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PC Games (Games) Sci-Fi Role Playing (Games)

eGenesis to Develop New MMO with Orson Scott Card 324

Posted by Zonk from the from-fishing-to-faith-healing dept.
Johnathon Walls writes "eGenesis, makers of the non-combat, world-building massively multiplayer online (MMO) game "A Tale in the Desert" versions 1 and 2, has signed a deal with Orson Scott Card (author of Ender's game and The Seventh Son) to develop the pre-Civil War American world of "Alvin the Maker" into a new MMO. This is also going to be a non-combat-centered, community-building world. Questions remain as to the amount of interest these non-combat games generate, and concerns about the rapidly dropping population of Tale 2 (a steady decline from 2089 subscribers on Sep 26 to 1582 subscribers on Jan 6) really bring this issue to the forefront."
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eGenesis to Develop New MMO with Orson Scott Card More

eGenesis to Develop New MMO with Orson Scott Card

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  • That's it. Exploring and building get old quickly.
    • That's it. Exploring and building get old quickly.

      No combat??? I guess there is no option to explore the desert for oil in the game.
    • Rubbish - so long as you make sure that the community and group building aspects are compelling enough.

      Let's face it, the Hello Kitty MMO has the potential to be much bigger than any MMO so far. After all, grinding up trolls and beheading orcs with a magic axe are niche activities too

      Playaholics : Free Flash Games [playaholics.com]
    • Well, it's good to see something besides the fantasy/sci-fi based MMO that are everywhere.

      I'm still waiting for a Wild-West MMO. With homesteaders, and bandits, and deputies, and train robbing and shoot-outs at the Okie-Dokey coral!
    • That's it. Exploring and building get old quickly.


      Disclaimer: This is not girl-bashing.

      Many people I know love to play Age of Empires-- until the fighting starts. Most just like to build. And they get attached to their little characters, too! Just look at the popularity of the sims, if you need an example.

      While I don't think it would really interest me, I think that if it is done right, there will be a significant market.

    • For a long time, whenever the concepts of gaming and OSC arose in proximity, I've stated that Ender's Game could inspire not one, but two killer games.

      First, there's the zero-gee capture the flag FPS type game that gets so much ink in the novel. Given the success of UT and other head-to-head FPS games, I don't see why this hasn't been done yet.

      And second, there's the adventure game that Ender plays in his free time. It's rather surreal and subjective, and is not as commercially appealing, but it could

    • This isn't necessarily true, or there wouldn't be MUSHes and MOOs across the internet, where the whole point is just to build, explore, and socialize. However, you're right in that it's not a mainstream activity, in that the majority of people just want to stab things. I pray for the day however, when we'll finally get a real graphicsl MUSH.

  • Great, but... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Lonesome Squash ( 676652 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:24PM (#11288846)
    It's a great, rich, and compelling world, and I loved the books. But I quail at the thought of all those people getting some twisted view of American history.

    On the other hand, it can't be much worse than what they got in high school [uvm.edu].

    • I think everyone in their right mind will know that it is fiction... considering everyone has magical powers called knacks, etc. It's an alternative history and doesn't pretend to be otherwise.

      (That being said, the series went down hill after book 3 or so, and was has gotten so bad I never finished the Crystal City)

  • But will it translate into a worthwhile product? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bahumat ( 213955 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:24PM (#11288847) Homepage Journal
    Caveat: I'm a raving fanboy of Orson Scott Card's *writing*.

    That being said, as much as I adore the Alvin Maker series, I'm not sure how that will translate into an MMORPG. Ultimately all such games require conflict as much as cooperation, and without combat, conflict feels lacking in many such games.

    Issues of product aside, I'm hoping Orson Scott Card reaps fantastic gobs of money for the license for the stories/setting, as his work certainly is worth it.

    • Re:But will it translate into a worthwhile product (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Tassach ( 137772 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:34PM (#11288958)
      Caveat: I'm a raving fanboy of Orson Scott Card's *writing*.
      I like OSC's *fiction*. Some of his *writing* is downright scary (EG, his infamous homophobic screed).

      It boggles my mind as to how a member of one oft-persecuted minority group (Mormons) can justify persecuting another minority group.

      • As is customary on SlashDot, disapproval of homosexuality is equated with homophobia. One can disagree with something, and even speak against it, without fearing it (at least in the phobic sense).
        • Indeed one can, but tell me: Why is the right commentary always dragging the discussion into areas that involve "amoral" "Homosexual Agenda" etc.?

          This clearly is not a discussion but fear mongering.

          If you have a good reason why you think that is a bad idea please do share, just try to steer away from any fear mongering.

