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XBox (Games) Hardware

Microsoft Evasive on 360 Hardware Changes 106

Posted by Zonk from the it-wasn't-broken-in-the-first-place-huh dept.
From all reports Microsoft has upgraded the Xbox 360 consoles coming from their factories, and modified the consoles heading back to consumers from service calls. The trouble is, they're having a hard time admitting it. The company has always maintained there aren't any excessive heat problems with their console, so admitting now that they've added extra heatsink capabilities would be ... somewhat embarrassing. Dean Takahashi at the San Jose Merc has an interview with Todd Holmdahl, the 'hardware guy' at Microsoft: "We're very proud of the box. We think the vast majority of people are having just a great experience. You look at the number of games they are buying, the number of accessories they are buying, the Live attach. They love the box. They continue to buy the box. That said, we take any customer issue very seriously. We continue to look into these things very deeply. You have seen we have made some changes to our customer service policy."
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Microsoft Evasive on 360 Hardware Changes More

Microsoft Evasive on 360 Hardware Changes

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  • So What? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ClosedSource ( 238333 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @11:43AM (#19552549)
    If the system has a heating problem don't buy it. MS has no obligation to inform anyone about their hardware design.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by geekster ( 87252 )
      Don't they have an obligation to make that hardware work though?
      • Yes, if it breaks they are pretty good about getting a new one too you. Atleast in my experience.
      • Sure, to the same degree as any manufacturer does. But that's not the subject here.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by geekster ( 87252 )
          Fair enough. I misunderstood your comment.

          And I have no problem with Microsoft regarding the Xbox. I bought mine a couple of months ago and though it broke down on the first day I got it, their helpline was very helpful and offered to repair it but suggested I'd first try getting a replacement at the store since it broke so soon after purchase. Thankfully there was no problem at the store and I didn't have to wait the 3 weeks for repair.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by MikeyTheK ( 873329 )
        I have one of the ORIGINAL original 360's - I won it from Mountain Dew's EveryTenMinutes.com promotion. So I've literally had my 360 at leat two days longer than anyone...other than the other ETM winners. I have played the tar out of standard games on that thing both with and without Live, played a bunch of movies on it, and hours and hours of Arcade on it. I've played single player, two-player, and even three and four player both online and off. For all the hype about issues with the 360, I have had no

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Vr6dub ( 813447 )
          Here goes my anecdotal evidence. I have 3 friends who bought the system right around launch. Two are dead including mine. Well, mine was dead. I made sure to provide the Xbox with sufficient airflow and kept the brick off the ground. Did some searching on the internet and I was able to fix the system for $8 in parts from the local hardware store. It involves modding how the heatsinks are secured to the board. Also with some index cards and electrical tape you can improve airflow over the cpu/gpu heat
        • I bought one for myself around March of 06. I bought two more as gifts for my siblings in December. One of those two has just been sent back but seems to be getting managed well. There may have been airflow issues with it, too.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by twistedsymphony ( 956982 )

      If the system has a heating problem don't buy it. MS has no obligation to inform anyone about their hardware design.

      How do you know it has a heating problem until you buy it? Even reports from other consumers are inconsistent and the only "facts" on the return numbers are being produced by MS themselves. How can you expect a consumer to make an educated purchase decision in this situation?

      Speaking of "facts on the return numbers" am I the only one who noticed that they went from:
      -No problems at all
      -Be

      • It can be challenging for consumers to make educated decisions on any purchase, but even if MS put a full schematic in the box, it wouldn't help 99% of their customers make an educated decision.

        This just looks to me like another example of wanting to treat MS differently than other companies. Perhaps "full disclosure of hardware" should be added to Slashdot's imaginary special rules for what monopolists must do.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by tzanger ( 1575 )

          It can be challenging for consumers to make educated decisions on any purchase, but even if MS put a full schematic in the box, it wouldn't help 99% of their customers make an educated decision.

          Technically speaking, a schematic isn't much help in determining whether a unit will have thermal trouble. :-)

          • Well, we moved on to the general issue of making "educated decisions", but you're right. They could provide a thermal profile but it would probably be comprehensible to even fewer people.

        • Full disclosure of problems (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Tony ( 765 )
          Nice spin. You dizzy yet?

          Actually, all we expect from any company is openness, and not lies. If you are selling a piece of shit, please let us know how bad it smells before we buy it. If you discover you have a problem with your hardware, fess up and do right by the people who spent their money on your stupid fucking product.

