective.

    "Lang" discussion of UT v Q3A is the truly more interesting "versus" conversation we can have on the 2 products.

    Corrinne Yu
    3D Game Engine Programmer
    3D Realms/Apogee


    Corrinne Yu
    3D Game Engine Programmer
  • when did id release the whole source to q3arena?
  • because he likes to take credit for other people's work. That is my point.

    Please pass the kool-aid.
  • if you want an open source game, look at Quake 1. Despite the provacative headline, only peripheral parts of UT is being opened up. But to say that this is truly revolutionary is a bit too much. No major game company will open source their latest games.
  • Cheaters will always be around, whether a project is open or closed-source. Look at all the cheats that have been around for Quake 1 and Quake 2. Quake2 is closed source, yet it has had numerous aimbots (ZBot, Zorbot, RATBOT), transparent walls (an ill-advised revision of Metabyte's WickedGL driver), radar scanners (ZBot), illegal power-up timers and graphics hacks (VSE Timer, Nitro/Xania proxies), etc. While I don't play Unreal Tournament, it would be naive to believe that someone somewhere with time on their hands hasn't already hacked up a cheat for it, as well.
  • They've one-upped id here, at least slightly, in terms of what they've released in their engine. id did NOT release their renderers and audio libraries.

    id didn't have to release their renderers and audio libraries, because q3a was designed to be platform-independent to begin with, and they have more competent Linux coders working for them. Brandon admitted in his plan that he released those parts of the code because he couldn't make it better (work more properly), and hopes that someone else can fix it for him.

    They've got a LONG history of doing this, while Epic is probably only doing this because they have to match id or UT will be blown out of the water by Q3.

    ditto. but their "grace" in opening up parts of their code seems like a wolve in open source clothing to me. Frac

  • What "other people's work" is RMS trying to take credit for?
    ---
  • This is a question I once tried to get posted as an "Ask Slashdot" - what does the Linux commmunity want from game developers?

    For instance - it's pretty hard to release the entire commerical game as Open Source, and expect it to make money. I agree with RMS's "Free Speech" aspect, but, also realize that it's a business for making money. (I've got my own little game company, looking at doing more and more recently...) How should a game developer make the ballance between Open Source, and the business of making money based off of entertament value of the software produced?

    Is there a good solution for game developers who want to start supporting Linux, who want to 'do the right thing' and start letting people get access to the source, without loosing tons of cash over it?

  • Re:So, Waddaya Want? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I have thought about this "problem" myself. The only answer that I could come up that I thought was semi reasonable was, that you as a game developer are creating a whole game...not just the game engine. What that whole game includes is the game engine, art, music, levels, documentation, etc etc. So you box the game and sell it on retail shelves and make your cash there. Open Source the engine and put it up for download on the net. There might be cons to this whole idea for example competition using this engine you spent a lot of R&D $$s on and making a better game. But then you gotta make sure you have a good design team to make a kick ass game.

    Open to ideas on this.

    Kow

  • Unreal tournament is NOT being opensourced. Read the .plan and you'll see that only certain parts are. (the game engine isn't, along with most of the rest of the game).
  • Linux.

    GNU is a cult. They recruit the young and impressionable. They are mainly college students who can't afford to buy software, so they think GNU is great. Free, Free, Free.

    Then the members of the cult follow blindly what RMS says. Evey Slashdot story is followed by the standard "RMS is right on" subject lines. I will follow RMS and listen to everything he says. Until he pushed the GNU crap on the Linux name, no one called it that. But the mindless ones, they don't care. What every Tricky Dick says must be.

    Meanwhile, these same people laugh at ZDNet for buying into what Bill Gates says, without realizing that they are just as mindless as the drones on ZDNet with regards to Windows.

    Then, the college students go out into the real world and get jobs (at closed source companies of course), and they are replaced by a new crop of GNU heads.

    Like I said, pass the kool-aid.
  • When you say "Linux", do you refer to the Linux kernel or the Linux "Operating System"?
    ---
  • cult ramblings.