      • Sorry, dude, he saw you coming. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Fished ( 574624 ) <amphigory@@@gmail...com> on Friday January 07, 2005 @01:30PM (#11289618)
        And we all know the course this thing will follow. Anyone who opposes this edict will be branded a bigot; any schoolchild who questions the legitimacy of homosexual marriage will be expelled for "hate speech." The fanatical Left will insist that anyone who upholds the fundamental meaning that marriage has always had, everywhere, until this generation, is a "homophobe" and therefore mentally ill. (from http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1 .html)
        One need not be a "homophobe" to have serious reservations about the ethics of homosexual practice. One need not be a "homophobe" to feel that marriage is an institution designed to provide for the having and rearing of children. One need not be a "homophobe" in order to feel that a two-parent, heterosexaul household provides children with the best opportunity of developing positive relationships with men AND women.

        "Homophobe" and "homophobic" are nothing but name-calling - terms used to avoid engaging serious discussion on a topic that the new liberal orthodoxy has declared decided, even as the vast bulk of Americans simply disagree.

        As far as your comparison of Homosexuals and Mormons - are you seriously suggesting that there is no difference between religious faith and sexual practice? Are you seriously suggesting that we have a freedom of sexual practice comparable to our freedom of religious conviction? Are you seriously under the delusion that the status of homosexuality as a civil rights issue rather than a moral issue is settled?

        The bottom line is that YOU are the innovator here, not Card. To act as though he must, necessarily, agree with your orthodoxy when your orthodoxy has thrown the orthodoxy of 30 years ago out the window, and that any failure to do so must only be because he is "homophobic", is downright insulting.


        • > One need not be a "homophobe" to feel that marriage is an institution designed to provide for the having and rearing of children.

          So, people who are married but don't have kids shouldn't be married?

          And those that do have kids should get divorced when the kids grow up and move out?

        • "Homophobe" and "homophobic" are nothing but name-calling - terms used to avoid engaging serious discussion on a topic that the new liberal orthodoxy has declared decided, even as the vast bulk of Americans simply disagree.

          Would this be the vast bulk of America that refused to recognize blacks as full citizens without a Constitutional Amendment shoved down their throats? Go on, preach about the evil "orthodoxy" that is corrupting the "morals" of America. Forgive me for sneering at the hypocrasy present

        • One need not be a "homophobe" to have serious reservations about the ethics of homosexual practice.

          What is unethical about it? Seriously, two people consent, so what is the unethical thing about it?

          One need not be a "homophobe" to feel that marriage is an institution designed to provide for the having and rearing of children.

          Interestingly enough you don't need to be married to get a woman pregnant. Thus the logic: Marriage == Children does not compute.

          One need not be a "homophobe" in order to feel t

          • Then tell me: What is his motivation? If he is not "homophobic" if he isn't "afraid" of the homosexual men and women out there, if it isn't a distaste for their "lifestyle", then what is it that makes him say those things?

            the exact same thing that makes christians condemn homosexuality. "because the bible says so", end of discussion. it's a matter of religious faith and doctrine, and thus not open to debate.

            what's frightening is the number of people who voted for bush not because of any of his fiscal, fo
            • what's frightening is the number of people who voted for bush not because of any of his fiscal, foreign, economic, scientific, military, educational, or any other policy -- but that the sole reason they voted for bush is because he's a christian who is against homosexuality.

              Do you have any numbers for how many people voted for him solely on the basis of his homosexuality stance? And please don't try citing that debunked "moral values" exit poll.

          • Re:Sorry, dude, he saw you coming. (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Fished ( 574624 ) <amphigory@@@gmail...com> on Friday January 07, 2005 @05:58PM (#11292324)

            What is unethical about it? Seriously, two people consent, so what is the unethical thing about it?

            Is everything that two people consent to necessarily ethical? If I consent to you killing me, does that automatically make your killing of me ethical? If someone likes being beaten choked to the virge of death during sex (and there are some who do, and a few die of it) does that mean that choking oneself during sex is not aberrant behavior? You are viewing morality through an individualistic lens - you are assuming that, for something to be immoral, it must necessarily hurt some individual.

            This is not (necessarily) an incorrect position, but it is important that you understand that it is strictly a modern position. Prior to recent times, moral standards were regarded througha communitarian lens. Something could be regarded as harmful to the community even if those participating had no problem with it and there was no direct, discernible effect on anyone else.

            The bottom line is that the prohibition against exclusive homosexuality is not a recent, Christian phenomenon. It has been present in virtually all cultures, at all times, in all places. Even the Greeks, whom gay advocates like to cite as proof that rejection of homosexuality is not universal, did not practice anything like what todays gay movement advocates. "Gay marriage" was simply never an issue. One married for progeny (consider, for example, Alexander, who was "queer" as the proverbial three dollar bill, but who nevertheless married, had a mistress, and had children) - one engaged in gay sex as a fling. Moreover, in both Greek and Roman culture, it was regarded as very shameful to play the "female" part in gay sex. There was no sense in which homosexuality was regarded as an alternative to heterosexuality - instead, it was regarded as a fling, something that one did when young and with the young. (And, frankly, if you look up any authoritative source on this you will find this out. I'm not makign this up.)

