Trust In Virtual Worlds

The Escapist's last issue for the year touches on the currency of Trust in Massively Multiplayer Games. With virtual-world currency gaining ever more value in the real world, in-game scams and lies can be deadly serious. When you give away that Trust, business can boom. From the article: "Their business plan is an ingenious one: Rather than engage in the wars that rage through alliance space, ISS has chosen to take a neutral stance, building a huge player-operated structure known as an 'outpost' that provides repair, refitting and marketing services to all comers. In a star system known simply as KDF-GY, ISS has established a little Switzerland in space, where pilots of rival corps and alliances can dock to do business, sell loot and kit out their battlecruisers for the next engagement. And according to Martin Wiinholt and Shayne Smart, the 30-something players behind Count TaSessine and Serenity Steele, respectively, business is good."

Eve.....

[MBraynard]

So promising, but so complicated.

I recently got my newbie industrial ship blown out of the sky (empty, mind you) in .3 space. Kinda sucks.

Other things that suck - needing bookmarks. It's a nusance issue where it takes forever to get anywhere unless you go get bookmarks.

Finally, there is no difinitive 'how to play eve' book. There is info scattered across numerous websites, but the CCP new player guide is awful.

Finally, you have no control over the design/color of your ship. You can't give it a certain p

Re:Eve.....

[DangerSteel]

The name of the game is in the subject line...Eve.

Linden's mistake

[rodentia]

"We want to ensure that new residents have easy access to additional L$ without having to take yet another leap of trust to sign up and give payment information to a third party," said Linden Lab economic czar Lawrence Linden. But residents had already taken that leap of trust with GOM, and been rewarded.

Indeed. I daresay one would have greater trust in the third party, whose business solely relied upon professional integrity and actual fiduciary trust. Linden as market maker for L$ is the fox guarding the henhouse. GOM had no fiduciary interest in the exchange ratio, merely the conduct of exchanges.

On the subject of trust...

[1WingedAngel]

This is the same game where one of the best examples of trust betrayed in an online world can be found. The below story is well worth the read and has been cited numerous times as an example of the risk inherent in an online world.
The Big Scam [circa1984.com]

Re:On the subject of trust...

[Decessus]

Yes, they mentioned this scam via a link to the same website that you have listed.

Re:On the subject of trust...

[1WingedAngel]

Yes, they mentioned this scam via a link to the same website that you have listed.

I missed that the first time. Mayhaps their web designer can lay off on some of the aesthetics for a little more ease of use. The partially underlined links don't stand out all that well.

Scam

[6350']

There were actually two scams of note: both the buy-in scam from some time ago, and the more recent uber-attack in which an entire corporation was taken over, its assets gutted, and it's leader killed in game -- all by a year-long setup from an assasins guild in the game. Absolutely incredible to see this kind of thing possible in a game.

Re:Scam

[secolactico]

There were actually two scams of note: both the buy-in scam from some time ago, and the more recent uber-attack in which an entire corporation was taken over, its assets gutted, and it's leader killed in game -- all by a year-long setup from an assasins guild in the game. Absolutely incredible to see this kind of thing possible in a game.

I'm sort of familiar with the buy in scam (read about it a while ago). I haven't found info on that corporate takeover thing you mention. Can you provide links? Eve is o

Re:Scam

[Swanktastic]

I happened to read this article while glancing at the magazine rack in a bookstore, and found it a compelling read. If anything, all this publicity about scams/events in EVE would seem to attract players interested in the commercial aspects of MMORPGs, along with your occasional bad apple.

Someone put scans up, and the site seems to have exceeded bandwidth. Hopefully this Google cache works for you:

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:ng1TNWjULLsJ: www.mmodig.com/%3Fp%3D155&hl=en [google.com]

Enjoy!

Re:Scam

[hardburn]

Corp takeover [eve-online.com]. Grabbed an incredible ammount of items. If it had happened to me, I probably would have quit the game instead of trying to start over from scratch.

Re:On the subject of trust...

[skinfitz]

Thanks for sharing - I just finished reading The Big Scam and it's very entertaining!

WoW

[steveo777]

Yeah, some gnome mage told me that that if me and my who guild gave him a gold piece each, we would get eternal happiness. Some joke that was. One second we're sitting around the gnome handing out buckets of cash in the middle of Mulgore, the next second hundreds of 50+ lvl Taurens overan us and camped our bodies for the next six hours.

