John Smedley On The New Galaxies 43
Gamespot has part one of an extensive interview with SOE CEO John Smedley about the recent and controversial changes made to Star Wars Galaxies. From the article: "Star Wars never hit that excitement level around here. It never got--there never was a critical mass of people here that wanted to play it. So we knew we could do way better. And I guess as much out of a love for making these kinds of games, even though that sounds corny, though it's true, we wanted to make this game better." We had our own talk with Mr. Smedley not too long ago.
It's a shame what they did :\ (Score:1)
NYT has a much different view... (Score:5, Interesting)
Must read.
Smedley is a liar and a thief. I'd normally never say that, but in his case, it's true.
Re:NYT has a much different view... (Score:2)
Parent is Not a Troll... (Score:1)
Their problem (Score:1)
Changes... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think part of what I read scared me. But it didn't when I read it at first, it was after a conversation I was having with someone regarding the another industry. It seems that other industries have relied heavily on their name brand to carry them through as well, and things happened and they had to tighten their belts. What will happen at SOE? I think that they are trying to target SWG to the "younger" generation.
Now we are hearing rhetoric and rumors from all sides to all extents about what is going to happen. Yes, I am still in the game, for now. Are more changes to come? Probably, but what will they bring?
Re:Changes... (Score:2)
Have you considered that if they are losing subscribers and failing to attract new ones in sufficient numbers, the people who have been playing the longest and keep playing m
Fun for the first hour (Score:4, Interesting)
The only hope now is that SOE either rolls back the servers (very unlikely), that they put up a few "classic" servers (also very unlikely), or that they shut it down completely (seems pretty likely) so that someone else might start from scratch with a second Star Wars MMORPG.
How about content? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me spell this out for you future game developers. Randomly generated content is not content, it's crap. The brain of even the slowest human can smell the difference between hand crafted and computer generated content. It's why the Turing test hasn't been passed, it's why automated customer service menus piss people off, and it's one of the reasons SWG failed.
Creating a massive world that was 99% empty might have seemed like a good idea on the surface, I know. You'd save all that time on programming, writing, implementing... you'd create beautiful cities (and you did), players would go to them and be merry... but all the rest of the world would be random. It didn't seem like a bad idea, I know. I can follow the thought process that led to SWG's design, and on paper, I can see how it might have sounded good.
But what you've got to understand, devs, is that there is no substitute for the human hand. Technology is great when used right, but it is not a good babysitter. Random levels worked for Nethack because it was a single player game, an ASCII game, and the design was genius for its time. But random will not work in a modern MMOG.
People need to fall in love with the world they're playing in, and a computer-generated design just can't inspire that love. Only the human hand can do that. Maybe in the next 20 years a genius programmer will come along who will write the algorithm that will be able to trick the human brain into loving it that way they love something painstakingly crafted by a human... but for now, you have to do it by hand.
I'm serious, game devs. I'm trying to save you millions of dollars. Don't do it. Hire a bunch of high school aged D&D DMs if your budget is that tight. Just hire a human, k?
(oh yeah, and crippling bugs wrapped in unstable code that never get fixed are bad too)
I'll take the opposing point (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think that random content is inherently bad. I don't think it'll always look like a computer made it and not a human. I don't even think that always matters.
You invoke the sacred and holy name of Nethack as a talisman against the gameplay it stands for, but the plain fact is, no one's ever tried to make Nethack-style random gameplay work in a commercial product. (Diablo does not count for reasons to be revealed.) And Nethack, despite how it looks, is absolutely not outdated -- indeed, its open source nature has spawned dozens of interesting and creative patches for the game, ranging from special levels (Lethe, Heck2) to new monsters (Biodiversity) to entire new play mechanics (Color Alchemy, described below).
But it is not controversial to say something like "Nethack rulez" on Slashdot, in which the radio of Nethackers as opposed to the general population is, shall we say, higher than normal. So to avoid mere karma whoring, I'll attempt to explain how to make random content work.
You do it by randomizing more than just maps. (Re Diablo: There.) Having an infinite amount of terrain to explore is not enough to make a game interesting. Roguelikes do it by also randomizing the item definitions, restricting player knowledge of them, and making their discovery a major part of each game. Some games randomize still more, or provide mechanisms by which the basic item randomization has profound effects on the game. Examples: The presence and alignments of altars in Nethack has a profound effect upon that game, even though technically they're just part of its map generation. ADOM generates different alchemy recipes each game, which can potentially give players a potent source of resources. There is a user-created patch, Color Alchemy, that does something similar in Nethack: instead of having that game's potion mixing system be based upon type (Healing Potion + Gain Energy Potion = Extra Healing Potion), it's based on the color in the potion descriptions (Whatever Red Potions are + Whatever Yellow Potions are = Whatever Orange Potions are)!
