An Evening With Sony Computer Entertainment

Thursday evening, senior Sony representatives such as Phil Harrison (President of Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios) and David Karraker (Head of SCEA's PR division) sat down with the posters from a bunch of websites, looking to ease relations between the company and their customers. Along with folks from The San Jose Mercury News, Joystiq, Kotaku, and MTV, we discussed a number of the issues raised in the comments here on Slashdot the day before yesterday. My goal in going to the event was to make sure that your concerns were heard. Over the last several months, I've heard many complaints leveled against Sony and their products, and I was hoping to bring back some answers. To be honest, I walked away not fully satisfied. Read on for answers to some of the criticisms you, the readers, have leveled against Sony in the last several months.

I took notes, but a lot of ground was covered, and not all of it was probably of interest. To give you a sense of context, we were all gathered around a large table in a hotel just off of Union Square. The event was held in the early evening, and lasted for approximately two hours. While everyone was certainly civil, there were a number of tough questions passed around. Here is what I felt was most important to you folks:

• A goodly amount of the discussion centered around Sony's newly announced Home project. The dangers of allowing uploadable content were raised, and we were assured that PSN parental controls will be fully in place within the game world. There will be a few quick button options to black out the screen (in case of offensive images) and to kill the audio (in case of offensive language). Public spaces will be moderated (and instanced, if you're curious), though they were a bit vague on just how those individuals would work economically. They're still working out the details.
• I was intrigued on Wednesday (as were a number of readers) by the possibility of indie games in the Arcade rooms they showed off. Phil Harrison responded by saying that it is something they're very interested in. Originally, all of the games were going to be done in Java but technical problems arose. The games are now done in C. If they can wrap up the tools in an easy package, they'd be very happy to release them and allow community-created games onto the service.
• Revenue for the service will be handled via object sales, advertising, and b2b elements in vendor areas. Those concerned about the 'amount of free' that you'll get as an intro Home user should know that they're hoping to offer a fair amount off the bat. 'Free' includes a basic apartment, access to the public spaces, a 'reasonable' number of avatar customization options, and a 'starter' set of furniture. Better views out your window will be purchasable, along with new apartments.
• Everyone from Sony in the room heavily resisted comparisons to Second Life, and other services. In Mr. Harrison's words "That would be heavily oversimplifying both Home and Second Life." Along the lines of hacking the service to allow Second Life-style sexual animations, the reps were fairly confident that they'd dodge that bullet. The service itself doesn't allow avatar touching, and doesn't currently have emotes that approximate those actions. They eventually hope to have 100% of online-connected users on the service. Currently, the number of online connected PS3's is somewhere around 500,000 in NA; roughly 50% of the North American consoles.
• Right now the download is around 450 megs, but that's going to probably shrink and grow over the course of development.
• The subject of Sony's arrogant public demeanor was broached, as well as the poor public relations message we've been getting in the last several months. The ThreeSpeech blog was broached, and the folks in the room actually clarified the purpose and reality behind the 'semi-official' blog. ThreeSpeech is actually a European entity, intended to be a public forum in which Sony-related matters can be discussed and information can be brought to the public's attention. The people behind ThreeSpeech are some of the most respected games journalists in the UK; it would be like if a US version of the site were staffed by the likes of CNN's Chris Morris, and man-of-many-talents Geoff Keighley. Because UK gamers know and trust the ThreeSpeech staff, there's an implicit understanding (in that country) that the message coming from the site is not 'tainted.' It was pointed out the lack of attribution to posts across the site is a barrier to acceptance, and they took that under advisement. For the most part, it seems, the bad reputation that ThreeSpeech here in the states seems to be a case of cultural misunderstanding. While I still don't like the term 'semi-official', I did feel as though the concept behind the site made a great deal more sense to me after this chat. Some of the other attendees were not as reassured.
• The element that I want to convey, which I took away from the discussion of Sony's arrogance, was that arrogance is not the feeling I get from them in person. These people are, instead, supremely confident in their products and services. Thanks to the impersonal nature of quotes and the numerous (rightly decried) public relations gaffes they've suffered, their confidence can easily be seen as arrogance by third party information consumers. This is not to say the company on the whole is not arrogant; I just want to make it clear the people I was in the same room with Thursday night did not have the attitude of inherently arrogant individuals.
• This discussion went on to include the question of the PS3's pricetag, which was a subject never fully addressed to my satisfaction. There was some talk of the PS3 as a lifestyle, and the still-important question of why Blu-ray technology is necessary. Peripherals such as the EyeToy were mentioned as 'making the PS3 disappear from the equation', which given the cost of the system seemed to be a poor choice of words. Not much of substance resulted from the Sony 'side of the table' on this subject, and that attitude left me feeling a bit frustrated. The system's cost won't be changing for some time now, and there's apparently not much to talk about on that subject. This was the one element that I went into the session hoping to deal with directly, and unfortunately came away feeling let down.
• As a final note, it was stated directly that "There is no direct evidence that Blu-Ray has been hacked." Their attitude is that the encryption is strong, and that it will be a long time before it's cracked.

I came away from the meeting with a sense of cautious optimism. To be sure, any time you put a personality to a face and media quotations you'll be more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think it's human nature to empathize with people that we've met with in person; I hope that you'll view the above with that in mind. Just the same, the folks that spoke for Sony yesterday honestly seemed like passionate businessmen with an interest in making a good product. I certainly don't think that one good press conference and a well-attended meeting can undo the public relations nightmare of the last six months, but (as I said on Wednesday) it does give me cause for hope. Assuming that the company keeps its nose clean through the European launch, it's possible the games arm of this particular megacorporation may have put its launch troubles in the rear-view mirror.

Asked why did they fuck up Star Wars Galaxies ?

[unity100]

critisizms in the past months ? They are fucking up customers for over 3 years in star wars galaxies. Not only that, but they are fucking up entire star wars fan community as well. Ask them why.

Re:Asked why did they fuck up Star Wars Galaxies ?

[Joe U]

Unfortunately, this is not SOE, this is SCE. Sony Online Entertainment is the company currently fucking up the following games:

Everquest
Everquest 2
Everquest in space (SWG)
Everquest in computer (Matrix)
Everquest in space with less content (Planetside)
Everquest alpha .5 (Vanguard)
Non EQ related filler (Stationpass)

Re:

[Lightwarrior]

> Everquest in space with less content (Planetside)

FYI: that's humorous, but inaccurate. Planetside neither takes place in space, nor does it really follow the EQ formula at all. It's a FPS, for one.

