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XBox (Games)

360 Disc Scratching Serious Problem 470

Posted by Zonk from the watch-what-you-play dept.
Though Microsoft has previously stated that a reported problem where Xbox 360s may be scratching game discs was relatively rare, it's apparently common enough that rental agency GameFly has an official policy on the problem. From Gamasutra: "We have received reports that certain XBOX 360 consoles have caused damage to GameFly videogames. Unfortunately, we have been notified that you recently returned a damaged XBOX 360 game. As a precaution, we have removed all XBOX 360 games from your GameQ. Please contact Microsoft at 1-800-4MY-XBOX. Please do not rent XBOX 360 games until you have resolved this issue. In the future, should GameFly receive XBOX 360 games from you that have been damaged, you will be charged a replacement fee."
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360 Disc Scratching Serious Problem More

360 Disc Scratching Serious Problem

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  • simple solution.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mustafap ( 452510 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:19AM (#14378010) Homepage
    Just make a copy of it first, and play the copy inste... ah. silly me.
    • Even if you could, we're talking about a rental service, so it's not your game to copy.

      • Re:simple solution.. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mustafap ( 452510 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:31AM (#14378046) Homepage
        >so it's not your game to copy.

        I completely agree it's not mine to copy, but it will become mine pretty damned quickly if I scratch it. And I bet I would be charged the full game price as a replacement.

        Maybe the rental company should have backups. Kind of makes me nervous about renting games now.

        • we're screwed with blue-ray. (Score:5, Interesting)

          by User 956 ( 568564 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @09:03AM (#14378131) Homepage
          I completely agree it's not mine to copy, but it will become mine pretty damned quickly if I scratch it. And I bet I would be charged the full game price as a replacement. Maybe the rental company should have backups. Kind of makes me nervous about renting games now.

          This kind of blows a big hole in the *AA's argument that all this copy protection BS is really about preventing piracy. It seems to me that more and more, it's about getting the customer to buy multiple copies of the same content.

          This point is even more obvious when you look at the way the Blue-ray copy protection works [cdfreaks.com]. If you get even the tiniest scratch on the ROM MARK on the disc, the disc is UNUSABLE. Doesn't matter if the rest of the surface of the disc is pristine, your $30 movie is now worthless. (yes, $30, you know they're going to charge 2x or 3x what a normal DVD costs).

          That spells it out pretty clearly. The future is downloaded movies. And music. and games. And no, I'm not talking about DRM'ed ones that you pay for.
          • You know, I wonder(and we will see) if HD-DVD might win by default if the so called rom-mark has issues. If a mastered Disney movie gets screwed up then distributed then continues to render all the Blu-Ray players useless, what kind of lawsuits wil we see happen.
            Mastering glitches happen all the time and the only one that comes to mind is the Back To The Future glitch that the studio replaced.

            It seems like instead of going after the criminals that sell copied movies out of their trunk, they're making the c
            • You know, I wonder(and we will see) if HD-DVD might win by default if the so called rom-mark has issues.

              I wonder if both Blu-ray and HD-DVD are destined to fail. For many people, DVD quality is good enough, and the restrictive DRM on both formats is going to be a huge turnoff for even the Joe Sixpacks of the world. If the studios keep producing standard DVDs and price them cheaper than the HD/Blu-ray disks, I would say their fate is sealed for sure.
              • I don't see how they are destined to fail, when they will have the force of law behind them. The MPAA stormtroopers, authorized by congress, will police every home and make sure you are watching your daily quota of MPAA programs on MPAA authorized players. If necessary you'll be made to watch your quota clockwork-orange style, citizen. So get used to it.

                So really, I can't see how they could possibly fail.

        • Re:simple solution.. (Score:2, Informative)

          by JLennox ( 942693 )
          Block Buster did attempt to start using flash carts for the Genesis console prior to its death. The idea never set foot, and I'm not sure if this is due to legal reasons, but they did, of course, intend to own proper lisencing for all of these games.

      • His for the duration of rental (Score:4, Interesting)

        by CarpetShark ( 865376 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @10:24AM (#14378534)

        Actually, it IS his copy of the game, for as long as he's rented it. Essentially, he has an unseen license with his copy. If that copy fails, the license is still valid, and he should be able to whip out another copy, and use it instead, without any problems.

