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Role Playing (Games)

The Divorce of MMO and RPG 58

Posted by Zonk from the mommy-and-daddy-are-fighting dept.
Jeff wrote to mention a new article up on Gamergod.com discussing the divorce of MMO and RPG. From the article: "At close inspection, their marriage reveals what is sadly becoming the new American love tragedy. Two people with little in common, more in lust than anything resembling love, decide to tie the knot. The rest is a classic example of what happens when two people leave the idea stage of marriage and enter the reality of marriage, and find out they don't like, let alone love, each other."
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The Divorce of MMO and RPG More

The Divorce of MMO and RPG

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  • The sad thing is (Score:4, Funny)

    by Kingrames ( 858416 ) on Saturday July 23, 2005 @12:41PM (#13144689)
    Most geeks don't understand what marriage is, let alone divorce.

  • Depends (Score:5, Interesting)

    by vga_init ( 589198 ) on Saturday July 23, 2005 @01:03PM (#13144824) Journal

    What makes a good RPG? To the author of the article, it seems to be a game ritch in depth; meaty dialogue, engaging story, the need to live more completely in another world. As he points out, this may not be a good game to pair with the MMO crowd (or most humans, for that matter). Excellent games I've played that contain all of what the author values most have been single player: (spanning across my own lifetime) Quest for Glory all the way up through Morrowind.

    There are, however, more aspects that define the genre of RPG. Leveling system is probably the main thing. Also included are the ability to explore, kill things, and acquire items/gold. The authors mention latter two only disdainfully, but one man's trash is another man's treasure. Lots of people playing online like leveling and getting new items. To them that's what the game is all about, and it gives them a fun context within which to socialize with other people in a not necessarily role playing manner.

    Based on the title of the article, I thought the auther would give real world examples of the two genres splitting, but it's really just his opinion. As far as I'm aware, most MMO games are still RPGs, and also, as far as I know, their popularity isn't exactly declining. So, when you look at sales as well as user base, is this supposed divorce fiction or reality?

    • Re:Depends (Score:4, Insightful)

      by shawb ( 16347 ) on Saturday July 23, 2005 @01:12PM (#13144865)
      Well, the author does forget one of the major classic elements of classic paper and pencil role playing games. You know... role playing. Acting out a character isn't really fun for most folks unless there are other people around doing the same. Without other people playing, it's not a role playing game; it's playing a video game based on the rules and type of settings that made RPGs succesful.

      • Re:Depends (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Winterblink ( 575267 ) on Saturday July 23, 2005 @01:25PM (#13144926) Homepage
        And even with thousands of people playing, it still isn't role playing. It's a bunch of people sitting in front of their PCs, trying to level like mad and get all the ph4t l3wt they can. In my time playing MMOs, I've seen maybe a dozen role players in total, across many games.

        I know there are more out there, a lot of them form guilds that are roleplaying only and play on roleplaying servers. But 90%+ of the rest of the population isn't interested. Which is sad, in my opinion. Roleplayers add to the game's atmosphere.

        • Re:Depends (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Danse ( 1026 )

          Well, those people are playing the game as warriors, wizards, rogues, etc. They may not speak or act like they should, but to them, they are playing the part of the character they created. The problem with MMOs is that everyone wants something different from the game, and those wants are usually not very compatible.

        • the crux of the problem is that most games don't reward roleplaying. in fact, roleplaying means you are gimping yourself, since you aren't killing monsters, getting loot and progressing the storyline.

          • Re:Depends (Score:5, Interesting)

            by Impy the Impiuos Imp ( 442658 ) on Sunday July 24, 2005 @08:03PM (#13152857) Journal
            the crux of the problem is that most games don't reward roleplaying. in fact, roleplaying means you are gimping yourself, since you aren't killing monsters, getting loot and progressing the storyline.


            I agree with you except the last phrase, "progressing the storyline." It doesn't really progress because of your actions (with a few exceptions noted later.)

            In City of Heroes, I just stopped the Council from releasing a warehouse full of Superadine, the drug that makes street thugs into low-level supervillians.

            Ok, fine.

            Now tell me that there was one single spawn point anywhere out in the main city of trolls or outcast or bonecrushers anywhere that disappeared, even temporarily. One spawnpoint that even reduced the rate of spawn, even temporarily.

