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Role Playing (Games) Government The Courts News

Setback for Marvel in NCSoft Lawsuit 70

Posted by Zonk from the thank-goodness-for-common-sense dept.
DeeFresh writes "An article on Gamesindustry.biz is reporting that Judge R. Gary Klausner dismissed many of the Marvel's claims against NCSoft. From the article: 'Judge Klausner also agreed with the defendants that some of Marvel's allegations and exhibits should be stricken as 'false and sham' because they were not actually created by users of the game but by Marvel itself.'" Commentary also available on Gamespot.com.
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Setback for Marvel in NCSoft Lawsuit More

Setback for Marvel in NCSoft Lawsuit

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  • okay i'm confused (Score:5, Funny)

    by Naikrovek ( 667 ) <jjohnson@p[ ]com ['sg.' in gap]> on Friday March 11, 2005 @03:51PM (#11914092)
    who do we like again? we like comic books and we like mmorpgs... so who is supposed to win this?

    thanks i have a headache now.

    • Easy (Score:2)

      by hsoft ( 742011 )
      Whoever has the fewest patents registered.
    • at least until NCsoft stops claiming ownership of their users' creations. Marvel kinda has to defend themselves there....

      • Re:Marvel (Score:1, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Hold on a second. Back when Universal sued Sony, the Supreme Court ruled that a company couldn't be held responsible for the actions of its customers. This is esstially the same thing. The City of Heroes guys are offering a product, in this case an MMORPG, and certain users are performing copyright infringement using that product. The company can't be held responsible for that sort of thing. It isn't like City of Heroes generated advertising using Marvel characters, they used just said "make your own s
    • Don't worry: Forming your own opinions and thinking for yourself gets easier with practice.
      • Don't worry: Forming your own opinions and thinking for yourself gets easier with practice.

        Yes, forming my own opinions and thinking for myself does get easier with practice.

  • The whole lawsuit should be considered a sham... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Danse ( 1026 ) on Friday March 11, 2005 @03:52PM (#11914098)

    Marvel's hypocrisy never ceases to astound me. If they had actually created all their characters rather than simply copying the ideas of others (who had often copied them from others still), then maybe they'd have a case. As it stands, Marvel wouldn't exist if they hadn't done things a whole lot "worse" than what they're suing NCSoft for.

    • Re:The whole lawsuit should be considered a sham.. (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Lie, cheat, and steal to get successful. Then change the laws so others can't do the same.
    • Reminds me of a simpsons episode:

      Myers: Okay, maybe my dad did steal Itchy, but so what? Animation is
      built on plagiarism!
      [lawyer slaps his forehead]
      If it weren't for someone plagiarizing the Honeymooners, we
      wouldn't have the Flintstones. If someone hadn't ripped off Sgt.
      Bilko, they'd be no Top Cat. Huckleberry Hound, Chief Wiggum,
      Yogi Bear? Hah! Andy Griffith, Edward G. Robinson, Art Carney.

      Myers: Your honor, you take away our right to steal ideas, where are
      • I must have seen that episode a dozen times. Only seeing it in print did the Chief Wiggum bit register properly. Great show. Find new things to laugh at even years after you thought you'd wrung an episode dry.
    • To be fair, how many different superpowers can you come up with?

      Really Strong Guy
      Really Smart Guy who makes gadgets
      Guy who can fly

      Mix in a few other powers, combinations of powers and female characters and you still have a pretty limited set to work with.

      It's only logical that some characters will be similar.

      LK

  • Where's the irony? (Score:4, Funny)

    by BrynM ( 217883 ) * on Friday March 11, 2005 @04:00PM (#11914174) Homepage Journal
    It would have been so perfect if the ruling had been "Worst lawsuit - evar!"

  • Copywriting ideas? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Mumpsman ( 836490 ) on Friday March 11, 2005 @04:17PM (#11914356)
    Is it just me or does this sound like Marvel is trying to claim ownership of super-heros as a concept? How is creating my character on-line to look like the Hulk any different than making my own Hulk halloween costume and wearing it out in public? I'm not claiming to be officially representing Marvel in any way, and you'd have to be a pretty big idiot to think I was.

    I play Call of Duty as "Dr. Johnny Fever" could the creators of WKRP have a case against me or the game developers? I call Shenanigans!
    • actually those ARE examples of copyright infringement under current law, especially since you are in fact actually representing yourself as a replica of those two very similar characters that are owned by those corporations.

      Now if you were doing it as a form of creative parody... that would be a whole different kettle of fish.
    • The difference in that case is that you're not making any money dressing up as the Hulk. NCSoft is making money when users run around as the Hulk.

      Marvel *should* be allowed to copywrite the Hulk. They shouldn't be allowed to copywrite the idea of makng superheroes and playing them in games, though.

