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Role Playing (Games) The Internet Science

The Elevator Effect In Second Life 167

Posted by kdawson from the going-up dept.
There is an good video on NPR about how real human reactions translate to the virtual world. It's interesting in view of the question posted here about rape in Second Life. The video covers a little experiment in SL where a reporter gets together with a psychologist to see if some unspoken human rules apply in the virtual world — such as staring or standing too close to someone. Perhaps surprisingly, in this world where you can be or do just about anything, you can't break these unspoken rules with impunity.
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The Elevator Effect In Second Life More

The Elevator Effect In Second Life

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  • The video covers a little experiment in SL where a reporter gets together with a psychologist to see if some unspoken human rules apply in the virtual world -- such as staring or standing too close to someone. Perhaps surprisingly, in this world where you can be or do just about anything, you can't break these unspoken rules with impunity.

    Well, yeah, you can, as long as you don't get caught, if you know what I mean.

    • Re:who's hurling the giant phalluses around? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @09:54AM (#19009871) Homepage
      I find it entertaining as these reporters are acting like it;s a new thing. It's not. Ever cince the days of Doom this has been observed and documented. Camping, while being a viable attack vector in the real world (called a sniper) is frowned upon so much in game that most all combatants will band together to punish the camper.

      There was a paper published about it back in the 90's. I wonder if anyone can find it out there on the internet. I believe it was "social manifestations in online gaming" or something similar where they already looked at this and even in a game where you are supposed to go around killing each other, certain social rules are still followed or suffer getting punished.

      • Camping, while being a viable attack vector in the real world (called a sniper) is frowned upon so much in game....

        Are you suggesting that being a sniper isn't "frowned upon" in real life? It's just ok to set up somewhere with a rifle and shoot people.

      • In *real* war, the sniper is also the most hated enemy soldier. And like in Doom or whatever game you're playing, your best bet for survival is to gang up on the sniper to eliminate him/her.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Old Wolf ( 56093 )
        There was a paper published about it back in the 90's. I wonder if anyone can find it out there on the internet. I believe it was "social manifestations in online gaming" or something similar where they already looked at this and even in a game where you are supposed to go around killing each other, certain social rules are still followed or suffer getting punished.

        I wish someone would send that paper to those cunty Horde who keep ganking me while I'm questing. To Peterjenning @ Dunemaul, may you have your
        • let me go get the whambulance... I wonder how many people you have camped or ganked as last time I checked there was 30% more Alliance on that server... If you do not want it move to a PvE server...

  • Yes you can (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Timesprout ( 579035 )
    you can break all these rules with impunity because there is no real consequence, unlike in actual life.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Breaking them seems to have the same consequence as in real life, people get annoyed.
      If you would go and stare at some stranger in real life, it's not like he's gonna call he cops or knock you down or something (at least not with regular alcohol-levels).
      • Exactly my point. Please explain how someone getting annoyed in a game relates to someone smacking you in the face with real pain and blood/teeth loss for you.

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Urza9814 ( 883915 )
          Still damages your in-game reputation, just like it would damage your real-life reputation. As the GP said, someone won't smack you in the face in real life normally. They'll just get pissed, make fun of you, avoid you, and tell other people about it, causing them to do the same. Basically, kill social interaction. How is that NOT possible in a virtual world?

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Timesprout ( 579035 )

            Basically, kill social interaction. How is that NOT possible in a virtual world
            So no actual consequence as I said earlier and nothing to stop the offender taking the 15 seconds it takes to create another online identity. Devastating, just devastating, no wonder everyone is so polite online.
            • Depends on the game. If you have invested a lot of time in a particular character, particularly at end-game level, it's a good idea to maintain a decent reputation. It's true though that there is normally nothing to stop a player acting like a total arse and then creating a new character with a clean slate.

            • Re:Yes you can (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Hemogoblin ( 982564 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @11:25AM (#19010521)
              You're equating "non-physical" to "non-consequential". Think about that for a minute and you'll realize how silly that conclusion is.

              • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

                by Timesprout ( 579035 )
                No I said no 'actual consequence'. Think about that for a minute and you will realize how silly your comment is.
            • Teach you to try to explain how lack of social interaction is a punishment to a slashdotter.

    • Re:Yes you can (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @09:58AM (#19009901) Homepage
      Problem is , people think that when they are in their car they also can happily break these rules. Even though they know it's not just rude anymore but outright dangerous. Standing-too-close = tailgaiting. you can KILL people with that behaivoir. and honestly, upset the guy in front of you and he can jam on the breaks and teach you a lesson.

      All that studies like this prove is that if you are not close enough to punch the person in the face for their bad behaivoir or to keep them under control, fellow humanity becomes raging jerks. Something that almost all of us old farts learned a while ago.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by arth1 ( 260657 )
        Yet another car analogy on /. ?

        Anyhow, I'll stop tailgating when people stop putting bumper stickers on their cars. That's inviting tailgating, much like having written text on the chest of your T-shirt is inviting people to stare at your chest. Offline or online.