          I'm not just talking about monopolies who abuse their market position to control the market in ways the government can't even dream about. I want ethical behavior from *all* corporation
          • "I want ethical behavior from *all*"

            Who doesn't? But you don't see stories on Slashdot on every company that screws up a product.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by tc ( 93768 )
            Sure, but back in the real world, it's a bit unfair to hold Microsoft to standards we don't hold anyone else to. For example, I don't notice Sony or Nintendo publishing their hardware failure rates. Heck, I can't think of a single consumer electronics company which publishes such a thing. In that environment, MS would have to be crazy to publish their numbers (no matter what they are).

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by sqlrob ( 173498 )
              And Nintendo got burned for it with the cracks in the DS Lite. If it's the 0.02% claimed, we would've won the lottery several times in a row on those odds.
          • I've had my 360 for over a year, and never had a problem with it. There have been a couple of times that I've gotten disc read errors or that's it's frozen on me, but I simply turn it off, take 5, and come back to it. I've never gotten the red lights and I've never experienced anything different from what's happened to my PC or my old PS2.

            That said though, I do three things that a lot of people don't do.

            1) I turn if off for a few minutes if I start having trouble, in an effort to let it cool off. I don

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by deek ( 22697 )

            Actually, all we expect from any company is openness, and not lies. If you are selling a piece of shit, please let us know how bad it smells before we buy it.

            Hah! You want companies to tell you the truth about their product, no matter how bad it is?! Let's be realistic, it's just not in the interest of the company to do so. The best you can currently hope for is for early adopters to get burnt and report it on a forum. That's why I love the internet ... it's given a world-wide consumer base a ch

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by edwdig ( 47888 )
          but even if MS put a full schematic in the box, it wouldn't help 99% of their customers make an educated decision.

          That depends. Is the schematic under the GPL ? If it is, then obviously all problems would be identified and solved immediately by the community.
          • Sure, because all problems with GPL'd code are quickly identified and "solved immediately". That's why the bug lists are always empty.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by edwdig ( 47888 )
              There's this little thing called sarcasm...
              • ... And you just got bit by it.
                In all honesty, the fact that Microsoft admitted the problem enough to take significant (not just 'free replacement!') efforts to fix it is more a good thing than a bad - if they can reduce the complaints without increasing prices, then where's the beef?
              • Sometimes sarcasm is indistinguishable from extreme positions on Slashdot.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Aladrin ( 926209 )
        "How do you know it has a heating problem until you buy it? Even reports from other consumers are inconsistent"

        Oh, maybe by listening to the absolutely tidal wave of people talking about how hot the 360 gets. It doesn't matter how much the company denies it, there's way too many people talking about it. They even talked about it before launch!

        I knew the cooler system was inadequate when I bought it. I purchased one of those shitty fans for the back, and it nearly destroyed my box. (I was warned, I ignor
        • I put my 360 in an open space with open air flow on all sides. I've put that bad boy through some 12+ hour marathon gaming sessions. And it's still alive. The cooling system is adequate when placed in the proper environment.

          Most of the stories I've heard about the 360 overheating were due to putting it in areas with poor air flow. If you're going to put it in an area with BAD air flow, you're going to have to do extra work and turn it into an area with good air flow. The issue isn't the 360, it's where
    • But that doesn't mean consumers shouldn't be told that Microsoft has a problem, and does not acknowledge it. That way, we can make an informed decision to avoid the 360.

  • Embarrassing? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Green Light ( 32766 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @11:43AM (#19552561) Journal
    I am not sure why adding a heatsink would be embarrassing. If they find an issue, then they should fix it going forward.

    • Re:Embarrassing? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by powerlord ( 28156 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @11:48AM (#19552645) Journal
      It would be embarrassing because they have vehemently denied there was a problem since the console launched.

      Also, admitting that perhaps it has an issue might open themselves up to class action lawsuits (perhaps requiring that the change be made available to every console shipped free of charge), not to mention the bad publicity that would follow.

      All and all not something MS wants to contemplate as the Wii and PS3 don't seem to have that problem, and are competing with it at both ends of the market.
      • Check it: "We don't think it needs another heat sink but you guys kept bugging us and bugging us so fine. We added an extra heat sink! Now we don't want to hear any more about it!"

        See? It's easy to say you did something without admitting any previous error!

        • Ah, but then you'd still have to address the issue of all the people who own a 360 demanding that this "fix" get applied to their console.

          You'd also have the issue of shareholders being afraid that the company (or division at least), which has yet to turn a profit, is spending still more money for no reason than because people kept "nagging" them.

          That sort of logic doesn't work well with accountability to shareholders, and that means that they'd have to have full disclosure, which would make the press and m

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by laffer1 ( 701823 )
            Yes, but they might also get added sales once its public they finally fixed the damn things. I've been waiting for an "all clear" in regard to hardware problems. I don't want to buy an xbox 360 until I know its not going to break in 3 months. I had to wait to get on the original xbox bandwagon too.

