First, this isn't just about orcs. One of the particular species in question are dark elves. They have very dark skin, and in at least some official artwork look pretty close to what one would expect an African American person might look like, except skinny and with pointy ears. See for example this cover art depicting the dark elven princess Liriel Baenre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter_of_the_Drow#/media/File:Daughter_of_the_Drow.jpg [wikipedia.org]. Second, part of the objection concerning the orcs and species in general is the sheer idea that there are "evil" intelligent species.
If one does want to criticize this, a far more salient criticism of what WoTC is saying is that this isn't at all new. When the Eberron setting came out back during the 3.5 edition era, it was noteworthy for being a setting which had complicated characters and where individuals were not determined by their species. And even then, it included complicated aspects of orcish culture. The valid complaint then is not that this isn't an unreasonable thing to do, but that they were already doing this 15 years ago. Making an emphasis about it now really is a response to current issues, and not remotely a change in what they were doing. For that reason, this is one of the rare occasions where an accusation of virtue signaling is accurate, but not for the reasons you seemed to think.
"Black skin" is about the only feature a Drow has in common with a black skinned human. White hair, red eyes, purple teeth, slightly shorter than the average elf, generally incredibly slender...
Am I really the only one who never even came up with the idea to equate a Drow to a black human person?
It is true that some artwork they only have black skin in common, but other artwork has more in the way of racial features. This is especially true with some of the artwork for Liriel Baenre and some early Drizzt artwork; see for example the artwork I linked above. Over the last few years, WoTC has deliberately adopted a general approach to make the dark elves really just look like standard elves with dark skin. But that's somewhat new.
It's not freaking new. Dark Elves were always depicted as _Elves_ with dark skin black as night with a blue|purple hue, -- such a tone of color doesn't exist at all in humans.
What's next, *Lolth [fandom.com] the Queen of Spiders or the Queen of the Demonweb Pits is not evil she's just misunderstood.
(*) Lolth -- the most influential goddess of the drow, within the pantheon of the Dark Seldarine.
What's next, *Lolth the Queen of Spiders or the Queen of the Demonweb Pits is not evil she's just misunderstood.
Isn't that more interesting anyway? Having a character that's "just evil" is pretty bland from a narrative point of view. They can only serve as a backdrop to other characters. Having more nuanced characters is always more interesting.
I generally agree. Black and white morality tends to be less interesting. This is a more recent trend in thought, though. Think Beowulf and most classics. There are great current works with "just evil" characters, like Zykon from Order of the Stick. Hilarious, but even his origin story was designed to keep him "just evil" and not sympathetic.
Another great example of a "just evil" character was Darth Vader. He was "just evil" until right before he died. We didn't have much time to see him as a complex charac
So... you think south Asians, Africans, African Americans (who are often mixed race with caucasians and others), Jamaicans, many central and South Americans and every blonde haired, blue eyed Northern European with a heavy tan are the same because they all have dark skin?
Obviously not. But why bother explaining shit you already understand?
You're not interested in genuine dialog. You're just a fucking troll. Your M.O. is to purposefully misrepresent a simple statement to bait a reply, knowing that reasonable people will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to explain the misunderstanding. You repeat this until you can pretend to trap them in a contradiction or they realize you're worthless and ignore you.
So, no, whatever nonsense you wrote is obviously just empty non
My MO is to point out stupid arguments and shred them to ribbons by providing real world examples a child could understand. Being a fat baby my comments are above your level so you don't get them which makes you frustrated so you cry to mama about the big mean troll who hurt your feelings.
You hate my rhetorical style because it's brutally effective and strips away the covers revealing the sheer stupidity underneath which embarrasses people for saying stupid shit.
Actually, usually (including in the example book cover above) Drow are most often portrayed with *black* skin. Not brown. Not dark brown. Not so dark brown that it almost looks black skin. But actual charcoal colored skin. And they often have european sylvan features. Frequently with a long nose.
I don't think we can play historically accurate games without racism. Because nation states were divided along racial lines.
