MMOGs and Sandbox-Style Play 113
An anonymous reader writes "Why do so few games truly embrace the sandbox metaphor? The folks at GamersWithJobs have their own opinions, and think that MMOGs may be replacing The Sims as the center of the 'emergent gameplay' movement. From the article: 'I don't know if it's a function of age, or experience or perhaps just changing tastes, but my favorite games are increasingly the ones where I can find my own methods of play. I loved that Dead Rising simply gave me a maul, a chainsaw and an army of zombies. Perhaps my love of MMOs is as much related to the opportunity to explore and adventure on my own as any actual construction of gameplay.'"
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Most of us never played knight in shining armor off to rescue the princes; cops and robbers; or tag since we were kids, yet we play Mario and FF; Need for Speed and GTA; and Super Smash Bros as adults.
Funny thing how so many of us are just kids at heart and we're loving it. Peter Pan rocks.
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Ah, to be a kid again... I'll never forget the look on Billy's face when I used a Downward Smash Attack to spike him off of the cafeteria roof, then yelled, "Tag!"
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"princes"
I don't remember rescuing any princes.
:)
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So, typo or not? (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't decide if this is a typo or not. I know it takes place in a MALL, as in a shopping center, but I haven't played the game, so I'm a little short on details. I know it's known for giving you a wide variety of weapons, but is a MAUL, as in a large two-handed warhammer, one of them? Or does any large impromptu bludgeoning device count? Is this a typo, a clever play on words, or an unintended pun?
Re:So, typo or not? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmmmm..
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Re:So, typo or not? (Score:5, Funny)
Absolutely.
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One of my favorite monsters from Munchkin was the Maul Rat...
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Star Wars: Galaxies (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Star Wars: Galaxies (Score:5, Funny)
In other news, poster also describes the Grand Canyon is a "ditch", and the the act of drawing the Virgo Supercluster through a trillion light-year section of buckytube as "suck".
I, for one, welcome our understated overlords.
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Well, you were on Tatooine.
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I totally agree. I still miss the crafting system that was in place in the original game - I haven't heard of anything that has come close to that, yet.
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It is the most sandbox-y MMO I have played yet, with multiple of ways to play it. From trader in high security areas to pirate in the interstellar outback, everything is possible (note that the latter is quite dangerous thanks to open PvP).
Disclaimer: I have never played Star Wars: Galaxies, so I cannot offer a direct comparison.
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Sandboxes aren't fun (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Sandboxes aren't fun (Score:4, Insightful)
Clearly, there are many gamers who are still interested in this style of play.
Of course, the author of the article is an idiot for comparing The Sims to Dead Rising.
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A truer example of a sandbox might be Sim City.
GTA is the poster-child for a sandbox game (Score:3, Informative)
I don't want to get into a deep discussion of the differences between "sandbox" and "playground" games, but I did want to point out that in the gaming culture and industry, Grand Theft Auto is often referred to the poster-child of sandbox gaming [wikipedia.org]. You may not agre
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In both of those games you could do anything you wanted for the entire game, or you could progress the story. I personally love this. Sure I end up progressing the story the vast majority of the time, but if I'm bored I can hop into Oblivion, run around a
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When I think of a 'sandbox', I think more of something like Second Life. There really is no 'finish' or 'goals'/'quests'/etc in that game. It just dumps you in and expec
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For those who are interested in a sandbox MMORPG, the one I'm waiting for is called Darkfall. http://www.darkfal [darkfallonline.com]
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My brother recently responded to a post on their forums which claimed that solo-play would be impossible because hardcore gamers would form guilds and control everything, ruthlessly hunting down people on their lands who did not bow to their whims.