        However, anyone who buys an X-Box is supporting a company that wants to harm their rights, so it's a non-issue for me either way. Make your bed, lie in it.

    • Re:simple solution.. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by alexhs ( 877055 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:27AM (#14378032) Homepage Journal
      Only one comment and someone already came with the same point I would have written...
      But I don't think it's funny, it's just the normal use of a backup copy...
      GameFly shouldn't charge its customers but instead ask the game editor for a disk replacement. After all, they're not buying discs but licenses, right ?

      • Re:simple solution.. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by chrismcdirty ( 677039 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:50AM (#14378093) Homepage
        You're paying for a license to play the game until you need a backup copy of the game. But when you do need a copy, you're suddenly paying for the physical media.
        • You're paying for a license to play the game until you need a backup copy of the game. But when you do need a copy, you're suddenly paying for the physical media.

          What I meant is that if you're technically denied the legal (*) right to make backup copies, you should be entitled the right to get a new copy if the original one is damaged without paying for a 2nd license. Now of course it would be OK to pay the nickel that costs the media, you're paying it anyway when making a backup by yourself, but the cost

      • Re:simple solution.. (Score:2, Informative)

        by KDR_11k ( 778916 )
        Unless the x360 changed that, console games are NOT licensed, they are bought. There is no EULA in console games and the only contract applying to them is the sales contract.

        • Re:simple solution.. (Score:4, Informative)

          by sqlrob ( 173498 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:57AM (#14378106)
          No EULA? No click-through is more accurate.

          Go look in the back of the manual.

        • Re:simple solution.. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Pr0Hak ( 2504 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @10:13AM (#14378465)
          Just because you don't click "I Agree" to a license agreement does not mean that the work has no protections under copyright law. Although there is no contract between you and the publisher, what you have purchased is the media and the right to access the copyrighted work on the media -- you can't legally go out and make copies of the game for all your buddies anymore than you can legally make and give away a bunch of copies of a book you have purchased from a bookstore.
      • Not to derail your point, which is well taken, but they're probably just sending them off to be resurfaced. DVD resurfacing is a well-known trade, and professional no-risk resurfacing can cost 5 - 10 dollars. I'm guessing GameFly would have volume discount relationships with resurfacing vendors to drive that down a bit, or has bought their own professional resurfacing machine for 2 - 20k and has figured out how to use it.

        I seriously doubt that the scratching gets bad enough to penetrate to the data layer,
        • I seriously doubt that the scratching gets bad enough to penetrate to the data layer, so they shouldn't need to re-buy.

          They didn't say whether the discs were getting scratched on the bottom, or the top. The bottom has a pretty thick clear layer, but the data layer is not protected as heavily on the top. Take a pair of scissors to the top of a DVD-R or CD-R and you'll see what I mean. it's easy to scrape the data layer right off.
          • That's true only for CD(r)'s...
            In case of DVD's however, the datalayer is in the middle of the disc, between two clear layers of equal thickness. So damaging the datalayer of a DVD is equally easy (or difficult) from both sides of the disc.
            This is true for both dual- as singlelayer discs.
            • So damaging the datalayer of a DVD is equally easy (or difficult) from both sides of the disc.

              So this means one of two things. Either the XBOX 360 discs are terribly flimsy, or the "scratching problem" means some of the consoles are terribly defective. terrific.
      • I don't think that any of the game publishers would want to cooperate with Gamefly. This is exactly the type of business that loses the publishers money.

        I would guess that I would get better service calling about a disk with an error than Gamefly would.
        • > I don't think that any of the game publishers would want to cooperate with Gamefly.

          It's not about cooperation but law...

          (pasting from another of my comments in that thread)
          If you're technically denied the legal (*) right to make backup copies, you should be entitled the right to get a new copy if the original one is damaged without paying for a 2nd license.

          But rental shops probably do not get the same terms of license than the usual customer (they aren't exactly "End User"), and my percedent post is c

  • Whoa... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:21AM (#14378012)
    Would you please stop ridiculing XBox360 fanboys?

    I've spend $400 on that console and don't want to hear bad news about it.

  • Walmart took back my scratched disk... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:22AM (#14378016)
    Just an FYI. I don't know if they will still do that, but their 'accept all return' policy is handy for this...