            The point is that you can't find any culture, anywhere, that practiced the kind of homosexuality that gay rights folks advocate today. There never has been gay marriage, because gay marriage made no sense when gay sex was just a fling and the absurd notion of "orientation" had not yet been invented. And I challenge you to cite a *single* counter-example.

            Furthermore, it is evident that "gay marriage" - at least among male homosexuals - is not equivalent to heterosexual marraige in an important respect. Namely, it is rarely, if ever, monogamous. This has been borne out by so many studies that it is proven, and it has even been admitted by gay advocates in some forums. Gay marriages tend to define monogamy in emotional terms rather than physical terms.

            Finally, there is overwhelming eviedence, which the gay press willfully ignores, that homosexual orientation can be changed. Here are a few representative, published, peer-reviewed articles to prove the point.

            Arch Sex Behav. 2003 Oct;32(5):403-17; discussion 419-72. Related Articles, Links

            Comment in:

            * Arch Sex Behav. 2003 Oct;32(5):399-402.
            * Arch Sex Behav. 2004 Apr;33(2):83-4; author reply 84-5.
            * Arch Sex Behav. 2004 Aug;33(4):325.

            Click here to read
            Can some gay men and lesbians change their sexual orientation? 200 participants reporting a change from homosexual to heterosexual orientation.

            Spitzer RL.

            Biometrics Research Department, New York State Psychiatric Institute, New York, New York 10032, USA. rls8@columbia.edu

            Position statements of the major mental health organizations in the United States state that there is no scientific evidence that a homosexual sexual orientation can be changed by psychotherapy, often referred to as "reparative therapy." This study tested the hypothesis that some individuals whose sexual orientation is predominantly homosexu

            • Is everything that two people consent to necessarily ethical? ... You are viewing morality through an individualistic lens - you are assuming that, for something to be immoral, it must necessarily hurt some individual.

              Remember, there are no true synonyms in our language. Ethics and morality are close, but not the same.

              Here's the thing--homosexuality is normal now. That makes people like you insecure, for some reason. And that insecurity makes people like me happy. I'm kind of an asshole that way, bu

          • One need not be a "homophobe" in order to feel that a two-parent, heterosexaul household provides children with the best opportunity of developing positive relationships with men AND women

            Why? If there is only one Gender present does that mean the kid will never have any interaction with the "other" sex?

            I wanted to comment on this issue about Sex and Gender and the well being of kids.

            Believe it or not, there have been many, many psychological studies on this topic. And for the most part all of th

        • If you think it's okay to have "serious reservations" about your fellow citizens simply for the way they are, perhaps you should be willing to justify them in any way.

          You write this post in an attempt to categorize "homophobia" as name-calling only, but your post itself is empty of any content. You posture yourself as one exposing this name-calling but make no effort to substantiate your own questionable view.

          "Homophobia" is not an empty phrase. It is used as a name to cast at people at times, but there
        • Are you seriously suggesting that we have a freedom of sexual practice comparable to our freedom of religious conviction?

          Yes.

          For many years the majority of the population was pro-slavery. The abolitionist movement started with very few people, and grew from there.
    • I loved Orson Scott Card's writing when I was 12. By the time I was 15, I was a little less into it, and discovered that he is a Mormon and shoehorns his idiotic little belief structure into his novels. At some point he said something like "This story is an allegory about self destructive people like drug addicts and homosexuals."

      I thought... wait... wasn't a homosexual a totally essential character in the "Call of Earth" series? Oh. Yeah. He was a hero because he decided to do the right thing and have sex
    • Have you read his writing? No series ever ends, and each book ends with a new plot twist.

      This is exactly what MMORPGs want, isn't it? An infinitely long story where each module makes the player have to buy the next one until the creators get tired of making them and make some new series?
    • One wonders (me, anyway) if he shouldn't be busy helping with the inevitable game of the upcoming movie...

    • Ultimately all such games require conflict as much as cooperation, and without combat, conflict feels lacking in many such games.

      Orson Scott Card is already quite experienced in video game combat. He wrote all of the insults for the insult swordfighting in Secret of Monkey Island, the first Monkey Island game. Although I guess this type of "fighting" is naturally inherent among players in MMORPGs in general, maybe he can make it fresh with less expletives and more wit.

      "You fight like a dairy farmer!"

      "
    • all such games require conflict as much as cooperation, and without combat, conflict feels lacking in many such games.