Apparently Darkfall takes place in a space about the size of Germany. Even if Darkfall had 8 million players and half of those 4 million were dedicated policemen for The Noble Guild of 1337 h4x0|2z, you still wouldn't be abl
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The "main quest" is really more just the biggest quest. You can do a million different quests; that ones just the biggest and best. Personally, I've yet to pay any attenti
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I've 'beaten' the game (as in completed the main quest, all the faction quests, the deadric quests, plundered all the dungeons, and as far as I know I've found all the side quests - I'll need to
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There's a reason actual sandboxes are only enjoyed by small children. The freedom to do whatever you want can be liberating and exhilarating, but only if you've been confined, and only unti
Sandboxes still need direction (Score:5, Insightful)
One reason why GTA is so popular as a sandbox game is because you DO have a storyline to go through. You can choose to finish the next objective/mission
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Now what do I do as far as goals? Well, I have basically two favorites that have
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How, then, would you explain the raging success of "The Sims"?
I think the important point is that sandboxes *alone* are not fun. You need the right tools/content available. "The Sims" had them. There probably hasn't been an MMO yet that was comparably equipped.
Re:Sandboxes aren't fun (Score:4, Funny)
Which is, of course, why The Sims, the ultimate sandbox game, has been a catastrophic financial failure. I have no idea why they keep releasing more expansions into that money pit.
I pity the companies that invested in games with strong sandbox components like Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, The Elder Scrolls: Oblivian, and Simcity. Those poor fools are just throwing good money after bad.
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What's worse - the article or the summary? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's interesting that he should mention The Sims, MMOs, and sandbox gameplay in the same article. The Sims Online - a game EA has practically shoved under the rug - was a miserable failure, despite a preexisting Sims fanbase and mainstream coverage from the likes of TIME. Don't get me wrong: I like sandbox games as much as the author. But The Sims Online was an uninspired grindfest that required you to perform insultingly repetitive tasks to "level up" your Sim. EA might've finally changed this since I quit, though I doubt it.
I find the popular MMOs (WoW, Guild Wars) to be incredibly restrictive and linear. Ya, I can wonder around a gameworld, but I can barely impact how it functions or really do what I want.
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Ook. Maybe I need to rethink this...
go outside (Score:3, Informative)
They have that. It's called real life.
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Owning corporations, multi-million dollar penthouse apartments in New York and Paris, and hillside mansions in California, with gorgeous uberbabes lying around your built-in pool sucks?
I think you mean the PHAT LOOT is much harder to come by because real life isn't set on "don't hurt me daddy" difficulty level.
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Yeah, but I heard that the monthly service fees are like way over a hundred bucks.
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2. How do you know you can't reroll?
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Well, even if you can reroll you have to play through the first 18 years again before you can do anything cool.
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The solution is to drop all pretence at being a realistic fully rendered 3D world. To do the game you are describing, you need to switch to 2D, or even a text based game, but it can be done. I found it very easy to add new careers, gamepla
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- You could play a dragon in addition to the regular classes and races. A dragon would take over 2 years to get to full strength, but when they did, they'd be an even match for any other 3 maxed out characters. A dragon would build a lair and assemble a horde of loot, and this would attract adventurers (these other chars) to try to come take it from you.
- Like City of Heroes, it was to have full, true 3D movement. Many races could fly, and by fly, I don't mean just hover a
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Seriously, read some of the information about Horizons from the pre-blackout era if you can find it. You'll salivate, and wonder what the fuck happened, and why nobody is doing it today.
Actually, If you followed Vanguard throught it's development you'd have at least part of the answer to your question. So much of what was being pitched sounded so much like early Horizons. Right down to each races putting down their diferences to fight an encroaching army of undead, and regrouping in a rebuilt capital of
Dead Rising...? (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems to me that a good Sandbox type of game--let's take Morrowind or GTA for popular examples--would give you more or less as much time as you like to complete the "story" or "objective" missions, and then have a whole bunch of stuff to just play around with/in. Even if it makes perfect, logical sense to have a strict time limit, that doesn't necessarily mean that it must be done. In fact, I'd think that works strongly against the Sandbox motif--if I want to just dick around in the game for a while--go gain a couple levels or snoop around for useful loot--I shouldn't have to sacrifice the rest of my current play-through.
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Well, you can play through the 72-hour timed game (which takes about 6 real-life hours), with no objective requirements, unless you want to see the "story". There is an option to unlock an untimed mode where you play as long as you want.