  • More problems? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by LoRdTAW ( 99712 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:22AM (#14378017)
    And I thought Microsoft has enough of a back eye with faulty power supplies, bad consoles and some people even having defective accessories like the hdd and wireless controllers. This 360 roll out looks to be seriously rushed in order to get a one up on Sony. Unfortunatly they keep tripping over there own feet.
    • Their not the only ones tripping over they're own feat.

    • Re:More problems? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Tim Browse ( 9263 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:57AM (#14378108)
      and some people even having defective accessories like the hdd and wireless controllers.

      You mean some people have bought accessories for a large scale global consumer product, and some of them are faulty?

      Say it aint so! This is brand new information!

      • Re:More problems? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by SuiteSisterMary ( 123932 ) <{slebrun} {at} {gmail.com}> on Monday January 02, 2006 @09:10AM (#14378166) Journal

        Yeah. Don't you just love how nobody mentions the massive flaws and return rates for the launches of the Playstation 1, the Dreamcast, and the Playstation 2?

        • Re:More problems? (Score:5, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 02, 2006 @10:15AM (#14378483)
          I picked up my Dreamcast the night of launch at around 12:15 AM. I got it home by 12:30 AM. Opened it up and got it hooked up by 12:40 AM. Put in Sonic the Hedgehog and couldn't get passed the setup dashboard. Put in Blue Stinger and had the same effect. System made grinding noises and shook when attempting to read either game. Took out the disk and noticed shearing marks across the surface. Packaged the system back up by 1:00 AM. Got back to the store at 1:15 AM. They were still open with a fairly sizable line out of the door. Walked in and returned it right then and there with a bunch of onlookers who were completely aghast. Got the replacement back home but decided that I really needed to get up for work at 6:00 AM so I went to bed.

          The next day I managed to play Sonic the Hedgehog for about 20 minutes. Blue Stinger again wouldn't manage past the setup dashboard. In this case, however, there was no scratching. After the first game on Sonic I couldn't get it to load again. It took about a week to obtain a copy of Sonic the Hedgehog that would work reliably. No luck with Blue Stinger so I traded that out for something else entirely. Found out later that one of the three or four manufacturing plants that was pressing Dreamcast games was fucking them all up and about 66% of all Sonic the Hedgehogs was affected as well as nearly all Blue Stingers.

          Launches go to shit sometimes. We in the US are often fairly shielded from this because Japan is oftentimes the guinea pig. We got to miss out on the majority of Nintendo and Playstation failures as a result. Playstation 2 had a bunch of problems, from overheating consoles to memory card corruption which led to DVD firmware corruption and the loss of the ability to play DVDs entirely. Those items were fixed by the time the console jumped the pond.

          The moral of this story is that shit will always go wrong, the question is how badly. The Dreamcast launch was a total mess given the game fabrication SNAFU. The 360 launch is relatively quiet as a result, other than people trashing all things Microsoft. The quoted failure rate is around 2-3%, which is actually quite low. I don't even expect that high of a success rate when I purchase workstations in bulk (250 per order, expected failure rate around 5%, mostly due to hard drive failure, within the first month).
    • This 360 roll out looks to be seriously rushed in order to get a one up on Sony. Unfortunatly they keep tripping over there own feet.

      Was there ever any doubt? You'd have to be crazy to buy a game console in the initial run. Unless it's Nintendo - they pretty much do their own thing (:

    • Controllers?? (Score:5, Funny)

      by ccharles ( 799761 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @11:16AM (#14378801)
      having defective accessories like the hdd and wireless controllers
      Ha! I can understand the power supplies, hard drives and scratched disks, but controllers coming without wires at all? Come on, people: let's have some quality control!
  • ... gave them a huge black eye in the japanese market they never really recovered from over there.

    Sucks to be in Microsoft hardware right about now, thought they would have learned their lesson five fucken' years ago.
    • Sucks to be in Microsoft hardware right about now, thought they would have learned their lesson five fucken' years ago.
      That the japanese market is extremely insular? You really can't compare incumbent Japanese companies to outside companies, and try to draw straightforward conclusions, because Japanese consumers in many markets prefer Japanese brands.
    • From what I've heard, the lack of success in Japan comes from the games available for the 360. They tend to be more interested in strategy/rpgs rather than first person shooters.
    • I've experienced scratching on my original XBox. The only game that's caused this was DDR Ultramix 2. You may think well you were jumping around and that caused the lens to bounce up into the disc, but after I noticed the problem on my first disc I exchanged it for another copy. I put this new disc in a second Xbox I had, started a song I knew was skipping on the other disc and just listened to the XBox instead of jumping around on the pads. This second disc caused the drive to do the same thing again.

