Playstation 3 Not A Video Game Machine 229
Gamespot has coverage of a pair of interviews with Ken Kutaragi in which he states that the PS3 isn't really a gaming console. Instead, it will be an all around device that will allow the owner to experience all sorts of different types of new entertainment. From the article: "The PS3 is the product we have been aiming for since the establishment of SCEI...We haven't been creating our [past] PlayStations for the sake of games. Our belief, and the motivation behind running our company, has been to [explore ways of] applying the power of computers to entertainment and enjoyment. We equipped the original PlayStation with a 3D graphics chip, and we equipped the PS2 with the Emotion engine. The PS3 isn't designed to lean towards games. It's not a computer for children. In the sense that our goal has been [to create] a computer that's meant for entertainment, you could say that the original PlayStation and PlayStation 2 had existed as steps towards the PlayStation 3."
Sony = MS? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Sony = MS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Sony = MS? (Score:3, Informative)
Rumor has it that you'll need an add-on to play DVDs on the Revolution, which is fine with me. I already own 2 DVD players and when I starting looking to buy a next-gen console, I want something to play games, not manage my media collection. I'll buy dedicated devices for different tasks (e.g. movie playback, music playback, etc.). I doubt that Nintendo lost many sales by not having DVD playback in the GC and I doubt that MS gained many sales by having DVD playback in
Re: Sony = MS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Then Nintendo is still pretty successful. It made more profit than Sony did during the 32/64 bit gen, and it's not far away from Sony in profits this gen (given how far behind it is in market share). Nintendo is a profit master, always have been.
Re: Sony = MS? (Score:2)
More like a media control machine (Score:2, Interesting)
Sony controls the bootloader (Score:2)
In an age where ANYONE can have a voice (look at blogs)
How do you reconcile your rant with the fact that PS1, PS2, and PS3 have a secret bootloader?
Companies only exist because people use their services, if they alienate the customers and screw them over, something better will come along.
How will customers be able to tell that they're being screwed over? See also the parable of the boiling frog.
if it wasn't a game machine... (Score:2, Interesting)
well i guess you can play music and movies... uh nevermind.
Not a game machine... (Score:3, Funny)
I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my computer (Score:5, Interesting)
The more you focus on trying to be everything to everyone, the more you start to fail everyone in everything. Focus on your core, the stuff you're good at, and you will have those interested in that core beating a path to your door.
Also, the codec comment is a little disturbing. Codecs do matter. If you have unlimited processing power, you still cannot convert a privately held codec due to the DMCA. Also, converting things to the PSP format is what it seems to imply, but I think that's a very small feature in the big picture.
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:2)
Great for you but, as odd as this may sound on Slashdot, computers are not for everybody. I'm reminded of this every time I go home and help my family put their computers back together again.
I think most people outside of Slashdot just want a machine that works. Put in the disk and it plays (no install, don't worry about drivers, DLLs, or Codecs). Updates are automatic. Everything is presented on your TV and can be accessed with your remote control.
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:5, Insightful)
Cost is a big issue, because it's one of two things that consoles really have going for them (the other being ease of use, which I'll get to in a moment). Basically, consoles can deliver a whole lot of bang for the buck because they've historically used less powerful hardware, but been much much more optimized specifically for gaming. You can either despecialize the hardware (and become more computer-like), or just throw enough raw power into it that software can pick up the slack. The second option seems to be sony's chosen path, and the high price tags being thrown around for the PS3 reflect that.
Ease of use is the other one. How functional beyond games can something get with a game controller as a primary interface? Once you add a keyboard and a mouse, you're going back to a computer. I guess the point is, this convergence thing is going to be a simplified computer, or a beefed up video game console.
I'd have more faith in a computer company (Apple comes to mind first), successfully paring down their knowledge into something workable than I would a company like Sony kludging together a bunch of different pieces well.
Like the parent post said, the computer is an all in one magic box. It's already here, it's been around for a while, people have experience with it. All that's left is to strip out some of the extra parts and make it easier to use. Sony still has to build something that works first, then strip out the extra stuff, and make it easy to use. That first step is hard.