    Linux is the operating system. GNU products make up a small percentage of the software in the distribution.

    Pass the Kool-Aid.
  • One thing I've looked at was for 3D based stuff, just using the Crystal Space 3D engine. I put whatever I need that it doesn't alread support in there. I benefit from not having to develop and engine from scratch, and Crystal Space benefits from the stuff I add. Then I suppose the only thing I'm worrying about the rights to will be the actual gameplay, and the datafiles (art, music, levels, etc.). And of course, the upside is, it's nice and portable to just about everywhere.

    However - that does mean a section is still closed - the actual gameplay (the 3D engine only does so much for you.) And that's only for 3D stuff. Any good 2D solutions out there that I don't know about?
  • Looks like the gaming engine world is starting on the slippery slope to the degenerate stage of nit-picking over the merits of each gaming engine. However, I would like to point out that it would be a worthwhile endeavour for the gaming companies to define a compatible API/script language/whatever so that other people can develop smarter AIs/bots/whatever that are portable across multiple gaming generations. One particular advantage I can think of is that it allows more persistant player development in that you can build up a character (let's face it, people can become attached to a persona) and allow them to retain them across the different releases. Plus I can see possibilities opening up in terms of new wrinkles.

    Speaking of new wrinkles, after observing the recent Quake client look-ahead crack, I've always wondered what tactics would work on a precog (effectively what a client with perfect future knowledge is).

    LL
  • GNU products make up a small percentage of the software in the distribution.

    A few questions:

    1) "small percentage" counted how? Number of packages? Lines of code?

    2) Which pieces of software in a distribution count as part of the "operating system" and which count towards "applications". For instance, I'm assuming Netscape Navigator isn't part of the operating system. How about X? How about "tar". How about fdisk?
    ---
  • In light of Carmack's current comments on Quake 1 and creating a closed source client/server verification to prevent cheating, I think its just fine that they are not opensourcing the entire engine.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that opensource is a great thing, but not EVERYTHING has to be open-source. Perhaps Epic will opensource UT at some later date, perhaps not. But, it IS their code, and it is their licence, hence they can do with the code what they see fit.

    The true beauty of GreenMarine putting the source out is that we -the linux community- will benifit by having the game improved for us (and by us). The other benifit, is that as UT improves on the Linux platform, more people may think about trying (or switching to) Linux.

    Still, having part of the code opened is a wonderful thing. Heh, now if we can take this code and make it faster/more playable than the windows version.... MUAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
  • been sucked into the cult.

    A few days ago, several GNU heads almost admitted as much. It took some coaxing though. That was after a lot of "You don't understand.", "We know the truth", and other things that cults say.

    The fact is that there is no such thing as GNU/Linux, no matter what your "leader" tells you.

    What flavor kool-aid did you get?

  • Re:Why does this sound bad to me? (Score:4)

    by emerson ( 419 ) on Tuesday December 28, 1999 @11:22AM (#1438261)
    The comparison with Sun is profoundly unfair.

    Sun's SCSL can be simplified to what you describe -- hack on our code so you improve our product for us, and no, you can't use the code for anything outside of our product. That's the reason it's caused such an uproar, and is not considered properly 'free' or 'Open Source(tm)' by most folks.

    Epic is releasing this code under the Artistic License, meaning you can take this code away and do just about whatever you like with it, separate from Epic's commercial product. Sure, Epic will benefit from contributions to this source tree, but anyone else can also use this source for just about anything they want, including games that compete with Unreal Tournament. This is the Right Thing(tm) for Epic to have done.

    Your objections make it sound as though you wouldn't be happy unless Epic _couldn't_ make money off of others' contributions, and that just doesn't make sense.


    --
  • The person talking in a calm, reasonable voice about facts and only facts? Or the person spouting ill-defined and unwarranted (not to mention offensive: "kool-aid", indeed) abuse?
    ---
  • calm.

    I am not going to argue about something that does not exist.