      Depends on your tastes. In the Quest for Numerical Superiority games, conflict is often merely a measure of who's got the bigger numbers, which often merely translate into who's put in the most grind time. There are other groups of (older) gamers who don't want to compete against a crowd of players who have a lot more time available. A niche market of MMO games which can cater to smalle

  • Because there aren't enough MMOGs already (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Austerity Empowers ( 669817 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:29PM (#11288912)
    Each of these MMOGs is a full time, all night, every night ordeal. There's really enough room in our lives (and wallets) for one at a time.

    I think he needs to stick with writing, there's plenty of MMOGs now and they're getting pretty good.
    • It's for Hatrackers. These folks have been doing role-play type posting in this "world" for more than a decade (they were going pretty heavy when I got to AOL, back when they used the GeoWorks interface). When Scott moved off of AOL to hatrack.com, they just moved over there, and have been going strong the whole time.

      I don't think you're going to see this trying to be the next Everquest. The folks who want it will know about it (most already do) and we'll find out how many are willing to pay to use it.

  • MMOs and Sci-Fi (Score:2, Interesting)

    by tsalaroth ( 798327 )
    I'd like to see the Ender's Game universe turned into a MMORPG.

    However, comments above are right, non-combat MMO's can be pretty boring. I tried the Tales games, and after 10 minutes the point was lost to me.

  • For those of you (Score:4, Informative)

    by revery ( 456516 ) <[charles] [at] [cac2.net]> on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:34PM (#11288963) Homepage
    who have never read any of Orson Scott Card's work, run, do not walk, to the nearest bookstore/library and buy/check out/steal/photocopy Ender's Game.

    For those of you who have read some of his novels but have never read his short stories, you should check out Maps in a Mirror [amazon.com], recently re-released in paperback. In particular, check out "The Hanged Man and the King of Words", "Unaccompanied Sonata", "Mikal's Songbird", "A Plague of Butterflies", uhm... look just buy the book ok.

    And while I'm at it. There is a story in the book After the King [amazon.com] called "Silver of Gold" by Emma Bull and another one called "The Fellowship of the Dragon" by Patricia A. McKillip, and well, you should read those too.

    That's it.

    Oh wait. Terry Pratchett [amazon.com] is great too...

    Oh, hello Nurse Ratchet...

    [Sounds of scuffling in the background]

    Must press submit...

    • Re:For those of you (Score:5, Informative)

      by Timesprout ( 579035 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:43PM (#11289080)
      who have never read any of Orson Scott Card's work, run, do not walk, to the nearest bookstore/library and buy/check out/steal/photocopy Ender's Game.

      For those who actually do this its waste of time if you dont read the second book Speaker For The Dead which is by far the best book in the series. Enders Game is not bad but its main purpose is to serve as an intoduction to Speaker.
      • This man speaks truth.

      • Re:For those of you (Score:3, Insightful)

        by rackhamh ( 217889 )
        Hogwash. They are both excellent books in their own right.

        Ender's Game will always hold a special place in the hearts of those who read it as children and could instantly relate to Ender's character (in the introduction to later versions of the novel, Card discusses the many letters he received to this effect).

        You may prefer SFTD, but that doesn't make Ender's Game a waste of time on its own. I had read Ender's Game several times already, and loved it every time, before I ever touched the rest of the se

      • Re:For those of you (Score:3, Interesting)

        by syle ( 638903 )
        You got modded informative for giving an unjustified opinion?

        Both books are incredible. I don't agree that Speaker is "by far the best," but I understand that this is the internet and people will have different opinions than me. Reading Ender's Game by itself is absolutely no waste. It's one of the standards of modern scifi and to dismiss it as "not bad," is pure pointless elitism.

      • Both Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead are outstanding books (and I would add Xenocide to that list), just for different reasons. They speak to different things.

        Sadly, Children of the Mind slips a bit, and the follow-on, return-to-the-well "Shadow" series is just horrible.

        My advice is to purchase:

        "Ender's Game"
        "Speaker for the Dead"
        "Xenocide"
        "Children of the Mind"

        and then stop. Pretend he died shortly thereafter.

        DG

      • Re:For those of you (Score:3, Interesting)

        by HeghmoH ( 13204 )
        I loved Ender's Game. I hated Speaker so much that I will probably never read another Card book again. It was long, rambling, pointless, and annoying. As far as I'm concerned, he's a one-hit wonder. I might be wrong, but there are plenty of consistently good authors out there that I can devote my time to.
        • I agree in that I hated Speaker profusely. But try reading the Ender Prequel series--it's awesome!

          I actually also really liked OSC's "Enchantment," a standalove novel, though I would avoid the Earthfall series (blah) and Alvin Maker (started good, but in a spiralling decline, imho).