-lw

Re:

[Joe U]

I was going for humor. I actually play PS now and then. It's a fun game, but like all SOE games, it suffers from SOEitis.

Sony, would it kill you to design a new base layout once a year? Or balance the game (yea good luck).

Re:

[Kohath]

Because SWG was a failure? SWG was a huge flop from day one.

It was a long time ago. Consider getting over it eventually.

Re:

[unity100]

Sony has an unblemished record for customer-fucking in areas ranging from consumer products to computer games.

Re:

[nuzak]

The way I've heard it: "The day you don't get fucked by Sony is the day they make Sybians."

Supremely Confident?

[drinkypoo]

This is not to say the company on the whole is not arrogant; I just want to make it clear the people I was in the same room with Thursday night did not have the attitude of inherently arrogant individuals.

Is there actually a difference between arrogance, and being supremely confident when you have no reason to be?

Arrogant: "making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud"

Why yes, yes that does sound like practically everything we've heard from anyone influential at sony regarding, well, anything that's come out since the Playstation. Playstation 2 was supposed to be the god box, the supercomputer. It fell DRAMATICALLY short of the announced specifications. Playstation 3 is too cheap. PSP is a fantastic value and UMDs are highly desirable. Blah blah blah.

Re:

[drinkypoo]

"It fell DRAMATICALLY short of the announced specifications."

Wait, let me guess...you were about to make the claim about how Sony said 'teh PS2 has teh Toy Story Graphics" AND THEY LIED!

No, I'm talking about the bogus specifications that they released about a year prior to the sale of the PS2 that claimed that it would be able to push about ten times the number of polys that it could actually handle when it was released. But I guess you're too young to remember that.

Re:

[Rycross]

It really could push that many polys.... if the polys were untransformed, untextured polys, and you devoted 100% of the system to just pushing polys. I remember having Gamestop employees quoting figures of something like 50 million polys for me, and marvelling that people were falling for such obvious marketing crap. Same with the "more bits is better!!!" rage in the SNES days.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Feel free to quote what number and a link to the claim directly made from someone from Sony.

And keep in mind that:

1. I have multiple PS2 titles sitting right now on the shelves that I have worked on

2. I am sitting right next to a PS2 Tool and the complete set of Sony developer docs

3. I have personally run my own rendering code on this very Tool that pumps out ~55 million flat shaded tris a second

4. Any reasonably competent PS2 developer has or can do the very same as 3.

There was only one company that lied a

Re:

[Rycross]

You're taking hyperbole too literally.

As far as overpromising, its not that they did that so much as massage the numbers. What they said was technically accurate. Like the 50 million poly figure. Sure it was accurate.... if you had polys with basically no processing, no sound running, no game logic running, etc.

A single PS2 didn't have supercomputer level of floating point performance. After all, a supercomputer built the same time as the PS2 could outperform my PC built 2 years ago, which definately ou

Re:

[drinkypoo]

So basically, what I'm getting at is that Sony didn't really lie, iirc. They were simply creative with their figures. Which, in all honesty, isn't that rare of a thing in this industry.

What? IIRC means "If I Recall Correctly" and what you mean to say is IMO or "In My Opinion" because while you do remember correctly, in my book, those are lies.

It's lying to say that your system will be able to support games with that number of polygons. Because it can't. You can make a demo with almost that number of plain

Re:

[Rycross]

My point is that I don't remember Sony ever saying that the PS2 was a supercomputer. I remember a lot of other people saying that, and a lot of it was ridiculous. They did quote the 55 million polys, but I don't recall them ever saying you can make a game with it. Yes, it was slimy in my opinion. And I was pretty sore about it because I was a big Dreamcast fan. It wasn't technically lying because I don't think they ever claimed you could make a full game with 55 million polys, just push that number out

Re:

[nexex]

Didn't the whole PS2 is a super-computer come about from export restrictions?

Re:

[Rycross]

Yes, thats what I remember. I don't ever recall Sony themselves calling it a supercomputer. I believe what happened was, there was some rumors about laws to ban exports to certain countries because people thought they would be used to fire missiles or some such nonsense.

Re:

[king-manic]

You forget that everybody else was using the same lie. X machine can push X polys *. Look at the advertising from sega that mentioned it's specs or xbox. It's all "ideal" numbers. Intel / AMD / IBM / Apple is guity of this when specifying specs. They give highly idealized numbers.

* only unlit, unshaded, untextured, and for 3s on tues feb 6, 2001

Re:

[MaverickUW]

Actually no they weren't. If you remember, when Sony and Microsoft were in the arena of 75 million polys or more, Nintendo was laughed at when they said the gamecube could only push about 12 million. The difference was Nintendo was counting an in-game situation, with the full 8 layer texturing that the gamecube naturally allowed. So while the PS2's poly count was supposedly 6 times higher than Nintendo's, Nintendo was considered to be a close 2nd to the X-box in terms of graphical power, with the PS2 bei

Re:

[king-manic]

Actually no they weren't. If you remember, when Sony and Microsoft were in the arena of 75 million polys or more, Nintendo was laughed at when they said the gamecube could only push about 12 million. The difference was Nintendo was counting an in-game situation, with the full 8 layer texturing that the gamecube naturally allowed. So while the PS2's poly count was supposedly 6 times higher than Nintendo's, Nintendo was considered to be a close 2nd to the X-box in terms of graphical power, with the PS2 being

Re:

[MaverickUW]

except you missed my point. Nintendo promised 1/6th the poly's that the PS2 or X-box did, because Nintendo even said that they were giving counts in in-game situations. And this is when Nintendo kept up with the graphics whoring to a decent extent. most places the Gamecube put out at least 12 mil poly's in actual games (two of the games regarded as the best looking of last generation were on the gamecube and fit this bill), whereas no game on PS2 or X-box got close to it's projections.

Nintendo did not us

Re:

[king-manic]

Nintendo did give a more honest number. My point was Sony is not unique by giving idealized numbers. It happens when ever the marketing dept in a company beleive their consumers have the IQ of your average fanboy. It's a pity they're right so often.

Confidence, not arrogance?