            I'm actually confused about the problems with the xbox 360 now. Some people early on reported it was the power supply that was overheating. Now they put an extra heatsink in?

      • It would be embarrassing because they have vehemently denied there was a problem since the console launched.

        Also, admitting that perhaps it has an issue might open themselves up to class action lawsuits (perhaps requiring that the change be made available to every console shipped free of charge), not to mention the bad publicity that would follow.

        This is a problem I see in the US. Companies for some reason are averse to addressing issues in existing problems. Maybe it's a fear of being sued. So problems nev

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by *weasel ( 174362 )
          The difference is that adding more heatsinks to the design already in production would be quite different.

          In your car analogy, what people are calling for is more like Ford retooling their assembly line to fix the Taurus' water pump during the first year make/model run, or pushing out a mid-year Taurus 1.5 model to address the issues, even though normal competition isn't exerting any pressure to do so (people are still buying them, and your primary competitor is flailing around ineffectually) and will exert

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by ProppaT ( 557551 )
          Correction: The update of the DS wasn't due to problems people were having with the system, because it was more or less a bugless system. The update was to address the fact that the PSP was sleaker and had a brighter screen. Now the DS is sleaker and has two brighter screens than the PSP.

          Regardless, every game company releases revisions to their consoles for either cosmetic or bug related issues. the PS1 and PS2 both went through numerous revisions. The X-Box went through a couple of different DVD driv
    • As everyone should know, the extra heatsink is not needed. Just immerse your Xbox 360 in water, and the heat dissipation will be doubled. It also helps if you don't use your jumpjets too often.

      Adding an extra heatsink is embarassing because Microsoft does not want to admit that they failed to test properly under atypical, but common, usage conditions.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mikael ( 484 )
        Adding an extra heatsink is embarassing because Microsoft does not want to admit that they failed to test properly under atypical, but common, usage conditions.

        Like being placed on a thick rug carpet in a basement den with the central heating turned on high, and being played non-stop for 48 hours by teenagers having a Christmas war game party?
      • If you mount the 360 in your legs, you only have to stand in Level 1 water to get this impressive cooling effect.

        Then you can use your EtheR N.E.T. to pummel your enemies with packets, all while avoiding an ammo explosion or shutdown.

  • RTFA...but whats the actual issue (Score:4, Insightful)

    by svendsen ( 1029716 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @11:44AM (#19552565)
    I must be missing something. Rev 1 of hardware goes out the door. Some people have issues with it. They have a fix. So when Rev 1 items go in for repair they put the fix in place (whether or not that's the reason it was sent in).

    What am I missing here?
    • The issue may be that if they admit that rev 1 had a problem, then a large number of people with rev 1 may call MS and demand the fix, and/or a class action could get started claiming rev 1's were defective, etc etc.
      • What a bunch of nonsense. What possible damages could there be when the majority of the boxes don't have a problem at all? Even still, unless the box is getting so hot that it causes fire in MANY causes there's no reason for MS to "fix" the current boxes.

    • Re:RTFA...but whats the actual issue (Score:5, Funny)

      by ichigo 2.0 ( 900288 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @11:49AM (#19552657)
      But it's Microsoft! Obviously something evil must be going on. Maybe the heatsink is made of kittens?
      • Obviously something evil must be going on. Maybe the heatsink is made of kittens?

        That'd be an Evil nintendo thing, since kittens are more kid oriented. More likely the heatsinks are made out of the tortured souls of Vista QC'ers.

        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by technos ( 73414 )
          likely the heatsinks are made out of the tortured souls of Vista QC'ers.

          Suuure.. Vista QC.. Next thing you'll be telling me that BluRay discs are made from the scales of Nessie, or that Bigfoot designed the original X-Box controller.

          Though.. I would almost believe that last one.
    • You're missing the part where MS refuses to acknowledge that revision 1 is anything less than perfect. If they did that, then a whole bunch of people who don't have any problems with their R1 Xbox 360s will insist on getting a free replacement because MS admits that the product is faulty.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by svendsen ( 1029716 )
        Again either you 360 works or it doesn't. If it doesn't they will fix it.

        Since there is no mass failing so 360s there wouldn't be a recall, and no mass failings means its not like the product itself was built like a piece of crap. All manufacturing processes have defects and they are correcting the ones with those defects. Heck they even extended the warranty by a full year after the original 90 day one.

