Free60 Project Aims for Linux on Xbox 360

BlueMoon writes "The Free60 Project wiki and developers mailinglist has been launched. The project aims to port open source operating systems like GNU/Linux and Darwin to the Microsoft Xbox 360 gaming console. The site already contains some interesting details about the Xbox 360 security: per-box key stored on CPU, boot ROM will be on CPU too and a hypervisor verifies the running state of the kernel."

*click*

[NightDragon]

*Starts the "Time-to-360-hacked" Stopwatch....*

Re:Nice try

[ultranova]

The OP made a claim, without posting a shred of evidence, and I asked him/her to back it up. I'm genuinely interested to hear where he (or anyone else) thinks flaws might be in the 360's security model.

There is no absolutely unhackable security model. Even if there is absolutely no bugs in XBOXs software (which I find highly unlikely - this is Microsoft we're talking here), you can always modify the hardware until the code you want to pass passes. Simply replace every single part if nothing else helps.

The real questions are: is there a hack that requires so little effort from the part of the user that it is worth the trouble, and if so, how long until it is discovered ?

Security isn't about perfection

[cgenman]

Parent poster implies a very important point. No security model needs to be perfect. It just needs to be good enough that it isn't worth screwing up whatever the security model is there to protect.

If it takes 50 solder points and a week of effort, 99.9% of your users won't modify their consoles and your software sales won't be negatively impacted. If it takes a complete code re-write then finding a hash collision to get a modified console online, nobody will do it. Heck, Nintendo found that adding 2 little plastic tabs to the SNES was sufficient to greatly reduce the scope of the import market.

Security is about dissuading people from doing things, not preventing them.

Re:Security isn't about perfection

[interiot]

Security is about dissuading people from doing things, not preventing them. That's true to some extent. Theoretically, many government sites are vulnerable to nuclear attack. However, the difficulty (politically and physically) of constructing one, and the likelyhood of counterattacks, mean that it's exceedingly unlikely to happen, despite the technical possibility. If it takes 50 solder points and a week of effort, 99.9% of your users won't modify their consoles and your software sales won't be negatively impacted.

If it takes 50 solder points, somebody in China will figure out a way to make the work go quickly, and people will import them from Lik-sang. And we're nowhere near the 50-solder-point mark yet. And granted, if it got to the point where modifying it took more than $50-100 of work, people would just buy the nearest-priced open media portal device instead.

Ultimately, technical security is completely different from physical security. Developers can do things in their home that's not detectable anywhere, and once things are broken once, they can easily be broken everywhere.

Re:Nice try

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have to mod the processor itself to get it done, it's unhackable. This is what the TCPA/Palladium/NGSCB/whatever effort is trying to get to eventually as well. Not everyone has the ability to manufacture fresh CPUs, especially of a specific design, and the silicon can't be changed afterwards.

Re:Nice try

[alerante]

Simply replace every single part if nothing else helps.

After that, rename your Xbox to "Ship of Theseus [wikipedia.org]".

Re:Nice try

[croddy]

The real questions are: is there a hack that requires so little effort from the part of the user that it is worth the trouble, and if so, how long until it is discovered ?

After some analysis, I've already discovered what appears to be a critical vulnerability already in the 360's chain of trust.

The approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this trench and skim the surface to this point. The target area is only two meters wide. It's a small thermal exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station.

Re:Nice try

[Eccles]

Many Bothans died to bring you this information.

Re:Nice try

[Jozer99]

I did it! I found all the security stuff difficult, so I replaced the hardware with my Pentium D desktop. Now, the XBox 360 will boot Suse, BSD, Windows XP, and even BeOS with little or no configuration. Then I decided that hacking the Xbox 360 alone was too easy, so I decided to write an XBox 360 emulator for my new hacked XBox 360. This was easily accomplished by subsituting the original scrapped hardware for the new hacked version. Spread the news.

Re:Nice try

[AngryUndead]

Softmodding involves a buffer overflow exploit using modified savegames for certain games, and involves no hardware modification.

Re:Nice try

[ArbitraryConstant]

As long as these things play games online the possibility exists of a buffer overflow there as well.

I know games programmers, and while many are competent, they rarely care/have time to audit their code for security bugs.

Er... say wha?

[brunes69]

Once you get into hardware probably very few people will attempt it. Too risky.

I don't know what circles you travel in, but I don't know *anyone* who owns an Xbox that is not modded, and that is out of about 20 to 30 Xbox owners.

The benefits of modding (namely, XBMC and the ability to play backups) are just too great to *not* do it.

It will be the same for the 360 - a hardware mod chip will be out in a matter of weeks, and everyone and their dog will have one.

Re:Nice try

[rpresser]

To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification.