I'm thinking, WTF? That doesn't make me happy.

Yeah!

[chriso11]

Corporations are here to save us! How come I never noticed that before?

This stuff is cool, but I think that the reason it works is because the virtual corporations still require player support. In the real world, corporations have managed to turn the tables on citizens, so that now the corporations interests supercepe that of citizens.

Re:Yeah!

[MBraynard]

This stuff is cool, but I think that the reason it works is because the virtual corporations still require player support. In the real world, corporations have managed to turn the tables on citizens, so that now the corporations interests supercepe that of citizens.

Sounds like you don't exactly exist in the real world either - maybe Michael Moore's fantasy world.

All public corporations in the US are owned by citizens. Everything from Wal-Mart to Haliburton (in which Moore owns stock) to MS to whatever boo

Re:Yeah!

[Elwood P Dowd]

All public corporations in the US are owned by citizens.

You're an idiot. That isn't true. Even if it was true, the owners of public corporations cannot be held responsible for the actions of those corporations. Any ordinary, practical definition of ownership doesn't apply.

Re:Yeah!

[Elwood P Dowd]

Thanks for reminding me. It's been too long since I've listened to "5 million ways to kill a CEO".

Re:Yeah!

[buffer-overflowed]

Next time firestone puts out bogus tires that cause a few deaths, let's charge all the shareholders with murder.

After all, they had control.

Re:Yeah!

[Marxist Hacker 42]

What more control do you want?

I want corporate power to be limited to non-governmental roles; no lobbying, no ability to subvert democracy. I want corporations, as artificial beings under the law, to be limited to a 40 year lifespan. I want corporations to *prove* in their charters that they are doing something for the public good, and if found to not be following their charter, their incorporation should be revoked. I want all stockholders of a corporation to be citizens of this nation, and swear loy

Re:Yeah!

[chriso11]

Well, then explain how Enron adheres to that view. Or Worldcom. Or Tyco, Aedelphi, and Global Crossing. But it's not just the scandals. Look into ADM (Archer Daniels Midland Corp) sometime. Halliburton and the no-bid contracts are another example. Hey, even Love Canal.

Next, take a look where all of the corporations are based - try Bermuda, which provides wonderful tax advantages. Look at how many companies are opening up facilities in Ireland, also for tax advantages.

And no, I don't feel 'alianated' (or eve

Re:Yeah!

[MBraynard]

The way the parent posted, you would have thought that corporations had political power - when all political power is in the hands, for better or worse, of citizens. Corporations cannot vote _at all_.

I doubt most people here even realy know what a corp is.

Not quite

[chriso11]

Just because corporations cannot vote does not mean they do not influence the political process. Political power is in the hands of elected representatives. When was the last time that a political representative asked all (or even a modest percentage) of his constituants on a particular issue? If you think the DMCA was proposed and pushed by the grassroots, you are sorely mistaken. How about the criminalization of copyright violations? Or the copyright extensions? I just chose this area because it is easies

Re:Not quite

[MBraynard]

When was the last time that a political representative asked all (or even a modest percentage) of his constituants on a particular issue?

Yeah, just as dumb as I thought you were.

They do this every two/four/six years depending on what office they are in. They ask all of their constituents 'Do you like the job I am doing?'

And anyone is welcome to tell their representative what they think. When was the last time you wrote your representative knew what you think? I doubt you can even name all three of them, m

Re:Not quite

[Swanktastic]

And anyone is welcome to tell their representative what they think. When was the last time you wrote your representative knew what you think? I doubt you can even name all three of them, much less those for your state gov.

I think the saddest day in my life as a participant in the democratic process was a discussion I had with a friend who was in a US Sentor's staff.

They have a whole group of people whose job is to acknowledge that a comment was received from a contituent. "Thank you for your input" type of

Re:Not quite

[MBraynard]

Most Senators/Representatives view their election as a mandate to carry out their predispotions as they wish- after all the educated electorate knew all about their opinions when they were elected, right?

Sounds fine to me. And it sounds like you don't have a very good Senator. I was in a seminar with a guy who did a study on how Congress handles constituent contact and they normally keep tallies on issues and they can be influential. They also almost always give a reply. But one letter is just one letter -

Re:Not quite

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Not really. Even before I was old enough to vote I organized a group of fellow students, also not old enough to vote, and petitioned our city council to pass an ordinance banning public display of obscenity on clothing. Also, before I could vote, I circulated pamplets on defeating the Clinton healthcare plan throughout my town and got hundreds of letters (which actually do count) into federal representatives urging them to oppose the plan. That battle was won, too.

