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PC Games (Games) Entertainment Games

Reducing Pesky Fan Noise? 59

Posted by simoniker from the less-noise-more-sound dept.
Thanks to FiringSquad for their editorial about how gamers and developers interact in public forums, inspired by Alex 'Marweas' Rodberg's public outburst in the HomeWorld 2 forums, which in turn inspired a Penny Arcade strip about the trials and tribulations of being a 'community manager'. The FiringSquad article suggests that "...there's an increasing divide between the people who make the games and the people who play them. And guess whose fault it is? It's yours, not theirs", and goes on to venture that "Online interaction is so impersonal, so fraught with assurances of anonymity, and so littered with the maladjusted and juvenile, that there are no social repercussions for acting like a jackass." What's to be done?
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Reducing Pesky Fan Noise? More

Reducing Pesky Fan Noise?

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  • What's to be done? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by DaveJay ( 133437 )
    >What's to be done?

    Well, with Slashdot so fraught with assurances of anonymity, and so littered with the maladjusted and juvenile, I guess I'll act like a jackass. Eeyore!

  • How to resolve pesky fan noise... (Score:5, Funny)

    by XBL ( 305578 ) on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @07:52PM (#6864441)
    Buy some stuff from Quiet PC [quietpc.com]. Maybe some lower RPM ball-bearing fans and shit.

  • Huh (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @07:53PM (#6864448)
    When I first read this, and the Penny Arcade strip, I honestly thought of all the user complaints /. editors have. (ie moaning about trolls, complaining about poor mods, etc) I am shocked at the arrogance many developers/site owners/moderators have toward their users! (I'm not trying to single out /. here, they are just a good example) In many cases, the users are the ones who made the editors who they are. Look at /., aintitcool, or even fark. Without the users, these sites would have little value. If all your value is derived from user submitted content, maybe users should be respected/rewarded/thanked occasionally, instead of the moaning.

    -Sean

    • BioWare forums (Score:3, Insightful)

      by QEDog ( 610238 )
      Bioware does a surprisingly good job in their forums. Yes, way too many people post there. Yes, people don't use the appropiate threads to handle the proper issues. Yes, a lot of fanboys saying things that are not relevant at all for the developer or the gaming comunity. But, somehow, the moderators are able to post frequently, talking about the issues. In fact, when NWN came out the toolset had a lot of bugs, and the forum became a very powerful tool to help handle those. Were the moderators bitching about
    • I got kicked off of Enworld, for making a south park reference. I could have been mad about that I suppose, but it was so funny. They objected to the phrase "Hippie Joo" (Eric spells it in the ladder to heaven episode iirc). They thought either Jews didn't want to be called hippies or hippies objected to being called jews. Even though they said they suspected I was joking, they thought it was too over the top, and they didn't want to risk offending anyone's delicate sensibilities. Religion being such a
    • Look at /., aintitcool, or even fark. Without the users, these sites would have little value.

      What do you mean, 'would have'?

  • Poppycock (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Syncdata ( 596941 ) on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @08:04PM (#6864522) Journal
    there are no social repercussions for acting like a jackass
    There certainly are. You are labeled and branded as a jackass.
    I remember in the days when I'd hit up rec.games.wotc.magic and read the posts. WOTC went through reps like water, due to beligerent people making the reps job a pain.
    But the thing of it is, it's the reps fault for not being able to suck it up and do his job. Members of the public can often be belligerent, whether anonymous or otherwise.
    If you work for a company tailoring to the public, (as all companies do) deal with it. Affixing blame to the public for this cat's inability to represent his company is ludicrous, particularly given that he himself was demonstrating a certain degree of belligerence himself, let alone making himself look like a jack-ass.
    I'm sure the nature of gravity makes a pilots job more difficult, but I doubt pilots get all huffy, and write angry letters to sci.Newton.gravity.

    • Re:Poppycock (Score:5, Insightful)

      by tc ( 93768 ) on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @08:14PM (#6864594)
      You're both right and wrong. Firstly, some disclosure: I am a game developer, and I post on public forums about my game.

      You're right in that we can't blame 14 year old fanboys for being jackasses. That's what they do. You're also right that being belligerent towards the public (i.e. your customers) is not sound business sense. That's why my policy is that I just ignore the jackasses and stick to answering sane questions or responding to reasoned criticism without blowing up at anybody.

      On the other hand, as the article pointed out, the forum fanboys represent merely a tiny loudmouthed fraction of your total customer base, and they tend to vastly overestimate their importance and influence. Which means that games developers can usually get by quite well without having to keep them happy. When a forum starts becoming too noisy or abusive, the developers tend to just leave quietly (again, as the article observed), only occasionally do they snap and blow up on their way out. The losers when that happens are the forum users, not the game developer.