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Sandbox Life (Score:2)
While I don't disagree that Sim-type games are fundamentally different, I don't see how mods for something like Morrowind don't count via your parameters. Is that because they're not actually part of the "game" itself and are instead included in an outside package? Or is it because the modding tools aren't the point of the game? If that's the case, then I point to NWN, which was billed as something of a DM's Playset. That latter one doesn't even
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It really isn't that hard to understand. With Oblivion, GTA, etc. you're given a setting in which you have to function. You don't get to design your own city or castle, you don't get to create NPCs and stick them in the game, etc., unless you go outside what comes with the game and install third-party modifi
Sandbox vs Storyline (Score:3, Interesting)
I've played A Tale in the Desert [atitd.com] and its a decent game. No combat, and arguably a bit of a sandbox-style game. You can basically do whatever you want within the limits of the game, but there are objectives and goals as well. The most rewarding aspect is working with fellow players in a guild to advance in the game. In the end, though, I don't feel the game offers anything beyond a little enjoyment. It isn't engaging enough for me to justify paying the subscription price.
I've also played quite a bit of EVE Online. Now there's a bit of a storyline to EVE, but the general goal of playing as far as I can tell is either to get really rich, really powerful, or both. As you progress in skills and equipment there can be some great fun fighting battles with your teammates to protect territory you have claimed as your own. But in the end for me it suffers the same fate as ATITD, it doesn't offer anything beyond a little enjoyment. It isn't engaging enough for me to justify paying the subscription price.
What I'd like to see rather than "sandbox" style games where you can be anything you want to be are games where what players do have a direct impact on the game world. Picture, if you will, a game that actually evolves beyond adding features. I'm not much of a visionary, but I'll try to put this forward to illustrate what I'm trying to explain: Now that's a game I would play, something where what I and what others around me do actually affect the game world in a significant way. Imagine a WWII style game where if your armies run around gold-mining instead of fighting towards a common goal the Third Reich actually does take over Europe and now you're behind the eight ball. Imagine in that game a real chain of command based on a democratic system where those at the top actually lay out strategies and plans for invasion, defense, disruption of enemy supply lines, etc. Imagine your enemy suddenly doesn't get that shipment of ammunition before you stage an offensive. Imagine being that enemy and suddenly being up shit creek and trying to scramble reinforcements. Imagine decision makers having to decide which engagement is more valuable and which victory can be sacrificed.
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real or no real (Score:4, Interesting)
It could be a function of age... as you get older, you realize that life itself is a kind of 'sandbox game' where you make your own path, and set your own goals within a larger pre-existing system. So having a game where you can approach it with your same day-to-day mindset, but also run down zombies with a jeep, makes sense in its appeal.
Important premise (Score:3, Interesting)
A system will continue to run when the rules are broken. A game ends when the rules are broken. Many games don't end suddenly when the rules are no longer followed but, rather, they begin to repeat themselves and become quite predictable and, thus, boring.
Good games are few and far between: one of the reasons why chess is timeless. It has rules, they cannot be broken, yet people still play it.
Football, basketball, volleyball, soccer, etc. are arguably not games as the rules have been slowly evolving. They are systems. Systems tend to persist longer than games.
The conceptual difference between the two is very important. Society is a system, constantly evolving, and it is both conscious and subconscious, both behavioral and psychological, both learned and inherited.
On rare occasion one will find a "game" which can be turned into a system. My favorite was "Pirates!" on my Amiga 500. I played it through once or twice by the script and then continued to play it for months with the only goal in mind to maintain a "notorious" reputation with all four nations while still sailing, docking, trading, and plundering wherever I pleased.
Exodus: Ultima III was another good system (excellent music on the C=64, as well). Most f4ntasy adventure games could be made into systems.
Expansion packs are very important parts of games because they allow the original game engine to be expanded, making it closer to a system. I've found that games which have confined maps tend to wear out more quickly--another reason for expansion packs.
Some guys play with their nuts. Other guys play with their car alarms.
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What exactly are you talking about? Re: Chess, see: Go. As for chess or those sports games, the rules don't /during/ the games, and the changing of rules between games is not /part/ of the game in any w
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See Pole Chess, Huffdraw, Resignation, Castling, En Passant, etc.
