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Games Entertainment

Infogrames Serves Civ3 Fans With Cease and Desist 226

Posted by chrisd from the bad-europe-bad-no-civ-for-you dept.
janolder writes "According to multiple articles on heise online (German only), the leader of an effort to localize Civilization III for Germany, Kai Fiebach, has been slapped with a cease and desist letter, including $500 lawyer bill from Infogrames Germany. A grassroots effort to help Kai and tell Infogrames off is forming."
"Background: Most European versions of Civ3 are late. With a slated release for March 2002, Kai and a group of Civ3 fans decided to translate portions of Civ3 to German and to make the result available as a set of files to be applied to the US on time for Christmas. Kai informed Infogrames of his effort and even offered to join forces with their localization team if only the game would be released sooner. Sadly, Infogrames reacted by sending Kai a cease and desist letter, alleging copyright infringement. The home page of the translation effort has already been taken down.

The reason for Infogrames' reaction seems to be that Infogrames Germany doesn't make a single penny on the US version of the game sold through Amazon Germany and other vendors."
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Infogrames Serves Civ3 Fans With Cease and Desist More

Infogrames Serves Civ3 Fans With Cease and Desist

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  • I tags (Score:4, Funny)

    by Levine ( 22596 ) <levine@ g o a t s e . cx> on Saturday November 24, 2001 @04:16PM (#2607677) Homepage
    Watch out for those I tags, there, Chris.

    Cheers,
    levine

  • Applied to the US? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Quarters ( 18322 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @04:17PM (#2607682)
    Kai and a group of Civ3 fans decided to translate portions of Civ3 to German and to make the result available as a set of files to be applied to the US on time for Christmas.

    Well, I hope I have time to finish typing this before das ereignet.
  • i think its great that people are pushing forward on things like this (translating resources), however, under most EULA's - reverse engineering or modification is looked down upon.. its unfortunate for the german civ3 translation - but, maybe they should have kept it to themselves (or, setup a private group for obtaining the translated versions)
    • Not in Germany. In the U.S., when you buy software, you actually buy a license to use that software, which allows the software company to impose all kinds of restrictions. In Germany, buying software is no different from buying a loaf of bread (from a legal point of view), so you can do with it anything you like.

      The problem here seems to be that the text those guys are distributing is (c) Infogrames.

      • Not in Germany. In the U.S., when you buy software, you actually buy a license to use that software, which allows the software company to impose all kinds of restrictions. In Germany, buying software is no different from buying a loaf of bread (from a legal point of view), so you can do with it anything you like.
        maybe true, but, you dont go giving your loaf of bread to everyone in the world now? you normally eat it by yourself or your family. they probably shouldn't have released it for public consumption (as i originally said)
        • Sure, we completely agree on this. But the reason that they are not allowed to distribute their patch is that the files they are distributing contain copyrighted material, and not that the EULA prohibits it. E.g., a patch to remove the copy protection would be completely legal.
        • No one said they were doing that. They are doing translations and releasing patches. You'd still need the software in order to play the game.
      • The problem here seems to be that the text those guys are distributing is (c) Infogrames.

        It is?

        You meet someone and say "Hello, sir. How are you today?" and I hear you say that. I think that's a pretty good phrase, so when I next meet someone I say, "Howdy, dood! Howzit hangin, my man?" am I infringing on your copyright to the phrase you uttered initially?

        Same meaning, different words.
        • not the same meaning at all, "Hello, sir. How are you today?" means that you are a well spoken gentleman, while "Howdy, dood! Howzit hangin, my man?" means you are a complete moron with a desperate need to the chlorinated out of the gene pool.
      • Actually, for those of you living in the US, EULAs may be completely invalid in your state. For instance, here in Kansas the law states that if you are not able to see the complete contract (EULA) before paying for the software, a sale takes place and you are free to do whatever you want with the software. However, if you are able to read the EULA before the exchange of money, you are licensing the software and are bound by the restrictions of the EULA. Click-through agreements seem to be bound by this law as well, as long as the above conditions are met.

    • Re:binary modification = illegal :( (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      from the Fireaxis website:

      "One of the enduring strengths of the Civilization franchise has been its ability to be customized by the fans.... Firaxis is very interested in Civilization III having an active mod community, but need to know where our efforts are best spent. Together we can make Civilization III a potent platform for not only exploring factual history, but also your creativity and interests. "

      Apparently having the game in your native language does not apply as someing in fan's 'interests'.