  • I wish... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Private Taco ( 808864 )
    ...I could fuck up things as often as Micro$oft and still pull in metric tons of money...

    • Re:I wish... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ozmanjusri ( 601766 )
      I could fuck up things as often as Micro$oft and still pull in metric tons of money.

      That's the problem with them, and why so many of us are critical of them. They fuck things up, and we have to keep paying for it with our time, expertise and cash. It's called an abuse of monopoly power.

    • Re:I wish... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by JDooty1234 ( 253000 )
      How did this comment get modded "Insightful"? Seriously, Microsoft has to have done something right to have come this far and have as much force as they do in the market, even if it's not video games and hardware that they excel at. Among questionable business practices and glaringly lacking browser functionality, there are some redeeming qualities.

      I wish I could own a company that, even though tons of idiots deride my success, can continue to succeed and innovate as much (or as little) as Microsoft.

      • Re:I wish... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by gstoddart ( 321705 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @11:58AM (#14379034) Homepage
        How did this comment get modded "Insightful"? Seriously, Microsoft has to have done something right to have come this far and have as much force as they do in the market, even if it's not video games and hardware that they excel at. Among questionable business practices and glaringly lacking browser functionality, there are some redeeming qualities.

        Well, it all started when they signed an onerous monopoly licensing agreement with IBM that said their OS would be distributed with all machines, and that everyone had to pay them wether or not they wanted it. Then they made boat loads of money.

        They've steadily been putting out incremental, costly upgrades to work out the shoddy workmanship since. This made them further boat loads of money. It eventually took a lawsuit to be able to buy a PC without Microsoft being paid as well -- you remember that, right?

        Now, they use all of those boat loads of money to move into markets and basically take them over. There have been tons of examples of better quality products being pushed out of the market by Microsoft overwhelming them. (Either by buying them, stealing their technology, making their OS incompatible, not adhering to standards, or just playing the waiting game of who could afford to lose the most money in a market segment.)

        Microsoft has made an industry out of selling shoddy/first version products that eventually get upgraded to reasonable products through a long and costly upgrade cycle, and convincing everyone along the way it was all for the best.

        As much as it always sounds like people are just bashing Microsoft because they can, it is perfectly insightful of the poster to point out that Microsoft can continue to keep putting out dodgy stuff and still make oodles of money -- they've always done so.

        Microsoft can perpetuate itself because it has such a huge war chest, and a guaranteed revenue stream from upgrades and new customers who don't seem to have options, or don't know better when they do.

        You may personally disagree with the sentiment, but having been watching it happen for the last 20 years, that's how it seems to have played out to me.

    • Re:I wish... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by StarvingSE ( 875139 )
      Easy problem to solve... don't be an early adopter. Wait until the reviews/problem reports come out. Then decide whether or not you want to purchase the product. I'm sure the Xbox 360 will be fine a year from now after this public beta test.

  • They should rename that thingy... (Score:3, Funny)

    by ceeam ( 39911 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:27AM (#14378030)
    XBox360? How 'bout Happy-Fun-XBox?

    • Re:They should rename that thingy... (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Happy FUN XBox!

      -only $414.95-

      Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to Happy Fun XBox.
      Caution: Happy Fun XBox may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
      Happy Fun XBox Contains a liquid core, which, if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
      Do not use Happy Fun XBox on concrete and/or carpets.

      Discontinue use of Happy Fun XBox if any of the following occurs:
      Itching
      Vertigo
      Dizziness
      Tingling in extremities
      Loss of balance or coord
    • That sounds suspicously like you're taunting Happy-Fun-XBox.

  • Seems like a fair, user-friendly policy (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MadCow42 ( 243108 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:28AM (#14378034) Homepage
    I'd continue doing business with them anyways. They're making the user aware of a real problem, but not charging them for the first damaged disc(s). It's only fair that damages after they're made aware of the issue are chargeable.

    Most companies would charge for the first discs too - after all, it's the rental company that's most likely to have to swallow the cost (unless Microsoft coughs up... how likely is that to a rental house?).

    Kudos to them...

