On Religious Violence And Videogame Violence 143
Thanks to the IGDA for its 'Culture Clash' column discussing the violent nature of many religious texts, and how that relates to religious criticism of game violence. The piece references The Passion Of The Christ, mentioning: "The film's portrayal of the delight these men took in administering the scourging draws an alarming parallel to some claims that video games desensitize young people to violence." It then goes on to argue: "The history of opposition to games is a long one, and religion is often used to justify that opposition, though naysayers tend to ignore the fact that religion itself is a major source of violent acts", before concluding: "Frankly, the arguments for and against violence in games, as in any entertainment media, must be assessed in context or not at all."
but of course (Score:5, Interesting)
CJC
Re:but of course (Score:1, Insightful)
Whoah, hang on a second there. The crusades and the inquisition were political things - the crusades were used by the Pope as an attempt to hold on to political power in the face of growing nationalism, and the Spanish Inquisition was basically an early version of McCarthyism, i.e. targetted at political dissidents. I assure you, no knight of the crusades had anything more holy than his own enrichment in mind, and no inqui
Re:but of course (Score:5, Informative)
Sorry but that's total dross. Most inquisitors were really very devout. Some of their diaries make fascinating reading. They really believed that a little pain on Earth was better than eternal torment. The dissidents targeted were primarily religious - the huguenots and other early protestants.
The Catholic church of that time was a perfect example of how large scale religion and politics are indistinguishable. Little changes when we see Islamic fundamentalism locking horns with American Christian fundamentalism. Both are primitive regressive forms of their respective religions, but both are dominant and driven by politics as much as faith and both are leading to massacre and bloodshed of the innocents in the middle.
Re:but of course (Score:2, Interesting)
The Inquisition started as a way to root out heretics, but once the various political leaders saw it working, they began to take control of it for their own purposes.
Only the focus changed, not the cruelty, but it did change.
Re:but of course (Score:2)
IIRC, the New England witch trials were mostly localized to Salem. The hysteria started to spread, and one other nearby
Re:but of course (Score:5, Funny)
How is it that you can assure us that "no knight of the crusades had anything more holy than his own enrichment in mind?"
Who are you- Mel Gibson?
Re:but of course (Score:2)
The crusades went on for hundreds of years and resulted in the murders of tens of thousands of people. The Spanish Inquisition lasted over 300 years and resulted in the murder of 300,000 people.
But in 1994 alone, the Hutus slaughtered 800,000 Tutsis in Rwanda. Mao Tse Tung's regime massacred 26.3 million Chinese between 1949 and May 1965. By 1971, about 62 million Chinese had been murdered.
Re:but of course (Score:2)
more people died from acts of god than any of man's puny attempts
Re:but of course (Score:2)
I tend to agree with you that the violence in most games is pretty much harm less. I loved Quake, Doom, Halflife, and unreal. However when the games loose any moral sence I have a problem. The GTA games come to mind. Truth is kids would be better of without games that make it a vitue to kill, lie, cheat, or steal. Truth be known it would also be better for kids to get of there butts and go to the beach, ride their bik
Re:correction (Score:1)
Re:correction (Score:2)
With all this bitching about how religion X is so gory and religion Y is peaceful and video games make people violent satanists and religious lunatics are hypocrites and bla bla bla, I got to thinking.
I wonder whether training a whole generation of pimply high school students on proper counterterrorism tactics wouldn't actually be a pretty handy thing to have around when your civilization is under threat from bomb carrying suicidal maniacs?
Re:correction (Score:1, Funny)
Re:correction (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re:correction (Score:3, Funny)
Re:correction (Score:2)
Re:correction (Score:2)
That's akin to saying: "Nazism is primarily a Jewish construct... an embrace and a rejection of the Jewish diaspora.". i.e. Vague nonsense.
Be clearer with your words.
Re:correction (Score:2)
At the very least, heaven and hell are mentioned in Isaiah and Satan in Job.
Re:correction (Score:2)
Yes, they are mentioned in the old testament, but ask any Rabbi about an afterlife (or ressurection). You'll likely get a different answer depending on the Rabbi, but I've pretty consistently been asked the same question back "what do you think?".
Re:correction (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:correction (Score:2)
While what the bible "says" is interesting, in this context, it's more important how it's widely interpreted however. What the bible "says" is hardly relevant anyway, because it's a translation of a translation (unless you speak Aramaic as well as other really old languages). Our current bible is already an interpretation (because you can't translate without interpreting, especially when
Re:correction (Score:2)
Having said that though...