    • Re:For those of you (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Nephilium ( 684559 )
      And if you want to sample a nice collection of other authors that will already have books on the shelves, the Legends series (edited by Robert Silverberg) is a very good selection. Each one of the two (hardcover) books has a short story/novella from an author with a series being worked on or completed. Each of the stories stands outside the direct continuity of the series, and adds more background information about them.

      The first one [amazon.com] has King, Goodkind, Card, and Jordan amongst others.
      The second one [amazon.com]
    • ender's game is ok, but nothing special.

      you want amazing writing? try larry niven.

  • Yay! (Score:3, Funny)

    by rackhamh ( 217889 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:35PM (#11288978)
    Finally, a massively multiplayer version of Tetris! (context [actsofgord.com])

  • Focus (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Bios_Hakr ( 68586 ) <xptical.gmail@com> on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:36PM (#11288991)
    I never really understood how a MMO would work if based off a "super hero" world. Basicly, this MMO will be set in an alternative world of a godlike Joseph Smith. What's the angle; everyone starts their own church? Can we all sit around and translate plates hidden in a hat? Are we suposed to work together to cross Hatrack River or cut diseased bone from Joseph's (excuse me, Alvin's) leg?

    Seriously, why do people buy into Alvin's story? It's just a fantasized retelling of Joseph Smith's life.

    And OSC's Homecoming Series was basicly a rewritten account of The Book of Mormon.

    • Re:Focus (Score:3, Informative)

      by SamBeckett ( 96685 )
      The Alvin Maker series is set before Joseph Smith and I fail to see (other than the author's questionable religion) how the two are related.

      • Re:Focus (Score:2, Insightful)

        by fitten ( 521191 )
        You want a funny moderation or something?

        I could rewrite Hitler's autobiography, but use the name "Bob" everywhere that Hitler's is used, but set it in an alternate Earth and the date as 1400AD and it would still be a retold Hitler's life story. The fact that the setting is before or after the real one does nothing to break the tie between the two.
    • Seriously, why do people buy into Alvin's story? It's just a fantasized retelling of Joseph Smith's life.

      Because most people don't even have the feintest clue who Joseph Smith was, let alone that the series is a fictionalised portrayal of his life.

      Because, I've heard, it's well written and a good story.
    • He who collects the most wives wins!

      DG
  • I would say that the problem isn't a rapid decline of popularity, since you can't lose what you don't have.
    The Old Ultraviolence is where it's at.

  • Is it just me?? (Score:5, Funny)

    by FortKnox ( 169099 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:38PM (#11289014) Homepage Journal
    I hear "Alvin the Maker" and think of a large sandworm with funny eyebrows.
    • It should be "Alvin Maker", using his profession as a surname, as with "Alvin Miller" and "Alvin Smith". The fact that they got these wrong bodes poorly for the MMORPG, in my opinion.

      I also suspect the universe will adapt itself poorly, as everyone will want unreasonably powerful knacks, some of which (eg torches) can't be satisfied by the game engine.

    • Re:Is it just me?? (Score:4, Funny)

      by doublem ( 118724 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:57PM (#11289253) Homepage Journal
      Funny, for me, the name "Alvin the Maker" conjures up an image of a gigantic cartoon chipmunk holding the Universe in his hands, a mischievous grin on his face.

      Suddenly, he cackles "NOW I'll get my Harmonica!"

  • A MMO I'd definately try and probably like (Score:4, Informative)

    by hsoft ( 742011 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:40PM (#11289038) Homepage
    would be a MMOTG (Tactical Game). One of my favourite game ever is Final Fantasy Tactics, and I always tought: "Goddammit, how cool it would be if it was multiplayer, and how GODLY it would be if it was MM!"

    What I dislike about MMORPG is that you don't have the time to say "oh shit" that you are already dead in PvP. You don't have the time to talk to your opponents. Of course, if both players are nice RPers, maybe that they'll talk to each other, but has it ever happened to you with anybody else than people you already knew before combat? Have you ever tried to be a "Verbose PK" in UO? You can't. Combat goes too fast. Of course, you can macro some cool stuff to say, but it rapidly grows boring to say the same old stuff.

    I'm saying this and I for one have no idea of a practical way to implement a game like that. Nevertheless, it would probably a MMO I would stick to. Or maybe it already exists and someone will tell me where I can find it?
    • Have you ever tried to be a "Verbose PK" in UO?

      You mean "HAHA PWNED NOOB!!!!!11" doesn't count?

    • You looking for an MMORTS? Already exists, and is quite fun, very strategic, and very tactical. And free (paying gives benefits but you can kick ass without paying easily). See Shattered Galaxy.

      Oh, and if you want a game where PvP isn't an instant death and killing someone actually means something (they don't just respawn with an XP debt), see EVE Online [eve-online.com].

  • Orson Scott Card (Score:5, Funny)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:40PM (#11289050) Journal
    I need one of these now?

    I just spent like 300 bucks on a Radeon now I need an "Orson Scott" card.

