Selling Virtual Gold for Fun and Profit 74
Grimrod writes "Dave Long of GamerDad has some musings in his column this week on the virtual world of massively multiplayer online games and the legality of selling virtual goods." Mr. Long is commenting on a story posted last week at Plaguelands detailing a supposed duping bug in EQ2 that allowed a small group of players to make thousands of dollars in U.S. currency. From the GamerDad article: "For me personally, it's impossible to grasp the idea of buying virtual goods to make my in-game character better. A lot of people seem to have a lot more money than sense though and for them that's perfectly reasonable. To further cloud the issue of who really owns virtual goods, in EverQuest II a crafted weapon keeps my name on it as the creator. If I want to sell that to someone for real money, there's no better defense than to say, "I made that!" and look right there online to see my name on the item."
Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:3, Interesting)
To me it was worth purchasing so I can quickly get back in to the swing of things. Ultima, being on of the most seasoned MMORPG games out there has a unique economic system that has been battered by different events. In the early days it was tough to make a million gold pieces, now it's not so hard. With a solid character I can easily turn out 25-30k in gold by just visiting some dungeons. If I have some vendors then I can turn out an extras 25-30k just selling the loot I gathered in addition to the gold. Pretty good for about 1 hours worth of playing.
So let's say I can make 50k in one hour. I can make about 1 million in 20 hours. Mind you that is 20 hours as a solo player, not with a massive group hording some area. On ebay you can by 1 million gp for about $8.00. Hmm... $8.00 or 20 hours of my time??? To start off I will take enough gold to get me going then I will make my own money in the game. That's why I'm in the game, to play and make things.
UO suffered a gold duping bug about 3 years ago and it hurt the economy. All of a sudden everyone had lots of money too spend and gold lost its value. Very much like a real world economy. Even the gold that was sold on eBay lost its value. It use to sell for about $25 and now it is only $8.00 on average. So did duping help the sellers? Absolutely not.
So the author states he doesn't understand why people would buy something. Try this out, what is owning stock in a company? It is very intangible and gives you the right to a certain portion of an entity. There isn't a physical thing you can touch, it is very intangible. That is the same premise with an online item. It has value to someone and they would like to have it for a certain price.
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:1)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:4, Informative)
That's somewhat true in World of Warcraft too. Once they reach level 60, some people create a different player to explore how other classes are played. The most obvious way to speed up the new character is to mail tons of gold (harvested at level 60) to your low-level toon. This helps to some extent (eg. allows you to buy top-notch equipment and buy all possible skills and spells), but isn't such a strong and disruptive effect that Blizzard considered removing this mail-yourself-money feature.
Also, some data [gameusd.com] shows that inflation tends to always happen in MMORPG's, regardless of whether there's a dug bug. The papers above go a long way towards explaining the theoretical reasons for why that might be.
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:4, Interesting)
Every time a new monster spawns with treasure, there is that much more money in the economy. While there will be some downward pressure from new people joining the world, the number of people joining will always be less than the number of spawned, treasure bearing creatures. If this wasn't so you would have a very dull game. Add to this the ability of characters to sell crafted items to NPC's, which effectivly adds more money to the economy, as the NPC's purses magically refill.
The only real downward preassure you have on the currency is the need to buy stuff from the NPC's. And again, since we are making a game where people want to progress, they will necessarily be able to generate more money doing stuff than the cost in materials from the NPC's.
All in all, MMORPG economies can do nothing but inflate, without intervention. There is just too much money being added to the economy, and nothing to pull it back out.
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
No one who isn't extremely desperate buys grey "Vendor Trash" gear after about
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Lineage II has this in the form of soul shots. They have to be crafted but use ingredients only sold at vendors. They increase your attack power thus allowing people to XP faster but a portion of the loot will go towards soul shot expense.
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Chris mattern
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
pve server.. well, now, i can't think of any good reason why anyone would play it there or grind the same instances 100 times.
And THAT's the whole problem (Score:2)
The problem you illustrate there is the whole disparity in what 1 gold is worth to a level 60 and what it's worth to a level 6. To the former (even if you weren't already maxxed and basically not needing gold any more) 1 gold won't even buy you a cape for your level, to the latter i
Re:And THAT's the whole problem (Score:2)
Re:And THAT's the whole problem (Score:2)
And that wouldn't solve anything whatsoever. COH for example doesn't even have a mail service at all, and people still transfer money nevertheless.
"Being able to send alts money does cause inflation, but does not significantly alter the game."
In a lot of games, it does. E.g., COH is already being rebalanced for people who have all the best gear, and having anything less than _perfect_ equipment ("enhancements" in COH lingo) will already get you
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:5, Insightful)
I decided I wanted an Enchanted Thorium Breastplate, Helm, and Legplates. There are comparable drops (and in case of the Breastplate, arguably better ones), but the helm and legplates are tough to beat and it's difficult to turn down a guarantee rather than hoping for something to drop off a boss.