      As the german site linked above states, it's Infogames German division that fears they'll loose money if this voulenteer effort gets the product done before they do - it's all the *same company* people, it's just a different local manager, who wants to make sure he/she gets their bonus so they can buy that new SUV they've been coveting etc. etc. etc. I would understand (and I wouln't characterize the management as I have) if they approached these people, personally, thanked them for their effort, and tried to work out something. It's *obvious* that the german fans involved had this attitude, but the company just reacted with the easiest, most convenient 2x4 they could find. Typical. *end rant*

    • A little history (Score:2, Informative)

      by epepke ( 462220 )

      When Apple released the Macintosh in 1984, the system was heavily based on the use of resources (it still is). Apple's User Interface Guidelines pushed keeping all strings in resources to make it easier for third parties to localize the software.

      Reading these at the time, I didn't experience any cognitive dissonance. I thought that, surely, nobody could object to a third-party's deliberately increasing one's market share, for free. I imagined that EULAs of the future would specify that anyone who made such modifications should submit them for approval by the original author.

      How times have changed!

  • I think one of the problems (Score:5, Interesting)

    by friday2k ( 205692 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @04:18PM (#2607685)
    seems to be that the game is not yet available in Germany and that the effort going on will cost Infogrames a lot of money (the heise article, which, btw, is here [heise.de] says so, too). Also there will be issues with support. And it is there intellectual property. So, by altering a closed source program without permission they stepped over some border line. Wouldn't it be prosecuted here in the US under DMCA?

    - Just my 0000010 cents
    • But Kai and company are not *selling* the 'patch'. It's more of a fan based mod-pack. So there is not intellectual property problems (if those things are actually valid in the first place). The main problem, as you and the story pointed out, is that Infogrames Germany will lose money, because they will try to sell the German version themselves, and receive no money from Germans buying the US version and applying Kai's patch.
    • BTW have the modified files been published?
      if not infogram hasn't lost any money yet, and it would have been a better move for them to exploit the fan's work to speed up their translation and boost their christmas sales instead of undertaking a useless and shameful attack on these guys.
      Well maybe i missed some important point here and infogram's gail is not to make money but to prove the world it can make a release all by itself even though they are slow to it
    • From the article it sounds like the the German company is not going to make any money off of the US version. It would also seem likely that the US company will not make money off of the German version, although there probably is some sort of licensing fee. IAMNATPC, (I am not a transfer pricing consultant) but the licensing fee probably generates less income than a direct sale. Ergo the US company would probably be very happy to have a bunch of translators working for free to increase their revenue.
    • Wouldn't it be prosecuted here in the US under DMCA?

      I don't think so.

      Creating a patch for an existing piece of software isn't nesacarily volating the DMCA.

      It might however be a violation of the license agreement. But that's somthing differnt.
    • Babelfish alters web pages all the time for translation purposes. Are you agreeing that babelfish is breeching Copyright of the page authors?

      Why can't I write a script which patches a software program for translation purposes, how is that a breech of copyright if it requires the original package?

      What is actually happening here is that Infogrames have a revenue recognition problem because they don't know how to run an international publishing company. They're late with a release that fans want, and they are abusing the law and their hard core fan base.
  • Hello. I have made several posts in the last days about a friend who found himself in similar trouble with Sony.

    If someone can recommend a page will more information in English (or even better Japanese ^_^) I will gladly do what I can to help. It hurts me very much to see dedicated fans and hobbyists be threatened and intimidate for doing things that will only benefit the company in the long run.

    I do not wish to see this lawyer paid but if it must come to that I will gladly help do a small bit to assist. I will even pay to assist in the German localisation, assuming that it will continue after this unfortunate incidence.