    Listen, you can follow Stallman off the cliff if you want. It is your life. To come along 7 years after Linux has been out and slap his obnoxious prefix on someone elses work is rude.

    The GPL is already viral, but I can see that the other germs have infected you too.

    If you keep repeating it long enough, you might actually believe Stallman. He is a neo-communist, egomanical glory horder.
  • hehhee - That's one of my 'research projects' I've been working on for my little company.

    Wouldn't it be great if the scripts and API were able to survive across platforms, multiple game versions, and even multiple games? IE - don't like the sniper rifle in UT? No problemo - just load in the Rail Gun from Quake III instead! Nice object oriented scripts that talk to a common API that more than one game uses. It's a great concept - I'm not so sure it's as good in execution.

    The other thing is, that would allow mod developers to create 'universal' mods that work on more than one game. I find that to be a cool concept.

    Of course, there's problems. Games are developed with a specific 'vision' behind them. Importing an object from a previous game or competing game may unbalance things considerably. However, that's not that big of a deal, in a way - in a situtation like online gaming where the server admin determins what stays and what goes, he is allowed to tweak the ballance however he wants.

    The other problem is - even with a common API, how does that determine what the real effect of a weapon is going to be in future generations of games? IE - the new monster is immune to fire, but, the flamethrower from QIV only passes information in terms of damage, not in terms of fire damage. There's quite a few situations where this would simply screw up. (I've seen ways around quite a few of the issues - problem is, you have to continuously expand the API in an attempt to come up with all situations, or limit yourself to what the API supports in the next game. Both choices suck.)
  • They didn't. What difference does it make? Both Q3Arena and Unreal are games that you have to pay for... So once again I ask: How is Epic 1-up'ing Id?

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • He was.

    He just won't listen to reason.
  • To come along 7 years after Linux has been out and slap his obnoxious prefix on someone elses work is rude.

    Just as I suspected, you have no clue.

    Some of the work Stallman is "slapping his ... prefix" on is 15 years old. How can that be, Linux started in 1991? Exactly the point.

    You see, the FSF has been working on a free operating system for quite a while. They have nearly all the tools they need (compilers, utilities, libraries, etc) but they lacked a kernel. Oddly enough a few years ago there was a kernel that was lacking everything else. Just like Reece's Peanut Butter cups they got together. Unlike Reece's, though, the package bears the name of only one of the members.

    As for the other nonsense you emit, I have no comments except that you clearly don't know the meaning of the word "viral".
    ---
  • the mantra.

    You cut and pasted that from gnu.org

    At least if you are going to be brainwashed, change up the words.

  • If you don't like Stallman/FSF/GNU why don't you boycott them? Or do you want to use the tools with one hand while flipping the finger with the other?
    ---

  • the greenmarines posted this E problem as being the first bug that needs fixing, he pointed out the likely culprit also, check the sourceforge page.click on the bug link [sourceforge.net]

  • Like I said, I use Linux, and all the tools that come with it, whoever makes them. I am sure that some of the software I use is made by bigger jerks than Stallman.

    I don't object to the finished product. I object to the preaching from cult leaders.





  • I did not mean to upset the leaders.

    BTW, great interview.
  • Yeah,

    maybe I spoke too soon.
  • The "silly" part is *not* in reference to Epic/Brandom/Tim/et al.

    It is in ref to all the "id is not good enough", and then "epic is not good enough" posts.

    When id has been "opening" their latest interfaces very soon, when epic has been doing open engines before doom, etc.

    I am as tired of ut sux q3a sux posts as the next guy.

    I frequently fwd my epic /. posts to tim. If he/epic is offended they would have let me know.

    P.S. Many people not from 3D Realms have already "clarified" the "status" of the "Prey" engine and other 3D Realms projects in public many times, thank you very much. :)


    Corrinne Yu
    3D Game Engine Programmer
  • Jerry Pournelle... I'm pretty sure he's never written any software, but he wins my Jerk of the Millenium award

    Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking. [lemuria.org]

  • hehe ya ;) exactly my thoughts

    oh but have a look at [linuxgames.com] if u didnt do that already and check out that old article about the plan to persuade Westwood into Open-Sourcing Command & Conquer1. Now THAT would be something cool to see happen.