I think it's safer to use organizations as a foe because organizations can be compos
R. A. Salvatore wrote likely the best books in the Forgotten Realms for specifically this reason. The basic premise being to look at racial discrimination in fantasy books, which was a first. It added a real dimension that made them more compelling. Just like George RR Martin added some realism (and brutality) to fantasy to make it more real. R. A. Salvatore character drizzt do'urden struggles with how people feel about him because of what he looked like and was trying to illustrate that individuals are m
They have very dark skin, and in at least some official artwork look pretty close to what one would expect an African American person might look like
Drow are not visually the Elven equivalent of Africans. They're obsidian black by description, and usually some shade of actual black. Even in that picture, she is greyish in color.
Second, part of the objection concerning the orcs and species in general is the sheer idea that there are "evil" intelligent species.
The problem here with the "evil" nature of the race is that those racial traits in the books include societal traits. They don't do the best job of making that clear, but they do explain that some groups or individuals of the races are not necessarily aligned with the race as a whole.
When the Eberron setting came out back during the 3.5 edition era, it was noteworthy for being a setting which had complicated characters and where individuals were not determined by their species. And even then, it included complicated aspects of orcish culture.
The Drow are "evil" in the sense that they are backstabbing, Machiavellian master schemers, out of necessity because their society is pretty much built like that. "Byzantine" isn't even coming close to the level of ruthlessness going down in Menzoberranzan and the average wall street wizard and Fortune 500 CEO wouldn't survive (or remain a free person) for longer than a day there.
They are a product of their society. You get born into this world and you adapt to its rules, or you're dead, a slave or a drider
To be clear for others, you're speaking of Forgotten Realms Drow. The Greyhawk Drow, from what I can see, are basically the same society but without the FR specifics.
The Eberron Drow are quite different. Like much of Eberron, the different races are broken up into different societies. This even includes Drow that are melded with the rest of the civilized races as part of the common society of Eberron. Eberron does at least a halfway decent job of making sure the races aren't monodimensional. However, using
Ideology/Politics infesting passtimes (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, but if you look at an Orc, Troll, etc and think "Black Person", it's YOU who are the racist.
The whole point of the game is to give you enemies who aren't necessarily other PEOPLE to fight.
This is stupid virtue signaling, turned up to 11, and nothing more.
Look at what this woke crap has done to other industries, like comics.
Sure, the MOVIES make zillions.
But the actual comics industry is now in the toilet, in the process of being flushed.
And it's starting to metastatize in gaming.
Oh well. A 40-odd ye
Re:Ideology/Politics infesting passtimes (Score:1, Insightful)
First, this isn't just about orcs. One of the particular species in question are dark elves. They have very dark skin, and in at least some official artwork look pretty close to what one would expect an African American person might look like, except skinny and with pointy ears. See for example this cover art depicting the dark elven princess Liriel Baenre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter_of_the_Drow#/media/File:Daughter_of_the_Drow.jpg [wikipedia.org]. Second, part of the objection concerning the orcs and species in general is the sheer idea that there are "evil" intelligent species.
If one does want to criticize this, a far more salient criticism of what WoTC is saying is that this isn't at all new. When the Eberron setting came out back during the 3.5 edition era, it was noteworthy for being a setting which had complicated characters and where individuals were not determined by their species. And even then, it included complicated aspects of orcish culture. The valid complaint then is not that this isn't an unreasonable thing to do, but that they were already doing this 15 years ago. Making an emphasis about it now really is a response to current issues, and not remotely a change in what they were doing. For that reason, this is one of the rare occasions where an accusation of virtue signaling is accurate, but not for the reasons you seemed to think.
Re:Ideology/Politics infesting passtimes (Score:5, Insightful)
"Black skin" is about the only feature a Drow has in common with a black skinned human. White hair, red eyes, purple teeth, slightly shorter than the average elf, generally incredibly slender...
Am I really the only one who never even came up with the idea to equate a Drow to a black human person?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
It's not freaking new. Dark Elves were always depicted as _Elves_ with dark skin black as night with a blue|purple hue, -- such a tone of color doesn't exist at all in humans.
What's next, *Lolth [fandom.com] the Queen of Spiders or the Queen of the Demonweb Pits is not evil she's just misunderstood.
(*) Lolth -- the most influential goddess of the drow, within the pantheon of the Dark Seldarine.
Re: (Score:2)
What's next, *Lolth the Queen of Spiders or the Queen of the Demonweb Pits is not evil she's just misunderstood.