MS would seem to be in a better position than Sony to do this, except stuff that just works has historically been rather difficult for them.
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:3, Insightful)
Games, movies, music, VVoIP (voice and video chat), PVR, etc. All things you can do on your PC, but they could be done easier on a next-gen console.
Over time, I can see this expanding to cover things like web-browsing (as people switch to HDTVs and websites adjust content) and on-demand news and entertainment.
I don't see this beco
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:2)
However, if one looks at the standard apps that come with OS X that deal with media, one will find that most of them have a full-screen or "tv-oriented" functionality already built into them. DVD Player will go full-screen with a remote thing and is very straight-forward. iPhoto will give you little forward/back buttons and
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:2)
Re:Pippin bombed (Score:2)
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:2)
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:2)
Spoken like a true slashdotter...most of us think RTFAing is a huge mistake too.
Re:I have an 'all in one magic box', it's my compu (Score:2)
And THAT is why you shouldn't count out Nintendo! (Score:5, Insightful)
We like iPods, we like Cell phones, we like digital cameras, but we don't buy PDAs that do all three. Even camera-phones are tremendously underwhelming to all but tech-nerds and 14-year-old girls.
I would suggest that Nintendo is poised for a MAJOR comeback if they do the system right. They have said in no uncertain terms that the revolution is about games, not convergence. You heard it here first.
Re:And THAT is why you shouldn't count out Nintend (Score:2)
Re:And THAT is why you shouldn't count out Nintend (Score:4, Insightful)
Which of course is because that nothing that does all three does any of them particularly well. Link me to a device that will play my music with at least 20 gigs capacity, allow me to use it as a drive, and have features at least approaching an iPod or another highend mp3 player; be a cell phone with entertaining ringtones (ok, this isn't hard); and is a digital camera with at least 5 megapixel reso and optical zoom, very good pixel quality, and other "good" digital camera options, and I'm all over it. Oh, and throw in features of a low to mid end GPS as well, and some generic PDA features. And it better be pretty small as well -- should fit in my pocket with no problem. And it should all integrate with my PC.
Helluva task for some designer, not to mention keeping the price of this down since you're miniturizing everything.
Would you like that with the 10 min internal (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And THAT is why you shouldn't count out Nintend (Score:2)
Re:And THAT is why you shouldn't count out Nintend (Score:2)
The big do-it-all box doesn't seem to have hurt Dell's sales.
The integrated stereo -- now home theater -- system was displacing component audio forty-five years ago. Fisher Model 800-B Receiver (1962) [antiqueradio.org]
Camera phone sales are skyrocketing. 36 percent of shipments in 2004, an estimated 55 percent this year, 87 percent in 2009 Restrictions placed on ca [sfgate.com]
Re:And THAT is why you shouldn't count out Nintend (Score:2)
Re:And THAT is why you shouldn't count out Nintend (Score:2)
"more and more like Fark"
I am commenting on this as being an accelerating phenomenon.
Asshat.
Oh now I've done it!
Sony's BS Machine (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell me what an emotion engine is, exactly, and why anyone should care? It's a processor. Woopty doo, you gave your video game machine a processor.
Unprecidented.
The PS3 will not be a supercomputer. The PS3 will cost $300 - $500. When an IBM workstation with dozens of PowerPC cores costing half a million dollars can only do 40 or so GigaFLOPs, there's no way in hell that the PS3 (based on the same basic Power Processor architecture) can do 2 TeraFLOPs. Not if they're measuring the same thing anyway. Otherwise, why doesn't IBM just use those in it's big iron instead of Power PCs, and market themselves as offering "A Gazillion YottaFLOPs!!!!"
Because IBM has a reputation to uphold, and they market to people who aren't teenagers dazzled by the biggest number they can think of. The people they market to will hold them to their promises.
Sony is just hype.
Yes, digital convergance. Yes, bringing it all together. Blah blah blah. Sony, you're not the only one working toward this goal, and frankly, you're not NEARLY in the position MS is in to offer it. Their market penetration on the desktop PC gives them a powerful edge, as does the fact that they started doing it in the last generation, so people who were looking for that kind of convergance already found a good thing with the X-Box.