> Our current bible is already an interpretation
> (because you can't translate without
Re:correction (Score:2)
No way, dude. When you translate, you interpret -- on a far different level than this discussion (that's a bad comparison, anyway). We are writing in the same language, and we are communicating in the same time span (not 1200 years apart), the message is relativly clear. (And I'm not 100% certain about the time differential here)
Re:correction (Score:2)
Re:correction (Score:2)
> by the prophets as well (which kind of makes it hearsay, doesn't it?)...
Yes. God's word was _recorded_ by the prophets. Which brings me to the point I made: All communication involves interpretation, and serious people can do a pretty good job at both. Regarding your comment about "hearsay", scripture itself has a very objective test of it's own validity when it was being recorded:
Deut. 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if
religion as argument.. (Score:1, Interesting)
it can be used to justify *any* opinion about *anything* and it has been used too. yealous about your neighbour? well your neighbour obviously did a pact with the devil and must die! well not that straightforward most of the time but you get the point.. one should be wary of any unfounded argument pulled from somebodys hat, no matter who he is(as made up arguments against something are usually just something used to enforce supersti
Re:religion as argument.. (Score:2)
Re:religion as argument.. (Score:2)
Re:religion as argument.. (Score:1)
People need to stop giving good religions a bad name.
Re:religion as argument.. (Score:2)
An idea for a game. (Score:3, Funny)
You'll play jesus come again (voiced by Willem DeFoe), wreaking havoc in Jerusalem by converting people.
Using a shotgun and a Katana.
You'll get to drive a flaming chariot and turn water into funk.
Re:An idea for a game. (Score:2)
I'd buy it.
Christ vs. Doom (Score:5, Insightful)
I think, though, that there still is a fundamental difference between media like Passion of the Christ and a violent game.
In this particular movie, (though I have not seen it) I believe there was a message for people of religion, to look upon a man they believed in and see what he went through specifically for them. The violence was there as a tool to make people think in one specific way (as religion is so oft to do).
However in most games the violence either exists for the sake of violence itself (Doom; because its fun to blow up enemies), or merely as a more exciting vice for conflict (Counterstrike, which could be developed with nearly the same mechanics using a more innocent, but less gripping, theme).
Still, killer article. Glad to see people tackling such great subjects. True gaming journalism is NOT dead, it's just out of the limelight.
An Atheist Reviews The Passion of the Christ (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:An Atheist Reviews The Passion of the Christ (Score:2, Informative)
That aside, The Passion is not about the life of Jesus. The life of Jesus is the "curing of the sick", offering the "yoke that is not heavy", and the let's give everyone a present.
I didn't find
Re:An Atheist Reviews The Passion of the Christ (Score:3, Interesting)
So, does God lack free will, or does whatever God happens to do become, by definition, good?
If the former, why worship an automaton? If the latter, what makes God anything but the biggest bully on the block?
If God both has free will, and yet would never do evil, why not create humans with that remarkable trait from the start? It's obviously not logically contradictory...
Re:An Atheist Reviews The Passion of the Christ (Score:2)
I know I'm preaching to the choir as far as you're concerned, but I just want to comment on a common statement you made that we often hear in discussions on Christ. The following is something I've been thinking about lately, and this is as good an opportunity as any to put it into words and share it with a brother in Christ.
He
Re:An Atheist Reviews The Passion of the Christ (Score:2)
What a sweeping, ignorant statement. It's true that there's an anti-iconic tradition in Christianity, inherited from Judaism. But Christianity draws from other traditions as well.
There are over a billion people calling themselves Chrisitans, and they adhere to thousands of different denominations and sects. The generalizations you can make about all Christia
Re:Christ vs. Doom (Score:5, Funny)
Let me tell you a little story.
Once there were some people who, in the course of a foolish experiment, accidentally opened a way for the forces of hell to enter the world. Demons roamed the earth. Then one man came along and fought them. He descended into the very depths of hell, fighting demons all the way, and defeated the lord of all demons before making his escape.
Is that the plot for Doom, or is it the classic Christian stories of the Garden of Eden and the Harrowing of Hell? Why, it could be either! The only major differences between the two are that Christ doesn't use rocket launchers, while the Doom guy doesn't rescue the souls of virtuous Jews.
Now tell me again how violence in video games is different from violence in religious stories?
Re:Christ vs. Doom (Score:2)
Re:Christ vs. Doom (Score:1, Funny)
This topic always irks me (Score:3, Interesting)
You show me a gun that has a mouse and moniter to aim it with, and I'll show you a priest that doesn't molest children.
The fact is that the church simply uses the topic of games to force people to look away from it's real problems. One being that they lost their control over the world's countries. The second being that they have so much corruption in their system that it makes Windows look better alongside a Linux array.