So, I made my list:
* 3 Azerothian Diamonds
* 3 Huge Emeralds
* 2 Large Opals
* 2 Blue Sapphire
* 60 Enchanted Thorium Bars
* 10 Essence of Water
* 10 Essence of Earth
* 24 Arcanite Bars
As of today, I have managed to collect everything on that list, with the exception of 13 of the Arcane Crystals, which then require transmutations by alchemists to turn them into Arcanite.
I actually *logged* how much time I spent working on this project, as well as the gold spent. So far it's taken ~95 hours of play time (dedicated solely to this task!) spread over 26 days to acquire the materials. 95 hours... and I'm not done. I still need 13 more crystals which at the current auction house rates on my server, will cost nearly 300 gold. So I either need to get really lucky when I spot a rich thorium vein, or I need to otherwise accrue 300 gold. (and then, as an aside, I want the legs and helms with health added, so I need to get the materials for the arcanum, which can be had at the auction house with good regularity for about 20-25G for each enchantment, and then 30G to pay the NPC for each enchant).
When this is all said and done, how much time will I have spent? I'm putting that figure anywhere between 120 and 150 hours, so I figure I have 2-3 weeks to go.
Now, what might this have cost me if I bought the gold and paid for the materials? I figure the bill rings in somewhere in the 1000-1200 gold range, and looking at these currency sites (MySuperSales, IGE), it would probably cost me $95-$123 to complete the project. That's a worst case of $1/hour.
Would I pay it? No. Will I pay it? No. Do I understand why some people would want to pay it? Absolutely.
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:1)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:1)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:1)
That's easy. To get to the fun part!
Fun is definitely subjective but I think we can all agree that there are aspects that are more fun than others.
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:1)
That's easy. To get to the fun part!
Firs I must say: I have never played WoW or any other MMORPG.
But I find it sad that some parts seem to be so un-fun that people pay real money in order to avoid them.
I would never pay anybody to watch a part of a movie or a TV show for me so I don't have to watch it. Because the whole movie is supposed to be fun.
I wouldn't pay anybody to play a video game for me either ("I played Resident Evil for you. Enjoy the final cut scene. That's 20 bucks.")
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:1)
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:1)
You can't compare a movie to an MMORPG. A movie is two hours. The average MMORPG player spends 20 hours a week for years at at a time.
Of course it's not the same. But if people pay other people to skip parts of it, there is something wrong.
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
Well, that's the whole problem with MMOs (Score:2)
"Games are designed to have time sinks in them and to keep you playing so you shell out that extra $15. Generally this involves a lot of boring stuff with some excitement sprinkled throughout."
First of all: No. It's only MMOs who are designed like that. Normal games are (or at least used to) be designed to be fun, not as 2 hours of actual content stretched over 10,000 hours of playing time.
I
Re:Well, that's the whole problem with MMOs (Score:1)
Overall, they like the game, a lot, but there are parts they don't like, so they skip it.
Don't get me wrong, if you're at least having fun, ok, keep paying for it. But if you'd actually pay RL money to skip 90% of the game, then I'll have to say he's right: then
Re:Paying for virtual items... my 2 cents... (Score:2)
This I can't understand.
More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:3, Insightful)
People pay others to wash their cars, mow their lawns, and do other simple work for them everyday. Why? For some it is because they are lazy, but for most it is because their time is worth more than the money paid out and that is the key to the whole argument.
On the legality side, I am beginning to think we are going to see someone eventually go to court and beat one of the game companies. Even if that doesn't happen for a long time these companies have already proven they cannot win versus the resourcefulness of the sellers using the internet. All they can do is hit the dumb ones and make a few big hits but I would susepct 99% of the trading goes unimpeded.
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:2, Insightful)
For my personal view, I believe the eventual resolution will be that paying for an account is like pa
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:2)
What doesn't make sense to some people (including myself) is that when you pay real money to buy in-game items, you are paying someone to play for you. So
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:5, Funny)
I wish I could'a paid someone to see the last Matrix for me. Then I would still have my geek creds, but would have two hours of my life back.
Your missing an important distinction (Score:2)
Now for a lot of players they don't have the time to do that, be it family or work con
Re:Your missing an important distinction (Score:2)
I played Everquest for longer than I want to think about (5 years? 6?) and I'm playing WoW now, so I know about the games. You don't have to farm. I never did. And at the point where I found EQ boring, I moved on.
Paying someone else to play the game for me still seems completely insane. If I don't want to camp something for a hundred hours to get the drop, I live without it. There's something about getting gear that I didn't earn that really bugs me, and most of the people I played with. We didn't
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:2)
You see, but it's not worth more, you pig. No man's time is worth more than that of another.