[AbsoluteXyro]

I don't care how confident those people are, PR folks have got to put at least a LITTLE thought into what they are saying and how it will be interpreted. Quotes like "$600 is too cheap!" don't sound remotely like a statement of confidence on paper.

Re:

[Rycross]

No its not. PS3s are widely available on store shelves, so clearly supply at least meets demand. What this mean is that $600 is probably a good estimate of the value current consumers place on the system. If there were any inaccuracies, it would be that the system is too expensive, since obviously supply >= demand at this point (and lower demand = lower supply).

Re:

[ucblockhead]

Actually, it's not a matter of whether PS3s are widely available on store shelves. Sony obviously wants there always to be a PS3 on a store shelf whenever a customer attempts to buy one. It is a matter of how long those PS3s are sitting on those shelves. Are they sitting there for months, or are the stores running out the same day the next shipment arrives?

As an example, if you go to a supermarket, you will almost certainly find milk. This does not mean that the supply of milk exceeds the demand. This

Re:

[Rycross]

It does have a bearing because if you can find them on shelves, then clearly supply >= demand. If demand outstrips supply, then you have shortages where people are unable to find them, like with the Wii. It doesn't matter for our purposes if they're sitting there for a week or for a day. Since we can find them at any time, that means that supply >= demand, which means that, best case scenario, the Playstation 3 is exactly the price it should be. Worst-case scenario is that it needs to be cheaper.

O

Re:

[Rycross]

We're not talking about demand, we're talking about price. Consoles sitting on shelves means demand roughly equals supply. Scarcity means that demand exceeds supply. Supply matching demand (consoles sitting on shelves) means that the price is greater than or equal to the optimal price. Try to keep up, moron.

I don't care about supply and demand

[LKM]

$600 IS too cheap if demand and supply are balanced.

As a consumer, I don't care about supply and demand. The PS3 isn't food or oil or water. It's a toy. I don't need it. I only care about one thing: Is this toy worth 600 bucks to me?

And it's definitely not. 300 bucks, maybe. More? Forget it.

If Sony really intends to price this based on demand, they'll end up pissing off both early adopters and latecomers. That would be a seriously bad move. And it's probably not what Sony is doing. This thing costs 60

Blu-Ray comments

[Anonymous Coward]

As a final note, it was stated directly that "There is no direct evidence that Blu-Ray has been hacked.

I wouldn't expect them to say otherwise. If they admitted that Blu-Ray was in any way flawed, the non-Sony content providers would be much slower to adopt the standard (if at all).

Re:

[Goaway]

They are right. It hasn't been hacked, and it is still exactly as strong as it was thought to be when it was launched.

Keys have been leaked, but this was expected to happen and the system is designed to be able to deal with this.

Re:Blu-Ray comments

[Rycross]

They're probably referring to the keys being discovered. [engadget.com]

Sony just doesn't seem to "get" it...

[pla]

Peripherals such as the EyeToy were mentioned as 'making the PS3 disappear from the equation'

Ummm... How does an overpriced and underutilized webcam accessory accomplish that? And what does that have to do with the price of the base system?



The system's cost won't be changing for some time now

Then neither will the sales figures.



They eventually hope to have 100% of online-connected users on the service

Sony, Microsoft, and even Nintendo need to understand something...

A lot, probably even the majority, of casual gamers, don't want the whole live/home/online "experience". We want to pop in a game and waste a few hours to unwind between getting home from work/school and having dinner.

I don't care if the world knows how much I rock (or suck) at the newest games. I don't want trinkets and scenery and furniture for a virtual apartment. I don't want to spend time doing anything beyond slaying dragons, drag-racing through densely populated urban areas, slappin' hos, and getting the little colored blocks lines up just right so they go "bleep" and vanish.

My style of gaming doesn't fit Sony's ideal revenue model. Too bad - Give me what I want, or you don't get any revenue from me.



arrogance is not the feeling I get from them in person. These people are, instead, supremely confident in their products and services.

Trying to tell people what they want to buy doesn't count as confident. It counts as arrogance.

People generally have some sense of shame and humility, and in live meeting, few people will come off as truly arrogant. That doesn't make the company itself any less so.

I'll repeat myself - Give me what I want, or you don't get any revenue from me. If Sony responds to that by trying to explain to me why I really want what they have, you have arrogance, not confidence.

Re:

[feepness]

I'll repeat myself - Give me what I want, or you don't get any revenue from me.

Someone mark this as informative. I keep buying shit I don't want and it's getting really old.

Re:Sony just doesn't seem to "get" it...

[ucblockhead]

"Then neither will the sales figures."

FYI: The PS3 has sold slightly more units then the XBOX 360 sold in its first three months [vgcharts.org].

I find the rest of your comment confusing...you are mad because they're giving you a casual gaming environment in addition to the more traditional big blockbuster game model. I didn't see anything about a requirement that you use "PS3 Home" to play all games. Seems to me that you can just not download "PS3 Home" and "pop in a game and waste a few hours to unwind". Seems to me that if all you want to do is "slap hos", you can just buy GTA4 when it comes out and ignore the whole "online experience"

Does it occur to you that perhaps they want to appeal to a variety of different markets? Does it occur to you that perhaps they want to give different consumers different things, and that perhaps they are attempting to use multiple revenue models to support different sorts of costumers?

Seems to me that they showed a shiny new toy you can have for free, but only if you want and you said "OMFG! YOU FUCKING BASTARDS! I DON'T WANT THAT SO YOU SUCK!" It's like screaming that Toyata sucks because they make SUVs and you want a hatchback hybrid.

Re:

[CorSci81]

Actually, being the same sort of gamer as the OP, the real issue comes down to "Why would I pay more for product X which has features I don't use when I can get just what I want from product Y for less?" It's all well and good for the PS3 to appeal to the "hardcore" gamer, but as a casual gamer, I can't see any reason why I'd want to pay an extra $350 for a PS3 with a ton of features I won't use when a Wii can provide me with a quick hour of gaming here and there.

Does it occur to you that perhaps they wan

Que?

[Spad]

Because UK gamers know and trust the ThreeSpeech staff, there's an implicit understanding (in that country) that the message coming from the site is not 'tainted.'

Being from the UK I must have missed that bit - I'm not entirely sure how "cultural differences" mean that I somehow trust a Sony puppet blog more than someone from the US would.

price FUD

[codyk]

I really don't understand why people go on and on about the PS3's price.