Is there problems in some games? Of course, but that is why they are rated mature. You can't blame a developer like id because they develop a game that 95 percent of their fans enjoy but the other 5 percent is sue happy.
Bottom line, parents make sure your children play the games that are meant for them.
I'm glad my parents didn't enforce this rule on me, and look at me, I turned out alright... yeah...
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:1)
This argument neglects the fact that there are many children without parents, who do not have guidance from above on making moral choices based on 'media' they have in front of them.
It is for these children that traditional religion toils, as it always has, as anti-religion zealots seem all too ready to forget. The world is not a 3.5-children-per-house-picket-white-fence
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:1)
its not 'insinuation', its fact. there are a lot of un-parented kids in the world - do you really want generations to grow up, unsupervised, unguarded, with the notion that human slaughter, death and mayhem are a commercial substance made viable by our society and propagated?
society is already value-less enough as it is. why should our commercial art forms -only- be used to further debase these values even further?
i'm not for censorship and enforcement on the issue of culture and art-forms, but if there
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:1)
Stores should be held liable for selling a game to a kid much like movie thearters are held liable for bringing a minor into a R-rated movie. It's just that we've been de-sensitized by the whole movie scene and games are popping up now as a "newer" entertainment industry.
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:1)
Do you see kids killing people because they saw it in the movies? Yes - there have been. But was it later deemed the movie's fault, the publisher's fault, the movie thearter's fault?
Where's the limit of blame here? Instead of looking at the person who makes the game for a specif
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:1)
WTF? are we talking about moral human responsibility, or the New World Order? sig Heil, my sons & daughters, and don't show signs of disorder!
it is this 'coffeeshop psychology' that is the problem. morals don't allow people to scientificially and rigorously categorize each other and asses someones entire worth/value/behaviour on the basis of so-called 'empirical standards of behaviour
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:2, Insightful)
Our commercial art forms arent 'only' being used that way. There are plenty of non-violent, and even educational games out there (they just dont get as much press).
It is the parents, or guardians, job to watch over their children. It is their job to keep them from playing emotionally damaging video games at young ages.
If the children do not have this supe
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:1)
well, since society is actually composed of indidivuals who cannot exist without parents, its soooo easy to 'blame the parents for the child'.
society, and members of society, do have a responsibility for the raising and education of future generations. yes, this starts with the family and the parents, but above and beyond that, there is -still- a de
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:2)
Organized religion "toils" for no one but itself. It does "good works" simply to preserve what is left of its power.
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:3, Informative)
Troll troll troll (yet I'm biting).
First of all, you speak of Catholics, not Christians when you speak of 'corruption' with the priests and all. Not only that, but they HAVE been speaking against games long before that ever came up.
That being said, I'm a Christian (raised Catholic) that has played video games all my life. Its all about knowing the difference between fantasy and reality. I
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:1)
But yes, I was talking about Cathloics because that is what I relate to... my bad
Re:This topic always irks me (Score:2)
Heresy! Lets burn him at the stake!
Killing in the cause of Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
> religion (crusades, inquisitions etc)
More people have been killed in the cause of *xenophobia* than have been killed in the 'cause' of religion.
Christianity didn't tell the crusaders to slaughter all the men, women, and children in Jerusalem when they surrendered. It didn't tell them to rape the nuns when they took Constantinople in the 4th Crusade. Islam didn't tell the terrorists to fly a plane into a building.
Don't know enough about the Christian concept of a 'Just War', but there are several rules of engagement for combat in Islam:
- Treaties must be upheld.
- Cannot kill innocents/non-combatants.
- If the enemy seeks quarter, give it to them.
- Prisoners are never tortured, and fed well.
- Declaration of war unless you are occupied.
- Cannot destroy churches, synagogues, etc.
- Cannot destroy property, trees, animals, etc.
- Should try to reach an agreement first.
- No religious compulsion or coercion should ensue.
- Give prisoners of war a chance for freedom.
- Bury the dead with dignity.
The Qur'an describes those people who are permitted to fight:
[Quran 8:61]"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."
[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."
However frustration and the feeling of impotence makes people willing to believe anything. I don't think that religion is the cause of all evil - I think it's evil people that are the cause of all evil.
Re:Killing in the cause of Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Killing in the cause of Religion (Score:2)
Re:Killing in the cause of Religion (Score:1, Insightful)
Christianity didn't tell the crusaders to slaughter all the men, women, and children in Jerusalem when they surrendered. It didn't tell them to rape the nuns when they took Constantinople in the 4th Crusade. Islam didn't tell the terrorists to fly a plane into a building.
Sure. It's like the Onion story God Angrily Clarifies "Don't Kill" Rule [theonion.com].