    MadCow.
    • Doesn't seem so fair to me. How do they know the xbox damaged the disc? What if is was damaged by the employee who was checking it for damage, and they want to cover their ass? That's what I would do if I worked there and scratched a disc. What if it was damaged in any other way?

      Now if three or four discs came back from they same customer damaged, they might have a case. But one disc?

  • Why all the bad press? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:30AM (#14378040)
    Sometimes I wonder if a competing company is behind some of these stories.

    At a minimum, the headline of "360 Disc Scratching Serious Problem" is a little sensationalist, no?

    Just because a game rental company comes up with an official policy to deal with an issue, doesn't mean that issue is a "serious problem" - usually it just means that it happened often enough that they wanted to put something down on paper to reduce support calls. (And, frankly, warning users that their consoles might be causing disk damage is a good idea. But that isn't something that's limited to the 360. PS2s have been known to scratch disks as well.)

    What about posting a story about the majority of Xbox 360 users that don't have any problems, instead of the (vocal) small percentage who do? Or maybe a story about the fast turnaround time of Xbox 360 tech support? (5-7 days for a brand new / fixed console, for a friend of mine)

    I can honestly say that I have not had a single problem since I got my Xbox 360 on release day. (I am waiting on some games to push the hardware to its max, but that's a separate issue.)

    • Re:Why all the bad press? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Fred Or Alive ( 738779 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:46AM (#14378083)
      Because positive stories ("Man very happy with Xbox 360 technical support") don't make good news.
    • Hmm, let's lok at this the following way:

      Rental agencies always have some percentage of damaged returns - that's part of the business that is taken into account.
      Posting a note that there may be a problem with product X from a company Y that prevents user to rent specific products for that product from the company has two following effects:
      * Company Y, especially if the product X may suffer from the bad press of aknowledgement that there is a problem with a product may and probably will take notice.
    • Yeah, stories like "Plane crashes, 300 dead" are sensationalist, why don't they write stories about the billions of people who didn't die that day?

    • Re:Why all the bad press? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MilenCent ( 219397 ) <johnwh AT gmail DOT com> on Monday January 02, 2006 @09:26AM (#14378228) Homepage
      What about posting a story about the majority of Xbox 360 users that don't have any problems, instead of the (vocal) small percentage who do? Or maybe a story about the fast turnaround time of Xbox 360 tech support? (5-7 days for a brand new / fixed console, for a friend of mine)

      I can honestly say that I have not had a single problem since I got my Xbox 360 on release day. (I am waiting on some games to push the hardware to its max, but that's a separate issue.)

      So, until it happens to you, the problem doesn't exist?

      I've heard about the scratching problem on X-Box 360s from more places than this article. If a "majority" are okay, it doesn't mean it's not a problem. If any systems are scratching disks then it's a risk. The question is, is it an *acceptable* disk? If just 5% of X-box 360s scratched disks so they became unplayable, then that's bad enough that Microsoft deserves more than just a black eye for it.

      Microsoft needs to acknowledge the problem, issue a statement on it, and offer to replace any affected X-box 360s *and games* with a minimum of fuss. The systems should be under warrenty at the moment so that shouldn't be a problem right now, but what about the games affected? And what if the problem only shows up after the system is out of the warrenty period?

      Didn't some rumors like this start floating around, something about failing optical drives, when the PS2 was released?

      • Re:Why all the bad press? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Indras ( 515472 ) * on Monday January 02, 2006 @10:12AM (#14378459)
        I've heard about the scratching problem on X-Box 360s from more places than this article. If a "majority" are okay, it doesn't mean it's not a problem. If any systems are scratching disks then it's a risk. The question is, is it an *acceptable* disk? If just 5% of X-box 360s scratched disks so they became unplayable, then that's bad enough that Microsoft deserves more than just a black eye for it.

        I can't help but make a comment on this. I repair machines in a plastics factory, we make parts for dashboards in various vehicles. For us, defective products are measured in PPM (and I'm sure it's the same across the industry). It's short for Parts Per Million.

        We have internal PPM - scratched parts, short shots, bad paint, etc., that are caught by the operators and quality inspectors before they leave the building. More importantly is external PPM - defective parts that we didn't catch, that made it out of the building to the customer site and were rejected and sent back. Naturally, this makes our customers angry and costs us a bundle (since we pay for shipping both ways).

        Just today I overheard a meeting between a line boss and his operators. He was ranting over how terrible our PPM scores were: Internal - 23,000 External - 151.