    Please reply with additional information if it is available. I wish to know more but I have plenty of trouble with English, to say nothing of German ^_^

    R. Suzuka
    • i dont see how you can help in this situation. doing binary modifications is not considered "a good thing" by anyone (how would you like it if someone modified your apps - and, put idiotic phrases instead of instructions)? infogrames does want to release a german version by the looks of it, and, something like this "in the wild" will cause conflicts with users at a later date. could you imagine having to go through support with a user who had an translated german version (as opposed to the official german version)??

      what infogrames should have done, is work with this guy. they have done the translation(s) - and, they are german.. who else is better to do translations to german? infogrames can win out of this if they play their cards right. and, the last thing we need is what happened with the "ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US" episode when translations go wrong.. badly wrong...
      • That is an interesting point. 2 diffrent trasnslations would make tech support a whole lot more difficult. Translation is not easy, and often requires profisinals to do it correctly, how many of us have seen the horrible translaitons of Anime DVD imports or Kung Fu movies?
        I've delt with the Civ3 tech support crew, they have enugh problems dealing with English. While I don;t think that this problem required the services of lawyers, I do see why Ifogrames saw it nessesary to do this.

  • Sorry, But Tough (Score:5, Interesting)

    by torqer ( 538711 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @04:26PM (#2607709)
    Well, I hate to be anti-open source. But CIV3 is copy-written. And one guy (or even company) cannot modify closed source. Even if it isn't for profit. Sid Meier has the right to make his money. And I wouldn't want the German Amazon.com taking my money either. I hate to be capitalist but tough nuts.

    It's a nice gesture to offer to work with the official translation team, but they are probably (hopefully) have the entire process planned out. So it wouldn't be of much help to have some random guy "helping out."

    Besides, even if I had to wait I'd rather have a real version instead of a hacked up patch that comes with no guarantee.

    • As I wrote in my other comment, it's not illegal to modify/disassemble apps in Germany. It's just that those guys are distributing a copyrighted text. In Germany, there are companies which make a living of removing copy protections (dongles, etc.) from commercial software.

    • Besides, even if I had to wait I'd rather have a real version instead of a hacked up patch that comes with no guarantee.

      Excuse me? Have you ever read any software EULA? The official product will come with an equal zero guarantee, and you'll probably get more support from a volunteer effort, since those people actually care for their work enough that they're willing to do it without pay.

      • In case you haven't noticed, proprietary software advocates always forget that clause. How many times have Linux developers been told that someone's not going to use Linux because "there's no-one we can sue if something goes wrong!"? Proprietary software isn't any better. In fact, given the wording of some EULAs I've seen, your attempted lawsuit might give the company grounds for legal action against you, especially if you publicize said lawsuit.


        This is, of course, assuming that EULAs have any legal weight at all. That is, unfortunately, still an uncertain issue, and seems to depend entirely on what judge you get and how informed he is about precedent and contract law. And how much he's been paid off, in America.

        • Although with the DMCA and the new laws that are in the pipeline, it seems those EULAs are fast becoming more and more legally binding.

    • Re:Sorry, But Tough (Score:5, Informative)

      by Rogerborg ( 306625 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @04:56PM (#2607825) Homepage
      • But CIV3 is copy-written

      Translations are derivative works. There is a specific exemption for these in most countries, Germany included, and this appears to be a straight substitution of text files.

      Mind you, this didn't stop the German fans translating Harry Potter being served with cease and desists, so I guess we're back to the old argument that access to lawyers allows you to (practically) dictate what the law is.

      • Derivative works require permission of the copyright holder, at least under Anglo-American copyright law.

        They get separate copyright protection on their own as well - so in effect what you have is a copyrighted article that requires permission from both the person who created the derivative work and the person who created the original.

          • Derivative works require permission of the copyright holder, at least under Anglo-American copyright law

          Sorry, but I don't believe that to be the case for a derivative work that contains a significant amount of original work, e.g. a translation, or curiously a spoken word recording (you need to pay for "performance rights", but then you have sole copyright on the result).

          The problem (as per bloody usual) is that the definition of "significant" is nebulous and very dependent on what the mythical average person would find reasonable, which is why cases like this often result in a lot of money being paid to lawyers - to whom the concept of "original work" is generally anathema, ironically enough.