    Definately worth a look (and maybe even an e-mail)

  • no way....The GNU cult is expert in twisting words like freedom until your head spins and you pass out from the sheer lack of logic.
  • Dude, SourceSafe's interface is slick. In Windows I settle for WinCVS when I'm working on my own projects. WinCVS is pretty creaky, but it's very satisfying to be able to instantly see which files I've changed (icons!), click on them and commit the changes. Maybe GUIs aren't your thing, but I appreciate never having to memorize or look up command-line arguments. BTW, the jCVS [ice.com] interface looks good and KDevelop [kdevelop.org] has some kind of CVS support.
  • http://www.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=99/12/21/2 210251&cid=374
    Corrinne Yu
    3D Game Engine Programmer
  • umm i forgot the link LOL

    www.linuxgames.com [linuxgames.com]

  • >I'd have gone out and bought UT if they'd released the source to their networking code - now THAT needs some serious improvement! (It blows chunkss compared to even the original Quake 1 - I get better gameplay over a modem with Q1 than I do with UT on a cable modem!)

    Maybe you are thinking of the origional Unreal? My experience with UT is completely different, the computer that I run it on (not my own) is a PII450 with a 56K Winmodem, and no 3d card (ATI RagePro). I have no problem and the gameplay online is very smooth, the same cannot be said for Q2 on the same machine which is unplayable online. UT does not appear to be sensitive to the winmodem or the V.90 protocol which have caused problems with programs that require low latency connections.

    YYMV
  • "The true beauty of GreenMarine putting the source out is that we -the linux community- will benifit by having the game improved for us (and by us). The other benifit, is that as UT improves on the Linux platform, more people may think about trying (or switching to) Linux."

    This always sounds trite when you hear people say it about Application "X" being ported to Linux, but just last night I was at a friend's house, fragging away at him with the Linux version of UT when another friend of ours stopped by and made a comment of the "Wow! Check out those awesome graphics! This looks like a cool game! Now you're going to try to tell me you're running it on Linux right?" Joking because of COURSE games like that don't run on Linux. Well, we told him it was, he was amazed, and it was one more chip away in his Windows userishness. (He's already jealous of the way we don't have to keep reinstalling our machines any time something weird happens...)

    The moral of the story? I dunno. I guess that having a cool game running well under Linux is probably going to do a lot more for getting people to want to switch than the fact that Apache runs over 50% of the world's web servers.

    -=-=-=-=-

  • A couple notes. (Score:5)

    by GreenMarine ( 74581 ) on Tuesday December 28, 1999 @12:54PM (#1438303)
    Anything Epic releases to open source becomes free software. We won't "sell" the Linux port just as you are not allowed to "sell" a derivative.

    Once I get everything together (tomorrow probably, Tim is here but I'm pretty tired) I'll upload a simple tarball release so people can start playing around. Then I'll work on learning rcs and get that set up.

    I can foresee companies developing games entirely opensource, but still selling a game...the code is freely obtainable, but the content (maps, textures, models) must be purchased.

    I think there is room for open source in commercial software development. I just think that its going to be a while before you see the games industry take up that particular mode of operation.

    Finally, a clarification on what we will be releasing.

    XDrv.so - This handles window creation, viewport creation, keyboard and mouse input, and all the X windows related stuff.

    Audio.so - This is the simple audio library I wrote to mix the sound effects in Unreal Tournament for Linux.

    XMesaGLDrv.so - This is the Mesa render device. It implements the engine's render calls and uses the Mesa graphics lib to draw the 3d world.

    GlideDrv.so - Same as the XMesaGLDrv.so, but it uses glide.

    XLaunch - This executable loads and inits the engine, then starts the main loop. You can actually do quite a lot with this.