        Yes, that's 151 bad parts per million that we produced and sent out of our building. That's less than 0.02% defect rate. If our external PPM ever got over 1% for a particular department (1000 parts per million), it would not be surprising to see some operators and quality inspectors fired. In my plants, a 4-digit PPM is a capitol crime.

        Now, to hear that there may be 5% of XBox 360's that scratch discs makes me shudder. That's high enough for a full recall of all products while the issue was sorted out.

        I'm guessing that you were just making up a figure, but you picked a rather large one.

        • Re:Why all the bad press? (Score:5, Informative)

          by CMiYC ( 6473 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @10:50AM (#14378668) Homepage
          I'm guessing that you were just making up a figure, but you picked a rather large one.

          Consumer electronics has a failure rate between 3-5% (once in customer hands.)

          You are comparing two completely different industries. The complexity of a computer system (in this case a video game system) is far higher than plastic injected into a mold. My apologizes for simplifying a plastic dashboard to that extreme.

          Once an electronics product ships out the door, 1 transistor out of the millions inside the various chips can cause the entire system to fail. One solder ball out of the thousands can come loose during shipping and cause the entire system to fail. So no, 5% is not too large. It is industry standard for consumer electronics.
          • Consumer electronics has a failure rate between 3-5% (once in customer hands.)

            I'm not sure what study you pulled that from, but those sound to me like the failure rates in the first year, not the number that are defective out of the box.
    • You might not want to use that phrase. The problem isn't lessened when is just a few people experiencing it. That and the people I've heard use that phrase *cough*Congressmen!*clears throat* generally have something to hide or don't want you to think about when they say that.
    • What about posting a story about the majority of Xbox 360 users that don't have any problems, instead of the (vocal) small percentage who do?

      GAMES: 360 Disc Scratching Not Serious Problem For People Who Don't Experience The XBOX 360 Scratching Discs
    • What about posting a story about the majority of Xbox 360 users that don't have any problems, instead of the (vocal) small percentage who do? Or maybe a story about the fast turnaround time of Xbox 360 tech support? (5-7 days for a brand new / fixed console, for a friend of mine)

      I can honestly say that I have not had a single problem since I got my Xbox 360 on release day. (I am waiting on some games to push the hardware to its max, but that's a separate issue.)

      That sounds like a great idea. While we a

  • And here we see yet another reason... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by lxs ( 131946 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:30AM (#14378043)
    ...to wait at least a year after launch before buying a new console. In addition to the cost savings, a chance to check out the competition, and developers learning to fully use the power of the new system.
    • That has been my thinking. I have a regular XBOX and I won't even consider the new one until it has HD-DVD support. There is no point in me owning an HD-DVD player AND a console. My First Generation DVD player was replaced by my XBOX. I prefer to minimize my components and this is an obvious one. Finally, early-adopter headaches like what most people are seeing now won't affect me if I just wait and enjoy what I currently have.

  • Fair policy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:34AM (#14378055)
    All drives can do this when you turn them quickly during highspeed disc reading. It is the same thing that happens when you try to turn a spinning wheel from a cycle.

    People should learn not to move their hardware through various positions when using it.
    IMO, it's fair enough to request that the loaner replaces the damaged disc, if they are properly informed about it before they rent a game.

    -JaL
    • All drives can do this when you turn them quickly during highspeed disc reading. It is the same thing that happens when you try to turn a spinning wheel from a cycle.

      Maybe they should use the drive technology that portable CD players and Laptops use.

  • Yet another reason why.. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by codeTurtle ( 942468 ) <gemmaturtle AT gmail DOT com> on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:45AM (#14378076) Homepage
    ...I won't be getting a 360 til the end of it's lifecycle. It's clearly been rushed out for release to get a perceived edge over Sony (and to a lesser extent, Ninendo). I think that this means that the PS3 and the Revolution will end up being much more rounded, robust consoles - Sony and Nintendo know they're not going to be first to market, so they can afford to spend a little more time getting the consoles right. Plus hopefully there'll actually be a decent number of games available at launch... ;)

  • it's getting harder and harder... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by BillGod ( 639198 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:49AM (#14378091)
    In these days everyone is looking for any reason to bash the giant. Make jokes and poke fun. I have been a Microsoft user since DOS 3. I have been telling people for years that most of what they hear is just hype and to ignore it. I can't seem to find it in me anymore to stick up for them. None of my computers are running IE anymore due to a 6 hour virus removal fiasco. And there is no way in hell I will purchase an xbox 360 for my house any time soon. My son keeps begging me for one. How do you explain to an 11 year old that it sucks now.. but may get better by next year?
    • I really don't get why people think they need to stick up for some software or product. I use IE, and firefox and opera, I'm not a fanboi of either and I feel the need to defend some company's software if someone does not like it. If you don't like the xbox don't buy it, I bet you probably don't even have one anyways. Don't worry I don't have one either, but the reason I don't is because it costs 500$.. and I don't have a TV..