      This case would be a slam dunk for NCSoft in my mind if it wasn't for the claws power. Three metal claws than come out of the knuckles and go "snikt?" They could have done a little better there...
      • Actually, there are some Asian cultures which have weapons similar to the "claws", so it's not as though Wolverine's weaponry are something Marvel can claim exclusive rights to; they can only claim Wolverine himself. As for the way they come out, and make noise, well, just about every weapon in CoH makes noise when drawn, and they all seem to come from odd little "pocket universes" around the wielder's body...
        • I agree, but if you play coh you know how strikingly similar the claws power is to Wolverine. It's the way they look, how they come out, the sound, the stance the avatar takes once they're out, the powers that use them. That powerset specifically is basically a Wolverine Construction Kit(TM).
      • Except that Marvel doesn't have a copyright on claws coming out of knuckles with a sound effect. What they have is the rights to a character named Wolverine with those qualities. It's like saying that any superhero with super speed that leaves a trail behind him is a Flash ripoff.
      • And the face paint manufacturer is making money by selling the green paint I used to make my halloween costume. So technically they could also be sued.

        I guess if I want to see great games continue to be able to be published I better go home and change my charaters name to "Player". Or would that then open the game industry to lawsuits from Snoop Dogg?

      • Three metal claws than come out of the knuckles and go "snikt?"

        Look at Vega's weapon [geocities.com] in Capcom's Street Fighter II, and compare it to Wolverine's. If "Marvel vs. Capcom" weren't an arcade fighting game, it would be a lawsuit.

        • Volverine's claws are mounted into his skeleton or something, Vega uses a weapon mounted to his wrist. Claw weapons are historical, claw implants aren't. But no matter what, you can only copyright a design, not the idea behind it.
      • No. They shouldn't.
        They should be allowed to trademark the Hulk.

        Big difference.
    • I'm not claiming to be officially representing Marvel in any way, and you'd have to be a pretty big idiot to think I was.
      It doesn't matter if you are claiming to represent them or not, if a reasonable person can be confused then you have violated Marvel's copyright/trademark. If you're drunk at a costume party no big deal, since reasonable people would understand you are not representing marvel. If you're in front of a comic book store alone cursing out kids, then a reasonable person could infer that y
      • If you're in front of a comic book store alone cursing out kids, then a reasonable person could infer that you represent marvel and you would in fact be damaging the value of their property.

        Ok, that right there shows you have no recognition of what "reasonable" is.
        • Ok, that right there shows you have no recognition of what "reasonable" is.
          Somebody in a Hulk costume at a location where comic books are sold; it's a location where you would suspect brand promotion, hence it would be reasonable to infer there is a link between the person and the Marvel.
      • If you're in front of a comic book store alone cursing out kids, then a reasonable person could infer that you represent marvel and you would in fact be damaging the value of their property.

        Or if you're a lawyer trying to sue a game for allowing fans of Marvel to play characters like their favourite heroes... oh, wait, they are doing that.

        Lawyers and good publicity don't mix. Besides, Marvel went to great lengths to try to screw Stan Lee out of every penny they make on the characters he created. I have n

  • The Judge... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tprime ( 673835 ) on Friday March 11, 2005 @04:22PM (#11914401)
    Now, how do we get this judge to preside over the ongoing debate of fair use in the digital world? Judge Klausner seems to actually "get it" that just because a product exists, it isn't going to immediately be used to steal or infringe upon copyrights.

    I have a feeling that the judgement in this case is actually bigger than we realize right now.

  • DC vs. Pixar? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by White Roses ( 211207 ) on Friday March 11, 2005 @04:35PM (#11914577)
    On the basis of this, shouldn't DC be suing Pixar? I mean, "Elastigirl" is basically "Plastic Man" with breasts (and Plastic Man could have breasts anyway, he's plastic!). They have some of the same letters ("lasti"), and sound superfically similar. Plus, evil Pixar even flaunted it by putting Elastigirl in a red outfit! I mean really.

    Gazerbeam? Total rip-off of Cyclops (Marvel again).

    The point is, in most cases, the super-hero genre is a string of characters with similar abilities all with slightly different names or secondary powers. There's going to be a lot of overlap. Marvel would have to prove that NCSoft set out to promote said infringement. That's not the case. NCSoft is more like Xerox (or, say, a beat-up old Canon multifuction ink jet printer/copier/fax): you can make "infringing" copies, but (a) that's not the intent and (b) the copies all kinda suck anyway [gamegirladvance.com].

    • Re:DC vs. Pixar? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by MRL1979 ( 867014 )
      I could be mistaken, but I believe DC actually did make some "requests" of Pixar due to DC's already-existing (4th-tier) character Elastic-Girl. As I understand it, the agreement reached was that Pixar could use the name in the movie, but not in outside promotional pieces, which is why she's labelled "Mrs. Incredible" in the print ads (at least the ones I've seen). Of course, this is all just what I've heard third-and-fourth-hand, so it could be bunk.
    • Actually I find it's more a rip off of the Fantastic Four. Mr Fantastic - stretches Invisible Woman - force fields / invisibility Thing - strong Human Torch - fire Just make a few minor changes to satisfy the lawyers and voila.