Please improve your pitiful knowledge.
http://www.xbox-linux.org/>

Softmodding (modding with no hardware modification) is possible based on a few different methods. There are at least three games for which a savegame buffer overflow exploit is known. You can download a malicious savegame, load it from within the game, and linux boots. From there you can ftp anything you like to your hard drive. (This is the method I chose.) No hardware modification is required. Getting the savegame available to the XBOX can bit tricky. You can either buy an xbox memory card with one installed, or use a standard USB memory drive connected to the controller port -- the controller ports are standard USB with a different connector, but commercial USB adapters are available from real companies (i.e., companies with interests other than assisting you in softmodding).

Among the popular "permanent" softmods you can install onto the harddrive are font mods (buffer overflow in the font file that loads with the splash screen) and sound mods (buffer overflow in the sound processing code, for playing ripped tracks - the original MS software includes a CD ripper for inserting your own soundtracks into games that support it). (I chose the font mod).

Now that you have a mod on your hard drive, you can run unsigned code, including linux itself, alternate dashboards, or (my favorites) Xbox Media Center (not to be confused with the Media Center package Microsoft sells for Xbox) or Xbox-MAME.

A totally different way to go involves opening the XBOX, connecting its hard drive to a PC, loading linux on it, and putting it back in the XBOX. That could be considered "hardware modification" but it requires nothing more than guts and a few screwdrivers.

Re:Nice try

[Rew190]

To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification.

Done and done. [cdfreaks.com]

It involves getting in through a savegame. I had this done to my XBox; it has something to do with FTPing in and replacing boot files.

Hopefully the new system gets cracked quickly; an XBox with XBox Media Center is very useful!

Re:Nice try

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

To the best of my knowledge there is still no crack for the Xbox that doesn't involve hardware modification.

There's a simple, Free exploit that uses a buffer overflow in MechAssault to run unsigned code under the security restrictions of the game itself; one of the things it can do is write files to disk. Appropriate files can replace or modify the Dashboard, allowing unsigned code to run with no restrictions and act as an operating system. Such code exists Freely for older Xboxen; for newer ones, there is

os x?

[jest3r]

Being a triple core 3.2GHz PowerPC it would be cool to get OS X running on the XBOX 360.

Re:os x?

[cbreaker]

The Xbox 360 CPU cores are very simple and a full G5 processor should be able to outperform the Xbox in any real world applications.

Re:os x?

[cbreaker]

Indeed - by the time the original Xbox was functional enough to be a general-purpose machine running linux (real video support (still no 3D), sound, etc) it was a fraction of the power compared to what could be done with a $300 off the shelf PC.

Besides, at this point all we could hope for is to be able to unlock the region code bullshit and to allow copied DVD's to run. I think this in itself will be a very daunting task - although invariably there's always some weakness in the system somewhere that allows

My Thoughts Exactly

[slashbob22]

This goes extremely well with my solution to the overheating problem:

I suggest that correct this problem that you transform your "XBox" into the form it should have originally been in:

1) Buy MicroATX case (with powersupply)
2) Rip apart XBox
3) Rebuild your computer. err XBox.
Done Right? [slashdot.org]

and I suppose:
4) Install Linux and stop buying those ridiculously priced games.

Re:My Thoughts Exactly

[Miros]

So, buy an extremely expensive piece of propreitary hardware, an extra pc case, a bunch of modding tools, spend hours of your time moving the pieces from one to the other and getting the OS tweaked just right... to not waste money on overpriced games.... dude, just go out and buy a computer, seriously.

Because it's there

[CustomDesigned]

Why are you climbing this mountain?

An Indian Psycologist (whose name went something like Sikh Sent Mahalia - but I'm sure I totally mangled it, and can't lay my hands on the book) identified the necessary components of "flow" as skills, rules, goals, and feedback. For any activity, whether work or play, if you lack the skill, or if the activity is too easy or too hard, you are frustrated and unhappy. If you can't discern the rules (or meta rules), you are frustrated and unhappy. If there is no goal, you are frustrated and unhappy. If there is no feedback on your progress, you are frustrated and unhappy.

Sports like football have all the components (for those with the skill), and there is "flow". Putting linux on machines designed to prevent that very thing is like a game of football for geeks. It requires skill (is not too easy), but has been and probably can be done (is not too hard). The rules are those of logic and electronics. The goal is clear, and there is feedback along the way as you (carefully arrange to) see evidence of the system running your code further and further along in the boot process.

It can get frustrating if there is a lack of feedback - you can't find a visible bit to twiddle to show the code has gotten to a specific point.

holy mangled facts, batman

[Oopsz]

He's a motivational psychologist studying performance and reward, his name is Csikszentmihalyi, and he's Hungarian, not Indian.

Re:holy mangled facts, batman

[CustomDesigned]

Thanks. No wonder I couldn't google it either :-)

Re:holy mangled facts, batman

[Scherf]

[...]Csikszentmihalyi, and he's Hungarian[...]

Seriously, I was this close to mod you funny... ;-)

Re:Because it's there

[keyshawn632]

You're probably referring to Mihaly Csikszentmihaly [wikipedia.org] [wikipedia article].