Most major religions are like Flash for web development: 99% of the people involved cock it up, so it's difficult to not blame Flash. Same goes for religion: w
Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:5, Interesting)
"But Jesus said to him, 'Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.'" (Matthew 26:52)
"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.'" (John 18:36)
".. the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom
Is it fair to ask then why (if Christ's Kingdom isn't established yet) Christians have been fighting at all?
(It's a different case to discuss with Old Testament Israel who, according to the Bible, was actually a nation representing the Kingdom of God at that time.)
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:1)
I can claim to be a black man, but my appearance tells you that I'm lying. Others claim to be Christian, but their actions tell you they're lying. Find the people that are doing exactly as the Bible commands, and you'll have found true Christians.
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:1)
How about if we all base our values on what's best for society, instead of trying to follow some documents cooked up to control the populace thousands of years ago.
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:5, Informative)
Christians are not bound by Old Testament laws, so no stoning is required
How about if we all base our values on what's best for society, instead of trying to follow some documents cooked up to control the populace thousands of years ago.
This is one of the silliest objections to Christianity - you realize that the people who "cooked up" the New Testament all died as martyrs, right? Also, what is wrong with the central Christian value of "love your neighbor as yourself"? Seems like if eveyone followed that value, then there wouldn't be problems with society. This society has major problems because people are selfish and lazy, not because of Christianity.
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:2)
What's wrong with it is that most people completely misunderstand it. Most people at best think that it means "love the guy in the house/apartment next to me (if that), and some arbitrary people I choose, and to Hell with everyone else -- they're not my problem."
--Jeremy
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:2)
This does beg the question why the Old Testament is part of the Bible, then. The real argument should be that Christians are bound by Old Testament except where the New Testament contravenes it, but even that comes up inaccurate. And still, it's not very difficult to find statements in the New Testament that require appalling behavior.
> This is one of the silliest objections to Christianity - you realize that the people
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:3, Insightful)
The Old Testament is fully the word of God and is what s being referred to when Paul writes in 2 Timothy that 'All scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebu
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:2)
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:2)
such examples of "appalling behavioir" are usually willfully taken out of context. The fact is that the central message of the NT is love - God's love for man, and how men s
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:2)
I have read the New Testament (and the Old Testament) quite a few times, both when I was involved in the church an
Re:Christian Rules of Engagement (Score:2)
Almost exclusively for temporal concerns--such as "Ceaser told me to" or "these invaders are trying to kill us" or "we can't get to the holy land to pray anymore."
Christian??? Rules of Engagement (Score:1)
I think a better question is: why don't we call them on their claims of being proper [Christians|Muslims|*]? They say that "the less a politician amounts to, the more he loves the flag." A similar parallel could be drawn to the Shakespearean observation, "The Devil can cite scripture for his purpose."
I put it to you (nay, everybody) that most people responsible for the crap going on today are sh
Re:Killing in the cause of Religion (Score:2, Informative)
That's the funny thing. There isn't any.
As an Arab Christian myself, I'm glad.
Points Raised (Score:5, Interesting)
There were two really good points in the article:
I've always thought people who oppose games just don't like to have fun. They see it as wasteful.
And while I'm not comparing the Bible to a video game, it's worth noting that those games which don't get much attention from pro-censors fit their violence into the overall milieu of the game, just as the Bible fits violence into its context.
This is very interesting - the games cited as examples (Max Payne, etc...) do a very good job of making the violence as part of the story line.
Re:Points Raised (Score:5, Interesting)
However, I didn't get the impression this was based on religion.
There are people out there opposed to games, and they'll be opposed to them even when the only games available are "Pink Pony Princesses in Powder Puff World."
Re:Points Raised (Score:5, Funny)
And why wouldn't they? The title is:
Re:Points Raised (Score:1)
Re:Points Raised (Score:2)
Sodom and Gomorrah 2.0 now with beastiality.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Sodom and Gomorrah 2.0 now with beastiality.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Rockstar Games presents: The Passion of the Christ (Score:1, Flamebait)
Making Up Problems? (Score:4, Interesting)
In this article, Matt Sakey fails to show how religion is against video game violence in the first place! When it comes down to actually showing hard examples as to how religion is against violence in videogames, he doesn't really have anything. This doesn't prevent him from pointing out the hypocrisy of religion, though. Take for example the quote aforementioned in the Slashdot article: "The history of opposition to games is a long one, and religion is often used to justify that opposition, though naysayers tend to ignore the fact that religion itself is a major source of violent acts". Matt never does say exactly when religion was used to justify opposition in video games.