    • Re:DC vs. Pixar? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Minna Kirai ( 624281 )
      On the basis of this, shouldn't DC be suing Pixar? I mean, "Elastigirl" is basically "Plastic Man" with breasts

      No, it's totally Marvel's Fantastic 4 there.

      A) The Incredibles [apple.com], a superhero team/family of 4 members, lead by Mr. Incredible, who named the team after himself. It includes a husband/wife and brother/sister. One of them is tough and strong, one is invisble and makes force-field bubbles, one stretches out limbs, and one runs fast. There's also a super-powered baby who's not exactly in the team

  • Join Em! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by blueZhift ( 652272 ) on Friday March 11, 2005 @04:40PM (#11914623) Homepage Journal
    Now that Marvel's silly claims are falling flat in court, it might be a good time for them to team up with NCSoft and give their fans what they want. Why not go ahead and license the characters to NCSoft in a special expansion pack with a premium monthly surcharge? Fans who want to play as or against Marvel characters get what they want, and Marvel and NCSoft get some extra cash. This seems to make so much more sense than duking it out in court.

  • Frivolous Copyright Claims (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Ghetto_D ( 670850 ) on Friday March 11, 2005 @04:55PM (#11914820)
    If legislation like this is actually passed, will kids be sued for homemade costumes? If you send your son treak-or-treeting in a homemade Spiderman costume because you couldn't afford an officially endorsed one, will you be fined? Will every 5 year-old boy who dreams of flying and runs around his backyard be sued for copyright infringement?
  • I think the most interesting point here is how Marvel tried to submit 'evidence' involving characters that THEY had made in the game. Duplicates of their characters that no normal user had ever produced.
    • ..except for "W 0lverine" on Protector, of course. And Mr. Incredible
      and..
      • Exactly. Were they supposed to sit around taking screenshots of players until they found a good one? They're sueing the people who made the game, not the people who play it. Why would it matter who created the characters when the crux of the accusation is just that it's possible?
        • It goes back to the pencil argument so prevalent when this story first broke.

          Making them themselves is like having Marvel artists buy a box of Faber Castell #2 pencils, drawing up Wolverine and Spidey and Doc Oc and Bananaman and...

          and then taking those as "evidence" that FC should be sued because their product "can be used to infringe [trademarks]"

  • ISP style protection upheld (Score:4, Interesting)

    by snuf23 ( 182335 ) on Friday March 11, 2005 @06:33PM (#11915621)
    Now I find this really interesting:

    "He further dismissed Marvel's claim for a judicial declaration that defendants are not an online service provider under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which offers a degree of protection in such cases."

    I never even would have thought of using that as a defense, although in retrospect I guess it makes a degree of sense.
    This is the same protection afforded to ISPs that make them not liable for transfer of copyrighted materials over their connections.
    The difference to me is that NCsoft is providing the tool (software) which is allegedly being used to create the infringing works whereas an ISP is merely the transport mechanism that could be used for illegal copyrighted works.
    The comparison to the VCR case is very interesting as well. The VCR can also be used as a transport mechanism for duplication of illegal copyrighted works, but it is not a tool that can create materials that violate copyrights.
    Go NCsoft! Throw Marvel out of the courtroom!

    And for everyone who says that Marvel MUST file this lawsuit or risk losing rights to its intellectual property - if so how come we haven't seen identical suits filed by DC Comics and other superhero creators?

  • How does the character creation works :

    What I got from previous articles on this lawsuit, you can change the body-size of someone ; Going from small to 'Hulk'-proportions :
    What can you shape ? (like, can you choose between a few templates, or can you manually enlarge/change the upper/middle/bottom part ?)

    As for the textures ; What assets can be used by the player to create his hero ?
    for instance, if someone is given the option of exactly the same wrist-blades Wolverine would have ; Wouldn't that be in

    • I can help here.

      Body size -- As of the Issue #4 patch going in soon, you can re-scale torso, chest, shoulders, nose, eyes, head, etc, etc. It's a full control over body shape. You start with three bases, male, female and "huge"... but there are hundreds of "huge" style super heroes, not just hulk, so nothing innately about that screams Hulk.

      Textures -- You can't give them specifically ripped purple shorts. There are no ripped shorts. You can give them some sort of purple pants or tights, but not the speci
      • Thank for the explanation.
        As you're bringing up the claw(animations) : You sure that other things might not be ripped off (not a Marvel/comic fan myself),but I would imagine Hulk (having seen the movie, and read some of the comics) also has some 'moves' which are fairly well recognisable (hard to explain) by his character.
        Same would go for maybe Cyclops, etc.
        I'm not saying that even how a character moves might be copyrighted (nor does the judge apparently ;)) and clearly they have been inspired by Marvel
    • You can simply look at the examples in the CoH webpage [cityofheroes.com].

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