It retails for $499 usd

Not $700, not $800, not whatever other made-up numbers people use (although yes, europe got screwed here as usual).
What do you get for that price?

$800 worth of hardware.

Hardware that no other console has. Hdmi, standard high capacity optical drive, user replaceable hard drive, in a package that has had essentially no manufacturing defects.
Yeah, its expensive, but it's a lot of machine for the money. I

Re:

[HappySqurriel]

I really don't understand why people go on and on about the PS3's price.

It retails for $499 usd

Not $700, not $800, not whatever other made-up numbers people use (although yes, europe got screwed here as usual).
What do you get for that price?

$800 worth of hardware.

Hardware that no other console has. Hdmi, standard high capacity optical drive, user replaceable hard drive, in a package that has had essentially no manufacturing defects.
Yeah, its expensive, but it's a lot of machine for the money. If you don't w

Re:price FUD

[drinkypoo]

Hardware that no other console has. Hdmi, standard high capacity optical drive, user replaceable hard drive, in a package that has had essentially no manufacturing defects.

Oh man, where to start, where to start. HDMI? This provides very little advantage over component connections, and as most people on this planet have NO HDTV, let alone one with HDMI, this is pretty irrelevant.

User replacable hard drive, that's a nice touch. But 99% of everyone doesn't give a shit.

No manufacturing defects? tee hee hee. There's been overheating issues and the HDMI timeout issue. That's not strictly sony's fault, but it is their responsibility to test their device with the most common output devices, and this is something they clearly did not do.

Yeah, its expensive, but it's a lot of machine for the money. If you don't want to pay for it, don't buy it, but stop acting like sony owes you a cheaper machine.

Anyway it's not worth anything like $800 to me. For one, I don't want or need blu-ray. Its primary effect is making games more expensive. I don't have an HDTV and probably won't have one any time soon because they are seriously fucking expensive, at least anything worth owning. I'm not going to buy some 720p shit unless it's incredibly cheap. And 1080p definitely isn't cheap.

You can argue that we should all unlimber our wallets if we want what they have. But ultimately, Sony is a corporation, SCE is a company or collection thereof, and if they want people's money, they're going to have to give them what they want. They are not selling what most people want, which is why the Wii is flying off shelves within hours of when it shows up on them, but you can buy a PS3 almost anywhere, in spite of the fact that there's been significantly more Wiis actually produced.

Sony is trying to force us into supporting Blu-Ray, and I'm not interested. Not that I would give those assholes at Sony any money after rootkits and destroying Lik-Sang, among other faux pas.

Re:

[Jarlsberg]

Oh man, where to start, where to start. HDMI? This provides very little advantage over component connections, and as most people on this planet have NO HDTV, let alone one with HDMI, this is pretty irrelevant.

I don't know if this is just the Slashdot segment, but this argument keeps popping up. I've got two HD-TVs, and all of my friends have got HD-TVs. They're getting inexpensive, and you rarely see SD-TVs advertised for sale anymore.

Re:

[CorSci81]

I work for a company where most of us make a pretty good income, and I'm in the minority of people who own HDTVs. The vast majority of people don't have them in the US.

Re:

[drinkypoo]

Arguing that an HDTV plug has no use on a regular TV is pointless.

That's why I didn't make that argument.

User replacable hard drive, that's a nice touch. But 99% of everyone doesn't give a shit.

I doubt that - do you think 99% of Xbox360 owners with an HDD are perfectly happy to be stuck at 20GB?

Yes. Next question?

There is no overheating issue, you pulled that out of your arse.

I've read reports of it overheating when on top of a stack of components. You're right - it's not a manufacturing issue.

Re:

[slackmaster2000]

The 20GB model without cables or controllers is $499. Most of the extremely basic packages you'll find at the big retailers like Walmart and Circuit City will start at $725 or higher (connection cables, one controller, one game). Nobody is making up numbers, they're just saying what they're seeing at the store.

Contrast that with the XBox 360, which starts at $399 for the "premium" package. If you're at Walmart or someplace like that you're going to see premium packages with two controllers and a game at

Re:

[slackmaster2000]

Only if you approach it from that particular angle. If you look at this from the point of view of a guy who's trying to convince his wife to let him purchase an extremely expensive 'video game player', then you're going to be asked why you *need* to pay that extra $200. :)

Re:

[eison]

You forgot: 4) Has more than one game you might want to play

Re:

[bugnuts]

Consider this awesome aspect of the PS3 [ibm.com] and watch the /. sony haters heads splode. Cheapest Cell you can get your grubby fingers on.

Re:

[king-manic]

Although I have a PS3 and think it's worht the money. The Cell isn't that special. It's a parreleism monster for very specific functions. If you have a problem that can be solved this way then it's awesome. The rest of us have a video game machien that plays blu-ray movies.

Re:

[Bluesman]

I don't understand the vitriol for the PS3 here on /.

It's the first home computer since the Commodore 64 that you can hook up to your TV and hack on.

There are even articles showing you how.

It's like I've come full circle.

Re:

[Rycross]

The vitriol mainly revolves around the way Sony has been acting. Of course the price doesn't help either.

Re:

[Jarlsberg]

It's just the Slashdot groupthink. They'll find someone else to hate in a few months. ;)

Re:

[CronoCloud]

No, the PS2 did it before the PS3, remember the Linux kit?

Re:

[king-manic]

As an added note:

in canada the price of the 20gb PS3($599) is close to the launch price of the PS2 after adjusting for inflation ($526.33). Part of the price difference in the Us is a weak US dollar compared to the Yen(JP)/Yaun(CN). They pay for parts and labour in yen.

Re:

[king-manic]

The European market frequently gets anal rapings from everybody on almost eveyrthing. The ps2 was £299 at launch. that be £310.96 after inflation and that'd be $703.55 CND. Just compare gas it's $0.93CND/liter here while it's ~$3.00CND/liter.

Consoles are often 20%-40% more and often due to import taxes, regional faxes, vat taxes, import tarrifs, etc.. which often are not transparent.

