Online Game Event Sparks Player Riot 758
Grimwell Online is carrying a story entitled When does an Online Game go too far?. It details a post to a news group about a world event in the newly released A Tale in the Desert 2. The online game, which simulates an ancient Egyptian culture, was full of angry players after a developer-run event used openly discriminatory language against the female gender. Details on the event can be found at the ATITD2 Wiki, and commentary can be found on TerraNova.
Whaaaaa! (Score:4, Insightful)
This is just more of that post-modern victim shit. Some chicks got bent outta shape because a CHARACTER in a GAME set in ANCIENT EGYPT didn't treat their characters like empowered 21st century soccer-moms.
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Insightful)
A few links to illustrate that what happens in a game, or can be caused by a game, can actually touch the real world:
Everquest Widows unite [techtv.com]
City of Heroes players honor Christopher Reeve [slashdot.org]
Note that many of these articles, while mentioned here on Slashdot, also have links to "other" news outlets, such as Gamespot, CNN, etc. In addition, games like GTA 3 have gotten a lot of press lately, even in the mainstream media. Do
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Interesting)
I've never played one of these games in my life. They are "after my time" as the saying goes. However, not only do I defend my statement, but I would take my point further to say that *any* game (online or not) that featured a game character treating the player in a racist, sexi
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:4, Funny)
Anything that happens *in*...IN an online game.
Not "Evercrack is popular...". Not "Half Life 2 might actually exist".
Show me "DrAgOnSbAnE has joined the R0XX0R clan after six days of intense IM-based negotiation!". Or perhaps "xxx_Dave92383482_xxx finally reached Level 2 after defeating a rat in a grand battle of the ages!"
Show me something like that and I'll retract my assertion.
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Interesting)
I started losing interest in Star Wars: Galaxies right around the time of the Imperial Crackdown. It was supposed to really kick things up and create tensions between the factions. As a Doctor, I resolved that from the time following the Imperial invasions (scripted within the game, meant to cause a lot of death and panic among only a certain population of the game), that I would henceforth only provide my services to Rebels. Imperials or neutrals were out of luck. Well, a neutral could get service if I could be assured by a trusted source that they were truly neutral and not a covert Imperial. I should explain, to those not familiar with the game, that the services of a Doctor are very much in demand, and practically taken as a right by many players. It's hard to be known as a Doctor, because you are constantly plagued with people sending
So, quite a lot of people got very pissed off, and some were accusing me of being exactly like a racist. A racist?? This is a fucking war, people! The problem was that so many players regularly socialized with people of whatever faction relative to their own. I don't know what the factions were really for other than those that particularly sought PvP action. Everybody just sort of picked a side, and picked their friends and business associates independantly of that. None of the Rebels were upset of course, none of them pointed out any unfairness, as they were getting the service. Only the people who were refused service that they felt they had some kind of right to, as equally paying customers of the game, not even considering their characters or the environment we were playing in. Or even considering that this is service rendered by a player, a person not obligated to do JACK SHIT for anyone else at all. They just started screaming "racist!" and other stupidity. Not very much roleplaying going on there at all, and just to get some peace I had to revoke my policy after a mere two days. I did manage to start an ongoing war between my guild and an Imperial guild though, with a related action. That was pretty satisfying, even though they handed our asses to us a lot, that wasn't the point.
Anyhow, I wasn't happy with the fact that the whole game world there is just too comfortable for everyone. "It is a period of civil war", what the hell is wrong with acting like it? Everything, apparently.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Interesting)
The trick is to ensure that the bigotry is part of a plot or sub-plot, and can be dealt with in one way or another. For
He was SUPPOSED to be nasty (Score:4, Interesting)
Consider the name MALakai -- base being mal ('bad' in french, and latin/greek -- think MALadjusted).and it turned out that many of the people who traded with him ended up losing what they traded for to begin with (so the women refused service were proabably better off for it).
I've played in a live RPG where I came this close to being randomly attacked by a friggin GM, had an arm turned into a tentacle and told that I'd fallen in love with another character who my most recent interaction with resulted in both of us being dead. -- and that's just game creatures (introduced by the company who ran the game).