          However, I'm keen to be corrected. Got a reference? Otherwise it's just my word against yours, which doesn't help the gallery much. ;-)

    • Sid Meier has the right to make his money.
      While it may be correct that he has right to control the distribution of his copyrighted materials, no one has the right to make money. No form of intellectual use rights guarantee revenue, nor should they. Business models go out of date, companies just plain suck, and they lose money. Good.
      [version] that comes with no guarantee.
      Guarantees for what? The translation? The software? You've got to be kidding. I am frankly amazed that I have to remind a slashdot reader how "All your base are belong to us" came to be...
    • It's not some guy, it's some 15 guys. And Sid does make his money, (unless someone uses it with a pirated version), because the patch simply replaces the text files from the American version. And this stupid national market protectionism (this includes DVD region codes) is just plain stupid. And if this goes like SMAC, the official translation will suck. They translated "Mindworms" with "Psycho-Viren". Oh well, I'll have to wait till next year for Civ3 anyways :-(
  • A shame, yes. But not all the world is Free/Open Source friendly.

    This is a proprietary game. The authors do get to say what happens to it, and who can and cannot contribute.

    I find the $500 lawyers bill to be insane though - I mean, seriously, the guy was just trying to help, no?

    Too many lawyers in the world, and too little common sense I think.
    • would have been to first inform Mr. Fiebach that distributing a translation was illegal and only then , if he didn't remove the files, send an official cease and desist with the associated lawyer cost.

      The texts in the game are copyrighted and obviously they cannot be redistributed even once translated. But I wish people would learn to solve their problems without going through lawyers. *sigh*
      • Are you sure that's the case, or are you thinking American law? I remember the US gov't had to add some clauses that distributing copyrighted material without profit was illegal. Perhaps in Germany this hasn't been made illegal. We'd probably need a German lawyer to clear this one up.
    • I find the $500 lawyers bill to be insane though - I mean, seriously, the guy was just trying to help, no?

      According to the heise article [heise.de] (in Krautish, sorry), the $500 bill has been declared void by Infogrames. They still threaten with a $10,000 fine if he won't cease working on the translations and remove all the work done so far from the 'net.
      • Infogrames can't impose fines. Who do you think they are? They could go to a court and sue, but they are wrong about this. These guys are working on a translation patch for people who have purchased the game. Revenue recognition is Infogrames problem, it's not the law's purpose to help Infogrames manage its subsidiaries. Translations don't breach copyright, have you seen babelfish? These guys are effectively running a human babelfish patch over a legitimately purchased game. Infogrames is just using thuggish legal tactics to bully a small guy who can't afford the legal expenses.

        Civ 3 is tedious anyway, I bought it played it once and sold it to a friend who was a Civ fanatic, even he says this version is tedious with flawed gameplay. My advice, forget it and move on, and thing twice before you buy another infogrames game.
  • As an infogrames stockholder (via GT Interactive) I wish this were a non-issue with Civ III being released in Germany (and elsewhere) simultaneous with the American release.

    I cant say the current situation will help their lackluster stock price [yahoo.com]. Perhaps this will spur inforgames to release localized versions faster (and maybe help get some of my money back!)

  • Kai? (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Kai? Isn't he a dead assasin of the Divine Order and last of the Brunnen-G? When did he start programming computer games?
  • Kai was not doing anything malicious. He wasn't try to compete with Infogames, trying to hurt their profits, or even trying to make a profit from himself.

    Instead, he was trying to help his fellow German gamers with localization. Infogames should have overlooked the fact that his might have been copyright infringiment.

    In the end, it is horrible for their PR, if nothing else.
    • He wasn't try to compete with Infogames, trying to hurt their profits...

      He may not have been trying to hurt their profits, but seeing as how Infogrames Germany doesn't make money off the US version, he was hurting their profits. Would you buy two copies of a game if the first one worked fine but the second one happened to be localized?

      I didn't think so.

      Let's use a little common sense that we /.'ers are vaunted for, please.

    • The fact is, they're not making a profit off the US version and if they buy it now, it does cause significant loss of profit when they do release an official German version. The fact remains, there was nothing malicious in the intent of Kai to translate the game, and I don't think the response was malicious, either. They didn't sue him for his efforts, just sent him a legal notice to stop and asked him to pay a relatively small legal fee. Annoying as it may be to be asked to pay lawyers' fees, it's a lot more of a fair response to what happened than what they could've done. It's a slap on the wrist and their reasons for asking him to stop were legitimate. So what's the problem here?
      • They also told him that he would be held responsible for others distributing files based on his translation. The already finished parts (ca. 75% of all text) has been available for download a couple of days already, and the project was featured on Heise. So how many people have copies of those files already?
    • Kai was not doing anything malicious. He wasn't try to compete with Infogames, trying to hurt their profits, or even trying to make a profit from himself.