    --

    The bottom line is this: I like to play kick ass games. The Linux port of UT is not kick ass. I don't have the time to make it better, so instead of having it languish on my harddrive I'll give it out to anyone who wants it. You don't have to do anything with it. You could take it and write cool stuff and if you want you could contribute it to me. Its all voluntary.

    Yes, it'd be great to improve the Linux port of UT. It really needs work! At the same time, I've been working my ass off to support the mod community. Check unreal.epicgames.com for a fast growing new document on writing mods for Unreal Tournament. I've been working with mod authors and mod teams to get them understanding the Unreal Tournament scripting language. This is another facet of that support.

    There is nothing ever wrong with giving people more stuff to play with. Most of these guys making mods aren't trying to make money! They don't want to sell their mods. They just want to make cool addons for people to play and maybe to get noticed. This gives another way for a programmer to do that.

    Tim responded to an email discussion between Corinne Yu and me. He says that he likes open source because of the power it gives the community to do new things with the engine. He does not, however, like the idea of merging other peoples code back into the engine. I don't mind the latter as long as its on a small scale.
  • Um, that's not true.

    Try using pre-GPL GLQuake1 with anything other than a 3Dfx board.

    It's possible, but trust me, it's NOT fun. This avoids the possibility of that happening. If the APIs change, it's easy to update the renderers.
  • "...Epic is probably only doing this because they have to match id or UT will be blown out of the water by Q3."

    Dunno. I don't want to start any flame wars, because I know everyone will have their own opinions, but my opinion is that I enjoy UT a lot more than I do Q3A. I bought both as soon as they were available mostly because I wanted to do as much as I could to show my support to these companies for supporting Linux, not because I'm some kind of FPS maniac, because I'm not.

    I played UT first, so that might have biased my opinion a little, but after getting a couple friends to play them both too, I'm not so sure.

    Q3A seems to have better overall framerate. Which isn't such a surprise considering who wrote the danged engine. UT seems to have better "playability" for lack of a better term.

    A friend of mine who has now also played both made the comment that "Q3A 'feels like' an arcade game" while UT "feels like" a really nice FPS. Q3A, to me, has some dreadfully boring weapons, it's maps are... well... mostly red, orange and brown, and the bots on the one hand don't seem to be very smart and on the other run around like weasels on speed, making it virtually impossible to hit them.

    UT on the other hand, has a really diverse collection of maps, great weapon selection (and the sounds that go along seem to be better in production quality, too, making them more fun to play with) and its bots in many cases have been hard for me to tell if I was playing a bot or another person. (Granted, not a very good person, but still...)

    I dunno, like I said, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but Q3A really kind of gave me the same impression as the new Star Wars movie -- a lot of hype and then it really was just "OK" for the most part. (Well, ok I HATED TPM, but you get the idea...) Not to say that Q3A isn't fun, it is, but I don't think Epic has anything to worry about Q3A digging them a big hole to go lie down in. A LOT of people are enjoying UT and doing a lot of third-party mods for it.

    I guess I just kind of take exception to that comment in the same way I would take exception to someone saying something like "Well, now that Linux is on the scene, I guess FreeBSD is just gonna die." They're just different and they will each have their fans and personally I'm glad they're BOTH running on Linux.

    -=-=-=-=-

  • So you are a hypocrite.

    You'll use the tools, but won't give the time of day to the methods used to create them. Talk about stupid.
    ---
  • Eh I misread the article. I thought that in the client there was some bit of usefulness. They're not 1-up'ing anything.

  • Never played the original Unreal.

    Is there any significant difference between the UT demo and the full version? The changelogs Epic has on their site don't indicate any vast improvements in networking code between v.348 (demo) and 400 (retail)

    a) I rarely get less than 200 ping over even a cable modem, and i often have that rise to 500+. It's easy to get sub-50ms pings with Q3.

    b) Before you say that Unreal measures ping differently (it probably does) - I get better netplay with a 300-400 ms ping on QuakeWorld than with 150 ping playing UT demo.

    Lag-jumping is evil. (Specifically, you move, only to *poof* back to your starting spot over and over again.)