Whats the climate on your planet? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you don't think there are
Re:Whats the climate on your planet? (Score:2)
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:1, Interesting)
It cracks me up when nerds turn on each other. One guy looking down his nose at another guy for buying an imaginary sword while his own credit card is billed each month so he can fight imaginary monsters with an imaginary sword he obtained by spending three weeks...battling imaginary monsters.
(imaginary) comedy gold!
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:1)
With that said, it's pretty obvious why I don't like others "introducing" things from alternate realities (e.g. the real world). It ruins the immersion. It has little to do with jealousy for
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:2)
But there's an important difference: Those are *tedious* tasks. Online gaming is supposed to be a *fun* task.
Why play an online game at all if it's tedious ? If a task is perceived as tedious by a large portion of the players, then why put that task into the game at all ?
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:1)
Take Medievia for instance. Doing a trade run basically means running across the entire world map, on horseback, manually typing directions to follow a winding road.
To "fix" this tedium, the coders have been throwing in harder and harder mob factions that attack you on the trade routes.
Now it's like mowing your grass while under attack by archers.
Repeating myself. (Score:2)
Read any of the many message boards these games spawn? I do. One thing I note is the number of hours some people put in to obtain items or in game wealth. To me and others the idea of sitting in one spot all day long isn't playing the game or enjoying it, it is tedium. It is something that a macro would be good at. If that is your definition of enjoying a game, repeating something for a long long time, then w
Re:Repeating myself. (Score:2)
If "collecting these items" is "tedious" for "many", why then do you insist on collecting them ?
Better yet: If the stuff you currently have to do to obtain the items is "tedious", to most players, why is that in the game then, instead of something *fun* ?
If a game requires you to do a macro-like job repeatedly for a long-long time, then that's not a very good game-design, is it ?
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:2)
I read players talking of spending hundreds of hours to get to a decent enough level to play with ohter humans. When I play UT2k4, I get to a good enough inventory to join the fight in 10 seconds, tops.
I think a real future would be to make a hyper-compressed MMO - basically, an FPS where you can leve
Re:More money than sense? Sounds jealous to me. (Score:1)
I like to play games that take time to 'round' out a character, then if the game allows, I can play against other ppl in the PvP section. I also like to play solo at times I want to enjoy a game. Most RPGs are long and have tedious parts that require nothing but time. (I enjoy them to a point, there has to be a limit at some point)
The problem comes when FPS players want to PvP but don't want to put in the time to play and build up the character with
Virtual IP (Score:3, Interesting)
1) You don't hear about the ones which are caught early before anyone notices. Most companies don't exactly report every time there is a dupe bug.
2) I think most games let IGE and the like continue to operate as long as they are creating a net positive value (ie their behavior brings in more players than they chase off, and/or it costs less to let them continue than to spend man-hours tracking them down).
3) Not all MMOs are like this. For example, the MMOE Second Life [secondlife.com] explicitly grants ownership of the IP to the creator, and encourages you to sell your creations for real world profit.
Re:Virtual IP (Score:1)
Selling will become an integral part of the business plan eventually.
Sega did it right with Phantasy Star Online (Score:3, Insightful)
- it's extremely easy to amass more money than you'll ever spend.
- the really cool stuff is obtained from quests, not stores.
- item storage is limited.
- it is multiplayer, but not massive.
- players can't hurt each other.
- it is an action-RPG.
- the viewpoint is from behind the player, not above, which is better for action.
This way, veterans usually give away what they no longer need to the newbies. And everyone helps each other in what's actually fun: killing monsters! I think this is much more fun than all the Evercracks out there.
Re:Sega did it right with Phantasy Star Online (Score:2)
Which just begs the question (Score:2)
But you do illustrate a point that's starting to irk me about MMOs as a whole. And while Sega did it better than others, I would argue that they're still just doing it "less wrong":
"- it's extremely easy to amass more money than you'll ever spend."
Well, my point is: why not go the whole way, then, and elliminate money altogether?
The whole econom
The Virtual Gold song. (Score:2, Funny)
Virtual gold, virtual and gold,
Everyone wishes for virtual gold.
How do you measure its worth?
Just for the money you trade here on earth
Virtual gold, virtual gold
Means so much more when I see,
Virtual gold corporations
On every RPG.
"What's an RPG without quarrels and petty virtual gold desperation?
Can't really call it an RPG now, can you?
And think of all the fun and joy that would be lost on llamas morphing,
if all the young folks didn't get to see that sparkl
Re:The Virtual Gold song. (Score:2)
Good job. :)
Player-controlled economies (Score:3, Interesting)
When in-demand goods are controlled by the hardcore players - the people who have the most invested in the game's community, the prices can easily fluctuate based on who wants whatever item. If I am one of only 3 people on a server who can craft an item, anyone in my guild can generally get the item at cost, but people in guilds I'm not particularly fond of might have to pay a very large premium. IGE benefits the casual gamer; aside from offering gold to everyone at the same cost, they are never subject to the fluctuations of in-game politicking.