I'm not arguing against Matt Sakey's article because I'm religious. In fact, I'm an atheist. But, I think that Matt just had a bone to pick with relgion as opposed to a strong debate pointing out religion's opposition to video game violence, an opposition that he never did show to exist.
Re:Making Up Problems? (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree. I'm a Christian involved in youth ministry, and I don't see any sort of conflict between games and God. Games are just something to do when you're bored - there isn't some spiritual/ephemeral component to them.
Re:Making Up Problems? (Score:1)
Re:Making Up Problems? (Score:2, Interesting)
Seems pretty underhanded.... (Score:2, Funny)
Oh boy! I can't wait for Coverting the Heathens IV: This time, its Biblical ;) Maybe the lead developer on that game would be Ned Flanders.
That does sound a little scary, though. Religions are having trouble reaching youths, so
Re:Seems pretty underhanded.... (Score:2)
Religion and gaming (Score:5, Insightful)
This got me thinking...
Aren't "bible-belt" communities going to be more likely to ostracise and condemn those who don't fit into their own (fairly narrow) pattern of social behaviour? Aren't they, whether well-meaningly or maliciously, going to make life worse for those who, as they go through an extremely difficult stage in anybody's life, find themselves as outsiders? Aren't these religious groups and communities actually the real "pressure cooker" that create the environment in which these events can occur?
Maybe these fine, upstanding religious groups are so eager to blame computer games because it stops the finger of blame pointing where it really should... at themselves.
Re:Religion and gaming (Score:4, Interesting)
Aye matey! Well said. There was a study I heard about on the radio recently (how's that for credibility?) that suggested the school gun rampages we've been hearing about happened predominantly in smaller communities with high levels of intolerance for difference. I've 'done time' living in bible belt communities and the mental homogeneity gives me the creeps, it's no wonder people crack.
Another huge issue in small-town and rural middle america and canada: sexual abuse, particularly incest, is much more of a problem than people realize, as these homogenized communities are also very good at secrets. Now where did I put my [virtual] M16?
Don't worry, be happy.
Re:Religion and gaming (Score:2)
Clockwork Orange (Score:2, Funny)
Yahweh has no room to criticize violence (Score:2, Insightful)
http://www.gutenberg.net/etext05/web0610
Unilateral agression. Conquest. Pillage. Rape. Genocide.
All _directly_commanded_ by God.
Re:Yahweh has no room to criticize violence (Score:5, Interesting)
After reading the text in question, I see no reference to rape. In fact, not even the Skeptic's Annotated Bible [skepticsan...dbible.com] entry on Joshua has a reference. Could you perhaps give a more succinct citation?
Re:Yahweh has no room to criticize violence (Score:2)
You are correct; I was mistaken. Samuel does not mention rape.
The Lord commanded Joshua to kill every one of the land's
inhabitants, men, women, and children, with the edge of the sword.
I was conflating Samue's account with the earlier conquest
in Numbers, where God commands the Chosen People to enslave
the virgin daughters of their enemies
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? . . . Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman
that hath known man by lying
Re:Yahweh has no room to criticize violence (Score:2)
"Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the council of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord." (KJV, pronounciation symbols omitted)
Without a graduate course on what role the council of Balaam had in these matters, or who Peor was and
Re:Yahweh has no room to criticize violence (Score:2)
One problem you get when speaking math with an Art professor is getting hung up on the minor details the Art professor is getting wrong while ignoring the major point. While Joshua may be lacking in rapes, he could have been referring to:
Genesis 19:8
Judges 5:30
Re:Yahweh has no room to criticize violence (Score:2)
Judges 5:30 - It is not clear whether the speaker is Sisera's mother or her "wise ladies," but it is clear that the phrase is pure speculation, and does not demonstrate a general approval of rape.
Judges 19:25 - Like the instance of Lot offering his daughter, this is me
Religion doesn't cause violence (Score:4, Insightful)
People cause war. We may use religion as an excuse, but I think people that wage war--at least in the name of Christianity--are adhering more to the word of man than the word of God. Unfortunately, favoring the word of man over the word of God seems to be the standard MO for most religious people today.
Re:Religion doesn't cause violence (Score:2)
"favoring the word of man over the word of God seems to be the standard MO for most religious people today"
I agree. The word of man is all a religous person has. Who shows a person religion? Who interprets religous teachings for children? Who writes holy books? People do. So, it is far too natural f
Re:Religion doesn't cause violence (Score:2)
I don't listen to Pastor Bob. Pastor Bob is a luddite imbecile who lusts after his 16 year old step daughter.
In Context (Score:2, Insightful)
Violence in Christian
Re:Hmmm, can't recall the last time a gamer... (Score:1)