            Hello? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

            Yes, the company will move the story along, slowly, to coincide with major publishes and/or expansion packs, in one-time events. But the only "player-led" change I can recall was in Star Wars Galaxies where each server would get/prevent the Rebels from getting one minor power depending on who won control of the most cities for the most days for a particular month or two.

            And, though it isn't roleplaying technically, the most exciting thing, invasions, are sorely lacking from MMORPG's. Too many whiners that it's messing up their plans to group with their friends and camp orcs somewhere. SHIT, GOOFBALLS, THERE'S AN INVASION!

            But spare me City of Heroes style invasion, which are just temporary spawn points of new monsters. I wanna see the possible loss of control of safety of a whole city area, not just a 2-week long temporary camp spot.
      • > You know... role playing. Acting out a
        > character isn't really fun for most folks
        > unless there are other people around doing the
        > same.

        In 3 years of playing Everquest, I met precisely one paladin who refused to group with necromancers.

        And the only real roleplayers I ever saw were the first 6 months or so being an ogre -- everyone who played an ogre role played. It wasn't too hard, just type like you're dumb, but it was there and it worked.

        When I retired that ogre, he was level 19, and alm

    • Re:Depends (Score:3, Interesting)

      by JonN ( 895435 ) *
      Lots of people playing online like leveling and getting new items. To them that's what the game is all about, and it gives them a fun context within which to socialize with other people in a not necessarily role playing manner.

      To prove the point, just look at Diablo II which is still a very popular game. I personally, and know of many people, only play now for the opportunity to achieve higher levels and finding new and cool items since I finished the game ages ago. Also, I would not call the dialog in D

    • What makes a good RPG?...Excellent games I've played that contain all of what the author values most have been single player

      One problem that doesn't seem to be mentioned a lot is that MMORPGs are always at risk of being bastardized. The environment is always changing, and chances are that if you've found a game you enjoy, it will be gone in the near future. Sometimes all it takes is one bad developer meeting, or an uninformed manager to make a permanent change to the UI, gameplay, theme etc. and suddenl
    • "Lots of people playing online like leveling and getting new items."

      Absolutely correct. Otherwise Diablo 2 would never have stood a chance.

    • The essence of roleplaying is making choices about characters. That seems broad but my idea of character is, I guess, narrow in the context of video games. Character is about what you do and say in a situation, and is not about combat abilities or spell damage. The RPG crowd uses the word very differently from the number crunchers.

      I myself am more of a number cruncher and I'm always after that next item to increase my armor value or critical hit rate. But I don't pretend I'm playing an RPG. These curr

  • Article text.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by dreamquick ( 229454 ) on Saturday July 23, 2005 @01:23PM (#13144917) Homepage
    ...since the site runs like a dog with no legs!

    The Divorce of MMO and RPG by Jeff on 07/22/2005

    The divorce of MMO and RPG has been a very public and extremely messy one, unfortunately. The sordid details can be found in any trashy, gossip message board across the internet, but the real question is why they ever got married in the first place, and what happened after.

    It is hard to nail down a precise date of when MMO and RPG met. Some say they started dating back during the MUD days; others contend it was slightly after. The relationship certainly bloomed during Meridian 59, and we all know the marriage was consummated with Ultima Online. Not long after Ultima Online launched however, problems began to crop up. Some claim they could not agree on how to raise the children. Others declare that they never had anything in common in the first place. Whichever it was, the marriage was officially on the rocks by the time of EverQuest. Now that the marriage is over, GamerGod will take a look at what was.

    At close inspection, their marriage reveals what is sadly becoming the new American love tragedy. Two people with little in common, more in lust than anything resembling love, decide to tie the knot. The rest is a classic example of what happens when two people leave the idea stage of marriage and enter the reality of marriage, and find out they don't like, let alone love, each other.

    RPG was often in her own world, a writer by profession living in a land of old dialects and wonderful stories. She found MMO to be awfully crude, intolerant of her stories and her world, continuously interrupted by his sports scores and a "me first" material acquisition agenda. MMO saw what he once thought of as cute become annoying, and her insistence that he not disrupt her stories was more than a little incommodious. RPG tried to save the marriage by spending more her time in her own room, the RP server she called it, but MMO too often followed her there anyway with blatant disregard for her rules. As if all of that was not bad enough, MMO started speaking a whole different language that RPG could barely understand. She started calling him a l33t speaker; he retorted that she was a Nazi. Clearly the acrimony was rising.