How he defines flow: being completely involved in an activity for its own sake. The ego falls away. Time flies. Every action, movement, and thought follows inevitably from the previous one, like playing jazz. Your whole being is involved, and you're using your skills to the utmost.

The quinessential example that would accurately describe "flow" for the slashdot crowd would be the lost sense of time, sort of euphoric feeling that

Re:My Thoughts Exactly

[Anonymous Coward]

4) Install Linux and stop buying those ridiculously priced games...

...so you can play Tux Racer. Oh Oh Oh, what about bzFlag? Linux can play games, honest!

Re:My Thoughts Exactly

[djdavetrouble]

bzflag happens to be my favorite game, you insensitive clod !
yes, I love nethack too.

Re:Other than M-rated first person shooters?

[Yartrebo]

Freeciv is available. Similar to Civ II/Civ III. Much better multiplayer since it is better balanced. Graphics aren't as good, but who needs graphics for a strategy game?

And there's always WINE (or one of the commercial mods of it, like Cedega). Most games (about 2/3rds of the ones I've tried) run on it just fine, though a lot of 'educational' titles run very poorly because of shoddy programming (not that they run too great on native windows either). Heck, with the Caillou games, there's plenty of older kid

Re:My Thoughts Exactly

[nomadic]

4) Install Linux and stop buying those ridiculously priced games.

Yep, who needs good games anyway? Much more fun to play a poorly done version of some 10 year old PC game.

Re:My Thoughts Exactly

[Khuffie]

Umm...the PS2 was sold at a loss, as was the PSP, so will the PS3. The only company that doesn't sell at a loss is Nintendo.

Re:My Thoughts Exactly

[Microlith]

To a point. The PS2 has been earning profits on the hardware for a couple years now.

The PSP... who knows. The PS3 will be sold at a loss for some time, but will likely start turning a profit after a while.

The XBOX is the only console to lose money over its entire lifespan. It remains to be seen if MSFT can contract the cost of manufacturing enough to bring unit production cost under sale cost and turn a profit on the XBOX360. Since they own the rights to everything in the system, it's entirely possible.

Re:My Thoughts Exactly

[Kadin2048]

Yeah if there actually turned out to be even some semblance of support for it as an architecture, I'd probably pick one up just to play around with. I don't really have any desire to buy any games for it, but if I could get a development/hobby platform for under $400 (okay, add a case that doesn't suck) while at the same time sticking Microsoft for $125, I'm all over it.

What would be cool is if somebody would port the BOINC distributed computing client, and put together a bootable CD for xBox. If you know you're not going to be using your console for a while, just put the CD in and reboot it, and it crunches numbers until you're ready to play again. If you think of the numbers of game consoles that are sold, and the number of hours that they're probably used per day (after the initial fascination wears off), that's a lot of idle CPU time. Now that consoles are getting comparable to computers in power, and have network connections and attached disk storage, I don't think it's that ridiculous an idea.

They should probably wait...

[Hymer]

...until that overheating problem is solved...

At least

[paranode]

Before they try porting Gentoo to it.

Re:At least

[smittyoneeach]

Well, they already ported Gentoo's creator to MicroSoft, so the distro itself should logically follow.

Not too quick!

[Anonymous Coward]

If they're too quick at crackin the new box, microsoft will patch the other xboxes they'll be making. I'd imagine that's one of the reasons they released so few at this time. The other major one being that they didn't wanna get slapped with too many lawsuits concerning house fires.

Hypervisor

[jurt1235]

Assuming that the hypervisor technology in the xbox360 is really the IBM hypervisor, than the linux community could have access to the patents involved in this technology, making it a lot easier (as in really tough job to in just a bit less realy tough job) to get linux running on the xbox. Maybe it is possible to run it in a VM under xbox windows (I guess internally in microsoft this might be called xwindows).

Re:Hypervisor

[Kadin2048]

I just read through the site and I don't think there's any evidence to show that the hypervisor that it's being speculated is used by the x360 is the same one that's been developed by IBM. The IBM one I believe is designed for large scale use on big iron, providing abstraction and security services to virtual machines; the xBox one is just to monitor the kernel for modifications and checksum the RAM against stored values in the processor. They seem so different in scope that I'm not sure it's a good assumption to think that they're the same thing, or that the MS one isn't just something they cooked up in-house. There doesn't seem to be any strong evidence that they're the same, and the Slashdot article link just seems to be something the author pulled out of Google.

Also, if you read on the Free60 documentation site, it's apparent that the factoids being discussed, including the only mention of the hypervisor, are being attributed to "someone on the IRC" -- not exactly a reputable source.

are there any non-gaming applications to this

[caffeinemessiah]

...because a lot of good came out of the original Xbox being hacked. I'm sure there are a lot of high-perf researchers on a shoestring who are eyeing the price on the basic Xbox 360. Even without a hard disk, a small memory card should be enough to house a basic computation/communications infrastructure, and with the retail price on the basic 360, you should be able to string a bunch of them together to get decent computing power at a price even lower than a low-end Beowulf. I understand that the obvious application of hacking the 360 is so that you can play pirated games, but I for one am eagerly waiting to see what comes out of this project, and the PS3-hack that is soon to be.