Re:

[cowscows]

I could spend millions of dollars to design and build a machine that would dig 20 miles into the surface of the earth, bring up a single piece of rock from that depth, and then destroy the digging machine so that no more rocks could be retrieved. In some sense that rock would be worth a fortune, because it was collected at great expense and was part of a project that makes it a one-of-a-kind item. On the other hand, I'd have a hard time convincing an average person to give me $5 for it, because hey, it's a

Re:

[king-manic]

That's a bit of an extreme example, but it's important to remember that value is relative. The stuff inside a PS3 might be worth $800 to them, and worth $800 to you, and that's great. But to me a pile of silicon and plastic and metal has very little intrinsic value, regardless of how well it's organized or how great other people think it is. A game console on the other hand, has its value created by the games it is capable of playing. I have seen very little software for the PS3 that would convince me it wa

Re:

[cowscows]

$800 is what the grandparent comment said was the value of the hardware in the PS3.

His point was that he feels like he's getting $800 worth of stuff for only $600. My point was that nothing that the PS3 currently offers is worth $500, much less $800 to me.

I hope you're enjoying your PS3. Motorstorm looks interesting.

Re:

[king-manic]

I got my $699 worth. I now have a web browser and a linux machine on my 50" HD LCD. I can play some snazzy over priced blu ray movies. I have a replacement for my seriously aging SNES/NES (eventually) and a PS1/PS2. My umm special movie collection also looks good! I'd say thats worth $699 to me.

Re:

[Jartan]

Hardware that no other console has. Hdmi

It's just like the difference between VGA and DVI. It's a nice little bonus feature at best.

standard high capacity optical drive

This is the one I understand the least. Was there something wrong with a DVD drive? Developers are often struggling already to find a use for a single DVD disc. Is something horrible going to happen to you if you have to switch to disc 2 after playing final fantasy 13 for 60 hours?

Value? Sure. Too expensive? Absolutely.

[Namarrgon]

Sony subsidises the hardware, as do the other manufacturers. Value for money is not at issue, and never was.

The only question is, how much is a PS3 worth to you, right now? Those that want a cheap Blu-Ray player + two decent games and have $700 to spare, can buy it today and feel happy if they want. Those of us who are accustomed to paying no more than a $300 entry fee for a games platform will probably want to wait, regardless of what else is thrown in.

Personally, I'm not big on paying extra for "poten

So who are these "respected uk journalists"..?

[WarwickRyan]

..as threespeech doesn't seem to have any details?

There aren't exactly a large number of journos that'd be respected, so I guess the lack of identification is because they're all employed on one of Sony's various "Official" magazines?

Zonk, call a spade a spade.

[Lightwarrior]

This will probably come across as trollish, but this is a serious question - Zonk, what is your love for Sony / the PS3?

"Sony Keynote Offers Hope For PlayStation 3 Fans"
"Today was Sony's day to deliver: and in my opinion they did with flying colours."
"Finally, finally, there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel for the console."
"Note the first: There may finally be a great reason to buy a PlayStation."
"Your avatar is customizable, and extremely detailed. These is *not* Miis, these are better than Second Life quality digital characters."
"[Little Big Planet] is the reason to buy PlayStation 3." (bolded)

And from this op-ed:
"The element that I want to convey, which I took away from the discussion of Sony's arrogance, was that arrogance is not the feeling I get from them in person. These people are, instead, supremely confident in their products and services."
"I came away from the meeting with a sense of cautious optimism."
"...it's possible the games arm of this particular megacorporation may have put its launch troubles in the rear-view mirror."

Maybe it's just my view of things, but everything *sounds* sugar-coated. Your (Sony) article(s) read more like hype than unbiased reporting.

It's fine if you're personally excited about what goes on, but I think in the interest of full disclosure, you need to say *why* you're so interested. I don't own a PS3; I have seen nothing in these recent articles to indicate, to me, that Sony has taken any steps to change their ways. And yet, you repeatedly say that this is the case.

Why? Because they're implementing a Sony-branded Second Life rip-off? Because of one good game? Because they put their best personal face forward during one meeting?

We've seen this exact pattern before, from a number of companies: nicely worded "promises". Pretty ideas. Friendly faces. The reality of it from Sony has been, consistently, lies and dashed hope. Does meeting these people face-to-face really make you want to forgive and forget so easily?

-lw

Re:

[drinkypoo]

You know, perhaps you should consider the possibility that Zonk is simply a Sony fanboy. I mean, he's an editor, not a journalist. Not that he actually edits, but you get what I mean. Just think of every post from a slashdot insider as one of those opinion-piece "letters from the editor". But I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that. At least he is predictable. We know he will cuddle up to Sony no matter how abusive they are, and that means that we know how to read his articles.

Re:

[Rycross]

Wasn't he being called a huge XBox fanboy just a little bit back? He was regularly accused of only posting anti-Sony pro-MS/pro-Nintendo stuff. Has he turned sides, or is he just calling them like he sees them?

Re:

[drinkypoo]

Zonk has often times posted news about Sony that makes apology for their idiocy, and in any case to avoid being branded at utterly biased he more or less has to post comments talking about the things they do wrong. I don't actually know which he is, because I don't care. :) I like the news no matter what the spin is; I can read between the lines for myself, I don't need someone to do it for me.

Re:

[king-manic]

Before a few days ago, Zonk was rabidly anti-PS3. I mean rabidly. Any story about sony beign dumb or Ps3 being bad was on the games section. I don't think zonk is a fanboy.

Re:Zonk, call a spade a spade.

[BarneyL]

One of the greatest achievements an editor can make is to be accused of being biased by all sides of an argument.

From what I read on /. Zonk is an xbox, wii and ps3 fanboy and so must be well placed to provide a balanced view...

(and as a Wii owner who would just love to see the ps3 do so badly all those nice looking exclusives come over to Nintendo, I have to admit this is the first thing I've seen from Sony regarding the PS3 which gives me the impression the it might still be a success)

Re:

[Kohath]

Zonk spent a long time bashing Sony -- posting every bit of "news" where Sony looked bad, even when it wasn't news or it was completely made up. This is balance.

Basically, instead of being misled by negative hype about Sony, now you're being misled by positive hype. That's the modern definition of news.

Sounds like Sony won the GDC.

[kinglink]

Coming in to GDC Sony is in a hard last place in a lot of ways, yet apparently at this talk it sounds like a huge amount of the time is spent on Home, that's a huge win. Avoiding talking about the Blu-ray, price and games for the most part and talking up their new Home is good. Let's forget that GDC is about developers rather then the press, and the fact that they have taken the first steps to turning GDC into the next E3.