    The relationship never truly recovered, since there was nothing to recover. They had little in common in the first place, so there was little in their relationship to renew except for the idea togetherness. The idealism of their marriage was fun; the reality was a living hell for both sides.

    The end result is the aforementioned messy and public divorce. RPG has a lot of fun on her own again, hanging out with groups of friends, leaving MMO far behind. MMO lives his selfish and unimaginative lifestyle, as he had all along. Some claim the two will eventually get together again under the right circumstances, but I highly doubt it. It seems that they are a lot happier apart than they ever were together, thus the chance of the two reuniting is slim. Besides, last we heard, MMO was getting pretty hot and heavy with FPS: more news on that later.

    Discuss the divorce in our forums!
    • That is the stupidest metaphor, ever. I like metaphors as much as the next guy, but come on, that was stupid.

      There isn't a MMOFPS anyway, is there? I haven't heard of one. I'll stick to Battlefield 2 and Counter-Strike anyway.
    • "Besides, last we heard, MMO was getting pretty hot and heavy with FPS: more news on that later." - The last line of the article. All I gotta say is BRING ON THE THREESOME!! Lac
    • "RPG has a lot of fun on her own again, hanging out with groups of friends, leaving MMO far behind. MMO lives his selfish and unimaginative lifestyle, as he had all along."

      Is it just me, or is this whole article just Kharma-Whoring Conspiracy from elitest D&D types?

      PS. Some of my best friends are elitest D&D types... :P
  • That statement makes no sense. Everyone wants to be able to step inside another reality in some way or another. The MMO and RPG mediums seem like a pretty good way of doing that.
  • I assumed he came up with a dumb metaphor to use as a starting point for an article with some substance, but the entire piece drags the metaphor on and on without ever saying anything. It's painfully obvious that the author was very amused with himself.

  • I think he has a good point (Score:5, Interesting)

    by hyfe ( 641811 ) on Saturday July 23, 2005 @01:56PM (#13145091)
    Firstly, I think the author has a good point. Earlier MMO's all had elements of roleplaying in them, aswell as specific codes of conduct. The RP'ers could live peacefully on normal servers, and their opinions were generally respected.

    The massive influx of new players into MMORPGs have changed this though. Indictative of the whole problem is the whole cultureclash between veterans and newcomers concerning grouping problem. Old-timers find invites to groups without being asked first extremely offensive and are thus often constantly annoyed in WoW. Personally, I just view them as "we're grouped now because we're in the same area and we'll ungroup as soon as we're not" and don't mind them at all.

    RP'ers are, naturally, fairly "extreme" in what they'll accept of player-behaviour. As far as WOW goes atleast, their servers are also filled with nitwits, although the in far less numbers. However, only one asshole is needed to break the immersion, and there are a whole lot of assholes out there. Thus, I think ultimatly the entire RP'ing branch of MMO's are going to be relegated to their own games.

    Oh. and while we're on the subject, to the people here mentioning single-player games:
    There are very, very few single-player games requiring any sort of being in-character and offering any kind of immerson. Just because something is fantasy doesn't make it actualy roleplaying! Roleplaying requires a modicrum of immersion and character choice beyond Good/Evil. As such, the only games I've played which I'm willing to classify as RPG's, atleast to some extent, are Vampire: Bloodlines and Planescape: Torment.

    • Whoah there cowboy. I was with you up until you equated actively roleplaying to immersion. Immersion can play out without such elements, or it can come about because of them. People are pretty adaptable to different play environments of make believe.
  • Said it before, will say it again.

    I wish the 'MMO' developers had a history of playing MUDs. All these problems have been solved multiple times in the last fifteen or so years.
    • I wish the 'MMO' developers had a history of playing MUDs. All these problems have been solved multiple times in the last fifteen or so years.

      I haven't played a MUD for close to ten years, but I remember many of the same problems, only to a different degree.