Also, randomly placed monsters are not interesting in a game in which they...
A.
And all true Roguelikes have permanent character death. When that foe around the corner could suddenly destroy your entire character, let alone his stats and equipment in ways that are not trivial to overcome, then that random generation begins to really mean something. Show me a MMORPG like *that* and I'll be there like a shot.
B.
So, I think you can indeed make randomly generated content, but it can't be half-assed. And ultima
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
A lot of people don't play Nethack. It's very appealing to a certain kind of person, and a very impressive feat of both game design and social engineering. It's a wonderful piece of work that anybody would be proud of.
But the reasons that Nethack hasn't conquered the gaming world go beyond anti-ASCII bias. It's not the game people want to play. Most of the reasons you list as good things about Nethack are precisely themselves the reasons
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
Well, my original was about the possibility of using random generation to create a game world. My point was that it can definitely work, but you can't just generate new terrain unless there's something about it (like Nethack's altars) that adds to the game beyond just adding a bunch more larg
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
Permanent character death will never appeal to more than a tiny fraction of players, though, particularly in a MMORPG where PvP is viewed as a greater necessity. There are just too many opportunities for griefers and bad luck to ruin the experience for the common player (lagdeath).
MMORPGS can make as much use of randomly generated content as any RPG game can. As a designer, you just have to know that rand
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
No, not that I'm aware.
The randomized item system is substantially different, and considering that identifying items has half the game in a Roguelike it's important that they get it right. One-use items are preidentified in Diablo 2. Equipment is often not ID'd, but it doesn't follow the "discover one, discover all" concept that true Roguelikes use. Further, all the "armor" tends to be different things on
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
Items are generated from a 64 bit random key, combined with an 8bit power level (used to limit the intensity of low level items).
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
The identity of the item matters less than how the player discovers its purpose.
multi-use(spell items),
But Nethack's multi-use spell items are much richer: wands can be zapped in a direction, at yourself, aimed at the ceiling or the floor, recharged, cancelled or broken. Concerning recharging, each time you recharge it, there's an increased chance the wand will blow up. If you zap an empty wand often enough, on each zap there's a 1-in-131 chance that you'll wrest a las
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:1)
If you played online, you had the option of playing on permadeath servers.
They also had "ladder" servers, where you tried to be the first to the top, with PvP available.
The ultimate King of the Hill, though, was the ladder PvP with permadeath. Now those were some damned hardcore players.
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
But concerning permadeath, sure, I'll take up the challenge of responding to why their permadeath isn't the same as Nethack's.
Both games allow the player to play a non-permadeath game. In Nethack, you arrange this by entering Discover Mode (Shift-X during
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
Yes, because Nethacks rule number one - think before you act - works so well in a realtime game.
Nethack works, because when you are in a tight spot, you can go walk you dog, sl
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
It might! I've yet to see anything about Nethack that makes it *imperative* that that style of play could not work in a real time setting. Maybe not for Nethack itself, (the DevTeam says in the FAQ on their site that they don't think realtime multiplayer is right for the game because of its complexity), but that style of game might still be workable. Rogue, for instance, is nowhere near as complicated as NH bu
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
Uh, the entire Fushigi no Dungeon series (Including Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon and Pokemon: Fushigi no Dungeon) which are commercial versions of Rogue and Nethack? I know for a fact there was a Gameboy Advance title along the same lins as well (Monster Dungeon or something along those lines).
I'm pretty sure I had to pay for those and they were nethack-style (to the point of being random).
Re:I'll take the opposing point (Score:2)
Yeah, I remembered those shortly after I posted. I don't know enough about them to see if they really seek to do what true Roguelikes do, or if they're half-hearted attempts to utilize that kind of gameplay, like Azu
Re:How about content? (Score:1)
On that note, why not put money into hiring "professional" role players with special access to the game. Maybe a REAL storm trooper recruiter who tells you to goto X planet at X time where you meet a real person playing the storm trooper sargent and from that point on you go through basic training and end up on a star destroyer, etc, etc. Hire PEOPLE to interact with the players. That
The problem with SWG (Score:2)
So after a few months, I quit and put my subscription fee towards TiV
The problem is (Score:1)
Re:The problem is (Score:2)
SWG is a fun game (Score:5, Interesting)
The first time you go in a group to dathomir and engage a lair of rancors. Well at least if you go in a good group (non buffed to the max group that can solo a rancor lair)
And that last bit is the problem. As you learned the game you found out that in the beginning you were hopelessly crippling yourselve. Your "action" points (health action mind) depleted only because you hadn't bought the proper buffs. Without buffs taking on a bunny could be a challenge. With them you could stand in a circle of enraged giant rancors and kick their but.