    Does linux have "Orson Scott" card support?

    This is why consoles are so popular. Noone should have to buy new hardware every month just to play some crappy games.

    • Have you seen his beard? [fantasticf...ages.co.uk]

      damn thing can likely be played under unix if that's any kind of indication...

    • Yeah, but these "Orson Scott" cards are made out of paper, so they're really cheap to produce. I bet you could pick one up online for $5 at most! Hell, you might even need a specialized shelf to store all of these special cards on, since you can afford so many!

  • Community building games (Score:3, Informative)

    by Strange Ranger ( 454494 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:41PM (#11289056)
    > Questions remain as to the amount of interest these non-combat games generate

    If these games are to be popular past the "gee whiz, check it out!" phase, they need to let the player decide how much or how little time is appropriate.

    No game or hobby that requires dozens of hours per week to achieve and kind of success is ever very popular. Life is too full things to do.

    On an offtopic note: Is there a SF writer out there who is more right-wing than OSC?
    Seriously, I'm trying to think of one.
    • > No game or hobby that requires dozens of hours per week to achieve and kind of success is ever very popular. Life is too full things to do.

      I guess you've never heard of Everquest?

      Five+ years and still going strong with over 400,000 subscribers.

      To "achieve success" in EverQuest, the top guilds (ie: the successful guilds) raid ~5 hours a night, 5+ days a week (ie: avg 25 hours a week, which qualifies as "dozens")

      But it's not very popular....

      And thats just a game example, you included "hobby" as wel
      • Your definition of popular is very different than mine.
        The game Trivial Pursuit has sold over 70 million copies. Making it 2 orders of magnitude more popular than slashdot. Everyone you know has played it. I can only think of one person I know who has ever played Everquest, even for a minute.

        From here: [clicky] [ohiou.edu]

        There are now several contenders in the online gaming arena. Electronic Arts (EA) has a clear lead with run-away hits like Ultima Online, The Sims and several popular sports titles. (Kessler 2

  • Popularity shouldn't define content (Score:4, Interesting)

    by wondafucka ( 621502 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:42PM (#11289066) Homepage Journal
    Who cares if only a couple of thousand people are interested in it? It's a work of art, and if it survives despite dumptrucks full of money, it doesn't really matter.

    It's better to have a small community with a richly defined experience than a new game aimed at people who already have a mass produced outlet they are content with.

    • You're right. Popularity should not dictate content. But content will dictate popularity. And because it's MM, it's going to be expensive. A lot of resources are needed for MM. Who's paying for it?

      If the thing sucks, it will never be remembered as a work of art, it'll be remembered as a MM that had OSC involved with it, and it flopped.

      People have questions and doubts, and there are many people who think that because someone has a famous SF/Fantasy author involved, it might be a gimmick.
      There are
  • I thought ATiTD was an AMAZING concept for a game. And I really enjoyed playing it for a while.

    Before I continue, you should know that I'm one of those MMORPG players who loves doing tradeskills. I loved UO's system, hated EQ's, and thought I found a new best friend in ATiTD. Unfortunately, they made it boring as hell with a few exceptions.

    What i'd really like to see in a tradeskill based MMORPG is more skill involved, possibly some twitch based tradeskills. I mean, how cool would it be if you had to po

    • I mean, how cool would it be if you had to point to where you wanted the smithing hammer to strike

      Um, not very to me personally, but I find most games to be pretty dull. It would be about as interesting as a Burger King simulator where you have to click to flip the burgers. The relatively few times I play games is to escape the mundanity of life, not to recreate some mundane activity. If I really started craving metalwork, I'd just go to a forge and learn how to create something in real life.
    • Hear hear! Took the words right out of my mouth!

      I tried out ATITD, and ATITD2. There were many good aspects to both, and ATITD deserves credit for being the first MMO with tradeskills that required actual skill (charcoal making, for one).. Unfortunately, too many of them were repetitive, and other timesinks in the game were very boring (esp. travel).

      These games rely on player achievement (progress) to keep players engaged and interested. It has to take time to progress, so the designers build in tim

  • Or maybe Charles Rich. Actually, Porter Rockwell would kick some butt.

    ps Just because YOU don't understand this post doesn't mean it is off topic!

  • Ultimate Iron Man (Score:3, Informative)

    by grungebox ( 578982 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:46PM (#11289122) Homepage
    If you care for these "ultimate" reinventions Marvel is fond of (I only like Ultimate X-Men, myself), then it might interest you to know that Orson Scott Card is writing Ultimate Iron Man when it debuts in March. I'm not sure how long he's signed up for, but I'd guess no more than 12 issues. See here [marvel.com] for details. For those not up on comics, the quick summary is that the "ultimate" line is Marvel's way of restarting their characters from scratch so as to draw in new readers who don't want to fuck around with the 40 years of storylines.