There are many variations on the rules, but as the prior poster said, once the game begins the rules are set (except in chaos chess, where a rule can be invoked during the game and becomes part of the game from there on as long as it doesn't conflict with a prior rule).
Realtime physics is a big win (Score:5, Interesting)
Given an MMO with greater interactivity than the typical "run, click, watch animation" style, there are a lot of fun things you could do. A fine example of emergent gameplay within a very simple system, from my childhood playing the NES, was the game River City Ransom, which had just enough physics that two players could invent mini sports to play using the objects lying around, like baseball using a pipe and a rock, or a crude form of soccer by kicking a trash can around the map. There's an elemental simplicity to this that transcends the games of stat manipulation (decorated with pretty scenery and storylines) that RPGs typically offer.
If it sounds like I'm ragging on WoW, it's only because I'd rather be playing an MMO version of a game like Zelda.
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I highly recommend playing Ultima 7, or UO if you want to interact with the world.
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That's too bad. There really hasn't been anything like it in the seven years or so since it started being crap. How many MMORPGs have even a half-assed form of player housing, one of the most popular features of UO? There are various ways to prevent the urban sprawl that happened in UO.
See, that's my problem with Oblivion. It's chock-full of *stuff*, some of it very good (the Dark Br
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Building up your character isn't much fun, since there are so few skills to choose from.
Doubly so given the scaling on monster difficulties, particularly if (as I did) you made poor choices in designing your character such that as you advance the monsters get more difficult. I stopped playing the game for ages just due to this demotivating me.
Isn't that a little crazy? There's less dialogue, but that's okay, because they wanted everything to be voice-acted. The NPCs do stupid things and engage each other in the same conversations over and over again, which breaks the suspension of disbelief, but it's cool because it's "Radiant AI".
And don't forget how they will switch between two or possibly three accents/voices in one conversation. :)
I'll admit I am to some extent suckered in by the gorgeous outdoor graphics, and at this point maybe I just have lowered expectations for thes
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Completely agreed!
Nasarius what you're alluding to is what game designers call "map density."
People commonly think a larger world is better, but that is counter intuitive! It's much easier to make a smaller world more interesting, because you've reduced the player's "transit" time before they are engaged. In a big world, you have to populate the world with MORE "interesting things"
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Cat got my tongue (Score:1)
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Sid Meier said it best... (Score:5, Insightful)
If the player is bored, or is there is dead time (I'm looking at you WoW Designers and your stupid flight path times), your game play is BROKEN. People are not playing games to be bored -- they are playing to be entertained. All good games take fact of the "natural game play" cycle. In Halo it was shoot, rest, shoot rest. MMO's same pattern: Attack, Camp, Attack, Camp. Even turn-based games, computer or board games (Chess, MtG), have this cycle, of where you "interact with the world", and then you wait to see the outcome.
This is what makes DnD so great -- no dead time. The DM controls the pacing. (It stinks in other areas, but it got this fundamental, down pat.)
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Games complaining about how a game is unrealistic is missing the point -- it's about whether the game is
a) believable, b) consistent, and c) logical
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If the DM needs a bio break, chances are, everyone else can take one too.
And if you really have to go, it's not that big of deal to have one of your buddies control your character for a min or two. (If you don't trust them, why are you playing with them?
Re:Sid Meier said it best... (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing I hate are the zepplins/ships/trams. Those are freaking irritating. You have to be there both when they come to pick you up, and when you arrive at the destination, and they are just long enough in coming that it is really annoying to miss them. I want to be able to just stand on the platform, have it pick me up when the zep arrives, and drop me off when it reaches my destination. Forcing me to sit there and do nothing is what is really obnoxious. When nothing happens, but it happens automatically, that's fine by me.
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A co-worker of mine plays SWG and he can't believe that us WoW players put up with such unbelievable 'transit' times.