      So yes, game developers should act like calm professionals when dealing with public forums. Same as the representative of any business. On the other hand, forum fanboys should realise that posting on public forums is often something developers do because they want to, not because they have to, and that driving them away by being pointlessly abusive is not exactly smart behaviour either.

      • USUALLY.

        However, one of the things which inspires people to buy games is mods. In the wake of Marweas's little outburst, several mod teams have stopped work, waiting to see what kind of support Sierra will have for them.

        That can't help the game.

        • Re:Poppycock (Score:1, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          Remember - while mods do keep a game alive, most of any game's sales come within the first few weeks of sales, long before any mod crews have released their packages.

          Yes, I love modding, don't get me wrong - I think it's great for the fans, and great for the industry in general. But even if a few modder groups have shut down in the wake of this outburst, it won't affect game sales to any noticeable degree.
        • However, one of the things which inspires people to buy games is mods.

          Fair point. However, I think the people who are inspired to buy games by the mods significantly overlap with the people who read the forums anyway. Don't get me wrong, mods are cool, and definitely add significant value to a game, but most customers are more casual and tend to play the game the way it came in the box. With the exception of Counterstrike, I can't think of a mod which is truly a 'must have' game seller.

          Marweas's outburs

        • Re:Poppycock (Score:3, Insightful)

          by ivan256 ( 17499 ) *
          However, one of the things which inspires people to buy games is mods.

          The percentage of the game buying population that knows what a mod is is practically insignificant in the pool of buyers. On top of that, mod users can be more of a hassle than their $50 is worth. Catering to the 12 guys who built their own PCs with "cool" features that they don't realize are the cause of instability (like the windows in the side with the wireless base station on top) who act like children (or are children) and fill the

          • Re:Poppycock (Score:2, Funny)

            by Makoss ( 660100 )
            Pfft. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Half-Life would have been soooo lame if not for my blowhole, water cooling, and UV lighting.

            Mods are so cool they even started bundling half-life with them, any of you guys know what color Cold-Cathodes they were shipping?

            Ohh. . . .wait. . . .you mean those OTHER sorts of mods. . . .

      • I'm curious, who do you work for and/or what are some games you've worked on?
      • So yes, game developers should act like calm professionals when dealing with public forums. Same as the representative of any business. On the other hand, forum fanboys should realise that posting on public forums is often something developers do because they want to, not because they have to, and that driving them away by being pointlessly abusive is not exactly smart behaviour either.

        I think you missed the parent poster's point. He compared the whining of annoying fans to gravity because both are consta

  • Community managers (Score:2, Interesting)

    by FooAtWFU ( 699187 )
    I am very glad that I do not have to manage a community... and I'm amazed, overall, at the kind of patience that many community leaders are able to show in the face of idiocy, trolling, and flaming.

    Perhaps more communitites could implement a Slashdot-like system with karma, moderation points, et cetera. On the other hand, it might be hard to structure moderdation around miniature communities such as these. Still, for the midsize to large community, it might provide at least a partial solution.

    Now, to find

  • IRC (Score:3, Funny)

    by Gr33nNight ( 679837 ) on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @08:15PM (#6864601)
    Try being an operator on IRC, you think there are jackasses and immature loots on message boards? Oh man, come to any IRC channel with 400+ users.

    • Re:IRC (Score:3, Interesting)

      by FooAtWFU ( 699187 )
      I hang out on #angband (WorldIRC network). While I can't say that there are 400+ users the channel has a simple solution. Nearly everyone is an operator.
      Of those 41 users who are on as I write this, 33 are ops. There are also about 5 bots and 2 services. There are a large number of regulars- impossible to count exactly, of course, but over 100 who are at least quasi-regular.

      If some random jerk comes in and immediately starts advertising (and I quote from earlier today: "just go here.. really fun free game!
    • Been there, done it, got the hate. Wouldn't do it again. Dealing with idiot people you're doing web hosting for is bad enough, but at least they're paying you.
      • Sometimes its alot more fun than you realize. I work IT, its such a stress reliever sometimes to ban someone for acting like an ass. Much safer than going to work with a semi-automatic weapon.

  • The only thing wrong with MMOGs... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by wtom ( 619054 ) on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @08:21PM (#6864649)
    The only thing wrong with Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMOGs) are the other players. I have played Ultima Online for years now. Most of the people you see in the forums are the hardcore fans, not casual gamers. Most of them are, indeed, maladjusted trollish wastes of breath, cat-assing their lives away, going into jittery, spit-flinging caniption(sp?) fits over the latest class nerf or PvP change.