Anyone who's played an MMO knows that they are a harvesting ground for tempest-in-a-teacup drama bombs. These result in rapidly shifting allegiances, favors and favorites, and unpredictable shifts in power. If the economy were solely in the hands of these same people who can't figure out who they're inviting to their tea party from one week to the next, it would be very exclusionary to the casual gamer, who hasn't the time, desire, or immersion required to get involved or heavily invested in any specific quasi-faction.
While hardcore players like myself tend to get frustrated that these newbie players can get this stuff with nothing more than a quick jaunt over to ebay, I don't generally realize that I'm not paying money for these items I have. World of Warcraft, at least, has several items that can only be obtained through raiding; a 40-man adventure into the Molten Core, or a trip to kill Onyxia. You can't buy these items because they bind to the character that loots them.
Rich Players Are Not A New "Problem" (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Rich Players Are Not A New "Problem" (Score:1)
Let's talk economics (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's not even begin to get into how real economies work (suffice it to say that the whole thing is a big mess).
Don't MMORPG's suffer from constant inflation? There is usually a limitless supply of money and goods. Shops in these sorts of games typically have limitless supplies. Take into account supply and demand. The supply is infinite (given enough time), and the demand is finite. In theory, this drives down the value of everything in the game to nothing, even special items.
In terms of availability, there is no such thing as scarcity. Our fundamental theories of economics involve the limited supply of goods, but what happens in the face of a never-ending stream? How can economy exist! There's no intrinsically economic reason why EVERYBODY can't have the best items in the game. So why don't they?
The only constraint is time. People need to spend time to accumulate enough of this infinite stock, but it's within the grasp of everyone. Very equalizing, isn't it?
These games have a perfect socialist utopia where supply is a non-issue and prices/wages are fixed and proportional. You get out what you put into it, basically, and people are supposed to get what they deserve.
Enter the evil that is capitalism and human greed. Using real world cash, people are able to abuse the game system and give themselves an unfair advantage. These people now have access to supplies they didn't earn and don't deserve.
Make whatever argument you will about how said people function and make money in the real world, but the game world is not the real world. They don't belong together, and their economies are not supposed to be connected in any way other than the basic game fees one pays as a client.
Don't let capitalism destroy our gaming community! The games are designed by their creators to be fair and balanced. They are not supposed to be subject to class separation, which worms it's way in thanks to "real money." I say we do everything in our power to protect our idealistic little game worlds and give a decent playing experience to everyone rather than a select few who can afford it.
Re:Let's talk economics (Score:2)
Make whatever argument you will about how said people function and make money in the real world, but the game world is not the real world. They don't belong together, and their economies are not supposed to be connected in any way other than the basic game fees one pays as a cl
Re:Let's talk economics (Score:1)
Re:Let's talk economics (Score:2)
You don't play do you? (Score:2)
Rare finds are just that: rare. You might not see one for many many hours of playing. Oh sure there's tons of loot: and most of it's cash or junk. But cash doesn't kill monsters, equipment does. You can buy equipment from
i've got just one thing to say in response: (Score:2)
i mean after all, it's the cheaters that use bots to "farm" and use exploits/bugs to do other malicious things like stealing accounts, items from other users, duplicating items, etc.
ironic that developers consider that MMO games are going to save the industry, yet looking at what people have to put up with, will be its downfall.
anyway, i've got the-underdogs.org and tons of single player games i've bought in the past to keep me company well into the future.
People that complain about real cash sales... (Score:1)
Re:People that complain about real cash sales... (Score:2)
The people that work for places like IGE and such, many of them Chinese workers who just watch macro-controlled characters getting paid a pittance for their time, are the problem.
They farm all the good items in the game, especially patterns/recipies/etc. needed to learn professions, and then sell what they can in the games for outrageous prices.
You can see stuff going f
Understanding the Full Story (Score:1)
False (Score:2)
Compare it to golf (Score:3, Insightful)
For example, $50 for some new toys is nothing compared to the money people can spend on golf. If you're an avid golfer, you could buy spend nearly $300 on a putter [golfsmith.com] to shave a few strokes off you game while on the green. Want to get to the green in fewer strokes? How about a new driver for nearly $400 [golfsmith.com]? Sure you could practice a little more, but most golfers are lucky to get in one game a week unless they're retirees. So instead, you spend a little extra money to have a better experience in the game.
Poor argument (Score:2)
This really isn't a convincing argument if you think about it beyond a superficial level.
First, if Jim Smith, the player, logs in with the character Lewtzmaker and creates a pair of Galoshes of Sloshing, the galoshes will say they were made by Lewtzmaker, not Jim Smith. Mr. Smith may argue that L
Introduction (Score:1)