Both of which probably required more mon

Re:Not quite

[MBraynard]

Both of which probably required more money than the average citizen can lay his hands on. But what a selfish prick you are- destroying the health of millions so that your socio-economic class can be taxed less.

Actually, the first one didn't cost me anything and the second thing cost me $70 for 1500 fliers.

Technically, we weren't lobbying against 'a plan' but we were lobbying against provisions in the plan that would kill unborn children and euthanize (a pretty European word for kill) elderly people at tax

Re:Not quite

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Actually, the first one didn't cost me anything and the second thing cost me $70 for 1500 fliers.

For the people that universal health care would have helped, $70 is a week's groceries- or a week's heating bill. When you're too poor to invest, you're too poor to lobby.

Technically, we weren't lobbying against 'a plan' but we were lobbying against provisions in the plan that would kill unborn children and euthanize (a pretty European word for kill) elderly people at taxpayer expense.

Yep, I'm sure that'

Re:Not quite

[MBraynard]

For the people that universal health care would have helped, $70 is a week's groceries- or a week's heating bill. When you're too poor to invest, you're too poor to lobby.

I scraped the money up I got from mowing lawns. I was 14 at the time and it was important and educational to me.

You really can't lecture me or anyone else about humanity. Socialist medicine is ruinous to a nation's healthcare system and it's medical research and the economy. Everyone in Europe is realizing this and also in Australia wher

Re:Not quite

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Socialist medicine is ruinous to a nation's healthcare system and it's medical research and the economy.

See my latest Journal Entry- by any real measure Europe has longer lifespans and a more robust economy than the United States. If anything our private healthcare system is a millstone that is dragging American corporations down and making us uncompetitive with the rest of the world.

You already lost that debate and I won - way back in 1993.

Too bad by 2001 your "win" was already turning into a major

Re:Not quite

[MBraynard]

Maybe you should compare Europeans to white Americans alone.

62 mill is another lie. If you are poor, you have medicaid, particularly children. And really, if you are an adult without healthcare, either you don't want it or you need to get a job that offers it and stop whining.

AAHH. I made a mistake. Your name - I should have known nothing you would say would be anything other than lies. Not replying anymore. Your typical tactic is to just bury people under your excrement of deceptions.

Re:Not quite

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Maybe you should compare Europeans to white Americans alone.

Well, in that case, the Europeans really win out hands down- their lifespans are a good 10 years above your average white American.

62 mill is another lie. If you are poor, you have medicaid, particularly children.

Not at all true- especially after the last round of cuts to medicaid. There are plenty of people who monthly have to choose between insurance premiums and mortgage payments.

And really, if you are an adult without healthcare, eithe

Re:Not quite

[chriso11]

Microsoft enjoyed more than $12 billion in total tax breaks over the past five years. In fact, Microsoft actually paid no tax at all in 1999, despite $12.3 billion in reported U.S. profits. Microsoft's tax rate for the past two years was only 1.8 percent on $21.9 billion in pretax U.S. profits.

General Electric, America's most profitable corporation, reported $50.8 billion in U.S. profits over the past five years, but paid only 11.5 percent of that in federal income taxes. That low tax rate reflected almost

Re:Not quite

[chriso11]

Profit does not equal taxable income because of accounting games such as Round Island One Ltd. [post-gazette.com], which I mentioned earlier.

In case you are link-adverse - "Round Island One provides a structure for Microsoft to radically reduce its corporate taxes in much of Europe, and similarly shields billions of dollars from U.S. taxation."

Do you think that is fair? If so, then I guess you have Leona Helmsley's take on taxes then - Only the little people pay taxes.

Re:Not quite

[chriso11]

Well, ok, we are closing on on the fundamental disagreements.

My assertion is that the loopholes exist at least in part due to corporate influence on the legislative process. While the entire process may be completely legal:
1) influence legislature to pass favorable laws
2) reap benefits of new law
3) repeat

It does not mean it is 'right', nor fair, nor is what the majority of people want. But you really don't care about that. And economic growth is not the be-all and end-all of our civilization. At the very le

Re:Not quite

[Marxist Hacker 42]

1) I don't think it is wrong, unfair, or even bad that corporations attempt to influence legislation. Often, corporations are closest to an issue to provide legislators real information. Any information provider to a legislator will have a bias. In fact, knowledge and bias go hand-in-hand. It also seems unrealistic to say that only unemployed individuals can lobby. It is ultimately up to the elected representative to know when they are receiving good or bad information.