In SWG, he mentioned that people had to wait 10+ minutes (think it was for 'elevators'), and enough people 'bitched' so they were shorted down to 5 minutes. People complained again about the 'long waiting', and now it is down to 30 secs to a minute. The funny thing, people are still complaining about the "long delay"
I *really* wi
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You're looking at it backwards. Competitive people are less likely to take breaks, regardless of what actual advantage this gives them. WoW addicts in general are likely to ignore the needs of their biological bodies, so this is Bliz's method of forcing downtime on players such that they have little to do or think about other than their soon-
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You have to eat sometime.
Sadly the Sandbox is a Dying Style of Game Design (Score:4, Insightful)
Or so it seems to me. There are very few sandbox style games out there these days in MMORPG land. I think this stems from most players lacking the imagination to take on an open world and find their own entertainment, probably because their prefered gameplay styles have evolved on other games and that shapes their preferences - although generalizations of that sort are naturally quite dangerous and notoriously unreliable. I am sure most people dislike sandbox games to whatever degree for a variety of reasons. I see less in the way of open ended game designs these days though, and most seem to feature some pretty heavy handed guidance for players to ensure they travel down the right (limited number of ) rails on their pass through the game.
Of course, the population of gamers who prefer to really Roleplay in game seems to also be dwindling. This may be a factor in the decline of the Sandbox game as well. Its only natural for those who prefer to engage in roleplaying to want to pop into a Sandbox environment, rub their hands together and say "Ok, now what shall we do first?". More traditional gamers who don't associate as directly with their characters are much more likely to approach the game from a Gamer perspective, and thus view it as a series of obstacles to be overcome, or perhaps a series of goals to be achieved, and set about resolving those as efficiently as possible. This probably ties into Bartle's MUD personality survey, which suggests there are 4 types of MUD gameplayers: Explorers, Achievers, Socializers and Killers. Roleplayers of course fall heavily on the Explorer and Socializer side of things. I think most standard gamers, coming from other types of gameplay will tend to fall into the Acheiver and Killer sides of things since those are emphacized more heavily in most computer and console games.
Star Wars Galaxies used to be the one of the best examples of a true Sandbox game in its original iteration. It has undergone 2 major revisions to its game mechanics, and each one in turn has reduced the "sandboxy" elements of the gameplay considerably. The current iteration - the so-called New Game Enhancement - is the least sandbox like game design I have ever seen, and the only vestiges of sandbox gameplay are those elements of the game that have not yet been revamped. The game is also all but dead as a result of these changes. Ultima Online is of course the granddaddy of MMORPGs effectively, and it, along with Asheron's Call and Everquest, were all more or less Sandboxy in design. All have also more or less fallen by the wayside these days.
New MMORPG offerings tend to be more linear, more structured, more quest-based and often link leveling of characters to elements of the game in a manner they need not have chosen to do. For instance in Warcraft a person interested primarily in crafting, is also forced to level up their character in combat, since crafting level is linked to character level for some reason. This is the antithesis of sandbox design. Dungeons & Dragons Online is almost entirely quest based, as are City of Heroes/City of Villains (where we can replace the word quest with mission), and most other games currently on the market.
Many of course offer a bit of both. The now venerable Dark Age of Camelot offers accelerated advancement in levels by either hunting or doing quests or instanced missions - mostly this is an attempt to let people get to the end game faster and thus retain subscribers I am sure. This game is also sadly dying, although the next offering from Mythic (Warhammer Online) will no doubt build on the successes of DAOC.
Vanguard Saga of Heroes is a modern Sandbox game, although it does offer questing as well. You can take up Crafting or Diplomacy and progress in those areas independant of your character's combat level. Its a very promising game, although it has high end equipment requirements
The flexbility of sandbox gaming is perhaps not structured enough for most individuals.
Re:Sadly the Sandbox is a Dying Style of Game Desi (Score:1)
Want to change the game world? (Score:1, Interesting)
Some
Open gameplay (Score:4, Interesting)
Lets look at some examples that best explain what I mean:
Games which did it best:
Deus Ex
- Awesome game for many, many reasons, but relevant is the fact that you could approach each problem from many directions - two guards ahead - you can sneak past them using the vents (classic) you can go in guns blazing, you can set up some sort of proximity mine (gas/explosive) you can take control of nearby robots/turrets) you can tranquilise them, you can knock them out, you can find another way to go. Likewise, the way you create your character, you can dump all skillpoints into pistols, or rifles or you can put all your points into engineering/hacking and you can still finish the game. All styles of play are valid - you kill all the terrorists in the first level for example and your peacenik brother tells you off for killing too many people but the cops are cheering you on. Kill no one in that level and your brother praises you but the cops tell you off for being a peacenik.