      True, but regardless of what he was trying to do, he was in fact competing with Infogrames and, if successful, he would have hurt their profits.

      Infogames should have overlooked the fact that his might have been copyright infringiment.

      There's no "might have been" here. Unauthorized derivative works, which include translations, are prohibited under the copyright law of virtually every nation on earth and have been for a long time. This is nothing new, and it's nothing sneaky. If this were not the case, I'd be making tons of money rushing German translations of the latest Stephen King novels to market.

      All that being said, it was rather stupid of Infogrames to take such a ham-handed approach with an until-recently-friendly fan who could have saved them a wad of cash and gotten the game to market sooner.

      The best way to punish Infogrames would be to refrain from buying the German version of Civ III until they apologize and withdraw their demand for money. I rather doubt any such boycott will ever happen in this particular market, though.

  • Remember... (Score:4, Informative)

    by enrico_suave ( 179651 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @04:56PM (#2607824) Homepage
    This is in germany... and that something similiar (opportunistic lawyers using a german law to fatten their own wallets)

    see what happened to Kontour (was Killustrator [slashdot.org] because of a similiar german lawyer tactic [slashdot.org]...

    it's like ambulance chasing but for intellectual property... so... don't necessarily jump on infogames case, because they didn't initiate the cease and decist...

    E.

    • Re:Remember... (Score:3, Informative)

      by Rogerborg ( 306625 )
      • don't necessarily jump on infogames case, because they didn't initiate the cease and decist...

      If you know that, please let us know how, because that's not what the blurb here says:

      • Kai informed Infogrames of his effort and even offered to join forces with their localization team if only the game would be released sooner. Sadly, Infogrames reacted by sending Kai a cease and desist letter
      • uhm... either i'm clarivoyent... or I skimmed over that part =P ... Sorry. Do I get an out because I said to not get on "infogames" case when we were discussing infogrames???

        We'll see, I'm probably off base...

        e.
    • While it is true that there is a very annoying guild of "cease and desist" lawyers in Germany, in this particular case the legal action was indeed initiated by Infogrames Germany.

      To expand the subject a bit: If memory serves, "cease and desist" ambulance chasing doesn't work in copyright issues because there is no public interest that needs protection. "Cease and desist" lawyers prefer to pick on incorrect advertising by small companies as there is some moeny to be had and there is little need for research. A few years back, lawyers went bonkers with computer stores advertising 17" monitors (as opposed to 43.18cm monitors). Happily, the courts put a stop to this by declaring "17" monitor" a proper name rather than a measurement and a name. Same with floppy sizes (8.89cm and 13.225cm floppies). :-)

      Note: it is legal to advertise using english mesurements as long as metric is shown as well.

  • Remember a few months ago when German lawyers went after the creator of KIllustrator? Adobe had no idea their overseas hired guns were going after this guy for alleged copyright violations (of course, this happened right at the beginning of l'affaire Dmitry, so it might have slipped through the memory hole). This sounds exactly like that, down to the fact that, as per German law, the alleged violator got slapped with the lawyer's bill for "preparing the paperwork". I have this strange feeling that Bruno and his band of corporate raiders have no idea this might be happening, and I'm certain that Sid Meier doesn't.

    With CivI and CivII, the dialogue for the boxes was always included as plain text. I remember happily editing the intro dialogue to CivI to do parodies of various things (as did others; the Douglas Adams parody was incredibly popular in its time). I and others also edited some of the various dialogues, not only into foreign languages, but into certain statements that can't really be said in a family site like this one. What Infroggrames is doing is destroying an eleven-year-old tradition. Of course, Infogrames has a habit of doing that.

    Civ fans form one of the most dedicated computer gaming communities around, rivaling Quake and Half-Life, not to mention with a great deal more history. If Infogrames wants to keep that fandom on their side to purchase more copies of Infogrames games, this isn't the way to do it.

  • So where can I pick up my 'Boycott Sid Meier' shirt/Tshirt/bumper sticker?
    • ThinkGeek

      is already getting T-shirts silkscreened.

    • Re:T-shirts? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @05:21PM (#2607903)

      > So where can I pick up my 'Boycott Sid Meier' shirt/Tshirt/bumper sticker?