But from the sound of this they really got away with something at GDC this year, and kudos for them, too bad most of us are already too jaded to turn back and most developers still find the system a hassle even with this new item. Overall though it sounds like a huge win for Sony at least this week.

Backwards attitude

[eison]

Did you ask them why they hate their customers? That's what I really want to understand.

Kotaku's balls

[FleaPlus]

As was reported on slashdot a few days ago, Kotaku was "blackballed" by Sony for reporting on rumors about Sony Home. Even though Sony and Kotaku are back on speaking terms now, the following is quite amusing:

http://kotaku.com/gaming/oddities/gdc07-warhawk-de v-hands-me-my-balls-242974.php [kotaku.com]

GDC07: Warhawk Dev Hands Me My Balls

There was this moment, just seconds after I sat down between Phil Harrison and David Karraker, when the entire table of bloggers, PR people and developers at Sony's Blogger Congress were quiet.

Then Dylan Jobe, Warhawk game director for Incognito, spoke up.

"Before we get started, I have something for Brian."

I noticed Jobe had a small box on the table in front of him. He is a big fan of Kotaku and was impressed with what the site did last week over the whole Sony Home dealio.

So he said he wanted to give me a present to thank me. Opening the box he revealed: A set of brass balls.

Sony? Baloney!

[Whuffo]

After personal experience with one too many Sony CD drives (computer, home stereo, clock radio) that died before their time - but not before the warranty expired, my attitude about Sony started to change. Not better-than-average equipment, just more shoddy Asian electronic crap.

Then - as promised by their leadership ("we'll firewall it at the PC!") they embedded a rootkit on music CDs. This criminal act, followed by their arrogant defense of this action, proved to me that they are nothing more than the lo

Blu-Ray thing really does baffle me

[goldcd]

I don't seem to have noticed any great consumer demand for the console to come bundled with a HiDef drive. The games don't need it (not noticed many 2 disk 360 games anyway) - and as one of the main advantages I see for the PS3 over the 360 is the use of the hard drive to spool in games AND all machines having a hard drive - if they did need more space, they could've just put a data DVD to put on the drive and a Boot DVD to shove in the PS3 in the case and been done with it.
The BluRay drive is in the PS3 a

Totally wrong in your assumption of business men

[blanks]

"Just the same, the folks that spoke for Sony yesterday honestly seemed like passionate businessmen with an interest in making a good product"

No, Sony could give a crap less about making a good product, just like they could give a crap less about making a good movie, music, game, hardware, software or ANYTHING.

If they make a good anything it's simply a BYPRODUCT of trying to make money, which is all sony has ever cared about.

Re:

[stratjakt]

What do you mean subjects us to? I've heard of this site, but was never any way forced to see it.

So they tried a really lame advertising campaign, and it backfired. I don't get all the indignation and nerd-rage over it, like they violated your rights or something.

I don't get the anger or hostility in general. I think the PS3 is overpriced and kind of dumb, so I just dont buy one. Maybe one day I will, but I have no strong personal feelings towards it one way or another. It's just a consumer product, and

Re:

[drinkypoo]

I don't get the anger or hostility in general. I think the PS3 is overpriced and kind of dumb, so I just dont buy one. Maybe one day I will, but I have no strong personal feelings towards it one way or another. It's just a consumer product, and not something I in any way need.

So you are not a hardcore gamer. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact it is probably the more healthy way to be (and I say this, of course, as a gamer myself.)

But if you are among the 'core, then you have to understa

Re:

[oGMo]

But if you are among the 'core, then you have to understand that Sony is pure fucking evil.

Preface: I have 2x NES, SNES, N64, Cube; GBA, SP x2, DS Lite; Dreamcast; 2x PS2, 1 PS2/Slim (gave my PS1 away); 2x PSP; and a PS3. I will be getting a Wii as soon as Paper Mario hits, maybe sooner. I have a solid selection of the best games for all of the above platforms, and I've played (if not finished) just about every SNES and NES game worth playing. I grew up when Atari and Nintendo were big, and am as happ

Re:No questions about the fake PSP fan site?

[Rycross]

Lik-Sang was sued because they sold PSPs in Europe, not mod-chips. The lawsuits (plural) absolutely were bullshit.

Re:

[drinkypoo]

Care to explain how a company that delivered two massively successful consoles each with a huge library of excellent games is a "big turd"?

I was referring to the saying "big turd in a little bowl", which refers to someone who thinks they are better than they are. Which describes them nicely. However, the bowl is anything but little.

Also, they are definitely a bunch of shits. Just the way they treat their customers is wrong.

And how does Sony/BMG's contractor have anything to do with Sony Computer Entertai

What happened to Lik Sang

[LKM]

I don't have time to find references for the other stuff you ask (and if you can't remember the fake polygon claims which both Sony and Microsoft released, you're not much of a gamer), but this is just plain wrong:

If Lik-Sang failed because they couldn't sell modchips in the UK, then they had more issues than Sony.

Not being able to sell modchips in the UK is not what killed Lik Sang. Lik Sang was not able to defend against multiple lawsuits started by Sony all over Europe [kotaku.com] and was thus forced to go out of business.

They never had a chance to defend themselves because Sony started so many lawsuits that they could not afford fighting them, even if they had a chance of winning. I don't care what you think, that's just plain evil.

Re:What happened to Lik Sang

[LKM]

When the PS2 came out, Sony was bragging about how it can can push 66 million polygons per second (reference [cyberiapc.com]). When the Cube came out, the specs Nintendo released were a fraction of that (12 million polygons per second, reference [iexbeta.com]). So gamers everywhere thought the PS2 would simply own the Cube hardware-wise. Problem was, Sony lied. They implied that games could push that amount polygons, when in reality, the PS2 could only display that many polygons if they were untextured, unshaded, and if the PS2 did nothing else but display them.

I have no idea why you are even trying to dispute this.