Morrowind
- Huge game with incredible aesthetic value of art, flavour and atmosphere, lots to do and a ton of add on quests to expand it further. However, numerous ways to create and play your character open up the possibilities of actual, real re-playing. You can play a stealthy rogue or a rapid direct damage spell caster, or a demon-summoner or an armoured knight or any weird combination of these! You can catch on-rails transport or you can make ring of jumping or ring of flying or cast these spells yourself. The list goes on and on. If you play this game once and just charge everything with the biggest sword, you're missing out - there are many ways to play and finish this game! There is a kinda famous example of some guy that kept making intelligence potions to boost his int till he became so intelligent he could make potions to make himself invincible - yeah, borderline-bug exploit, but goes to show that even a lowly alchemist can make it in this world.
FarCry
- Yes, it is a pretty simple 1st person shooter. You can't bribe your way past the guards, effectively roleplay a "git off my lawn" druid or an evil knife wielding hacker. However, what this game did quite well was having huge open areas with plenty of cover for the player to approach most areas in any way they want. For example, there is a camp full of mercenaries up a head. It has some sniper towers, some guys in tents/buildings, alarm, radio that can call in for helicopter and two fixed position miniguns. You might need a vehicle from that camp, or a keycard, etc. Now this is where the fun starts: you can ride in your car blasting everyone. Or you can use a silenced gun and slowly creep through the camp taking people out 1 or 2 at a time from behind before they can fire a shot. Or you can sneak up into one of the sniper towers and take people out from there. Or you can get up on a nearby hill and sniper or rocket from there. Or you can fire some shots from one direction, run into the forest, run around the camp, then do the same thing from opposite direction, taking a few people out every time. Or you can drag all the mercs into the forest, taking them out as they are chasing you through the trees. Or you can run into the camp and take one of the miniguns and start mowing down everyone. Or find a boat and do bombardment from the nearby river! Or a combination of any of these! Then the helicopter with reinforcements arrives and you have many choices again, from shooting it down yourself to taking up one of the fixed miniguns, etc
Almost made it:
GTA-SA
- A lot of missions were basically "use this car, with this gun, to go on these streets, do not deviate"
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In Far Cry I'd redo the same encounters just to see what result I'd get compared to the others. Can I use cover and manage with only a handgun? Can I take the boat and assault the beach from afar? Grand Theft Auto didn't have so much of this for me. Taking a different road generally doesn't matter, and handi-capping with worse cars is still via the same app
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FarCry is one of my favorite FPS for single-player. Devilishly tricky in places, but it gave you lots of ways to approach situations. You could even shake off your pursuers if there was enough cover around that you could hide in. Not to mention the ever-present supply of rocks that you could throw to distract the AI.
One fun way to clear out the dock area at the end of an early mission where you're trying to meet up with the doctor: Take out the rocket-shooting bugger on the hilltop tower. The
Just my thoughts (Score:2, Insightful)
Sandbox games run the risk of lacking too much in structure to be considered games at all. Some will say that's the point-to lack structure-overlooking that others want (maybe need) structure. They want to be told, more or less, what they need to do in order to "win." Winning may be reaching the top level or getting a certain amount of in-game property, or whatever. Point is, if I can do anything I may decide that there nothing to do and leave. Like have 500 channels and saying "There's nothing on."
A game
Wait, what? (Score:2)
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WoW is solo-able (Score:3, Insightful)
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "the whole game", but you can certainly solo from level 1 to 70 in World of Warcraft. I'm not talking about just grinding endlessly on mobs either. There are plenty of quests that can be done solo, across all the different classes. Granted, some classes may have it easier than others, bu
City of Heroes/City of Villains (Score:2)
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