Nasty occurences are meant to be part of any good RPG. How people respond to such distrubances is IMHO more important (malakai was (rightly) hounded out of the country).
That the ATITD community ejected the cad the way they did says more (IMHO) about the game than that he was inserted into the plot.
I can't get any hard data on just how bad the 'riots' were, but I get a feeling that a reaction like that was intended.
Certain real-world storylines have no place (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:He was SUPPOSED to be nasty (Score:3, Informative)
It's hebrew for mesenger. Also commonly used for "angels".
Re:Define irony. (Score:5, Funny)
As in:
"Who was at the party last night?"
"Oh, just some chicks & dudes you don't know."
Because, like all men, when I say chick, I really mean "subservient ovary."
Again, more of that victim shit. You react as if I've slapped my own mother (or yours, perhaps) across the face by using the word "chick". Ludicrous. The 90's called, they want their Politically Correct hypersensitivity back.
Re:Define irony. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Define irony. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Insightful)
They weren't "slaves". This is some man projecting his fanta
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:4, Insightful)
Just to point something out, no one said they were slaves. And regardless of how much the game is based on ancient egypt and what rights women did or did not have in ancient egypt, the character in question was from somwhere _other_ than ancient egypt. Someplace where the men view all women as slaves, or at least so subservient to them as makes no difference.
Therefore no criticism based on what things were like in real or imagined ancient egypt is relevant.
Furthermore it's possible that it was "some man projecting his fantasies of enslaved women onto the game," but it's also possible that it was a good GM playing an NPC in the way that was appropriate to that character's background and personality, regardless of his own feelings on the matter. Also note that the character in question is presented as a theif and wanted criminal, not exactly the most sympathetic presentation. Perhaps the focus on female slavery in his character was intended to make people dislike him rather than as an endorsement of enslaved women.
Now whether or not you want to play a game in which characters/events like that take place is entirely up to you. However the presence of a certain culture or mindset in any work of art is not necessarily an endoresement of that culture or mindset. There is the entire branch of dystopian fiction which involves setting up the kind of society the author wouldn't wish to live in for the purpose of showing how bad that society is, a form that at least feminist author has used.
So continue on with your argument, but try to tone down the hyperbole and stick to the known facts please.
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/theme
If you were going to be honest in your plagiarism, you would have gotten to:
"but women are seen to be dancers, musicians, acrobats, sacred 'prostitutes', maids, kitchen staff, field workers and much, much more."
You should have plagiarized "Women's Education and Career" and "Women and the Law". Of course, your choice of plagiarism source doesn't go into the legal aspects, which I focused on, which were *very* progressive toward women (as I mentioned, even guaranteeing equal pay for equal work; they could also offer testimony for trials, start legal proceedings, determine inheritance for her children, etc).
Here's the summary of the article that you plagiarized:
"Egyptian women had a free life, compared to her contemporaries in other lands. She wasn't a feminist, but she could have power and position if she was in the right class. She could hold down a job, or be a mother if she chose. She could live by herself or with her family. She could buy and sell to her hearts content. She could follow the latest fashions or learn to write if she had the chance. She loved and laughed and ate and drunk. She partied and got sick. She helped her husband, she ran her household. She lived a similar life to that of her mother and grandmother in accordance with ma'at. She was an ancient Egyptian woman with hopes and dreams of her own... not too much different we woman of today. "
Seriously - how dishonest can you get? No surprise that you posted as AC.
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, please don't lump all hyper-sensitive morons with those of us on the "left" that actually believe in the first amendment and I'll try to remember that not all of you on the "right" are racist, ignorant, religious fanatics. Deal?
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Interesting)
So let me get this straight (Score:5, Insightful)
So when somebody verbally abuses your fantasy character, why not draw a weapon, say something like, "I'm no slave, take that back or stand and fight," and let the game proceed? Other like-minded players could join the fight on your side, and you might have a really interesting evening of role-playing rather than a group hissy fit.
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, they MIGHT have included something like that in ATITD2 but I can't find it on their web page and their Wiki is Slashdotted.