Furthermore, the closing of Lik-Sang had nothing to do with Mod chips, at least directly. Sony didn't sue over Mod chips. They sued because Lik-Sang was importing Sony hardware from Japan. From Lik-Sang themselves: [lik-sang.com]

Lik-Sang.com, the popular gaming retailer from Hong Kong, has today announced that it is forced to close down due to multiple legal actions brought against it by Sony Computer Entertainment Europe Limited and Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. Sony claimed that Lik-Sang infringed its trade marks, copyright and registered design rights by selling Sony PSP consoles from Asia to European customers

Do you have any clue or do you just reply because you like to insult others by implying that things only happened in their heads?

Re:No questions about the fake PSP fan site?

[buffer-overflowed]

Preface: I have 2x NES, SNES, N64, Cube; GBA, SP x2, DS Lite; Dreamcast; 2x PS2, 1 PS2/Slim (gave my PS1 away); 2x PSP; and a PS3. I will be getting a Wii as soon as Paper Mario hits, maybe sooner. I have a solid selection of the best games for all of the above platforms, and I've played (if not finished) just about every SNES and NES game worth playing. I grew up when Atari and Nintendo were big, and am as happy to play an 8-bit game as an HD next-gen game. If that's not "'core", or whatever you kids are calling it, then you're the one with the weaker definition.

Alright, cards on the table time. For some oddly contrived reason you are faced with a choice as to which company: Sony or Nintendo, is allowed to have ever existed in the gaming market. Which would you choose? I can tell you that as someone with a similar background(although I don't own a PSP or a PS3), I'd choose Nintendo, because Sony just doesn't matter as much.

That said, you have no clue if you think Sony is "evil". Nor is Nintendo "evil" anymore; whether this is by necessity or choice is irrelevant. The only thing that killed the Dreamcast was Sega's business prowess. Substandard manufacturing, terrible marketing, and making lots of bad choices along the way. I would much rather see them as the third competitor in the console race than Microsoft (because Microsoft is ongoingly evil), but that's not going to happen soon.

Order of evilness today: Microsoft > Sony > Nintendo
Order of evilness in the late 80s/early 90s: Nintendo > Microsoft > Sony

Except then Nintendo was never really horrible to their customers. The worst thing they ever did was set up those Nintendo authorized repair centers and charge a bit too much for repairs related to the design decision of making the NES load like a VCR. Sony and Microsoft have been comparitively horrible to their customers, especially in recent memory.

Care to explain how a company that delivered two massively successful consoles each with a huge library of excellent games is a "big turd"?

Gah, I hate statements like that. It's stealing credit from Capcom, Konami, Square Enix, Atlus, Take 2, EA, and every third party who made great games and apportioning it to Sony for some fucked up reason. Sony didn't make the playstation, the third parties did.

Because almost none of those games are in-house games. Had Sony not been around, they would've been made for the Gamecube or N64 or Dreamcast or XBox. One of the things I truly hate Sony for is their idiotic fanbase. Mainly because they gave me shit for the better part of a decade for daring to enjoy games with color in them. And they'll also criticize the fuck out of a Nintendo title, while praising another titles that's exactly as derivative of the original Nintendo title.

And how does Sony/BMG's contractor have anything to do with Sony Computer Entertainment, which is an entirely different---physical and businessological--- subsidiary?

Sony media calls the shots within Sony proper. Plus, *always* hold a corporate entity as a whole responsible for the actions of their subsidiaries. If you hate phillip morris, you shouldn't buy Kraft food products.

If Lik-Sang failed because they couldn't sell modchips in the UK, then they had more issues than Sony.

Lik-Sang got knocked out by Sony suing them in dozens of territories for importing PSPs before the release date.

Your anger and hatred is misplaced, and more related to a $499-599 pricetag than any real, tangible, logical reason.

Maybe his is, mine isn't. My anger is placed at the credit-stealing, attention whoring, and sheer arrogance of the company and it's fanbase. I don't want to be associated with playstation fans. I don't want to be associated with Sony. They're fucking thieving scum, and maybe you're ok with that but I prefer to reward the guys who come up with and push the concepts rather than the guy who comes in later, mocks an idea only to copy it and tweak it a tad, then declares it his innovation. Sony needs to be put into their place like Nintendo was. The only way to do that is to not buy the thing until that has occured.

Re:

[macshome]

they definitely committed grievous harm to sales of the Dreamcast by making an early announcement of bogus PS2 specs which they had to know were fraudulent

Care to share a link to a credible reference?

My thought too. Even though I would hear 13 year old kids in EB badmouthing the DC before the launch, it still managed to have (At that time.) the biggest launch in history and hit 1 million units faster than any other console.

To all the morons who would say, "I can't afford both and the PS2 will be better." I would reply that if they couldn't save a few hundred dollars in a year then they probably shouldn't get either and concentrate on things like buying food.

Re:

[nuzak]

they definitely committed grievous harm to sales of the Dreamcast by making an early announcement of bogus PS2 specs which they had to know were fraudulent

Not to leap to Sony's defense or anything, but if all it took to destroy an existing console was a vaporware strike, Sega's marketers are some truly fragile wilting violets.

Re:

[king-manic]

But if you are among the 'core, then you have to understand that Sony is pure fucking evil.

If ya think sony is pure evil... you may want to go back to history class. Or english and find out what the word evil is. Sony has been dumb, has been over aggresive, has been a hype machine and under achiever but "evil" is a stretch. Or did I miss the news story where Cell chips are made from African Orphan brains?

Re:

[drinkypoo]

BTW Sega was in the dumpster already while they designed Dreamcast, you can't blame Sony for their failure.

No?

After Sega CD, 32X, and then Saturn, the hardcore gamers (me) realized Sega for what they were: a third rate company with third rate products. I bought a Dreamcast

So then why did you buy a Dreamcast?

on release day no less, but I knew it wouldn't succeed. The games weren't there, and it was obvious from Day 1 that they weren't coming.

That's funny. I have over 100 Dreamcast games. Given the conso

Re:Home Is Amazing

[stratjakt]

It's ok though, Wii is worth it if only for the first party titles.

Just like with N64 and Gamecube, there were plenty more shelves at EB stocking PSX, and then PS2 titles - but most of those are just filler crap. We're talking about dogshit like American Chopper: The Video Game.

I read an interesting article a while back about Nintendo's position and strategy as an innovative force. They continually try to invent new genre's, and capitilize as they grow, then leave them once mature. Sony and MSFT are focused solely on those mature genres. They'll deliver a very highly polished FPS, or racing game, etc, but wont risk something new.