    I myself am a maladjusted, trollish waste of breath...but I don't spend my time going into paroxysms of infatile, futile outbursts on the boards about it....any more, anyway. I avoid gaming/dev boards like the plague that they are.

    I generally side with the devs on issues like this. I read that guy's response, and based on some of the feces I have seen thrown at devs on the UO boards in the past, I can guarantee that my response would have been less coherent, less polite, and have had a great deal more expletives in it.

    On the other hand, I would not have been stupid enough to take a job holding bees in my mouth in the first place. I have already lost any expectations of decent behavior from the vast majority of humankind, most especially those who huddle in darkened rooms in front of their multi-headed gaming systems, even as I myself do...
  • "Marweas" is at the end of job burn out, it gets picked up and turn in to a comic, my my my. All played out on the public stage, do you laugh, do you cry, you know my choice...

  • Social Repercussions (Score:4, Insightful)

    by shadowcabbit ( 466253 ) * <cx AT thefurryone DOT net> on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @08:40PM (#6864787) Journal
    "...there are no social repercussions for acting like a jackass." What's to be done?

    Simple. Create social repercussions for being a jackass. Slashdot, strange as it may seem, is the ideal prototype for a message board, with a few modifications. Moderation by the users, but meta-moderation by the developers; a tangible penalty for low karma (ie restricted posting or eventual IP banning) and tangible rewards for good karma (seeing "news stories" or artwork or something ahead of time); and moderators/metamoderators with a clear and unambiguous set of guidelines by which one should moderate.

    That's being nice. Being evil: the lower your karma goes, the more often your email address is signed up for gay animal porn spam. Trolls are "randomly selected" as winners to receive an exclusive "beta test" of the game, which turns out to be a warez'd copy of Daikatana with a photocopied picture of the game's logo as a CD sleeve... and somehow an anti-piracy group "happens" to come by a day later with a search warrant. Anyone who posts the latest form troll du jour (just read the last few stories at -1 for an example of what I mean) is immediately given a vicious sack beating and denied food and water until Duke Nukem Forever is released.

    I would prefer to see the "nice" version implemented, but eh. Do what you gotta do.
    • Your idea could use a few refinements, though. One most importantly is the creation of a database with all the players. Here on Slashdot, all you need is an e-mail address and you don't even need one from your ISP (I'm actually using a free one from Yahoo).

      One of the best possible methods would be to have all the players be logged by their CD key. Without actually buying a copy, its very hard to get one without; stealing one or hacking in the company's computers and extract a CD which about 90% of all ja

      • Bioware [bioware.com] does the CD key thing for its boards. How it works is that there are some forums that are open only to people with the appropriate CD key and other forums that are open to anyone at all. In addition, overly abusive people can have their CD Keys banned from posting for various periods of time.

        As someone with a registered CD key, it's been my experience that the signal to noise ratio is much, much higher in the forums where people are required to have at least purchased the game before they can go of

      • I have a good punishment for players who misbehave. Why not push the player into his/her own world where there are no other players? Then the trolls who screw with the game won't affect others. They'll be looking for victims and asking: "Why can't I find anyone???" Now that would be an evil punishment.

    • While I do dislike trolls (well, some posts by some trolls anyway), I don't think that metamoderation is good for all situations.

      Like what if there was a website that occasionally publishes article snippits that are vaguely political, and starts political discussions in which 99% of posts above +2 are some anti-Bush/pro-Dean rhetoric.

      However, as a member of a gaming forum, I'd have to say that it is in DIRE NEED of metamoderation.. Just don't let it stop at +5, go up to +2,000 and give everyone a vote,
  • I read the whole thread in which 'Marweas' flamed the community he was hired to interact with. It's actually interesting to see all the reactions it caused. Many people are angry at this dude, and rightly so. Game companies need to realize that certain actions that are ok in other types of businesses are NOT ok in the Gaming industry.
    • In what type of business is it ever sensible to start flaming your customer base? This isn't a games versus other business issue, as far as I can see, it's generic community relations issue.

      The only difference with the games business is that your customer base contains a larger (although not as large as you'd think) contingent of teenage boys, who are more prone to be obnoxious jackasses in public forums.

  • Dealing with noise (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sheetrock ( 152993 ) on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @09:33PM (#6865106) Homepage Journal
    First, the Penny Arcade thing hit the nail on the head. Fragile personalities should not be on the front line of your PR effort, especially when it involves delivering a stream of fluff and BS to gamers ("The release has been pushed ahead to August, and will definitely hit the shelves at the end of the month.", "It will support Windows, Linux, and MacOS out of the box.", "The next patch will address the crash to desktop issue."). The sad fact is that most gamers are not socially adept enough to accept delays or bugs, and most manufacturers push the developers into a timetable that ruins a perfect release.