But you're a smart guy, so I'm sure you can do us a public service
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Insightful)
Did the game promise to NOT test you? Did it promise to be absolutely boring and never ever offensive in any way? That there would NEVER be conflict and that everything would be (boring) fuzzy happy bunnies? Did it promise that, being based on human interaction (in a frickin' ROLEPLAYING game) would be totally neutral and without any color or spice? Did it promise that the universe would be peopled entirely by nothing but sameness and blandness? Did it promise that the roleplaying would actually REALLY be roleplaying and would just be some glorified, graphical, and HEAVILY moderated chat room?
If you don't want to eat simulated shit, don't play roleplaying games because somewhere, sometime you will end up being fed shit, but then...it's just a damn ROLEPLAYING game!
Get into the ROLE and forget your modern sensibilities. Sheesh.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Funny)
But if you do understand what "post-modern" means, then you'll be the first such person that I've ever met.
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:3, Insightful)
If I had a dime for every fool who reads another "respected" fool's redefinition of a perfectly good word, I could afford to have all such fools taken out and shot.
"Deconstruct"? To take apart.
"Postmodernism"? Get back to me in 30 years, meaningless otherwise.
Your author-of-the-week may have different ideas, but if you have the purpose of using words to communic
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:4, Insightful)
"Postmodernism"? Get back to me in 30 years, meaningless otherwise.
The first, besides the straight-forward definition you give above, also has a pretty specific technical meaning in contemporary philosophy (which was defined by Derrida!). This latter meaning of the word was what I was referring to. Sorry if that wasn't obvious enough.
Your author-of-the-week may have different ideas, but if you have the purpose of using words to communicate
My point exactly. Thanks. Throwing terms around casually without thinking about what they actually mean (in the context they are being used!) dilutes the value of the word so that it becomes meaningless. That was what I was trying to point out to the original poster.
I always get a little confused by people calling others "pretentious twits" in situations like this. Since this is /., I'll assume you work with computers (if you don't, nothing really changes, just the details). "Memory" has specific connotations when you're talking about computers. If you hear someone talking about computer memory, would you attempt to correct them and tell them that they are using that word in a a non-traditional way? I'm pretty sure the etymology of the word doesn't have anything to do with RAM, after all. Would you call them pretentious twits for trying to "posture themselves" by using a technical jargon? No, that would be idiocy. Would you go up to a scientist and call them pretentious twits for using the word "charm" to describe a quantum property? I mean, stick with English, right?
On the other hand, if someone was talking about computers, and used "memory" to refer to hard-drive space, you might correct them. Because they would be using the word incorrectly for the context.
Anyways, whatever. The original poster used the word postmodern in a sense that was completely meaningless. That was all I was trying to point out.
Re:Whaaaaa! (Score:5, Funny)
Were they really women? (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously, though, this guy could end up with a lawsuit on his hands. I think he would be wise to issue a public apology pretty soon.
A good experience (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're just playing the game to have some fun, and don't care about historical "accuracy" or at least realism, this would be annoying and possibly offensive.
If you're playing it to experience a world, I think it's completely in line. Slavery, racism, and sexual discrimination are all part of history (and our world today), and being confronted with them in a online gaming experience could be much more powerful than, for example, reading in your textbook that Denmark abolished the African slave trade in 1803.
Re:A good experience (Score:5, Insightful)
So, if the gamemaster starts ignoring the community rules, then you have problems. In these instances, the gamemaster needs to be clear up front about how he/she is going to play the game and also state why it will be different from the community standards so that those who don't agree have the option to not play. For instance, in this case, the gamemaster should have been upfront and said that he was going to be portraying ancient Egypt in a true-to-life manner, so any characters that would have been of slave status in that time period may be treated that way in the game. If the gamemaster is doing this for educational purposes, it's great, because roleplaying is a great way to learn about things in a very personal manner.
However, if he was just playing the game this way for non-educational purposes, just entertainment for himself, then I question his ethics. Roleplaying as a Nazi or slave trader for purely entertainment purposes is not what I would consider a healthy mentality. Doing so to spark discussion on issues of race and gender discrimination is fine, but again, it needs to be stated upfront that this is what's happening.