    I'd buy the full version of UT to see if netcode was improved if I could find a store around here that accepts returns of opened software.
  • Might as well clarify that statment - I was mainly referring to sales to Linux fans who pay attention to how a company treats them and WILL take philosphy into consideration when making purchasing decisions.

    I agree with you on most of your points.

    Quake 3: Kickass engine, both graphically and network-wise. Cheesy artwork, levels, etc.

    UT (at least the demo) Graphically close to Q3. Networking code blows. (Again, I'd hate to see internet play of the original Unreal if UT's code is so vastly improved...) The gameplay of UT demo was amazing in theory as far as weapons/rules/etc, and would have gotten me completely addicted had the networking code not been absolutely horrendous compared to QuakeN where N=1,2, or 3.

    In the long run, Q3 is better. Bad levels/sounds/artwork are easily fixed by mod authors. The serious engine deficiencies of UT are not.

    IMHO Quake2 was id's pinnacle with respect to artwork and sound effects contributing to a rich environment. But I never liked the multiplayer that much.

    QuakeWorld is the king of multiplayer, although Q3 is pretty good. UT would be a killer app if it had QW's netcode. (Some have argued that QW netcode is even better than Q2/Q3 - I'm inclined to agree with them at least somewhat...)
  • OH, yes of course. They are pure evil. All this time, making us think they wanted to port their game to linux they really wanted us to help them make more money by fixing the mesagl renderer, the x libraries and the audio libraries. There is only on question left. What will they do with the billions of dollars they will make from the bug fixes?
  • that is not the code running this site.

    The code that is running this site is not available for download.

    Please get your facts straight before feeding trolls. You might get your hand bit.
  • It's great to see that you are releasing these componants. I own UT and only use linux so it was a dissapointment not to be able to hear music or keep the game running longer than say 5 or 10 minutes. I am very impressed with the engine, but the audio and stability of the game need a lot of work. Hopefully other companies with interest in entering the linux community will be willing to open source the less stable componants of their games in much the same way as you are doing. This will prevent half assed products from entering the market as "linux compatible". Again I commend you on your decision and thank you for the great product.. Even if you did do a half-ass job porting it (j/k I think you did a hell of a job... just wish it wouldn't crashout and fuck up my X, console, and glide)
    Nathan R. Ben-Attar
    "First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
  • Apologies for OT.

    1. Duke Nukem Forever legally, officially, and publicly licenses UT code. There is no sinister ripping off here.

    2. To maximize the glory that should go to Chris H. Nick S. Tim W., the real programmers officially on DNF, I am on a separate 3D engine coding project. The *glory* (and hopefully not blame) should definitely go to the team.

    3. Blame the plot design or the multiplayer coding on me of DNF if you would like, but if you would like to praise the design or the multiplayer, it should go to George B. designer-in-charge and all the DNF designers/mappers and the above-listed coders.

    4. What I write here should not be construed as any information about DNF. George B. and Scott M. are the owners of 3D Realms/Apogee.

    5. It is hostility and reactions such as these that convince me it is wise policy to have media blackouts, and minimal discussion of our game development projects.
    Corrinne Yu
    3D Game Engine Programmer
  • Seems odd to me. I also have a cable modem and I get more than enough sub 100ms ping servers. But I guess cable providers and location can make a difference. I'm in CA and have Cox@Home. The netcode as far as I can tell is great, but I've never played on a server with greater than 300ms ping.
  • lol, when is TF II supposed to be out?
    I've been playing Starsiege Tribes in the meantime. I wonder if TF II will be that good when it comes out or if they just keep changing it and improving it and never releasing it similar to other games mentioned earlier in this thread.
  • > Try using pre-GPL GLQuake1 with anything other than a 3Dfx board.

    Yes, the old GLQuake code is kinda broken. But when I wrote it, the ONLY hardware solution was a 3DFX board for Linux! That was two years ago.

    You can get glquake.glx to work, but you have to screw with it a bit. I was amazed glquake.glx worked since I wrote the glX version without a proper glX renderer (just a Mesa 3DFX in a window hack). There is a glibc version on the Linux Quake Boxed Set from MacMillan.