Nintendo has to do this to stay in business, they focus on cheaper to develop games, and building new genres - the games usually have simplistic graphics, cutting down dev time, for example.

Consider the platformer - a genre nintendo largely defined with Super Mario Bros (and arguably invented with Donkey Kong), and redefined for 3D with Super Mario 64 - yet they currently have nothing in this market, it's too mature and full of competition. How many games would you consider a "Mario Kart" clone?

Sort of a tangent, but basically Nintendo doesn't need to be #1, and nintendo can survive some lack of support from third parties as long as they keep coming up with new stuff. Look at how the DS is taking off, against the PSP which I'm willing to admit is technically advanced. The "gimmick" of the touchscreen has opened whole new genre's of gaming - and this is the whole point of the wiimote.

If the wiimote spawns some successful new genres of videogaming, as it likely will, you'll see similar devices and plenty of clones of those games on Xbox and PS3. The genre will mature, get its rigid fanbase unopposed to change (there is no room for innovation in the FPS genre, the fans are too hardcore and will reject anything that isnt by-the-numbers), and Nintendo will move on.

They surely fail sometimes (Virtual Boy), but the fact that they are a company based on invention means they can keep going and succeed, where Sega failed miserably (Sega being merely another manufacturer, like Sony and MSFT).

Basically, they don't really compete with Sony and Microsoft at all. Sony and MSFT manufacture, Nintendo invents.

Home is a useless 3D chat room

[LKM]

Yeah, Nintendo is dragging its feet with the Wii online component. That sucks. But really, you act as if Home was the second coming or something. It's a 3D online chat room. Seriously, who cares about this? Why in the world would I want to go into Home to play an arcade game if I can just click on it on my Wii? Why would I want to sell games in this fake world instead of in the easy-to-use Wii shopping channel? It makes no sense.

Little Big World, however, that is something that excites me about the PS3.

Aw,

Re:

[Rycross]

I heard the same things about Second Life. I'll believe that it is going to become "huge" when I see it.

Re:

[jj00]

Not much they can do about it now, this was one of the reasons Microsoft wanted to get the 360 out so early. They had some time all alone by themselves, and time to let their lineup mature. There are so many systems out now that a game designer seems to shy away from an exclusive and tries to get on as many systems as possible.

My take is that Sony just has to own-up to what they have. Plug away at their own pace, try to get their games to really take advantage of the hardware and hope for something to

Microsoft isn't going to reduce their price

[fistfullast33l]

Not before Sony. It's simple business sense - if you're making money and selling well, why do you need to drop your price? Why increase the loss you have on your console? I don't see any need for Microsoft to drop their price any time soon. Sony will move first, and it won't be for a while. I'd stop holding onto the hope that a price drop is coming if I were you.

Sony gave Microsoft an relative price drop

[LKM]

I agree. I think somebody at Microsoft even plain said it after Sony announced the PS3's price: "We don't need to cut the price. Sony just gave us a price cut."

Re:

[_xeno_]

The OP may be been a bit unclear, but his subject line is right: if Sony doesn't drop the price, the PS3 will die. PlayStation Second Live won't be able to save it. (And sounds like the world's dumbest idea if you ask me: it's like Xbox Live, but harder and slower to use! Yay!)

I currently don't own any next-gen console. My current-gen console is a PS2. I'm probably going to pick up a Wii at some point and borrow some GameCube games. But when it comes to the Xbox 360 and the PS3, it comes down to two thing

Re:

[JoshJ]

Blu-ray wasn't hacked. The guy who did it implemented the actual specification. So it wasn't "hacked", it was "unpermissibly implemented."

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to gargle with some bleach to clean the marketroid speak out of my mouth.

The PS3 is not $700!

[fistfullast33l]

It's $599, after tax possibly $650. No way has it ever been $700.

I still think sales taxes are MORE EVIL THAN MAFIA

[cheekyboy]

Governments make money from payroll taxes, land taxes, landlords profits of rents through income taxes, taxes on shops sales profits.

Yet they still are GREEDY to take a cut of the final sale price, often MORE than the manufacturer's profit.

Most taxes are used to pay back govt debt, that NO ONE ASKED for. If they were not so irresponsible, then we wouldnt need
all these taxes. Why cannot governments make laws that require banks to lend to governments at 1% max rates.

Anyway, most smart people know 12-15% of al

Re:

[Andy_R]

He's actually 121 dollars too low, if you take the UK launch price of 425 GBP ($821 at today's exchange rate).

I really think they have given up on Europe, they might as well not launch at all at that price, and the only game I was really looking forward to (Gran Turismo 5) is now a 2008 release BEFORE the huge wait for a PAL version.

Re:

[Hott of the World]

Yes, lets take the US based price of two systems before tax and compare them to another system in a different continent with different taxes and hell lets even apply taxes to it without applying it to the original systems. Hell you might as well choose the Mideast prices since it's going to be around 850 in Israel.

In the US the Wii costs 289 dollars, and the 360 costs 328 dollars, and the PS3 costs 530 dollars.

I know because I own them all.

Facts people. They're not just for breakfast anymore.

Justify a 40% price increase outside japan!

[cheekyboy]

1. no 20gig option (idiots)
2. 40% price difference outside japan to EU/AU/UK
3. Now with cost reductions, their profit margins are way higher.
4. I say it again 40%!!!!, shipping costs are TINY, $1200 for large containers. Its the same price to ship 10000 ps3s from X to USA, and X to AU
local taxes are nearly identical, USA 8-9% sales taxes, close to AU's 10% GST.
5. I had to buy something for $1300 (3 games inc) then i have a LONGER list of goodies to buy first before buying a ps3.
6. if i

Re:

[BillX]

2 Hondas and 2 Fords? ... Say I hop into the first Honda and drive it 'til the wheels fall off (>=250k miles). I leave it on the roadside and go back for my 2nd Honda... even if we say (somewhat accurately) that the Fords will only last half as long, are you saying I can get 750k miles out of one Lexus?
My take on such things (to continue the car analogy ad absurdum) is that there is a clear difference between adding value and adding expensive, but diminishing, incremental improvements that do not add sig

Re:

[Rycross]

Just curious, if your company had a morose outlook on the product, then why spend so much time supporting it?

Re:

[nizcolas]

I read that as: "The download size will become smaller, but the content per mb will be higher."

Which may or may not be what it means at all.