But this also ruined the fun. Gone were the carefully prepared expeditions. Do you know that at one point nobody went to dathomir without a medic in the group? When I left EVERYBODY including dancers and musicians were making the dathomir village run (if you don't know don't ask) 2x a day. (oh alright if you must know, to become a jedi you had to trade regular xp you gained by doing your chosen proffesion in the village. a 15 minute drive across dathomir wich turned the most hostile planet into a freaking highway)
Unlike other MMO games there was usually no problem in finding a group. Finding the members of the group was another matter. SWG may be the first MMO game to come up with the concept of the solo group. You see a high level combat character could easily handle the thoughest missions BUT was unable to get them when alone. You had to be in a group of about 5 to get the best missions (payout) so people grouped just to get missions wich they then did on their own. WEIRD.
After a while SOE realized the game was not going well and started changing things. One of them was the addition of dungeons. Not a bad idea in itself except that SOE populated them by enemies wich insane hitpoints and resists. So it became less exploring a carefull crafted story line in a dangerous location and more a constant 5 minute kicking contest. Most people just created a macro to trigger their best attacks and went to make coffee while clearing a room.
Remember those early usermade doom levels? Were every room had a dozen endbosses? Those levels that absolutly sucked? That is SWG "high level" content. Do a corvette mission once with a non maxed out combat character you will be death before you know it.
And that was SWG's biggest failure. It provided nothing in the middle. Once you had gone past the initial learning period it had a big void and then only the high level endgame were you either created a tricked out combat specialist and copied exactly the perfect template or you just didn't have a chance.
Same with crafting, nobody had any use for a mid level crafter. From almost the very beginning if you wanted to make money creating stuff you first had to grind to max level and then recoup your money by selling your high level goods. I tried chef and couldn't even give away my low level stuff.
Strangely enough it wasn't really the combat that was boring. What was boring was that sony decided that high level meant giving just 1 million hitpoints and 100% resists (yes 100% meaning they NEVER took damage) on all but one type of damage and if your proffesion didn't do that kind of damage, then though luck.
This meant that the end fights always became just a matter of having a good buff and then just beating away for 20 minutes. As a tka I even had "fights" were I would engage a night elder wich I couldn't damage but to keep her attention while a rifle specialist attacked her mind pool. Both of us used macro's and we chatted about how much it sucked we didn't get in the WoW beta.
SWG tried a lot but it also failed in a lot of areas. I think that they forgot during the initial design to hire somebody from out side to review it and give an unbiased opinion. There were just to many problems for the game to have a chance of success. What SOE is doing now is fixing symptoms not causes.
A shame (Score:2)
So, the question is.... (Score:1)
How do I shot Solo? (Score:2)
What Sony should
Please Open Source the Original SWG (Score:4, Informative)
My request to SOE is to release the original server code to the community and let us do it ourselves. As far as content is concerned, the player base was the content for me. Since my entire guild and brother left after the NGE, the new game just isn't worth it. My reasoning is this - I paid $80 for your game. Now the product is totally different than what is written on the game box. The manual is freaking worthless because the game is so different.
It sounds to me that since EQ2 isn't doing as well as they hoped, SOE just opted for a half-assed remake of SWG instead of SWG 2? Either that or a developer went postal on them in an unusual way.
Well here's a free idea to SOE: Allow players who reached the end game ne allowed to create areas, items, etc. I played on a mud (genocide) and when you reached the highest level a player gets to create their own realm.
Regards,
Piki Punobi [SK]
Corbanits
Shutting out former players (Score:1)
What do you do with a bad design? (Score:1)
The original SWG design was innovative, experimental, and horribly mangled. As a previous poster noted, once you'd figured out the action system, you could stand amongst a crowd of Rancors and laugh. This may be amusing if you like god-mode but it makes developing challenging encounters impossible.
So, as another poster noted, MOBs with complete invulnerability except for one weakness were released; this is also horrib
Business as usual for LucasArts Marketing (Score:1)
Anyone familiar with the way LucasArts alienated its legions of Adventure Game fans knows that this not unusual.
Cancelling the release of Sam and Max 2 weeks away from the release after fans waited 10 years for a sequel marked the end of respect for LucasArts. This was a company which had been heralded as the innovators of some of the most memorable and enjoyable games of all time.
Cynics believed that LucasArts would stop at nothing to feed the Star Wars machine, which is credited with having cost many of
just play WOW (Score:1)
Lies, all of it ... (Score:1)
Lies, lies and more lies... do I sound bitter? You're damn right I am, having been a paid subscriber since Dec 2003.
There was a rumor going around that SOE's contract with Lucas ends this coming May. I'd be surprised if SWG is around after that.
The only way this game would draw it's previous numbers is to roll back to pre NGE and start servers up again, leaving the existing NGE game running for whoever wants it. And ha, what are the chances of that... good bye SWG.
One necessary step (Score:2)