Re:A good experience (Score:5, Insightful)
To me it's just a classic good vs. evil situation, the more evil, the more interesting the situation is.
It's the same thing as when asked actors and actresses generally agree that playing evil characters is much more rewarding and, yes, fun, because they get to express themselves more than playing a do-gooder, generally speaking.
Would Star Wars have been the same without Darth Vader, an archetype of evil? No, it would have not. His presence made the movie much more entertaining, by far. Does that make George Lucas sick? Don't answet that...
Re:A good experience (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/women_in_
Ancient Egypt? (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe they were just going for authenticity?
Re:Ancient Egypt? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Ancient Egypt? (Score:5, Insightful)
According to the article, it's an online game and one of the developers made a plot character that refused to trade with women, calling them slaves, etc...
Apparently he just wanted to bring out the fact that in ancient egypt, the role of women wasn't exactly like it is today, but a bunch of women are standing on their "right not to be offended by anyone, even in a game" and quitting.
Re:Ancient Egypt? (Score:4, Informative)
--
Evan
Re:Ancient Egypt? (Score:4, Insightful)
Never assume that just because you don't hear about it, it's not happening.
Re:Ancient Egypt? (Score:5, Insightful)
Which feminists are you talking about? Feminists are about the only group that routinely complain about the treatment of women in muslim societies. If you don't believe me, take a course at your local uni or talk to an actual feminist, not some woman you know complaining about models.
Re:Ancient Egypt? (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem here is that you don't really understand feminism. A lot of feminists support a woman's right to appear in sexy ads to her heart's content, as long as she is in control of her career. What they object to is not the women involved in modeling, but the peddling of unrealistic images of beauty for women. Also the implication in beer ads that women are not actual people, but merely objects for sexual gratification. Furthermore, few feminists would advocate actually censoring such imagery, but merely attempt to speak out at let people hear that there may be other ways to look at things.
But I get what you are saying. Liberals don't hate muslims enough.
Re:Ancient Egypt? (Score:3)
Still, it's just a game, and it's HIS game. No matter how much of a dick the guy is he can do as pleases. If some people are upset by this they can always NOT PLAY. It's that simple. If they're motivated, the
Re:Yes (Score:5, Funny)
It's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made or iron [bbc.co.uk].
Stupid bitches (Score:3, Funny)
A whine cellar.
Re:Stupid bitches (Score:3, Funny)
Best mod ever!
Re:No it wasn't. (Score:2)
Re:Stupid bitches (Score:4, Funny)
Sad state of affairs (Score:3, Insightful)
What was the average age of the participants? I suspect that this nonsense was bred entirely from immaturity.
I mean really, who besides a child (mentally) gets so spun up over a game?? I thought they were supposed to be fun!
Have I missed something?
Re:Sad state of affairs (Score:3, Interesting)
While you may
Been there, done that (Score:5, Interesting)
As an in-game device to create tension and conflict; awesome. Job well done.
Never offend your audience... (Score:5, Insightful)
You should know better when designing something from a broad base that if you offend people, those are potential customers you won't get. Turn away too many potential customers and yhou won't have enough actual customers to make anything work.
Uhmm.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Player-Based (Score:5, Insightful)
There's been a lot of people using racial slurs on gaming servers lately. It's a shame that it's so widespread and that very few people say anything when it occurs during gameplay. I miss the days when you'd hear "nice shot" or "good luck" on a server instead of a bunch of insults.
You're not playing the right games, perhaps. (Score:3, Insightful)
*Usually* the name calling, throwing a pissy fit, and the general hate comes from young boys. They have a lot of rage, and they can take it out in online games without fear of reprecussions.
I've been playing online games for many years now. Back with KALI + Descent 2, through UT and Tactical Ops, and through OU, EQ, and now EQ2. The crap's the same. It'll always be there. But in some places, it's
Views of a player (Score:4, Interesting)
Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm tired of whitewashing history (will I be flamed by those who would consider that a racist remark?). Bad things happen, people were enslaved, tortured, killed, etc, based on pretty much anything. It was bad, we know that, lets move on, but lets also not forget that it happened.