  • Take a look at that census (Score:2, Interesting)

    by alta ( 1263 )
    This makes it pretty obvious to me. Look at the levels people are reaching...

    The levels are Student, Apprentice, Journeyman, Scribe... we'll stop there cause no one has gotten and further.

    Now, looking at architecture, the highest level reached is apprentice.
    Art & Music, NO ONE RANKS,
    Body? Yeah, some apprentices here (you have to have a good body to fight)
    Leadership, one Journeyman...
    Thought, a few students
    Worship, a decent amount here, not playing the game, I dont' know what benefits this giv

  • Have you learned the secret handshake yet? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Foofoobar ( 318279 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @12:59PM (#11289268)
    Yay... Mormon propoganda is turned into a game. Get out your magical underoos
  • He states that no science fiction novel should ever have faster-than-light travel. In other words, this won't be an MMORPG, but a screensaver. You'll create a character, set course to Alpha Centauri, and come back 4 years later to fight your first NPC. Four years later, you'll arrive back at Earth to sell your loot. Now THATS what I call a TIME SINK!

  • Population stats for various MMORPG's (Score:4, Informative)

    by mcguyver ( 589810 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @01:04PM (#11289321) Homepage
    Here are my population estimates for some of the major MMORPG's.
    Lineage: 2,000,000 subscribers
    World of Warcraft: 600,000
    Final Fantasy XI: 550,000
    Everquest 1: 250,000
    City Of Heroes: 200,000
    Everquest 2: 150,000
    A Tale in the Desert 2: 1,500

    1,500 isn't much in the world of Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game's.

    • Re:Population stats for various MMORPG's (Score:4, Informative)

      by Dachannien ( 617929 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @01:16PM (#11289465)
      Remember that for pretty much all of those games with huge populations, there are many servers running the game. You can't interact from one server to another, so it doesn't really matter if a game has 2 billion people playing it when only 10,000 of them inhabit any one server.

      Besides, the defining quality of "Massively" multiplayer games isn't that zillions of people can play, but rather that it's significantly bigger than something like Diablo 2 where lots of people play on battle.net, but only 8 people can join one game at a time.

  • Same Treadmill, Different Style (Score:3, Interesting)

    by miyako ( 632510 ) <miyako AT gmail DOT com> on Friday January 07, 2005 @01:07PM (#11289363) Homepage Journal
    I played the original A Tale in the Desert quite a bit back in the day, and I've considered trying ATITD2 for a month to see what's new. I have to say that I did enjoy the original ATITD quite a bit for a while, the people at eGensis did a really great job putting together a non-combat MMORPG- but it did have problems.
    I think the problem with the non-combat MMORPGs is the exact same problem as with more standard MMORPGs, just that it tends to show a bit more. The problem is the oft-discussed leveling treadmill.
    A lot of people play more traditional MMORPGs because they like to gain prestige through having level 100 characters with +50 swords of dragon slaying and armor of holy protection and more money than god. In a non-combat MMORPG you take away those carrots, and basically all that's left is to see how boring a MMO game really can be at times. It's not that they are any more boring than City of Heros or Evercrack, just that without levels and rare items to work toward, the borning treadmill beneath the game shows itself a bit more
    The real saving grace of ATITD was the community. With a relatively small number of people, and the afore mentioned lack of level and item status symbols, the game didn't attract griefers like many other games do, and I think that it helped having a good community, but at some point you realize that you are still doing the same thing over and over again.
    Instead of "Go to A and kill mob X, then go to B and kill mob Y" it's "plant and harvest flax, let flax rot while mining for ore, seperate flax, start making cloth/canvas, make charcoal". Instead of levels, occasionally you'd get enough resources to learn a skill or complete a test.
    I think the problem with many MMO games is the higherarcy of power- that is to say there really isn't one. You have the GMs who work for the company and will occasionally run games, and then you have a whole mess of players.
    I think the solution to this will involve some way for players to create their own quests, more powerful characters will be able to exert more influence and run larger, more spread out quests. I think that this is the type of innovation that will probably start in a non-combat game at first anyway, if only because the logistics implementation are simpler when you don't have to deal with mobs and boss monsters and weapons and such.
    Things like that were even starting to happen when I last played ATITD, larger guilds were offering rewards for rare items, or for hard-to-make items, so that they could build buildings or produce items.
    I was a member of a medium sized guild, and there were cases where our guild would host a part and invite people and then offer up goods in exchange for players completing a quest, so that we could get items to trade up to a larger guild.
    Anyway, I've been rambling on- somewhat incoherently, but what I was trying to say was this: I don't think the problem with non-combat MMO's is their lack of combat, I think that the problem is one that is systemic to the entire genre, and is only covered up cosmetically by the combat in more traditional MMO's. The decling interest in them is really just a symptom of the declining interest in the leveling treadmill that is present in all MMO games, however, I think that if done correctly, a non-combat MMO could bring some innovation that would eventually reach more traditional MMOs and revitalize the genre.
    • I disagree. I think combat MMOs are more compelling for three reasons:

      1. There is more randomness in combat, and that randomness occasionally presents an unforseen difficulty or a challenge. The variability makes it more interesting. Tradeskills, by contrast, have no variability in most MMOS. At least, no variability that presents a challenge that players can react to.