Re:are there any non-gaming applications to this

[interiot]

Simply adding support for extra codecs, and better/configurable upscaling of DVD or 720p content would be a wonderful place to start. Though the PS3 supposedly has more horsepower and 1080p output, so it may be preferable for use as a software scaler.

Re:are there any non-gaming applications to this

[An Onerous Coward]

From what I've been able to find, the XBox360 CPU is a modified PPC chip. But I would assume that a lot of its performance comes from specialized graphics chipsets (like any good gaming rig). While it's possible to do general purpose computations on graphics cards, I don't think it's trivial.

So for high performance computing, I don't see how networking a bunch of XBoxen together is going to deliver anything that couldn't be achieved by networking a bunch of beige boxes. With a custom-built solution, you

Source

[morcheeba]

Interesting source of the information: I met someone on the IRC the other day who told me the following...

The biggest thing I wonder about in "The key is stored inside the CPU". This adds cost, but it is possible [intel.com]. It means that to execute your own code, the serial number must be determined so that a replacement flash chip can be properly encrypted. I'm betting it's pretty hard to find this number out without taking apart the processor.

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

It could add cost, but perhaps not.

IIRC, there's an extention to the JTAG specification for in-system programming of devices, such as programmable logic or flash memory.

I don't think it would be too cheap to store the unique per-console key in a few bits of flash memory in the chip die. Then all CPUs would be identical, and during the normal testing phase they could program the flash. And God knows we have flash memory technology issues down these days.

There's other ways too; fuseable links to make it perma

Re:Source

[bbrack]

Electrically programmable fuses make this very simple - when the part is tested at wafer/multiprobe, you simply blow in the ID when you are blowing in all your repair solutions - I can guarantee IBM is blowing an ID into the parts anyway for general yield/return tracking purposes.

This ID can probably be accessed through the JTAG port, or accessed internally - the data is going to be in a certain format (Lot #, wafer #, x coord, y coord, or something similar) that would be easy to verify...

You could also make it so reading the id from one place and writing it to another was part of the reset sequence on the chip...

WRT getting the serialid out of the processor, you should be able to read it out through a simple JTAG instruction

Re:Source

[Helvick]

You're missing the point here - this is supposedly a Trusted Computing architecture. The locks on this are not something as trivial as a serial number that is hard to track down. The core has a cryptographic component that provides for hardware based key management and secure crypto functions. That module will never export its unique private key(s) because the hardware design doesn't provide any instructions that allow that to happen. Good luck attacking it that way, it might be possible if they stuffed up the design but I doubt it.
Furthermore if it follows the MS TC model then the CPU's crypto store will also have MS X-Box boot and app signing Root certs. All code, especially the boot process will have to be signed by something that will pass a check against those Root Certs. At a guess I'd say they have more than one of each type and they can be revoked via firmware (ie over XBox live, or via code distributed in games) just in case their primary leaks. Finding buffer overflows or figuring out how to code the instructions for an alternative boot firmware wont help unless you can figure out how to sign the code you feed into CPU. If the hardware design is properly secure then that will require breaking a strong crypto system equivalent to that used in X.509 certs in order to compromise those MS owned signing keys. This is a much much harder problem than compromising the original X-Box (which only used software based crypto so it could be subverted by replacing the boot code) or the PSP (which seems to rely on no secure execution model at all). MS certainly know how this should be done, the question is did they actually try to do it and if so did they succeed. That is the main reason I'm interested in this X-Box 360 hacking attempt, it's success will show how serious MS actually are about extreme DRM.
My guess on that is that the answer is very interested indeed, if they can successfully implement a popular consumer device with a hard TC architecture then there are a lot of people out there who will want them to share it with them - the Cellular Telco's in particular love this stuff and will happily get into bed with MS if they can sell them a proven TC architecture that is resistant to attack.

First step!

[Libor Vanek]

I already know 1st step "HowTo run Linux on your XBox 360" - it's:

1, Attach your XBox on a string so it can be c00l enough ;-)

Well, in regards to piracy...

[Sigmund Dali]

I've long thought that the only reason MS decided to go with the smaller laptop drives is their drastically reduced capacity. Does the lure of piracy decrease with the size of the Hard Drive? I'll admit that on my modded XBox, I prefer to rip all of my *legit* games to the HD, just for easy access. Anybody else think the same way?

Re:Well, in regards to piracy...

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone actually tried connecting a standard SATA drive to the 360.. it connects just fine, but the xbox doesn't recognize it without the right data on the disk. It's only time before someone finds out what the xbox looks for, makes a tool to convert your sata disk, and then have 350GB of hard drive space to play with :)

Re:Well, in regards to piracy...