Game publishers, programmers and authors should be applauded for being willing to tackle issues present in the period they choose to set their work, it is a difficult and tricky business.
Perhapps users could/(should?) be warned during charecter creation that their chosen avatar will effect game play, heck, list it as a feature. If you play female some NPCs wont trade with you, if you play a white guy you won't be able to jump, if you play someone of X decent you will be better at Y, etc.
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Whats the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing is ALL RPG's do this already, with fantasy races and classes. There were lots of MUDS that I played where if you were an Orge or a Drow or a Giant, some of the NPC vendors wouldn't sell you anything, and if you were Evil you'd get jumped by city guards. It went with the territory. Yet whenever anyone tries to aplly this to gender especially people become very angry. Its a huge double standard.
Slashdot bias against this article....? (Score:5, Funny)
Perfectly acceptable given circumstances (Score:5, Insightful)
The incident in question (for those who didnt RTFA) involves a game event where a staff-controlled character, a merchant, travelled the world and traded with people. Females were treated as slaves - which, given the place and time that this role playing game portrays, was not necessarily an inaccurate representation. Should a game whose purpose is roleplaying (and to an extent, re-enactment) set thousands of years ago, represent modern day values? That is up for the players to decide. They took for granted modern day values, but never passed any laws to enforce them (which was entirely within their power).
So when an event-character comes along, behaving perfectly appropriately given the location, era, and currently enacted laws - yet inappropriately given modern day values - people are expressing outrage...
If the players wish to truly do something, a riot is the wrong way to go. This is a game that they have control over, and this was a challenge that was presented to them in game and should be met in-game. The players should use the legal system within the game to pass an equal rights act and abolish slavery.
Keep it in-game, where it belongs.
Re:Perfectly acceptable given circumstances (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Perfectly acceptable given circumstances (Score:3)
On a somewhat off-note, don't a lot of fantasy games put up barriers between some of the races? Elves and dwarves not getting along, etc. Should I complain next time next time Boulder's Gate doesn't give my dwarf character the same good deal the elven one got?
It's a shame people are so sensitive. Yes, I know it's difficult for me to understand not being in a minority, but I don't get offended when I read on how early settlers in this nation were discriminated against.
It wa
Re:Not if you pay money and cant play (Score:4, Informative)
They were trading for general everyday (in-game) commodities. The whole point of the merchant event was mostly role-playing as well.
Check your facts, cowardly anonymous (Score:5, Informative)
That is debated among historians. While Egypt did have female rulers, it does not appear that women were equal among the working masses
What isn't debated among historians is that women in many other parts of the world in that day and age were not treated at all equally, and indeed were treated as property/slaves/etc by many cultures.
Had you RTFAed, you would have noticed that the character being played was not from Egypt, he was from a distant land. Historically, the odds that said culture would be sexist as hell (to put it mildly) were quite high.
As others noted, the players took modern day equal rights for granted. Something they really shouldn't be doing, in reality today with Bush et. al. bent on rolling women's rights back to pre-1960s status, and certainly not in a role playing game set in ancient Egypt.
Riotinig (in game or otherwise) is so asinine
Morons! (Score:5, Insightful)
As a role player, I've played racist character (both for human races and various clans and/or species), sexist characters (try playing a 150 year old vampire from the deep south with*out* being racist and sexist), sadist, psychotic, mentally deficient, masochist, martyr, zealots of various natures, and members of the opposite sex plus a dozen races, species and creature types.
What the *hell* do they think role playing is?
Role playing the concentration camps of WWII results in some very dark moments and the introspection lasts long after the game is over - much the same as reading a powerful novel or history of the era. It makes for powerful literature, which is what role playing can be. The strong themes of discrimination exist historically, and since much of role play (including this work) often pulls from history, to exclude those aspects is to whitewash who we are and have been as human beings.
--
Evan
Re:Morons! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Morons! (Score:3, Interesting)
There was a long discussion/flame-war on rec.games.frp.dnd about this - specifically, what to do when something in-game ceases to b
Openly discriminatory language? (Score:2)
Hmmm (Score:4, Insightful)
I understand that a large number of people seem to think that speech that falls outside of their personally "acceptable" boundaries should be prohibited, and sadly, a number of craven legislators have catered to this intellectually empty point of view.