  • Newsflash (Score:2, Insightful)

    by dreamchaser ( 49529 )
    Humans have human nature and human psychological responses. Film at 11.

    Slashdot has never had a great signal to noise ratio, but it sure as hell is getting worse by the day. What a useless waste of bytes!

  • Yeah, I get the same feeling here (Score:5, Funny)

    by niceone ( 992278 ) * on Sunday May 06, 2007 @08:20AM (#19009489) Journal

    I get the same feeling here: I'll post something, and then someone else will post just below me, and it'll be stuck there right next to my post FOREVER.

    Freaks me out.

  • Not really surprising (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 06, 2007 @08:20AM (#19009491)
    SL is not really unique or different to any other aspect of the online world. People in forums giving others volley after volley of abuse for very little reason. If it was in the real world and you had to look someone in the eye you react very differently to the online world where I am sitting at a desk typing on a computer which nobody else knows about. Second life isn't showing some unique symptom here, it is simply a 3D and graphical representation of the same type of behaviour that has been occurring since the online world began back in the BB days.

    • Re: (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      ...that has been occurring since the online world began back in the BB days.

      The online world was fairly civil until AOL got access. This is not a troll. The difference was dramatic. Kinda similar to the effect the Kennedy killing had on the country.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by z-man ( 103297 )
        Ah yes, the September that never ended (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September)

  • To many second life articles (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bjourne ( 1034822 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @08:23AM (#19009503) Homepage Journal
    Ok, Second Life may or may not be pretty cool, but why is there one Slashdot article about it every two or three days? World of Warcraft is at least ten times as popular but does not get anywhere near the same coverage as Second Life does. It smells fishy.

    For example, there was this article about a woman offering sex [clubsi.com] for 5000 World of Warcraft gold. It did not reach Slashdot. That ten times as funny and definitely more "interesting" than some kind of psychological experiment. :)
    • That is nothing more than prostitution.

      • Re:To many second life articles (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Tribbin ( 565963 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @08:56AM (#19009611) Homepage
        To me she sounds like a girl who knows exactly what she wants, and what she wants to 'pay' for it.

        (leaving out that they are going to see each other again and obviously both enjoyed 'the transaction')

        Now what's wrong with that?

        • Re:To many second life articles (Score:5, Interesting)

          by MarkByers ( 770551 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @09:29AM (#19009751) Homepage Journal
          > To me she sounds like a girl who knows exactly what she wants, and what she wants to 'pay' for it.

          > Now what's wrong with that?

          I didn't say there is anything "wrong" with it, I just said it was prostitution... which it is. Prostitution is perfectly legal in many countries. You can make up your own mind whether it is wrong or not.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Tribbin ( 565963 )
            Yes indeed, selling your body is prostitution.

            But if you don't make the distinction between;

            [a woman who makes money in prostitution because she needs the money or drugs, or one who sells her body against her own will]
            AND
            [someone who wants virtual money to reach a goal in her hobby and would not mind to give her body to a high-ranked fellow gamer]

            then your binary logical statement disturbs me.
    • Well one is a real scientific experiment and the other is exploiting people for virtual money. Slashdot has a lot of articles in the past for Virtual Money and what there worth is. This is a more of a study of human nature and how it responds to the virtuatl world. WoW unlike second life is based on a fantasy world where some you are dealing with things that are not your species. While second life it is mostly humans you are dealing with.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by dr.badass ( 25287 )
      World of Warcraft is at least ten times as popular but does not get anywhere near the same coverage as Second Life does.

      There just isn't much "new" going on in connection with World of Warcraft. Second Life has considerably more novelty, hence it gets more coverage. Even your example, the whorecraft story, may be "funny", but it isn't new or interesting at all -- does anyone really think that hasn't been going on for ages? Besides, if you're looking for "teh lulz", try Digg or Fark or Reddit instead. Sl

    • Re: (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      For example, there was this article about a woman offering sex for 5000 World of Warcraft gold. It did not reach Slashdot.

      The typical Slashdot user would be more excited about such an exchange working the other way around.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Threni ( 635302 )
      > Ok, Second Life may or may not be pretty cool, but why is there one Slashdot article about it every two or three days?

      Because a lot of spotty bedroom boys spend all their time there?

    • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @10:19AM (#19010015)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • For example, there was this article about a woman offering sex for 5000 World of Warcraft gold. It did not reach Slashdot.


        Dear God, next we'll find out that people are offering sex on MUDs and MUCKs!


        I don't think you understand.... that was a person offering real sex (advertised through craigs list) in exchange for items in a virtual world.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by brkello ( 642429 )
        I honestly don't think people on Slashdot are all that interested in it. I think they astroturf this site. Most people check out Second Life...find it fairly boring and poorly implemented and walk away. People are too busy playing World of Warcraft to care to post articles about WoW. In Second Life, there is real money involved so it makes sense that they try to sucker more people in to it. I think that is why I don't like it. It reeks of the real world. I play games to escape the real world...not en

  • The Elevator Effect? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bazman ( 4849 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @08:24AM (#19009507) Journal
    Can you fart in Second Life now?
  • From about 10 years of experiences of online games...