    Of course, now that we've released the source, you should be able to get glquake.glx running in no time. :)
  • "I'm not trying to sound bratty and trying to whine "

    You are doing both.

    I don't believe that was my full quote. It wasn't a complete sentence that you quoted. Thats for butchering it to make your post sound though.

    heck out projects such as counter-strike for Half-Life and countless mods for other fps games. Opening the code for many portions of this code will allow these same people to expand on their ideas without the limitations of calling a dll.

    I think you're confusing mod code like UnrealScript with Brandon releasing code that doesn't work well under linux. It has more with "I can't fix this, I hope someone else will" than "here's the code to help out mod authors". If it's out there for mod authors, where's the artistic licensed version for win32? I believe you're the one not in the know.

    I'm sure there are people who will also want to play with the unreal linux code.

    Just like how there are people who wants to play with OS X's Darwin code and Sun's SCSL-licensed code. obviously you missed the whole point of my post, which wasn't simply about releasing the source.

    You're being ungrateful. You don't have to use what is given or bitch about it either. The partially open code isn't a command -- it's an offer. Whether people pick up the code and mould it into something usable is another matter.

    I'm not being ungrateful. I'm questioning the intention of their opening up of the code, and the usefulness of that code and its life outside the Unreal engine. Of course, you fail to address that point, and chose to twist and fiddle with my words to turn me into a whiner who wants the whole thing open sourced. If sheep like you who proclaim to be anti-whiners actualy think it's a good thing, then I can imagine other companies following suit soon with their partial-open-sourcing strategy.

  • Funny thing is that if Sun truly opened up their source for Solaris, *except* their kernel, because they intend to sell it, you wouldn't be chiming this sarcastic tune.
  • Hmm... Maybe the retail version DID improve things over the demo...

    Well, it'll be another week or more before I have access to a store that allows returns of opened software in cas UT retail is as disappointing as the demo.

    Even w/o the policy, it's where I'd buy my games - 20% employee discounts rock. :) (Campus Store)
  • Don't blame you. That's the nice thing of UT having an open-source renderer - while people might not see a need for major changes now, who knows what's two years down the road. :)

    I definately agree on the source release issue. I've read enough about the 3Dfx problems and the solutions that even I could probably fix the problem. If someone else hasn't done it, I will once I get back to my good 'ole cable modem. :)
  • I can't speak for the rest of the linux community, but I think UT is a blast. As for getting it to run...tar zxvf the .tgz files in the UT client to your install directory (mine was installed in windows before I found the linux binaries) and rm the UnrealTournament.ini file. Works like a charm.

    -Legion

  • Newton's third :
    Every force or action has an equal and opposite reaction.




    .oO0Oo.
  • Forget Epic releasing the engine as open-source...they get loads of money from licencing it to other companies.
  • Why do hackers ever program for anyone?

    Well, they do it for that 1 special person in their life; themselves ;-)

    If I owned UT, I'd hack at the source, if only to get a few extra frames/sec out of it. Wouldn't you?

    I'd be suprised if there are any coders out there who wouldn't.
  • http://www.unrealcontest.com

    This appears to be a nice use for the open source, as well as the existing UT mod interface.

    Put your code where your bragging is and show how much better at coding than me you are. :)

    I was going to forgo /. forever after the unfortunately anger I unintentionally stirred up towards me, my projects, my gender, my looks, my company, and my company's projects because of my posting here.

    But then I came across this and thought it may be good to share, even at risk of more flames and hatred! (flame retardant on alert :) )

    /. is a hard site to give up. So a few quickies and I would work very hard to quit this site for good. :) (willpower, Corrinne, despite all the nifty stuff here. :) )

    // company, projects hostility

    The last thing I ever want to cause is such great hostility and anger towards my company and its projects.

    I am sorry my personal /. participation causes so much anger. The best I can do is to withdraw.