[Turmio]

The Xbox360 HD is basically a standard SATA laptop HD covered with a fancy casing. If a modchip for the system is eventually developed, I'm pretty damn sure that compared to that feat, it's a piece of cake to build an adapter that lets you use any hard disk with a SATA connector with Xbox360. Sure you can't fit a 500GB 3.5" drive inside the case but who cares if it must sit next to the case if it works?

heat, power, shock, size, noise

[SuperBanana]

I've long thought that the only reason MS decided to go with the smaller laptop drives is their drastically reduced capacity.

That doesn't really make any sense. More likely: heat, power consumption, shock resistance, noise, and physical size. Especially heat/power/size, which are critical for a "console" game; just look at the problems with the overheating power adapters...

Good idea

[GroeFaZ]

because game consoles, too, want to be free.

Obligatory PA

[Sumocide]

Enjoy

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2003/06/30 [penny-arcade.com]

Sounds like a good warm up

[koan]

To cracking the Trusted Computing hardware.

Question

[GroeFaZ]

As other posters have noted, game consoles share the distinctive trait of standardized, special-purpose hardware, on which a general-purpose Linux OS is installed. But even the best game consoles make for pretty poor PCs if you just look at the specs, so it seems to me that this is more of a proof-of-concept and the sheer devilish joy of seeing Tux on an Xbox.

But is it not possible to modify a distro for specifically that set of hardware that comes with, say, the Xbox 360? Would the gain in performance not be equal to that of games software written for that set of hardware?

Re:Question

[Slashcrap]

But even the best game consoles make for pretty poor PCs if you just look at the specs, so it seems to me that this is more of a proof-of-concept and the sheer devilish joy of seeing Tux on an Xbox.

3 x 3.2Ghz Power PC CPUs, 512MB memory, high-end GPU, 20GB HDD & wireless.

I see what you mean. It's hardly worth bothering with really is it?

This is not the slashdot I once knew

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello fellow slashdotters, I've been reading slashdot for several years but this is ourageous.
As the Executive Sales Manager for Microsoft XBox 360 I don't see this as news but a direct
illegal action against the Microsoft corporation. Hacking the XBox hardware which the machine was
not originally intended for will be further looked into by the FBI and CIA as it is considered a
hostile Terrorist action against the United States of America's privatly owned enterprises. We
have the governments full support to fight this Communist plague and any attempt to interfere or
hinder this investigation will result in an immediate hostile response.

this is good for microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

microsoft don't care if you run linux on the xbox. they wont loose that much money. (i know that currently they loose a bit on each xbox they sell, but the more they sell, the more they can push manufacturing costs down).

when 360.0 is cracked, they'll learn how it was done, and make 360.1 more secure. same when people crack 360.1 etc. all the xbox linux code will be open source so they can have a good look at the methods used.

this is all good practice for them so that oneday they'll be able to make a computer that will only run windows and signed code. then they'll claim that anyone not using their secure platform must be a hacker or software/music pirate. then they lobby the .gov. then they have no competitors.

But they do care if..

[nurb432]

You run linux and not buy any games..

Remember they are gambling on game sales to make a profit on these things.

Re:But they do care if..

[EvanED]

if they sell millions of xboxs then the prices of components will fall.

But so will the price of the Xbox. Especially in probably about 3-4 months when the PS3 is released.

Re:this is good for microsoft, so what?

[Antique Geekmeister]

That's at the core of "Trusted Computing". It can, and will, control access to hardware as well as to the most basic operating system functions such as using a boot loader or kernel. Microsoft plans to provide and manage the keys for almost everything, much the way Verisign manages most SSL keys today either directly or through authorized proxies.

TCPA

[marcosdumay]

This is (as far as I know) the very first Trusted Computing platform that we can put our hands on. Very, very interesting. And it is well done (no obvious flaws).

If somebody can break that, we may be safe! That or they may build a more secure one, but we'll be safe for more time anyway.

FAQ

[Paradise Pete]

Pretty good FAQ [free60.org] on that site:

Q: Have you guys modded the Xbox360 yet?
A: No, not yet.

Don't shut it down

[Midnight Warrior]

Everyone expects that Microsoft would want to shut such a site down. Believe it or not, if the Trusted Computing Machine paradigm is to really take hold, Microsoft is going to have to wait it out. Lots of companies have worked on other tamper-proof technology. If this platform can withstand a very large portion of that attack, then they will have a reputation to be proud of - from a security perspective.

Bruce Schneier [schneier.com] reminds us of several attributes in his book Secrets and Lies.