    • Re:it's getting harder and harder... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rbochan ( 827946 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @10:13AM (#14378472) Homepage
      ...How do you explain to an 11 year old that it sucks now.. but may get better by next year?

      You go out and get a baseball and a couple of mitts, and take him to the park and have a catch.

  • Call be doubtful, but... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @08:54AM (#14378101)
    You're telling me that there are not only enough Xbox 360s out there, but there are enough of those 360 owners that are also GameFly subscribers and that enough of those people who have both a 360 and a GameFly subscription also have a disk-eating machine that they instituted this new policy specifically for 360 games?

    That's what, six people?

    If anything, this policy is a continuation of a standing policy for all consoles, and they probably deal with far more disk-eating PS2s than disk-eating 360s, simply because of the installed base.

    And before I'm accused of being a Microsoft apologist, I am a foaming-at-the-mouth Nintendo fanboy who would only get an Xbox 360 for Final Fantasy XI.

    • If anything, this policy is a continuation of a standing policy for all consoles, and they probably deal with far more disk-eating PS2s than disk-eating 360s, simply because of the installed base.

      Yeah, but the fact that they'll clear your 360 request queue and the fact that the machine has only been out 2 months makes this a big deal. Already there are folks reporting various levels of both abuse and non-abuse noticing the circular gouges on their game discs. Microsoft is of course tight-lipped about t

  • If I only had the chance to scratch disks with an XBOX 360! I can't find one for sale anywhere. All I can find are the games and accessories. I would pretty pissed if I owned a company that made the games and accessories because no one can use them them due to the lack of XBOX 360s for sale. Which sounds like if Gamefly is issuing a bulletin on scratched disks, its a big problem for them given the small population of users they have with 360s.

    I don't know if Microsoft is trying to hype the 360 or they are

  • easy fix... (Score:5, Funny)

    by gfanboy ( 937770 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @09:16AM (#14378188)
    MS should just remove their slash code

  • My sources tell me... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gamorck ( 151734 ) <jaylittle AT jaylittle DOT com> on Monday January 02, 2006 @09:17AM (#14378196) Homepage
    My sources tell me that the discs get scratched when people decide to change the orientation of their XBOX 360 while this disc is spinning. So lets say that they have a game in the XBOX 360, they hit pause and suddenly decide, "I don't like how this thing looks horizontal, let me sit it vertically and see how it looks". During that transition, the spinning disc will actually collide with the tray and cause extreme damage to the disc rendering it useless. Oh and there is also a loud grinding noise.

    Anybody stupid enough to damage their game this way probably deserves to pay for the replacement fee as it is. This information has been relayed to me and confirmed by a regional manager at Gamestop and given the number of stores he manages, I'm quite willing to take his word for it.
    • 2 months ago someone kicked over my PS2, knocking it from vertical to horizontal with force. It knocked it around enough that the console never worked quite right again. However, when I replaced the console the disk was still perfect. Now, my case might have been a freak occurance but tell me this: why can they make CD walkmen that can handle being used by joggers without scratching the disk but Micro$oft with all their funds can't make a console that can be moved from vertical to horizontal without scra
      • When your PS2 was knocked over, was the disc spinning at the time? It is my understanding that the 360 keeps the disc spinning most of the time. I don't remember the PS2 doing that....
      • Read up a few posts. Guy knocked his over and both the console and the disc made it just fine.

        It knocked it around enough that the console never worked quite right again.
        but Micro$oft with all their funds can't make a console that can be moved from vertical to horizontal without scratching the disk?

        Doesn't sound like Sony did too well in the department either, heh, if the console never worked quite right again...