Sony should not be allowed to market.
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
Something along the lines of an Athalon , a Xeon , a xenon
They all do have really silly names when you think about it
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
You can sort of tell that it didn't work, because nobody outside of sony marketing ever talks about
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
There all as bad for trying to drum up hype with daft names , sony just didit in a style more beffiting of japanese culture
I do like apples name schemata of late g3 -g4 -g5 (g = generation i belive) which is rather apt.
I actualy prefer sonys style , its less marketing madness to me
for example i can see in a rather dilbert esque was intels marketing department comming out with "How about pentium , its a mix of penthouse , premium , pent
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2, Insightful)
I was with you until this point. Sony nor Microsoft are in any better or worse position for this convergance, they merely have different working
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
Agreed that it wasn't a part of the platform. But the number of people that went out and modded their Xboxes may have helped to indicate to Microsoft that it is the right time for a "convergence box". One not based on Windows Media Center, but a lower cost offering.
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
More than just the PS2 (Score:4, Informative)
The Xbox was going to be the ultimate conversion device, that brought gaming and networked communication to a head, with possible movie and music delivery services. The PS2 was the same. Nintendo stayed away. Going Back a generation, The Dreamcast and Saturn were both convergent devices, with modems and browsers. The Playstation talked a good talk about becoming the center of you digital universe, but didn't do anything about it. Nintendo also stayed away. In the generation before, the Genesis had a modem and console-to-console communication services, as well as being one of the first devices to support a cable modem of sorts. By the end of it's life, it was going to become the center of your multimedia universe, to compete with 3DO, CDI, Pippin, Turbo Duo, and everyone else time forgot. Nintendo promised a modem and a CD player (the playstation, oddly enough), but didn't deliver. During the previous generation, the NES had the odd distinction of being the first console you could legally gamble upon, with a modem connection to a state lottery. It also had knitting machines and a whole host of useless accessories in Japan to help it become the Family Computer (FamiCom) it was named after. They also used ROB in the US to sell the machine as "more than a game machine," then promptly dumped the adorable useless thing. I don't recall any moves on the Mastersystem's part during this time, though remember that the mastersystem had games on both cards and cartridges, and nobody really discovered what they had planned for that expandability.
Before the NES, the line between consoles and computers was extremely blurry, with ATARI computers competing with ATARI consoles and Intellivisions competing with Colecovisions. Ok, I was too young to remember much of anything but Bullwinkle cartoons. But remember, back then these things basically were computers, with keyboards and recipe programs and typing applications. They were basically all omni machines, and if they weren't they promised the functionality that they could become one.
In other words, everyone is offering the omni machine. Everyone. It's marketing. Everyone knows that the PSP is about as useful as a movie player as your watch, but still they hype the possibility to sell more PSP's. Your living room monitor is a crappy screen to read text from, but people still like to hear that their console will connect to the internet and let them read their mail.
The FLOPS issue is not as big as you would think. Supercomputers are expensive primarily because they're custom, and use extra hardy equipment, not because there is a particular ops to cost ratio. Plus the PS3 is optimized to push as many FLOPS as quickly as possible through, for maximum graphics throughput, with really no eye to what to do with them. 8 chips on die with really long multiple pipelines working in tandem? Basically if this thing had to think out of order, that efficiency will quickly come crashing down, and I doubt it has a lot of registers, but on linear datasets with no dependencies this puppy will scream. My PC rates as 3 GigaFLOPS for the main CPU, and it's a few years old. And it can actually think. Add in clock cycles for the graphics processor and the other chips onboard, and I could see a modern computer with a modern graphics card ranking as 20 GigaFLOPS. Now with a few years yet to be released, and a development cycle designed almost exclusively to do ridiculous amounts of mechanical transformations to fixed data pipelines, and I could see 2 TeraFLOPS being possible. Much like Intel pushing the P4 MHz rating artificially high, this would be high for basically artificially engineered reasons, but it's definitely possible. By the time this ships, Blue Gene should have passed the PetaFLOP barrier. And as both of these are IBM's babies, they should have the technical knowhow.