• Tamper proof hardware through zeroization techniques (no evidence thus far), but may involve destruction when a critical chip is removed.
• Revocation of privilege to participate. If the hypervisor detects trouble, it fails to a safe position.
• "Only the key is secret" (and only for so long). Call this a free update CD every XBox360 owner must run after two years from launch - this is a valid application with new Microsoft keys.
• Compromise in one section does not compromise the whole unit (defense in depth)
• Assume something like the James Bond 007 game save buffer overflow will happen again, and the damage should require everyone to purchase this game to continue running non-standard code - during which time the bug will be patched in the new distribution discs.
• Fiercly litigate anyone that builds disc reading/writing technology for the XBox 360, specifically targetting hardware vendors.
• Develop a method by which an honest enthusiast can work in a sandbox that does anything. They'll never be entirely happy, but it will keep all but the most zealous enthusiasts at bay. Make this disk cost, oh, say $150 to cover the lost profit, or $40 per year per console. Call this a bizaare toy for the sophisticated adult, and the cost should make it a disincentive to commercial distribution of competitive products.

For the record, I have no interest in playing on a 360, much less compromizing one, but if Microsoft can apply the above principles, then they will have a reputation and platform other non-gaming industries can embrace. Even Sony couldn't buy that with money. I do, however, have my doubts that Microsoft has focused on security robustness because their first and formost motto should be "It's all about the gaming experience." Fail that and the thing dies anyway.

The name

[FLAGGR]

Free60? That's pretty cool. What are the other consoles going to get for a name? "Open Source Revolution", uh.. "PS3 Linux"?

Let's get hacking.

[Aqws]

I don't see why there isn't a lot more enthusiasm behind this project, only 100 posts so far, and hald of them saying why hacking the X-box 360 isn't that important. I thought this site is for nerds, the type of people who would love to get there hands dirty with this type of stuff. How can there be so much exitment about the x-boxs release, not as much exitment about greatly expanding what you can do with your X-box. First off, this allows gamers a much, much larger variety of games... I might end up playing Frespace to this thing. Anything you would be able to do with a PC you could do with an X-box 360 if linux is ported to it. I intend for my next PC to be an X-box 360, microsoft gets the hardware at a reduced cost, and that reduced cost is not only carried over onto you, but is improved upon, microsoft loses $130 for each xbox sold. This is no minimalistic PC, it's much better than my current one. When the security is cracked for linux, it won't be long until mac os X or any of the BSDs are ported to. Plus, it only runs $300 for a base unit. Alright anough dealing with these non-nerds, why aren't you linux experts hacking away at this thing? Think of the boon in linux developers when all these computer users get a taste of linux, because it will so vastly improves there console. Whos' going to care about the X-box when the PS3 comes? The faster it is ported, the more people who will be exposed to Linux, and end up developing it and making it better. Plus, the sooner I get my PC. How can you turn down this challenge? I wish they would have another one of those contests, were that guy got $100,000 for getting linux on the first x-box without a hardware change.

Speaking of crashes...

[kyashan]

Those that have a system with the HD and intend to keep it standing vertically, may want to think twice about that.
It was very easy for me to kill a devkit as it fell laterally while the console was on.
I can't imagine the retail system being less sensitive to that, as it's only normal for an HD to get damaged that way.
The problem is that the thing is meant to stand up, but it's light and it doesn't have a wide base.

Watch out.

It's just a ploy from MS to make Linux crash...

[marcushnk]

You see.. they're taking a $129 loss on every x360 sold.. the reason is that they KNOW we're going to put Linux on it.. and the moment we do you KNOW some well meaning twit will port Gentoo to it.
Now if these buggers over heat and die regularly what do you think GENTOO is going to do to it with all that compiling?!?!

It's going to set fire to houses and KILL PEOPLE!!
Then MS can sit back and let the marketing dogs of war loose, and Linux will be branded as the child killing OS for ever and a day.

so.. which of you genius Judas will be nailing Tux to a dead tree first??

Some team at M$ is watching

[bhav2007]

I bet there is some group within M$ whose job has been specifically to prevent Linux from running on the xbox 360. They better cross their fingers

This must be a great story

[richdun]

No new Slashdot main stories for 9 hours and counting...

must.. have.. slashdot.. story..

[merc]

going through slashdot withdrawl symptoms...!!!

faaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!

Re:Why would you need it on a three 3.2 GHz proces

[amliebsch]

They want to run KDE.

Re:Why would you need it on a three 3.2 GHz proces

[paranode]

And they want to open something in OpenOffice.

Re:Why would you need it on a three 3.2 GHz proces

[ThaFooz]

I know that was a joke, but the appeal of getting linux on the Xbox for me is to be able to run MythFrontend for all my video needs... which requires QT and tends to be a little clunky on ancient machines. Not that you need 3.2 ghz processors, but hey, the XBox is cheaper than a new machine.

Re:Yay

[porneL]

It just gives that fuzzy feeling that Microsoft has paid $126 for your Linux box.

Re:Yay

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

But how long does that fuzzy feeling last when your system crashes because the power-supply overheated?

Then it becomes a warm fuzzy feeling.

Re:Yay

[sgant]

Renderfarm maybe?

If only we could port Vray, Mental Ray and PRman to it.

Cheap renderfarm networked together. Need lots of cooling though from what I understand about the 360

Re:Yay

[akeyes]

Why would you need it on a three 3.2 GHz processors.