      Research "Tee Shirts" and "Printing", and then you can build them in any city with a textile mill.
      Or you may find it easier to just plunder neighboring civilizations that already have them.
      • Why would you want to? Sid Meier has absolutely nothing to do with what Infograms does or doesn't do. The best Sid can do is say 'wow, that sucks. Remind me NOT to renew our publishing contract when it comes up.'
  • IANAL, so it is not clear to me how copyright applies in the case of the translation of a book, video game or whatever. It is clear that you cannot copy parts or the whole of the original authors script other than for some special purposes that are covered under fair use. But in the case of a translation, you are not copying anything. You are reformulating and sometimes interpreting the ideas of the original author, which would seem to be covered under fair use.

    In the case of civ3 it seems to be even unclearer, since Infogrames probably has the right to distribute the German version, but the translators are not distributing the game. Is there a right of translation? And since Infogrames distributes the English version as well, at least in Europe, what is their financial damage in that case. Isn't it rather a gain, when more people buy the game, especially if it puts the release date of the "German version" before Christmas instead of March?
  • It's not like the entertainment companies have to worry about alienating their fan base. It's pretty well been proven that they can fuck their fans over without vaseline or K-Y and the fans will still line up and pay them for it the next time something comes out. And doing that is fine but please, a little less whining the next time they get the giant legal dildo out and tell some part of the community to bend over. We seem to feel that being mildly entertained for an hour or two is worth the price of having to bend over for that dildo, so I don't think we have the right to complain when they stick it up our collective ass.
    • I completely agree. Everybody bitching in here will probably buy Civ3, if they haven't already. It's like with the RIAA. People will bitch about them while still using their products. The best thing one could do to show disapproval is a true boycott. There are many other great games out there.
      • It's not just Civ. Look at CmdrTaco drooling over the Xbox and the latest Disney flick! Look at all the people hot to get their hands on an Ipod! And lets not even go into the assorted Sony products the community lusts after (Sony is as bad as Disney if not worse.)

        Can you even avoid it now? Every DVD purchase or rental is a little contribution to the funds used by these corporations to ass rape their own customers using the legal system. Every song you listen to on the radio, every CD you buy is another few cents that goes to that bitch Hillary Rosen, who justifies strapping on a lee press-on penis and fucking her customers up the ass in the name of the rights of the artists (The tremendous irony of this always seems to escape her, too.)

        And, as Gello Biafra so astutely observed, the only person able to escape this corporate cluster-fuck was the fucking Unibomber and he was a fucking nut-bag.

        I think I've got a point around here somewhere... Oh yeah. These bastards are not going to volunteer to stop screwing us over and we have fewer and fewer rights every day; their attitude is that we have the privilidge to pay them for the use of their products and we have less and less ownership every day. The only way we're going to break out of this cycle is through legislation and they give a hell of a lot more to Congress than we do individually.

  • Compare with Harry Potter in German (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Rogerborg ( 306625 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @05:16PM (#2607887) Homepage

    I know of two unofficial fan translations of Harry Potter books into German. This high quality, multi contributor [bbc.co.uk] one was torpedoed before completion. However, this one man effort [ananova.com] hit the web early, and was allowed to stay up by a court because it was inferior to the official translation.

    And there's the problem. A translation can be treated as a derivative work with enough original content to protect it under copyright laws. It doesn't have to be worse, it can be better - it just has to be different. However, if the copyright holder (in another language) has not yet done a translation, it becomes problematical to prove that your translation is substantially different.

    As this is a civil case, it'll come down to a judge deciding what is (here comes that word again) a reasonable delay of the official version before translators can take a shot at it. A three month delay is probably reasonable, a three year one probably unreasonable, but it will be decided on a case by case basis (at least in the UK, I'd be interested to hear if there's a specification of duration in Germany)

    So, if the translators waited for the official CivIII German version to come out, then produced their own resource files that differed from the official ones, that would be allowed. But they can't force the copyright owners to hurry up.

    What a tangled web we weave.

  • Infogrames' statement on their homepage (Score:3, Informative)

    by EboMike ( 236714 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @05:27PM (#2607920)
    Infogrames Germany have released a statement [infogrames.de] about this issue on their homepage.