When Nintendo teamed with SGI to create Project Reality, the specs they announced were truly insane. By the time they actually shipped that machine, the N64, the specs were still the same but because of the elapsed time they were just generally good.
I agree with 99% of what you're saying (Score:2)
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
It's a 32-bit MIPS processesor that thinks it's a "128-bit system". Shhh, don't say anything. It also still believes in Santa Claus.
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
Holy shit the PS3 beats the Xbox360 because we have a BIGGER BAR on our bar graph!
Ever since the PS2's launch, I've found it hard to beleive anything that comes out of Sony's mouth.
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:2)
I don't own an x-box nor a PS2. I own a couple PS2 games, because, well, I had to play Katamari Damacy and a couple others. For the most part, I game on the 'Cube and PC.
Thanks for the info, but the numbers still don't jive. What Sony's offering for $400 vs what IBM's offering now... Night and Day.
Re:Sony's BS Machine (Score:3, Insightful)
The "emotion" engine. Riiight. (Score:3, Interesting)
The closest you can get to claiming the PS2 had functions other than games was the DVD playback; and a lot of folks DID buy them for just that purpose, but it still primarily was a game console.
Throw in a Tivo-like system and an out of the box way of delivering eyetoy video emails and an integrated online network with consistent user logins and THEN you can start calling it an Entertainment Computer or whatever you decided on this week.
Sarcasm level 11 (Score:5, Funny)
The emotion engine was not hype at all, it was used to full effect in Gran Turismo 3
Every AI opponent you faced had their whole life simulated before the race. Their upbringing, how they got into racing, what happened to them in previous races, etc was generated randomly and the racer would react according to this.
For example, one racer may be brought up in a poor family, only racing to make enough money to put food on the table. Once, he almost won a 50000cr race, but spun out on turn 11 of Laguna Seca, and got injured for 5 years. Now, in the race you're competing against him in, there is a turn that resembles the turn in Laguna Seca that caused his tragic injury. But he also needs this money or his parents won't be able to afford the medical care they need. Should he risk it all at the turn, or just let you pass? So many conflicting emotions!
So he just drives in a predetermined pattern completely ignoring the position of his opponents, like the AI in Pole Position.
Re:Sarcasm level 11 (Score:2)
Nintendo always sounds best (Score:2, Insightful)
When I get home from work and before going to bed, all I really want to do is load something up and get some thrills from killing people with a big noisy gun. Whoever delivers that best wins.
Re:Nintendo always sounds best (Score:4, Insightful)
His point was that Nintendo's public assertions concerning their purpose is more to his liking, and that he bases his purchases on the games offered. It seems that he likes games in which he can "kill people with a big noisy gun." Ignoring my opinion that a nice PC can compete on that front, XBox definitely leads the current consoles in the killing-with-a-noisy-gun genre. It's the only console with Halo, Halo 2, and Doom 3, with Half-Life 2 on the horizon, and the cross-platform games tend to play and/or look best on the XBox (e.g. the Splinter Cell games. And yeah, the PC versions can look even better, but this is about consoles).
I think I'll probably end up with a 360 and a Revolution in the next round (accidental pun!). I like dedicated gaming systems, but I'm interested to see how well Microsoft handles their convergence efforts. PS3 is a toss-up for me, based on game selection and price, but I'll probably wait regardless.
Re:Nintendo always sounds best (Score:4, Funny)
It's really too bad that Sony didn't come up with a name that involved some sort of spinning. Then we'd have no problem coming up for a name for this generation of consoles.
Then again, Sony seems to be the master of spinning hype and news... maybe they figured they didn't need to add it into the console's name as well -- people figured it was assumed.
New Entertainment? (Score:2, Insightful)
What are all these types of new entertainment? What have I missed?
Re:New Entertainment? (Score:4, Funny)
I don't know, but it probably starts with a "po" and ends in "rn". Yup.. popcorn, that's what I was thinking about.
Why Buy It Then? (Score:2)
If Sony announced the Playstation wasn't going to have games for the first year of release because it wasn't a game system, how many would they sell?