    The solution? Discussion with gamers is going to be at its most helpful for the company during the early parts of game development, when ideas and features can be requested and demand can be built up in advance of a marketing campaign. As the project approaches beta testing, employees should cease discussion with the outside world and instead talk only with the beta testers, and interaction with gamers should be done with fancy advertisements in magazines and giveaways until the product hits the shelves. Afterwards, bug reports and patch requests should be handled privately, with the details of each report being filtered down to an exact set of problems for the patch team, relieving developers of the need to talk with disgruntled gamers. Obviously, neither camp can handle civilized discussion, so the only time they should talk is during the heady period before all the letdowns start occurring.

    • Re:Dealing with noise (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Wayfarer ( 10793 )

      The solution? Discussion with gamers is going to be at its most helpful for the company during the early parts of game development, when ideas and features can be requested and demand can be built up in advance of a marketing campaign. As the project approaches beta testing, employees should cease discussion with the outside world and instead talk only with the beta testers, and interaction with gamers should be done with fancy advertisements in magazines and giveaways until the product hits the shelves.

      • Rantz Hosely wasn't even a PR guy... he was somehow thrust into the midst of the horde that was the Moo3 forums and was forced to field question after question after ridiculous question.

        "Personally, I doubt anyone will be (intentionally) trying the MOO3 experiment again any time soon..."

        No kidding! The game was just not FUN! String along a fan base for years, then release a game that only hard-core addicts still want to play? No thanks!

  • Look, I can understand how the users feel, and I understand how Rodberg and other developers feel, but there's a lot of people who are at fault...

    #1: Rodberg. As a PR representative, he has no business blowing up at the fans like that. Yeah, they may be jackasses at some times, but he has to deal with that. Flaming your potential customers isn't going to help.

    #2: Sierra, for putting Rodberg in a position he obviously couldn't handle, in the PR dept.

    #3: The fans. Some fa

  • It should be mostly lip service anyway (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Mike Hawk ( 687615 ) on Wednesday September 03, 2003 @11:29PM (#6865779) Journal
    Sure there is a rep on the boards. But just for appearances one would hope.

    In my entire history of gaming and the internet, I've never seen a random forum suggestion get put into a retail game AND the result being something better that it already was.

    Very simply, if you put a PR guy in charge of your forums, make him a community yes man. "Uh-huh, we are also concerned about that". "Thats a good idea." "We are definitely exploring that."

    If the fan(boy)base was that adept at creating something, they would be industry and not the fanbase.

  • Banky: Stop the movie? What are you, crazy?
    Jay: All these assholes on the internet are calling us names because of this stupid fucking movie.
    Banky: That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously. Stopping the flick isn't gonna stop that.

  • You get what you deserve (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Korpo ( 558173 )
    There are enough games and developers that deserve being flamed.

    E.g. Strategy First (publisher) and Paradox (designer) for Hearts Of Iron. Being a WW2 simulation/strategy game, it offers a lot of advantages over other games of the same kind, but those advantages could not recompense one for the fact that after several patches the game basic principles were neither balanced nor did work well. There were tons of bugs, the AI was inept to the extreme, and even CTDs were rather common in the first revisions. T

  • Alex and Sierra (Score:2, Informative)

    by Tnylr ( 306225 )
    I used to work with Alex. First off, he's more of a Brand Manager/MARketing WEASel than PR.

    Second, he's been marketting games and interacting with communities for a long time. (IMO) A lot of why he does community relations is that he likes being part of the community since he's a big gamer himself. I'm unsure if it's even (a big) part of his job description- though that doesn't excuse anything.

    I found it quite odd to see his comment. It's not something I'd expect him to write. Though I'm betting Sierra ma
  • I see fans as a double edged sword. There are some incredible people out there playing and appreciating games. Then there are some that make you wonder if the long hours and draining work is worth it. In the end, if it's possible, the best course of action is to usually ignore the trolls and listen to the people that have real feedback both positive and negative.
  • Man oh man I know what this guy means... The thing is that the internet is pretty much pure freakin sin. It doesn't take any work to do anything on the internet, talk, have a place, attempt to join a community, and the penalty's for "messing up" or being a "bad person" are minimal. The thing is that you can awlays start over, easy squeezy lemon peezy. Especially the new kids with no experience, they just come in and do whatever the hell they want without knowing what they're doing. I especially see this k

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