      Is there a MUD that currently works, so I can try it out, and see how they've "solved" these problems?
      • Absolutely! Achaea.com, which has three spinoffs that are the same world (all most) with different numbers of people, has about 400 people on at any given time. I think they're causing more problems then solving (the admins) but that's just me. If you're interested in player-testing one and trying to be part of the solution yourself, check out simud.org. Its still in late-alpha/early-beta (I'm helping code it) but we need player-testers!

    • Couldn't agree more. There are some MMORPG developers with a strong background in MUDs. [redbedlam.com] though.
    • I'd beg to differ. While MUDs have a longer history, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're any better of a medium. As a former MUDder, I've seen alot of shit. I've played heavily on numerous MUDs, and to be honest, while some promote a healthy RP atmosphere, they're also riddled with abuse by the imms/imps. I say this as a former imm for a fairly established MUD (atleast well ranks on TMC). The problem is more so that the devs don't have a background in pen and paper roleplaying and other fantasy.

    • mod parent up (Score:3, Interesting)

      by william_w_bush ( 817571 )
      some did though. playing everquest i could feel the mud-influence, and after release it seemed like a mud with gfx and a few other addons. as time went by though, they kept adding more and more "heh, the quake kids will like this", and "ok so we just give this to everyone" bs that dumbed the game down unbelievably.

      ever play a mud? if you aren't skilled or paying enough attention you will die, a lot, and they can be frustrating, but taking that out of a game so you can sell to a wider audience just cheapens
  • I submitted a similar story just last week about how MMORPGs are being replaced by MCOs - massively casual online games like Neopets, Kart Rider and so on.
  • As long as the high level people in many games shoot down the beginners, this problem will never go away. Playing most Pencil and Paper D&D was with a close group of friends (or the same people whenever you play, usually) that atleast will respect each other when ever anything happens. Problem with anything MMO is that no one knows who is on the other end. Want to play a really good MMORPG? Your character meets some other local adventurers in the tavern, and you all decide to go to a mysterious cave
    • As long as the high level people in many games shoot down the beginners, this problem will never go away.

      No. You just have to make all players equal and do away with leveling and items that make players inequal.

      How would you do this without making the MMORPG into an MMOFPS? I don't relly know. One has to figure out a way to have time sinks without progression or inabalance between players so that a beginer with enough tactical knowledge has a fair fight against a vetern player.

      That said, veterns of all
      • I very rarely post but I most certainly agree with you. I thought I had found a game without imbalance when I first played A Tale in the Desert. On the tutorial map everyone was quite happy doing what amounted alot of time sink sort things. The goal was to build a boat to sail to the mainland if I remember correctly, but to complicate this you had to start with raw materials and build up crafting machines to make progressive steps of materials. This was great on the island everyone was friendly and helpfu
  • took a metaphore really too far. drives you away from the article, whatever might be the point.
  • let's take wow as an example of an mmorpg. at a first glance, it has nothing in common with these pen&paper rpg. but it has. you just develop your character in a more subtle way. you play 50h or 100h , and your character evolves. you don't influence this directly as you would do in an old school rpg, you influence it in the way you play. that's a progression.

  • RPG's. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kaenneth ( 82978 ) on Saturday July 23, 2005 @08:10PM (#13146901) Journal
    In a fantasy RPG, you generally want your character to be important to the world, doing things noone else can, etc. etc.

    when 2000+ people are like that in the same world, you lose your virtual uniquiness.

  • Anyone lamenting this... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by petrus4 ( 213815 ) on Saturday July 23, 2005 @08:34PM (#13146979) Homepage Journal
    ...needs to remember that tabletop AD&D was never mainstream to begin with. So with an MMORPG, you're basically trying to sell an extremely non-mainstream concept (RPG) to a mainstream (MMO) audience. Unless the definition of an RPG is changed somewhat for the mainstream audience, it isn't going to happen.

    MUDs (AFAIK, anyway) were never truly popular outside the intellectual crowd either, just like tabletop AD&D. Part of this group represented the original people playing Ultima Online, from what I saw, and when you have this group *alone* playing an MMORPG, you'll generally get a positive, relatively peaceful (albeit eclectic) experience. The crowd that are known as PvP players, "griefers" or "power gamers" in MMORPGs are the same 14 year old adrenaline/testosterone crazed idiots who you find either playing Quake 2 or CounterStrike (or collaborating with other such types to write the next big Windows virus on IRC) the rest of the time, AKA a particularly undesirable segment of the broader FPS crowd. (This is also the exact stereotypical group which the media tried to blame for the Columbine massacre.)