        -everphilski-

      • Re:My sources tell me... (Score:4, Informative)

        by LightForce3 ( 450105 ) <[moc.oohay] [ta] [3ecrofthgil]> on Monday January 02, 2006 @10:57AM (#14378707) Homepage
        CD Walkmans are much less likely to scratch CDs because the CD is held in place parallel to the disc tray. When you push the CD onto the spindle, the little nubs at the top of the spindle hold it in place. Laptop optical drives work the same way.

        AFAIK, tray-loading optical drives (like those in PCs and game consoles) only have a taller conical spindle and something to apply a little pressure to hold the disc in place. I'm not familiar with the internal workings of tray-loading optical drives, so I can't say for sure. However it works, it's obviously not very effective. ;)
    • No. You never own the media, only a license. They should be replaced no charge. Thank RIAA!

  • How about a nice RTFM.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Keruo ( 771880 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @09:18AM (#14378203)
    The console manual quite clearly states that "do not move the console while it's operating a disc".
    If someone managed to wreck their rented disc, all they can blaim is themselves, and pay the repair fee.
    Some home insurances might even compensate the destroyed disc, if you claimed it as an accident.
    • You are assuming that the physical media is within specifications and that the drive is also properly aligned and balanced. I wouldn't automatically blame the end user. How good is the quality control at Microsoft's parts suppliers and assembly plants? They used a bunch of flakey DVD drives in the original Xbox.

    • Home owner's insurance? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by infinite9 ( 319274 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @11:56AM (#14379022)
      Some home insurances might even compensate the destroyed disc, if you claimed it as an accident.

      Kids, don't try this at home. Filing a home owner's insurance claim over a $50 game is just plain stupid. Depending on the insurance company's policy, they may count actual dollar amounts, or number of claims. But if you get enough of either or both, you run the risk of getting black-listed. Basically, the insurance company happily pays your claim, then drops you next year. When you go to find new home owner's insurance, every company will ask if you've been dropped in the last five years. Since saying no is fraud, you have to say yes. And they turn you down. No one will give you home owner's insurance. But your mortgage company requires it. So when you can't get it, you're force-placed, meaning the mortgage company goes out and buys a policy for you, then charges you for it. Can you guess how much that will cost compared to your current insurance? File a home owner's insurance claim when your house burns down, or when a drunk driver crashes through the wall and into your living room, or when a hurricane tears the roof off and it rains in your bedroom, not for stupid stuff like this.

  • disc condoms (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Unknown_monkey ( 938642 )
    COMPUsa has a solution that I can't find the link to right now. It's a condom for the CD, a clear cover that goes over the data side of the disk to protect it. YMMV as I have not tried it yet. But I think that when I get a X360 I'll buy them just to improve my scratch resistance and to have something else to blame when my X360 crashes.


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  • Content or media? (Score:3, Informative)

    by nurb432 ( 527695 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @09:24AM (#14378223) Homepage Journal
    So what are we buying/renting here? The content or the media?

    Sounds like a double standard here.. where the consumer gets screwed no matter what.
  • Why can't they just stick to vinyl?

  • It's not just the xbox360... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Rihahn ( 879725 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @10:48AM (#14378657)
    It seems to me that, somewhere along the line, CD/DVD media moguls discovered that if they make the plastic softer people have to buy more CD/DVD media when it scratches. I mean, compare a CDR from the store today to a CDR from ten years ago... They're night and day as far as the plastics are concerned.

    I guess it all boils down to the fact that the old CD advertising line of "Lasts forever!" is simply bad for business.

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @12:05PM (#14379072)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • This happened on my PS2 (Score:4, Interesting)

    by ZekeSMZ ( 874386 ) on Monday January 02, 2006 @02:10PM (#14379842)
    I was one of those fools who waiting in line at 5 in the morning to be the first to get my hands on a PS2. I was lucky enough to procure one, and after a week of playing it - my Tekken Tag Team and SSX discs had circular scratches around them and were unplayable. I didn't move my PS2 while the drive was spinning - the machine just ate the discs.

    Hopefully Microsoft will be a lot better about handling these repairs.

    Initially, Sony wanted to charge me nearly 100 bucks for the privelege of them diagnosing the problem. (even though the machine was underwarantee). A few letters later, combined with multiple calls to the Better Business Bureau - Sony capitulated, repaired my PS2 and replaced my games.

    The only downside is that when I got the game discs back in the mail, they all contained rootkits ;-)

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