Isn't that more interesting anyway? Having a character that's "just evil" is pretty bland from a narrative point of view. They can only serve as a backdrop to other characters. Having more nuanced characters is always more interesting.
Re: (Score:2)
I generally agree. Black and white morality tends to be less interesting. This is a more recent trend in thought, though. Think Beowulf and most classics. There are great current works with "just evil" characters, like Zykon from Order of the Stick. Hilarious, but even his origin story was designed to keep him "just evil" and not sympathetic.
Another great example of a "just evil" character was Darth Vader. He was "just evil" until right before he died. We didn't have much time to see him as a complex charac
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
"Black skin" is about the only feature a Drow has in common with a black skinned human
... skin colour is kinda the defining characteristic of racism bro.
Re: (Score:2)
That's like saying not liking polar bears is racist, you're aware of that?
We're not even talking about the same species FFS!
Re: Ideology/Politics infesting passtimes (Score:1)
Seriously?
Would you like to try again?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Obviously not. But why bother explaining shit you already understand?
You're not interested in genuine dialog. You're just a fucking troll. Your M.O. is to purposefully misrepresent a simple statement to bait a reply, knowing that reasonable people will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to explain the misunderstanding. You repeat this until you can pretend to trap them in a contradiction or they realize you're worthless and ignore you.
So, no, whatever nonsense you wrote is obviously just empty non
Re: Ideology/Politics infesting passtimes (Score:1)
Being a fat baby my comments are above your level so you don't get them which makes you frustrated so you cry to mama about the big mean troll who hurt your feelings.
You hate my rhetorical style because it's brutally effective and strips away the covers revealing the sheer stupidity underneath which embarrasses people for saying stupid shit.
Your style is, "wah wah wah you're a troll bec
Re: (Score:2)
You hate my rhetorical style because it's brutally effective [...]
Being a fat baby my comments are above your level[...]
So brutally effective.
Re: (Score:1)
Actually, usually (including in the example book cover above) Drow are most often portrayed with *black* skin. Not brown. Not dark brown. Not so dark brown that it almost looks black skin. But actual charcoal colored skin. And they often have european sylvan features. Frequently with a long nose.
I don't think we can play historically accurate games without racism. Because nation states were divided along racial lines.
I think it's safer to use organizations as a foe because organizations can be compos
drizzt do'urden (Score:2)
R. A. Salvatore wrote likely the best books in the Forgotten Realms for specifically this reason. The basic premise being to look at racial discrimination in fantasy books, which was a first. It added a real dimension that made them more compelling. Just like George RR Martin added some realism (and brutality) to fantasy to make it more real. R. A. Salvatore character drizzt do'urden struggles with how people feel about him because of what he looked like and was trying to illustrate that individuals are m
Re: (Score:2)
They have very dark skin, and in at least some official artwork look pretty close to what one would expect an African American person might look like
Drow are not visually the Elven equivalent of Africans. They're obsidian black by description, and usually some shade of actual black. Even in that picture, she is greyish in color.
Second, part of the objection concerning the orcs and species in general is the sheer idea that there are "evil" intelligent species.
The problem here with the "evil" nature of the race is that those racial traits in the books include societal traits. They don't do the best job of making that clear, but they do explain that some groups or individuals of the races are not necessarily aligned with the race as a whole.
When the Eberron setting came out back during the 3.5 edition era, it was noteworthy for being a setting which had complicated characters and where individuals were not determined by their species. And even then, it included complicated aspects of orcish culture.
I would say since at least the beginning of 3
Re: (Score:2)
The Drow are "evil" in the sense that they are backstabbing, Machiavellian master schemers, out of necessity because their society is pretty much built like that. "Byzantine" isn't even coming close to the level of ruthlessness going down in Menzoberranzan and the average wall street wizard and Fortune 500 CEO wouldn't survive (or remain a free person) for longer than a day there.
They are a product of their society. You get born into this world and you adapt to its rules, or you're dead, a slave or a drider
Re: (Score:2)
The Eberron Drow are quite different. Like much of Eberron, the different races are broken up into different societies. This even includes Drow that are melded with the rest of the civilized races as part of the common society of Eberron. Eberron does at least a halfway decent job of making sure the races aren't monodimensional. However, using
Re: Ideology/Politics infesting passtimes (Score:1)
However, I'd fuck the shit out of a hot dark elf.
Enough said.