    Google's translation [google.com] is astonishingly readable, but just in case, here's the text in a nutshell:

    - It's a clear violation of the copyright and Infogrames is required to enforce it.

    - The official German localization is already in a pretty advanced state - its advantage over the "guerilla translation" is that it covers the entire game while Kai's translation only deals with certain parts of the game. [At least that's how I understand this part]

    - In general however, Infogrames are very pleased about fan initiatives and plan to support them more in future. They are still trying to work out ways to cooperate with them.

  • Inaccurate Translation (Score:3, Funny)

    by Cruciform ( 42896 ) on Saturday November 24, 2001 @05:27PM (#2607923) Homepage
    If, according to some of the posts, an inaccurate translation is the safest way to go, then they should have used Babelfish.

    "You have discovered the wheel."
    "You have discovered metal employment."
    "You have discovered waffle pigeon."
  • In my opinion, if what some people state might be the case, Infogrames isn't aware of the ongoings within their company, then they're incompetent. If they are aware, then they're malicious bastards. Either way, it sours my opinion of them.
  • If somone uses Babelfish to "modify" their copyrighted website?
  • Here's the first paragraph of one of the Heise online articles:

    The controversy over the translation of the US play Civilization 3 (Civ3) by fans of the play escalates. The company Infogrames, which possesses international rights to distribute the game, sent the 39-year old project manager Fiebach additionally for the provisional order an omission assertion and a lawyer bill of over 1,000 Marks...In the omission assertion Fiebach is requested by the lawyer of the company, Stephan Wiedorfer, to omit any processing of the computer program Civilization 3 and to cease distribution of 'processing' created so far. With an offence against this agreement Fiebach would have to pay a contractual penalty at a value of 20,000 Marks as well as attorney's fees.

    The rub is that Fiebach is also being nailed for further distribution of his translation over the internet (not sure what copyright law precedent is in regards to this sort of thing):

    (He is being held) responsible for further files which are based on his translation which are distributed by third parties over the internet.

    Infogames' German-language version of Civ3 is not due to be released for four months, at least:

    ...a translation through third parties is out of the question, particularly since Infogrames Germany counts on significant incomes with the sales starting in March 2002 of the available German version of Civ 3.

  • Babelfish translation of original article (Score:3, Interesting)

    by vrmlguy ( 120854 ) <samwyse&gmail,com> on Saturday November 24, 2001 @06:18PM (#2608044) Homepage Journal
    Controversy over translation of the US play Civilization 3 escalates

    The controversy over the translation of the US play Civilization 3 (Civ3) by fans of the play escalates. The company Infogrames, who possesses world-wide the rights to distribute, sent to the 39-jaehrigen project manager dock Fiebach additionally for the provisional order an omission assertion and a lawyer calculation at a value of over 1.000 Marks. The calculation called, requires Infogrames fast groundless however further the delivery of the omission assertion. Fiebach needs more time according to own specification however, in order to confer with its lawyer over the individual points exactly.

    In the omission assertion Fiebach is requested Stephan Wiedorfer, by the lawyer of the enterprise, to omit any processing the computer program Civilization 3 and so far created to ' processing ' no more to spread. With an offence against this agreement Fiebach would have to pay a contractual penalty at a value of 20.000 Marks as well as transfer the lawyer costs.

    Fiebach could not fulfill these demands according to its predicates -- however the condition to be responsible for further files which are based on its translation which distribute third over the network. " as I am to control ", express myself Fiebach annoyed opposite heise on-line.

    Besides it is impossible in opinion of Fiebach to consult within the set period its lawyer. It is annoyed about the behavior of employer speaker Michael Wetzel, which guessed/advised it to the lawyer assistance, it however for it no extension of the period not described more near enables in particular. " Mr. Wetzel even guessed/advised me to switch a lawyer on. Mine is however in the vacation and I at present knows myself not, as I with restraint is ", does not deplore myself Fiebach. The demand, Civilization 3 might be translated not through third, is to opinion of Fiebach besides in the glaring contrast to the comments and the initial assistance of a support coworker of the Civilization developer Firaxis. This had helped Fiebach at the beginning of the translation work and even for its Community support had praised.

    Likewise under bombardment the operators of the German-language Civilization-3 largest according to own specification are guessed/advised - Fansite Civ3.de , which is led even on the Firaxis homepage in the column Fansites. The two operators likewise received an omission assertion. Fiebach explained in the meantime, he respected the decision of the Site operators to delete the project web page and lock the FTP acces.