    Whatever harm and anger I caused I may not be able to take back. But please direct all your hatred at me and not my company and its projects.

    // "prey"

    I started on a rewrite, less than a year ago. I am doing this all by myself.

    Given manpower and time elapsed, this particular coding project is hardly overdue.

    As for "any" tech or spec about the project on the site, it is obviously outdated and incorrect of the current project. It was the "same" spec even before I started at the company.

    Any article (and I came across a few) that claimed to have the latest information of "prey" engine has all been completely erroneous.

    There is little point in my or my company discussing the engine when it is not coming out now, and not affecting your gaming future anytime soon.

    I have been programming on many projects for over 10 years. Unfortunately, it was too long ago when I shipped a 3D engine game, when I was Systems Lead Programmer of the first Spec Ops.

    I did lots of 3D coding (over the Quake engine, unlike Spec Ops which was not licensing) on Anachronox which unfortunately did not ship yet.

    I am quite sure all of you posters have accomplished a lot more than I had, had a lot more experience, and code a lot better than me.

    I merely have great enthusisasm, and lots of love for the work.

    It is true many other games would be completed before my current project. I do not mind that. I am sorry that all of you do.

    // gamer

    I am a coder first, math-nut second. I love games very much after those two.

    I have the same enthusiasm and sometimes fandom for a lot of the great works of gaming all around me. "Fan" or "gamer" wise all of you are probably a lot more 3l33t than me.

    I used to have more time to keep in touch with games. As I spend more years coding, I end up with less time to enjoy these very games.

    Most of you is a lot more in touch with gaming and being gamer than I am.

    // looks

    It is irrelevant whether I am fat. It is only relevant whether you enjoyed my coding before, and whether you will enjoy my coding in the far future.

    Describing my own physical appearance in anyway strikes me as being flirtatious and ungraceful. I would now make such gauche faux pas and say that I am currently a little flabby with a 22 inch waist. I eat badly and code a lot. Most women are probably much more attractive than me.

    Give you more to laugh at, heh? ;p

    // this site

    Originally I had sought at this site some kindredship, some thoughtful friendships and exchanges on math, physics, coding, gaming (but not fandom) and whatnot, without all the mania.

    For a while, I was having that in small doses.

    "Socializing" has always been my weakest skill. I have always been the nerdy geek being picked on and bullied. I didn't survive high school very well (like the katz stereotyped "kids" :) ) and it hadn't be very good for me even now, as obviously evidenced.

    I make horrible "celebrity" or "personality." I am grateful for continual opportunities to allow me to continue to be able to code for games. There are a lot more other people who are better suited (and dress better) at be "glamor gaming coder sexxxy chick celeb" than me.

    I am sorry I angered all of you so very much for being here. Didn't mean to.

    I really don't do this board thing well, and I really should stop.

    P.S. /me return to what I suck less at : coding.

    P.P.S. Go flame more. Or not.
    Corrinne Yu
    3D Game Engine Programmer
  • I don't run UT Retail on a Linux box as a client, but as 3 dedicated servers. I have a total of 36 connections which is well below what we allow our Q2 and Q3 servers. Running a PII 400/256M the main issue I have is merely the CPU and the lack of all available "nice", whence these servers are running - even with as few as 12 total players connected across all three servers. Q2 and Q3 both are at least 50% more efficient. I am going to attempt an experiment this coming week if I can wrangle a couple more IP addresses out of our tight fisted engineering group. I am hoping there will be some relief if not in CPU usage, certainly the seemingly overcrowding at the door on the ethernet ports - even though it is 100BaseT, and the Max Peak throughput is 2 Mbit/s. I am thinking that the timing of packet tx and rx are more critical on multilevel servers, as the inprovements in CPU processing from the game core is less and less likely. I LOVE UT, but I completely refuse to convert my Server to NT just to run it. This would create many more problems than it would ever solve, making note of how poorly it performs everything else compared to Linux - I may have to educe the number of levels running to 2! Winblows is NOT an option for any self respecting Server Admin. my .02 worth HB Shaw@Home servers

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