Sticks and stones, stupid. If you don't like it, maybe you could simply turn off the computer? Vote with your feet. Play another game perhaps?
Re:Hmmm (Score:3, Insightful)
Common misconception. The Bill of Rights does not give *YOU* the right to do anything. What it does do is tell *CONGRESS* that they're not allowed to infringe on the rights that all people already have. Repeat after me:
riot? how? (Score:5, Interesting)
What?
Speaking as a player... (Score:5, Informative)
Essentially what happened was this guy was a trader, and his presence in an area was announced over the global channel. Thus, people came and lined up in the dozens/hundredish to see him.
Eventually one of the women stepped up to her place in line, the guy asked her 'Who is your master, woman?', and from there the righteous indignation began.
Players littered the area by dropping piles of sand and mud, filled the NPC's inventory (thus preventing him from moving) by giving him tons of sand, lit bonfires, spammed the chat channel constantly, etc. Eventually the NPC was forced to withdraw.
The ultimate motivation, as it has been said, was to pose a moral challenge to the players of the game. Do they trade with the nasty sexist NPC, or do they spurn him and his rare and exotic goods?
Personally I found the whole reaction to the event beyond pathetic. People rioted and basically trashed the area around the trader, but after that they went and bitched and moaned for 20ish pages on the message boards about how the developers were at fault, how they were so offended, how they were cancelling their accounts, blah blah blah. Pitiful.
This is nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
explanation of event (Score:5, Interesting)
female power (Score:3, Funny)
realism indeed (Score:4, Insightful)
Should games take realism to the extent that they deny basic "current" human rights?
Human rights are denied to the tune of millions around the globe each day. Can gamers truthfully cry foul when their "virtual human rights" are impinged? Go spend some time in Saudi Arabia as a woman, in China as a Christian, in America as an arab, in Thailand as sex slave, in an Iraqi prison as an Iraqi... then tell me how realistic the denial of human rights are in your game.
Re:realism indeed (Score:3, Insightful)
So when Americans do bad things to Iraqis in Iraqi prisons, that's okay because at one time an Iraqi did even worse things to Iraqis in Iraqi prisons?
Tell me, how do you feel about moral relativism?
Your argument was making sense until you tried to explain away current injustice because somebody else once did the same thing. Two wrongs don't make a
It's just a game... (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's not forget this is just a game. It is not some grand social experiment. It is a service that people pay for and when you type something out it is being read by a *person*, not an Avatar. If someone is playing the game and paying for it they have no responsibility to treat is as anything but a game. In college, you were payed to be experimented on. I think they have every right to expect a certain level of protection from this kind of insulting behaviour.
Would calling someone on another team a racial slur in the middle of a baseball game be okay? If it was just to get a reaction and not meant with ill will?
The "social experiment" of slavery and sexism has already been performed and it didn't go well. There is enough racism/sexism on the net without it being officially sanctioned by people who are taking your money...
Rise up! (Score:3, Interesting)
If these women want to be treated "equally" during a time (Ancient Egypt) where the game most likely accurately portrays them as "unequal", then they should be playing the game as women have been subject to sufferage for many years.
Keep the whining, the finger-pointing, and the who-said-whats in the game where it is meant to be and work it out in there. After all, its a game, so my advice to these women is: WIN!
Slow down, guys (Score:3, Insightful)
A better question would be if this is consistant. Are women universally treated as slaves in the game? Have there been other side quests and story elements that locked women out? Are there any female-only parts of the game? If women are otherwise treated as equals in ability and options, then it doesn't make sense to cry historical accuracy now.
You can't say that this is ridiculous solely on the basis of the Slashdot writeup. Hopefully someone who knows more about the game will post further information, since the article is slashdotted right now.
For the sake of argument... (Score:5, Interesting)
Are there any boundaries in role-playing? Some people seem to say no. Well, what if someone dresses up for an SCA event or Halloween as some offensive type character, and starts going off on someone in way most people would view as inappropriate (say, a person in a KKK costume and using the "n" word towards blacks/african-americans, etc.) Is that ok?