You must be new here...

Re:Easier option...

[mordors9]

Because the most important question of all must once again be answered, "yeah, but does it run linux?"

Odd Timing

[nurb432]

Just as apple drops the PPC, Microsoft starts using it?

Re:Odd Timing

[ergo98]

Just as apple drops the PPC, Microsoft starts using it?

Mobile computing is critical to Apple's strategy (indeed - mobile PCs are going to seriously erode the desktop market), where the PowerPC had few viable options. Mobile computing doesn't really matter much to the gaming console market.

Re:Odd Timing

[Magic5Ball]

Mobile computing doesn't really matter much to the gaming console market.

Sure it does. GameBoy* and PSP* are profitable, and will continue to be profitable as they gain enough processing power to run re-releases of current console games in the next five years or so. A self-powered X-Box that fits into a discman-size form factor would be a killer app, and is close to being achievable today.

Re:Odd Timing

[LearnToSpell]

A self-powered X-Box that fits into a discman-size form factor would be a killer app, and is close to being achievable today.

Yeah, but the power supply is the size of a mini-fridge.

Re:Easier option...

[KDR_11k]

Because the XBox 360 could run a virtual Mac Mini and still have enough CPU left to play Quake 3?

Re:About that Mac Mini

[Andy Dodd]

Yeah, for general purpose code, the cores aren't too hot.

For signal processing applications, and stuff that's compiled with an intelligent compiler, the cores are pretty powerful. For desktop apps the CPUs will suck, but for 3D rendering and video encoding/decoding (oh yeah, audio processing too), the 360s triple-core CPU is going to be pretty amazing, especially for things that can be split into multiple threads easily.

The 360 will definately eat the Mac Mini for lunch in numerous applications, and is pro

Re:About that Mac Mini

[ozmanjusri]

For desktop apps the CPUs will suck, but for 3D rendering and video encoding/decoding (oh yeah, audio processing too), the 360s triple-core CPU is going to be pretty amazing

That's a pretty good incentive to get Linux running on them. Having a handful of them as rendernodes would be a great application, and would be great to have Microsoft sponsoring the independant Australian film industry to the tune of $US170.00 per node...

Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms

[garcia]

Well, if the device actually works (and the apparent overheating issues worked out) you will end up with a low cost, low profile machine with TV-out that can be used as a media center box while (in a perfect world) being able to still playing XBox games online.

One box to do it all. You get a lot by being able to run your own OS on the box. Don't troll with unintelligent comments, it's not worth it.

Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms

[Anonymous Coward]

You missed the whole point of being a geek. Sorry, slashdot is not for you, don't come back.

Geeks don't need a "why."

[MP3Chuck]

I mean seriously ... why not put Linux on the XBox? If there are some hackers out there that get their rocks off porting Linux to everything from new architectures to dead badgers [strangehorizons.com], then more power to them if they want to tackle the X360, too. And IMO it'd be pretty damn cool to have 1) the power and 2) the form-factor in a general-purpose box.

Re:Geeks don't need a "why."

[TubeSteak]

Of course, I think we can all ignore the fact that Linux is one of the few redeeming qualities of Bittorrent, which is otherwise almost totally pirated material.

So what I'm trying to say is that somebody needs to stand up an say that Linux could just be an excuse for hardware hackers looking to crack the Xbox and play gamerips.

I've got Karma to burn & nobody has brought it up yet.

Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

special-purpose hardware

To quote A Canticle for Leibowitz, "How did that heresy get into the world after all these years?" Anything with a standard CPU inside it is general purpose. The Xbox 360 is a Turing machine...with great graphics and an overheating problem, but that doesn't affect its Turing-completeness. Your Linksys router, your graphing calculator, probably your digital clock, are all general-purpose too, if you can find how to reprogram them. This world has very few special-purpose devices left in it. The point of things being Turing-complete is so that they're not special-purpose.

Remember that anything with a microcontroller can have that chip reprogrammed. The only special-purpose chips left are probably in heavily-embedded systems like the chip inside your optical mouse or something. For most applications it's cheaper to program a general-purpose microchip in software, instead of making your own logic circuits.

Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms

[Ashtead]

In theory, anything with a microcontroller could be reprogrammed. In practice there tends to be a number of obstacles put in the way of performing re-programming, in these cases where re-programming never is expected to be needed, or when re-programming is not desired for whatever reason. Mouse and garage-door opener controllers are typical examples of mask-programmed controllers, where there is a large volume and a simple function that never needs to be changed in the field; if there are changes these are

Re:Consoles are not general computing platforms

[xs650]

There are many reasons, one of which is "because it's there".

Re:Erm why?

[oneiron]

I think it's a worthy cause to have an open source operating system working on every piece of equipment that is capable of it. Plenty of reasons it might come in handy some day (post-apocolyptic being the most entertaining one to think about)... Of course, the 360 also happens to have a fair amount of horsepower for the price (for now)...