Re:Why Buy It Then? (Score:2)
Either that, or I missed all the business applications that ran on the Playstation2. ;)
The set top box is an illusion (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The set top box is an illusion (Score:2)
But, I want my console to play DVDs because they can do so without compromising the gameplay requirement, and because I dislike having more boxes when I can have fewer.
Re:The set top box is an illusion (Score:2)
It seems pretty clear that Sony stuck the nub in at the last minute without much thought or user testing. What sucks even more is that they'll likely keep the same layout for any subsequ
Re:The set top box is an illusion (Score:2)
Translation: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not complaining, an XBox Live equivalent would be nice and some media functions are alright. If it play's HD DVD that's just dandy. Much of what they've talked about over the last few weeks however is just a bit of software the PS1 was more than capable of (minus hddvd) from a processing power standpoint.
As for the interview... They can posture, reposition, and justify all they want. Working all the talking points and feature equivalents 'till they're blue in the face. But it still, sounds like something they made up in a meeting yesterday rather than something I'd really want to do. I deffinately don't believe that the PS1 and PS2 were stepping stones to "aging" video online into HD as if that were possible.
Maybe they will do something interesting, but nobody is going to care if there aren't any games worth playing at launch.
Re: (Score:2)
entertainment supercomputer!? (Score:2, Informative)
Bah (Score:2)
Rob
The Playstation 3 is not a game machine... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The Playstation 3 is not a game machine... (Score:3, Funny)
Positioning it to avoid tax? (Score:2, Interesting)
And I would love them to include a small language again, preferably Python with SDL bindings - thank you :)
Too... much... retarded PR stuff... (Score:2)
Another stupid part:
"In terms of codecs, the Cell has the power to easily transcode high-quality [pictures and audio] in real-time. So [file] formats won't really be too important,"
File formats won't be important? So the PS3 magically reads everything? What are they tryi
You could have it right now! (Score:2)
Okay, you know us MythFans would get all foamy about that.
Reality check (Score:2, Informative)
- Next-gen games will look only marginally better then current high-end PC games (Doom3, HL2, etc).
- This will be the *smallest* step between generations we have seen so far. (The current consoles are quite capable!)
- For devs, the biggest difference is that most games will need to have some sort of online play to remain competitive.
- Nintendo will distribute low-budget games online (billing service included). Expect Sony and MS to do the same.
Re:Reality check (Score:2)
Off course not! is a George Foreman Griller! (Score:2)
Why do they have to call it a computer? (Score:2)
I remember when the Sega CD was getting close to a US launch and all of the magazines had screenshots of Japanese games and specs on the m
Re:Why do they have to call it a computer? (Score:2)
For some reason it bums me out to see the line between computers and video game systems fade away.
The line is still there, all right. The primary difference is that video game consoles have a secret bootloader. And wasn't calling it a "computer" intended to put it in a tax shelter?
Been saying it all along... (Score:2)
Most families are going to be put off by the high price tags, complex nature, and low number of games produced for these two "consoles." Production is going to be very expensive and time intensive, this generation will
Re:Then what is it? (Score:2)
Ray: "C'mon, not now, Ma, please."
Marie: "Is it for pornography?"
Debra: "Yes, Marie, I got Ray a porn machine."
Marie: "I don't like that, Debra."
Re:Then what is it? (Score:2)
Re:PLAYstation 3... (Score:2)
Re:The obligatory (Score:3, Insightful)
And, honestly, what new things are we going to see to make it really worth it? Can you really improve on DVD playing technology that much?
Re:The obligatory (Score:2)
Yes, you can give the consumer a player that can play back HD content. Then, of course, you can sell HD versions of the DVDs that consumers have bought in the last 5 or so years.
Re:The obligatory (Score:2)
Re:The obligatory (Score:2)
How about HD video, ITunes, video chat, p2p filesharing, web surfing, streaming, etc...