Since we don't live in ancient egypt, should we behave by today's standards in-game -- totally, partially, or not at all? Does role playing imply total immersion in character, or are there limits?
I also acceptable behavior should be very clearly defined so players know what to expect. I'm not well informed about the game, but I'd be curious what their policy states.
There was an incident years ago in EQ I think where someone playing a Dark Elf, either roleplayed or wrote about raping another in-game character (not a NPC, it was a PC acct). I recall it was quite graphic and, to me anyway, disturbing. I believe the player was banned, some said it was role-playing, others said it crossed the line. Was a huge debate. Thoughts?
Ok, some stuff to mull over -- I think it's an interesting topic as mmorpgs and rpgs continue to get more interesting and immersive.
Re:For the sake of argument... (Score:3, Informative)
You're missing an important point...the person wrote a story about her character being raped. Basically it was "look, I'm a Dark Elf, I'm evil, this is the background of my character that explains why." The character was underage; don't remember if the player was or not.
It was written and posted in some sort of fan board, not in the game (I don't recall if the
It's not the developers that have a problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Political Correctness is an example immaturity, and these people railing against something that has no effect on them except through their self-deluded state of being offended is not what anyone should classify as news.
Question from a non-gamer (Score:3, Insightful)
It's a "Frankenstein" effect (Score:4, Funny)
Blood & Profanity up 6 3/8 at the close, (Score:4, Insightful)
Kids Today. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's like acting. Kevin Spacey isn't REALLY dead from a gunshot wound to the back of the head. He didn't REALLY cut what-er-name's head off and stick it in a box to freak Brad Pitt out.
Kids today. Never played a real (paper & pencil) RPG. I used to play a character that was always shooting off racial slurs at Dwarves. In fact, once he was at quite a high level, he engaged in a campaign of Dwarficide. THAT'S NOT REAL.
So, if you are in a game, playing a character that should be treated a certain way within the context of the game let's try to do two things. 1. Don't be surprised and 2. Remember it is one FICTIONAL character mistreating another FICTIONAL character. You are not your fucking character.
Hallelujah, holy shit, where's the tylenol?
-Peter
I totally agree (Score:3, Funny)
I understand your plight, sisters. I can't play Counterstrike without getting called a "fag". They also call me a "pussy". To be equated with female genitalia! How demeaning!
Oh, but it gets worse. It goes way beyond male/female, and into slavery. Your game's character asked who your master is. My game's players insist that they ARE my master, or that they "0wn" me. As someone who knows someone who is of a descendency that was slaved at some point in history, it offends me to my very core.
But it's not all from players. It's company sponsored too. One company advertised a game whose lead guy insisted I would be made "his bitch".
Sister, stand strong. We won't tolerate this kind of treatment!
Everquest did this long ago..... (Score:3, Funny)
Why....I remember it like it was yesterday. There we all were...the greatest race in all of Norrath. Trollkin for as far as the eye could see (or at least as far as the swamp gas would allow). We were happy. We danced...we frolicked...we were peaceful and loved our neighbors and the wilderness of the swamp. All those stories of barshin' an squishin' were racist attacks by those anti-trollkin light-skinned races. The man was trying to hold us down but we remained free and happy....
Then the frogs came. In a blatantly racist attack, Sony sent legions of racist frogs in to take our land, rape our livestock, and kill our children. We found ourselves a broken people, forced to wander for years and years.
Even now we find ourselves singled out in towns. Children point at our warty skin and bulbous noses. They complain about the smell of our uncured hide armor.
How can we, as free thinking Americans, Europeans, Asians and the like allow this kind of blatant racism to exist in fantasy worlds!!!! Have you seen how they treat Dark Elves in EverQuest II?!?!?! It is shameful!!!!
Event motivation (Score:5, Insightful)
To a new player, ATITD can seem like a game about building "stuff." You build your camp, your compound, your character. If you play a long time, or play smart, you can excel in all of that. But the real challenge is that it's a game about building a perfect society, and that is *hard*. It's hard in RL, and if I'm doing my job correctly it should be hard in the game.