Ooo! Ooo! And a cure for cancer too!

[Valdrax]

It would be pretty cool if Linux worked on a 360 but please remind me again why people are trying to make it so? Aren't there enough projects crying out for some decent developer input already? Maybe I am just getting old and grumpy but this seems like a terrible waste of time that could be used to great benefit.

I consider this the logical equivalent of the question, "Couldn't they be working on a cure for cancer instead?" I cannot abide this sort of arrogant stupidity.

1) All programmers/scientists/etc. are not equivalent. Life is not some computer strategy game. You can't just wave your mouse around, pull a person off one project, put them on another, and expect the same level of productivity. Maybe the Xbox 360 project will attract people with good hardware hacking skills that aren't really applicable on anything you care about.

2) What interests you may or may not interest people of technical aptitude. Sure, a cure for cancer would be really great, but not everyone is interested in whatever field of research will finally result in it. Some people might be more interested in entomology than oncology, and some people might be more interested in getting a cheap, powerful Linux home entertainment computer than whatever makes you happy. Your desires are not everyone else's desires.

3) What doesn't interest you isn't necessarily useless. An Xbox is a very powerful multi-processor system perfect for hooking up to a home entertainment system and well suited for light distributed processing tasks. It's also fantastically cheap for what it's capable of. There are numerous potential uses for it.

4) Not everything has to be useful to be worth doing. Surprise, surprise -- the people working on this might be doing it for fun! Even if it didn't have a lot of utility, that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing if it brings someone enjoyment to do it.

In short, stuff it. You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from pursuing interests that you don't share.

</frothing at the mouth>

Nitpick

[Quiet_Desperation]

You're not the dictator of the world, so quit discouraging people from pursuing interests that you don't share.

Well, a theoretical dictator of the world not have to "discourage" people. He'd just send in the shock troops and put an end to whatever the rablle was doing. :)

And the OP's attitude wasn't *that* horrible. Things should have their value questioned at all times. The lack of questioning things leads to most of the messes we have in the world today. Watch a politician give an interview thse days. I don't think "follow up question" is even in the cirriculum of journalism schools these days.

And, yes, "doing it for fun" is a perfectly valid answer, but there's no need to Bakersfield chimp on the OP. ;-)

Re:How To

[Eideewt]

I believe that's:
1. Get modified Xbox with Linux installed
2. Suspend on a piece of string
3. Spin 360 degrees on piece of string
4. ???
5. Profit!

Re:Why?

[anagama]

Maybe a usable Linux desktop? A hacked XBOX - yeah that ought to have about 100 users.

Completely wrong. Hacking the 360 is important ... vital. If it isn't done, then when streaming video or the like starts to take off, content providers will require you to have MS hardware and your only option will be to accept that or give up. Hacking the 360 ensures choice in the marketplace in the future. Here's a quote from an article I ended up at by following some links during my RTFA session:

Why does it matter? Bear in mind, Microsoft has big plans for the home -- plans that include media center PCs, family entertainment centers, TV set-top boxes, portable media players, mobile phones, and, of course, gaming devices. Considering that the Xbox 360 represents a powerful new computing platform that will be finding its way into tens of millions of homes, it seems likely that Microsoft will attempt to leverage the device to extend its reach throughout the home, offering a wide range of capabilities and services.
http://www.windowsfordevices.com/news/NS3988467635 .html [windowsfordevices.com]

That's doubletalk for "you must use MS ______ to view this content".

Enough!

[UncleRage]

Yeah, I know this is /. and it's so very 7331 to device really ubercool ways of taking down the evil Redmond giant....

But enough already!

Look, it's reall simple... and I'm going to spell it out for you. Ready?

Microsoft makes a product (Windows) that, in most of its incarnations, basically blows. We all know that. Every day, I promote Linux to as many of my clients / customers as I can. I sell new and refurb boxes with (k)Ubuntu installed. I build low-mid range servers running Gentoo and occasionally

Re:Enough!

[croddy]

Windows isn't what we should be afraid of. The technology behind Windows has already undergone two significant shifts (from 3.1 to 9x, and then to NT) -- and it will shift again. Windows is nothing to worry about. For all but a few users with specific niche needs, there are numerous other OS options which are ready to use.

The real danger is that the 360 represents some of the first real shooting in the DRM wars: a large-scale deployment of hard-wired cryptographic restrictions with the sole purpose of locking consumers out of their own property. Running Linux on this hardware is just a fun side effect of the very important and immediate need to defeat trusted computing and digital restrictions technology -- and to defeat it soundly and rapidly.

Re:Lies! All of it Lies!

[TubeSteak]

bbs --> newsgroups --> IRC --> the internet
somewhere in there are mailing lists

I'm not sure why you (an AC) is badmouthing IRC, but lots of serious conversation happens in various 'official' channels. Not everyone has left IRC.

A lot of exploits for the original Xbox were worked on in IRC channels... just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it ain't happening.