Re:The obligatory (Score:2)
It's called a Personal Computer, and it can do all of those things regardless of if you're running Windows, Linux or Mac OS X. And most of them these days already have TV-out on the graphics cards, so the issue of having all of these things in your living room is moot too. Even the cheap-o Mac mini and VIA ITX/nano-ITX computers have it.
The only thing that the PlayStation3 can do that a PC cannot do (and better) is play
Re:The obligatory (Score:4, Informative)
And perhaps the tax authorities' definitions of said word [wikipedia.org]?
Re:The obligatory (Score:2)
*cough* Betamax *cough* Minidisc *cough* VAIO *cough* Clie *cough* PSX *cough* PSP *cough*
Re:Obviously (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Obviously (Score:2)
Re: Remember all the hype... Emotion Engine? (Score:4, Interesting)
So I've been looking for any of the hype- Penny Arcade mentioned a tech demo video that was shown and complained that they certainly never saw anything like that coming out of their playstations. I have not been able to find that video
It was the Ballroom scene from FF8. They showed it rendered "in real time".
I can't find the video.. it was never released online, only shown at E3.
Here are some photos someone took of that scene though:
one [photobucket.com]
two [photobucket.com]
three [photobucket.com]
Re: Remember all the hype... Emotion Engine? (Score:2)
The scene in the picture is NOTHING like the prerendered ballroom scene. There's only one dynamic light (easy for any system even in those days), and there's no anti-aliasing just for starters. They purposefully made the scene very dark to de-emphasize the aliasing artifacts. The darkness also de-empahasizes the rendering hack that is the background. The ballroom scene in FF8 is much brighter.
The background is a hack, probably just a few dozen polygon
Re: Remember all the hype... Emotion Engine? (Score:2)
Re: Remember all the hype... Emotion Engine? (Score:2)
Re: Remember all the hype... Emotion Engine? (Score:4, Informative)
I forgot how much they love to hype bullshit.
Re: Remember all the hype... Emotion Engine? (Score:2)
Now let me bring to your attention an Xbox article. http://news.com.com/2100-1040-250632.html?legacy= c net [com.com] Check it out, especially this part:
"One of the basic premises of the Xbox is to put the power in t
Re:Sony has a point. (Score:2)
Backwards compatability was around before PS2 (Gameboys were, several consoles were too, but most required adapters.) The PSX controllers used ideas from their Nintendo predecessors (first controller was an inferior SNES clone, second took the analog stick from N64.)
No offe
Gameboy Color? (Score:2)
So Sony started the DVD thing, but Nintendo started the backwards compatibility.
Re:Gameboy Color? (Score:2)
"A Sega Master System converter was available for the Genesis, called the The Power Base converter. It plugs into the cartridge port and features cartridge slots for Sega Master System cartridges."
BUT WAIT!!! Even before the Sega Genesis you can go all the way back to the Atari 7800. It could play Atari 2600 games without a converter or anything...just like the PS2. If we want to give props for backwards
Re:Sony has a point. (Score:2)
Attention! This is an emergency! I need someone to take me back in time to 1984 so I can tell Atari that the way the Atari 7800 can play Atari 2600 games is an idea they are ripping off from Sony in the future!
Re:Sony has a point. (Score:2)
http://img219.echo.cx/img219/5600/atari7bd.jpg [img219.echo.cx]
Look at that and THEN try to call Sony an innovator.
Re:3DO...? (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, they had some nifty (for the time) multimedia features (I still think my Panasonic's FZ-1 trancified audio visualization was one of the best ever), but this whole 'media convergence' idea wasn't an egg hatched by the
Re:Not a gaming machine? That's a pity... (Score:2)
Re:Not a gaming machine? That's a pity... (Score:2)
Re:Not a gaming machine? That's a pity... (Score:2)
From their Fiscal 2003 report (I had that direct linked from something earlier, don't feel like searching the SEC website right now):
"Sony's sales for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2003 decreased approximately 2 percent and operating income decreased approximately 5 percent compared with the previous fiscal year."
From the same report regarding fiscal 2002:
"Sony's sales for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002 decreased approximately 4 percent co
Re:Not a gaming machine? That's a pity... (Score:2)
When you want to say whether a company was profitable or not, you look at