In a democracy, any bias towards mon

Re:Yeah!

[Golias]

I doubt most people here even realy know what a corp is.

[Robbins]Let me explain to you how this works: you see, the corporations finance Team America, and then Team America goes out... and the corporations sit there in their... in their corporation buildings, and... and, and see, they're all corporation-y... and they make money.[/Robbins]

Re:Yeah!

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Voting is just for show in the 21st century. Lobbying is where the political power is at; lobbying takes money. Big money. Money that only corporations can amass, not individual shareholders or citizens. Voting is NOTHING in comparison to the legalized bribery of lobbying in our system.

Re:Yeah!

[eyepeepackets]

"All public corporations in the US are owned by citizens. Everything from
Wal-Mart to Haliburton (in which Moore owns stock) to MS to whatever boogie man
you fantasize about."

Any person on the planet can own stock in publicly traded corporations as I
understand it, so saying corporations are "owned by citizens" is not technically
correct.

What the original poster suggested and the others following refer to is the apparent
ability of corporations, particularly multi-national corporations, to avoid the
repercussions of responsibility for their behavior. Such responsibility
avoidance is, in essence, a variation on the old con known as the "shell game."
It plays out in corporate and governance thusly: One concentrates authority in a
small group (corporate board and their purchased politicians) whilst diluting
responsibility over as large a group as possible (stock holders.) With this
manner of construct, the authority can pretty much do as it pleases and, when
things get nasty, the authority points to the responsible body, stock holders.
But the catch is that only the very biggest of the stock holding groups have a
voice that will garner a response from the corporate board. Funny how these
stock holding groups and corporate boards seem to all blend together into a
rather small group of the same folks.

As a test of your "responsible citizens" theory of corporate ownership,
please go buy what shares you can afford of a corporate stock, complain about
what and how they do, and let us know the result.

That our governments allow corporations under current law is proof simple that
the politicians are in their pockets: The entire corporate law/structure is a
responsibility avoidance device. Companies, whether incorporated or not, are run
by humans who make decisions with consequences and should be held fully
accountable and would be if our political systems weren't so very corrupt. Take
a look at where your congress critter's re-election money comes from for an
eye-opener than only the willfully ignorant (another definition for the word
"stupid") can pretend away.

Caio.

   

Re:Yeah!

[servognome]

That our governments allow corporations under current law is proof simple that the politicians are in their pockets:

Which demonstrates one of the weaknesses of democracy - it only works if there is an educated and interested populace.

Those in power wish to remain in power, in democracy it means they must campaign to become re-elected. Ideally votes would be based on service to the citizens. However, with apathetic citizens, it becomes who gets the most ads on TV/newspapers/etc to rally an interested mi

Re:Yeah!

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Those in power wish to remain in power, in democracy it means they must campaign to become re-elected.

Either that, or they're just puppets and the corporations that own the puppets simply pay campaign contributions to all possible sides to make sure that anybody elected will do their bidding no matter what.

That's right

[Red Flayer]

So, the article is basically saying that it's a new thing for people in MMOGs to have the level of trust where they'd invest (collectively) thousands of dollars in a cooperative venture (EVE). Especially since that the same time, Linden Labs established a currency trading service, despite a private service being available, because people can't trust other people.

The difference here is that the entire foundation of success in EVE is trust and cooperation. In order to have the kind of cash necessary to buy shares, you have to have trusted people previously.

I can't see this working in most other MMOGs, since 'griefing' and scamming are well established in the cultures of WoW and others. Though frowned upon, thiose are games where trust of others is not necessary (as TFA points out, but does not stress).

Trust is the reason that guilds are successful in MMOGs, as has been discussed many times on /. It's the same principle, just not as fiscally structured as the 'neutral outpost' in EVE.

Re:That's right

[Stephenmg]

Since I play Eve...

A little background on why people would trust ISS.

ISS is very large alliance. If they break the trust of other people, it will hurt them in the long run.

Yes, scamming is part of the game, that is why trust is hard to come by. Its often earned through very hard work.