    These people are nothing remotely close to genuine roleplayers, and on close inspection, don't really intend to be. They log into a game like UO for four main reasons:-

    a) To kill people/things in a new environment.

    b) To deliberately upset and antagonise (true to their adolescent sociopath roots) genuine roleplayers. (who they view with contempt) 80%-90% of the PvP crowd fall into this category, despite their protests to the contrary.

    c) To attempt to gratify their ego by climbing to the top of the char level heap, and thus prove how "leet" they supposedly are.

    d) (Even more) to attempt to find some bug/exploit within the game mechanics in order to illegitimately climb to the top of the char level heap more quickly than would otherwise be possible, again for the same reason as c).

    In an ideal world, the primary solution to this problem would be to keep the archetypical FPS gamer from ever migrating to an MMORPG, but tragically, such is not possible. I am not at all surprised to hear that MUDs are currently enjoying a rennaisance; the reason for this would be so that genuine roleplayers can do what they've desired to do all along, i.e., roleplay, without the interruption of the aforementioned morons. My guess is that for a while at least, MMORPG operators are eventually going to find that their playerbase consists primarily of very casual players who also engage in RMT, (real money trading of in-game items) and the aforementioned FPS immigrants. As such, I'm also guessing that most fantasy-oriented MMORPGs are also going to become extremely mundane, chaotic places centred primarily around killing mobs, gold farming, and RMT. Storytelling or people playing for more conventional reasons are probably both going to largely move back into the MUD environment.

    • So with an MMORPG, you're basically trying to sell an extremely non-mainstream concept (RPG) to a mainstream (MMO) audience. Unless the definition of an RPG is changed somewhat for the mainstream audience, it isn't going to happen.

      The problem that keeps tabletop games out of mainstream focus is the fact that most people don't know what roleplaying is, even though we all see it and do it every day of our lives. It's just acting, it's not a difficult concept. However, it becomes nearly impossible to convi

      • I'd recommend Trials of Ascension [shadowpool.com] to you. Not likely to see it for a couple of years, though.
      • What's really needed right now is a game that the FPS crowd will initially flock to, play for a bit, then leave just as quickly because it puts them at a disadvantage by design, i.e. powergaming does nothing but consume hours that could have been spent dungeon-crawling with friends, or exploring the world, or engaging in a tradeskill. Griefing and being a jackass gets you in bad standing with other adventurers, and eventually kingdoms so that you're KOS for guards or adventurers alike.

        I don't think removi
    • I want to protest. I am neither a griefer nor 14yrs old. Yet I think that playing on PvP servers is a part of RPG's that is sorely missing from the RP servers provided by MMO games. If you cannot directly participate in the lives of your fellow gamers on the server then what effect/contribution do you bring to the table? The auction house? My recollection of the D&D, Cyberpunk, Battletech that *I* played included the possibility of at least attempting, anything my little mind could dream up. Artificia

  • and, as usual (Score:5, Funny)

    by MORTAR_COMBAT! ( 589963 ) on Monday July 25, 2005 @07:21AM (#13155121)
    it's the marriage's children (i.e. us) who are left to suffer the most.
  • I've played most of the popular RPG's recently, currently playing WoW and a little bit of Guild Wars after spending a long time playing Neverwinter Nights, but the game I'd label most closely RPG would have to be Hitman 2.

    I went from a professional, a guy who really cared about his job to a mad man on a killing spree. It only hit me toward the end what had happened, that I was feeling (and acting in game) the way 47 would.
  • No one goes to an MMORPG to acvcually role play, at least not on any official servers. The problem is that there are too many people some who are roleplayers and some who are not and the roleplayers differ vastly in their view of what is proper roleplay. I'll take UO for example. The OSI servers were pretty much filled with non-roleplayers and worse yet powergamers and pure PvP players. But I still played because it was still fun not from an RP perspective but from just a gaming perspective. Since I al

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