Along comes a foreign trader, with shiny new goods, and an attitude that's totaly offensive, totally out of line with the culture that has developed in our Ancient Egypt. Would you trade with him? Would you put aside your morals, if it meant you'd get an advantage that many people don't have? In real-life, would you patronize a store that had a "no jews allowed" policy? What if they had *really* good prices? Would you do it and hope nobody saw? Maybe feel guilty?
The best books, movies, television - can provoke a range of emotions. I like books that make me feel happy, enraged, triumphant, guilty, enlightened, sad. I want to have all of those emotions available in an MMO, and emotions occur in players, not characters.
So, to create emotions you have to do things to characters that the people behind them will react to. The only question is how hard is it ok to push? So hard that the person kills themself? Of course not. Did this event push too hard? Certainly for some people it did.
I'll continue to make it hard to build this perfect society. If that means we trade subscriber counts for a more memorable, challenging experience, I'm confortable with that. After all, if I were optimizing for subscriber counts, I'd have done a combat based game. Hell, if I were optimizing for money, I'd have been a lawyer!
Misplaced Outrage (Score:3, Interesting)
The ultimate point being that you can explore, and enjoy an online fantasy world without endorsing what occurs in that world. If we can't have discriminatory or asshole NPCs how do you acheive game conflict. Nothing I have seen suggests the game is *advocating* this position. I think this sort of thing can give important flavor and something for the players to campaign against.
In a broader sense I think these outrages are not only misplaced but cause us to miss broader issues. There is no danger in the modern world that people will backslide and start treating women as property again. However, there are plenty of subtle ways in which women are kept down and oppressed. This sort of 'outrage' detracts from the real issue.
For instance 90% of males I know, even 'liberated' males prefer to date women who are less assertive and intelligent than them. Girls who act like their male friends in assertivity and arguing about CS (or math or whatever) simply aren't found desierable. Guys who think logically are awarded with praise while often girls who do the same thing are chided for being too 'masculine'.
Every time we waste our time and focus on one of these 'outrages' we make things worse. Men get to think of themselves as 'liberated' and supporting equality for women when in fact they are the heart of the modern problem. It is only by focusing attention of these subtle inter-personal interactions can any true progress be made.
Bah (Score:3, Insightful)
Awash in idiocy, we remain islands. (Score:4, Insightful)
The ATITD games are basically games where the players make *all* the meaningful rules. It's pretty damn crude (and more than just a little bit boring) by some standards, but at the core of it is the players making laws for themselves. Whatever laws (and particularly the stupid ones) the players draft up, vote on, and pass into approval, the head developer implements.
ATITD (the first one) had *several* hundreds of laws. Laws pertaining to right of way. Laws pertaining to where people can build. Laws pertaining to what happens when someone steals something. Laws for *everything*, well, everything except slavery and equal rights. ATITD2 is starting fresh, there's only a handful of laws in play at the moment, and so this time the devs apparently decided to prod the players a bit to see if they'd draft up the necessary laws outlawing slavery and so on, by having an NPC roll into town from a reasonably historically accurate neighboring land.
Now you would think that if the previous run of the game had many hundreds of laws that after this there would be a flurry of Leadership petitions being assembled to formally outlaw slavery, racism, hatred, and cornish hens besides (I told you not all the laws made sense). Well, actually, there are. There is also a flurry of inflammatory reporting being done by websites without the first clue as to what actually went on in the game, being fed by a small number of dim-witted people who can't see the difference between their character and their actual selves.
The "riot" wasn't so much that players were pissed off about the event as it was that the players were looking for that slaver to express their desire he get the hell out of Egypt.
The black girl who was so put out by this event needs to *get a grip*. The game is set in ancient Egypt. Her character is a citizen there and her character saw another character acting like an ass. There's no need for her to be personally offended by it, and unlike other MMORPGS, she herself can login to the game anddraft a law, convince other players to sign it, and have that slaver removed from the environment permanently by exile. No messing about with GMs and policies needed.
Isn't this in-game? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:SWG had Riots too (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not Historically Accurate (Score:5, Informative)