    The video covers a little experiment in SL where a reporter gets together with a psychologist to see if some unspoken human rules apply in the virtual world

    No... And a "no" to if many people care for that either.
    SL may be "special", cool or whatever, but it's still just a game with awful graphics and a lot of virtual hookers.

  • Some unspoken human rules DO apply (Score:5, Funny)

    by evilsofa ( 947078 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @09:04AM (#19009639)
    "if some unspoken human rules apply in the virtual world"

    Do you know how annoying it is for a ten foot tall neon pink ogre to jump up and down in front of your face and not stop until you log out?

    My friends do!

  • Obligatory... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 06, 2007 @09:06AM (#19009653)
    I put on my robe and wizard hat.
  • I'd be interested to see the same experiment undertaken in WoW, where game mechanic feature to follow people are built in. In any case, since the player view is 3rd person, the movements of the avatar don't correspond directly to the view of the player (camera), which should lesson the perception of a social faux-pas, no? Also, I wonder if the delineation into strict sides also lessens the effect - a player may be a stranger, but he's on your side, so to speak.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Rallion ( 711805 )
      Actually, when playing WoW, I did actually tend to feel a little uncomfortable when another character was standing too close to mine in an open space, third-person camera or not. I could be a rare case, but seeing people move to put a little 'personal space' between themselves and others was not uncommon -- unless that was just my own perception of some mostly random shifting.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by infomagic ( 866125 )
        My WoW experience is slightly different. Surely I've seen some cases when WoW characters (or rather players behind them) followed those 'unspoken rule' the video is talking about, but in the majority of cases they didn't. The reason is simple, in WoW all the characters are transparent, there is no 'pushing' effect or anything similar. The chars can simply go *through* each other (and they often do). I am sure you've seen the scenes in the Auction Hall or near mail boxes in all large cities, where literally
    • I play Myst Online : Uru Live (yes the name is really long) there is first person and third person views. Human standrads are the same and viewed the same by everyone. Currently avatar collision is turned off (originally as a way to dell with crash issues) its considered the height of bad mannors to run through anouther person, if you do it by accident or are forced to (for example their blocking a path) then its pretty standard that you appologise imediatly.

      Just because its virtual doesn't mean any of us b
  • I thought it was more of a amazing video!

  • Only 5 gold a piece ; protect yourself now before you get raped ...
  • So far I can't say that people had any trouble coming very close to each other in SL.

    Oh. Oh you mean when they're not virtual fucking?

    Hmm... where on SL can THAT be observed?
  • Read this article about an even that happened 14 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Rape_in_Cyberspace [wikipedia.org]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Aladrin ( 926209 )
      In other words, instead of saying 'Hey, I'm not doing that!' and logging off, and waiting for the system to be corrected, she stood there and let him voodoo-control her character. While I don't doubt this was traumatic for her, the fact that she was unable to disconnect fantasy from reality is her real problem.

      The system was soon changed to prevent this kind of thing from having the same impact again.

      Second Life doesn't have NEAR the ability to the customize and the only way this could happen was through a

  • Virtual worlds don't make us different... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dusty123 ( 538507 ) on Sunday May 06, 2007 @10:38AM (#19010145)
    The really interesting thing about such virtual, anonymous worlds like Second Life is, that although we *could* be someone else, we decide not to. Newbies in these world often try to be a completely different character, however, over time they get very, very close to their real character.

    I'd say, it's quite simple: In normal life, we chose who we are. Most people have fixed patterns which affect their behavior and therefore their daily life. Over time, these patterns get more and more restricting and make people lose their authenticity.

    So, there's certainly a wish to break out, and that's what these virtual worlds promise us - but changing or breaking patterns can never be done by changing worlds. We see that every day, when people change their jobs, their partners or their homes - after all, most end up the same.

    Even if there's a "Third Life" and a "Fourth Life", maybe hundreds of them, they will in the end be all the same, simply as we are who we are.

    However, if we are shaken up so much, that we have to drop some patterns, or really decide to make a change, this and all other worlds will be different - instantly...
  • Given the state of gaming and how most of them don't even have properly animated eyes, let alone properly player controlled ones, I really doubt that eye contact matters at all currently, especially not in third person camera. I think the reasons why many of the rules still work is simply because we role play a little bit. There is no point in placing your avatars a pixel away from another one when you have plenty of open room, so people end up spacing their characters around more evenly, it simply is the l
    • "Given the state of gaming and how most of them don't even have properly animated eyes, let alone properly player controlled ones, I really doubt that eye contact matters at all currently, especially not in third person camera."

      Just on this portion of your comment.. when you look around in SL, you usually alt-mouse your camera around. You can put the cursor on another av (or object), then alt mouse to zoom there and your av does indeed look where your camera is pointed, and the eyes do properly look where y

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