    Infogrames speaker Michael Wetzel understands the disappointment of Fiebach, does not want however despite the protests of the fans not from the course to deviate and a time extension grant. In a discussion with heise on-line it made clear that it concerns itself with the play around property of Infogrames. Therefore be out of the question a translation through third, particularly since Infogrames Germany counts on not insignificant incomes with the sales starting from March 2002 of the available German version of Civ 3.

    The fact that the fans of Civ3 do not agree with the behavior shows various forum contributions to the Infogrames Website.Auch those daily more than 200 Mails, which achieve the enterprise according to firm speaker Wetzel daily, makes by the majority their displeasure over this situation air -- partial in quite harschen words ( daa / c't)

  • .... has been slapped with a cease and desist letter, including $500 lawyer bill from Infogrames Germany. ..... copyright

    Guys, Germany has some really weird laws. Anybody can send someone a "you're violating a copyright" letter, and tack along a bill for the effort of writing that letter. I won't be surprised if this is a stupid German Lawyer who started this. (without any need to contact Infogrames).

    I can't find any "originals" so... I don't know for sure what's going on....

    Roger.
  • Read the Babelfish translation! [altavista.com] A particularly good extract [my emphasis]:

    Besides it is impossible in opinion of Fiebach to consult within the set period its lawyer. It is annoyed about the behavior of employer speaker Michael Wetzel, which guessed/advised it to the lawyer assistance, it however for it no extension of the period not described more near enables in particular. " Mr. Wetzel even guessed/advised me to switch a lawyer on. Mine is however in the vacation and I at present knows myself not, as I with restraint is ", does not deplore myself Feibach.

    There we have it -- conslusive proof that lawyers are robots after all. (And what the HELL does the previous sentence mean?!)

  • Not to play it, or anything (I've never played Civ). Just to piss them off.

    Does this mean people who are working on translations of Japanese game ROMs are going to stop for fear of lawsuits? I hope not.

    Maybe it's time for a career change. Those lawyer cocksuckers make a bundle for nothing more than being sheer assholes.

    -Legion

  • ...ask for a world map, two technologies, and half the treasury, then gone to war anyway.

    Yeah, I guess I've been playing too much. ;-)

  • We have the technology to create parodies [slashdot.org] of web-sites in real time. And we have ways to translate text [slashdot.org] in real time. How about copying Civ (and other games) to a JIT-translating file server.

    Here's one method off the top of my head: Put the files on a Linux filesystem, exported via SAMBA. Add a hook that intercepts text, routes it through the fish, and sends it on the the game system. The first time the file is accessed, things will be slow, but the file server can cache the translations so that subsequent accesses will be much faster.

  • A lot of people are in here arguing that "Infrogrames has a right to make money", as if this were a piracy issue. Had you read the blurb on Slashdot more closely, you would realize that this translation is only for people that legitimately bought the US version of the software, usually online.

    Infrogrames may not be making money specifically the way it wants (small licensing fees going through Infrogrames Germany and into the US Infrogrames)... but they're actually making more money this way than they would be on the official German translation of Civ3.

  • Here's the address you can send your displeasure to:

    askthecivteam@firaxis.com

    Please be civil.

    Remember, if you _own_ a product, you are not _copying_ it or infringing Firaxis's rights in any way. As long as the patch (which I believe will involve a translation of the "Text" subdirectory) will not work unless you have the real thing, I can't see how Firaxis can lose... unless they heavy handedly stomp and piss on all their fans. Of which I am one.

    For shame, Firaxis!
  • Regarding Civ III and Infogrames, I've got a gripe with them Stateside.

    They marketed a "Limited Editon" which promised designer notes(which were pretty much the only worthwhile goodie added). They shipped the Limited Edition, which said it contained the designer notes, and they never included them. Just plain forgot to include them in all 75,000 of the "limited" Limited Edition.

    People have squawked about it [apolyton.net], but Infogrames and Firaxis (Sid Meier's company) have been silent on this rip-off. This is particularly galling as Firaxis used to be a real standout in terms of standing behind their products with patch support and decent documentation.

    Sometimes you wonder how the bean counters really can manage to screw up a thing of beauty.

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