      2. Combat MMO monsters have (in compelling MMOs), a wide variety. They have different abilities, stats, and AI behaviour, all of which


    • Maybe saying the same thing...

      I think the problem with all multiplayer online games is thier inherently static nature. The best non-multiplayer games are those that lead you througha story with varying abilities and tasks to accomplish, but even these, after you've played all the way through, get set aside. Sure you may go back and play the story missions of Warcraft III or Starcraft or GTA again, just to recapture a bit of the excitement you got first playing it, but if the disk dissolved after you co

  • Good story? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AndreySeven ( 840823 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @01:10PM (#11289397)
    Since Orson Scott Card is going to help out with this, I hope it will be entertaining in a different type of way; I get sick of games in which the point is to level your character etc. Maybe this will set a precedent to put more of a story into Mass Multiplayer games. Is this the first "proposed" MM game that will employ a master writer? It's the only one that I can think of...

  • Recommended reading (Score:5, Informative)

    by bigbigbison ( 104532 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @01:14PM (#11289444) Homepage
    Some folks on here have suggested some of Orson Scott Card's fiction. I would also like to suggest some read his non-fiction. He is an outspoken critic of homosexuality [nauvoo.com] and gay marriage [ornery.org]. I read those works by Orson Scott Card and they were enough to convince me that I didn't want to read any of his fiction. Your mileage may vary, but it doesn't hurt to be an informed consumer.
    • I'm not anywhere near as big a fan of Card's essays as I am his fiction, but then again, there's a *huge* difference between the quality. His fiction generally paints nuanced, human characters whose motivations and actions make sense; his essays tend to seem very black and white and often don't. Don't judge one by the other.

      Though I might add the first essay is actually more nuanced than one might suppose.

    • > I read those works by Orson Scott Card and they were enough to convince me that I didn't want to read any of his fiction.

      I never heard of his essays before now, and didn't know he was a Mormon either, but I already didn't want to read any (more) of his fiction. The original "Ender" short story was entertaining, but it was the old-style short story whose primary point was the clever twist at the end. Expanding it to novel length just turned it into a shaggy dog joke. The Card novels that I've read, i

    • It always surprised me to find that out, in his book Songbird the main character has a homosexual encounter and is not looked down upon, and due to societal reasons his partner was punished quite severely and the whole tone of it was condemning that punishment.
    • He is an outspoken critic of homosexuality and gay marriage. I read those works by Orson Scott Card and they were enough to convince me that I didn't want to read any of his fiction.

      Would you care to make explicit how the logical jump from not liking the author's views to refusing to read his fiction works?

      And if he painted or composed music, would you also refuse to look at or listen to his works?
      • I look at it like this, in any given medium there are so many works that are great, good, or even just ok, that I can never consume all of them, so I need to make some sort of criteria on what I read, listen to, watch, play, or whatever. There is always some really entertaining thing I'm going to miss out on, so not agreeing with someone is reason enough.

        If that means I have to miss out on something great -- be it a book, movie, game, song, painting, or whatever -- then so be it, there are plenty of other

    • Re:Recommended reading (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rackhamh ( 217889 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @02:43PM (#11290311)
      Though I believe in the concept of an "informed consumer", if you refuse to frequent businesses, read books, and otherwise engage with people whose views differ significantly from your own, you will quickly become either a cult member or the loneliest person on the planet.

  • Pre-Civil War? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by oneiron ( 716313 ) on Friday January 07, 2005 @01:21PM (#11289532)
    Does that mean it will have slave trading? That would be strange. I guess you could ignore that piece of history for the sake of the game. That would be a little strange, also.
  • For the ultimate OSC-style twist, the game could borrow a trick from Fable only in reverse. As you level up, your character would get younger until all of the high-level uber-characters were less than ten years old.

  • Not necessarily combat-free (Score:3, Informative)

    by Teppy ( 105859 ) * on Friday January 07, 2005 @05:46PM (#11292191) Homepage
    I'm lead designer on this project.

    The Tales of Alvin Maker are not combat-free, and the would that we are building based on them isn't necessarily combat-free either. It's certainly not combat-centric, which puts it somewhere on the spectrum between most MMOs and a game like A Tale in the Desert. ATITD is, on the other hand, combat-free.

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