        I dunno just doesn't seem like a story.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by LWATCDR ( 28044 )
        Your post it the reason why they will not "admit it".
        I am guessing that the 360 REV works just fine for 99.9% of the people that own one. Some people may not dust enough or cover the vents or goodness knows what and they are overheating. So to IMPROVE the product they are increasing the heat sinks. When a machine comes in for repairs they are putting on the better heat sinks.
        If they say that some people are having issues then everybody and their dog will want to send in there 360 to get the new heat sinks e

    • I'd say it's an intermittent problem (Score:5, Interesting)

      by JohnnyComeLately ( 725958 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @12:03PM (#19552857) Homepage Journal
      I work in a tech support department for a manufacturer, and it's a tightrope to balance Sales desires versus Engineering's desires. Engineering wants to come out with a fix, but yet they want to keep a lid on the idea that they designed a defective product. Sales wants to hear there's a fix but then gets upset when distributors want to return hundreds of product. So, applying my experience to the observations of Microsoft, I'd say it's either a bug they can't reproduce, or a change mid-production for a bug that isn't going to happen a high percentage of the time on the original design.

      For example, we had a problem with the open cell foam behind buttons for security panels that were installed in the upper-NorthEast areas of the US, and Canada. Water would get into the cell and freeze, and then subsequent freeze/thaw conditions killed the foam. We revised the design. There's no reason, however, for a Florida or Arizona distributor to return thousands of units for a "button upgrade", even though everyone wants the "latest and greatest". One other example is a "hypothetical" condition. You've got hundreds of products with "reported heat issues". You might think this is an issue, but when you look at the fact there are millions of units out, hundreds is nothing. Engineering on their own makes a heat design change, and you decide to implement it on returns cause the retrofit is cheap and practical. You're not going to recall millions of units that are currently working fine, and there are a couple hundred with REPORTED problems. I have a feeling if you look at other consumer devices stuck in entertainment centers, the number of overheating XBOX360s is on par for the industry.
  • "We opened the Next Generation of consoles with the hottest one out there! Now we're making sure it gets nothing but cooler from here on out!"

    Remember kids; it ain't marketing unless it ends with a bang!

  • Those new changes in full (Score:3, Funny)

    by Realistic_Dragon ( 655151 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @11:50AM (#19552679) Homepage
    10,000 volt capacitor (triggered by Live Smack Talk interpretation device).
    Instant set concrete foam spray (triggered by the pirate Windows install seismometer).
    Mustard gas dispenser (triggered by the mod chip detection unit).
    Flamethrower (triggered by the iPod spectrometer).
    VHF location transponder tied to IRBM launch site (triggered by the GPL sens-o-matic).
    • May I just add that Wile E Coyote wished me to clarify that, while he is the sole suppliers of sophisticated counter measures to Microsoft on behalf of the ACME corporation, he had nothing to do with the design of the original XBox controllers. That was all their fault.

  • The drake... (Score:3, Funny)

    by spocksbrain ( 1097145 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @12:27PM (#19553235)
    I don't even like XBox.
    You don't like The Box?
    I hate The Box.
    I loooooove The Box!
    How could you not like The Box?
    Who's The Box?
    Who's The Box!
    The Box is good.

  • Regarding the many failed units... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Elledan ( 582730 ) on Monday June 18, 2007 @12:41PM (#19553487) Homepage
    One issue which is often overlooked is the way MSFT handles returned (broken) units. Instead of sending back a brand-new unit every time, they've got this pool of refurb units, which appear to be largely a pile of lemons, meaning that the moment someone hits a bad, new unit, chances are that s/he will receive refurb units which'll fail soon as well, for the simple fact that they're lemons with more defects than MSFT seems to be able to fix.

    This would explain why a significant number of people have gone through 3-4 units before receiving one which doesn't give a RROD or such after a few weeks/months. It'd also indicate that the bottom line is more important to MSFT than good customer service.
  • My 360 is over a year old and still works fine. I know around twenty people with 360's out of those tow have had the red lights of death problem. The first guy I know with the problem modded his xbox so I always questioned whether the problem was due to something he did when he opened up the box to begin with. The second called microsoft and had a replacement at his door in a little over a week round trip. Im sure there are plenty of legitimate users that have had overheating problems, but nearly every

    • The problem: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by lmnfrs ( 829146 )

      If MS is being responsive and fixing the issues whats the problem?

      The problem is that they aren't admitting there are issues with the Xbox360. They're claiming there are no issues and installing "perfectly normal" hardware updates that, mysteriously, are directly related to these nonexistent issues. They're trying to do just enough to not get sued.

      For comparison, there was a bug in an Intel CPU (the Pentium I believe) that rarely occurred and didn't actually cause problems for an average end user when it

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dabraun ( 626287 )

        The problem is that they aren't admitting there are issues with the Xbox360. They're claiming there are no issues and installing "perfectly normal" hardware updates that, mysteriously, are directly related to these nonexistent issues. They're trying to do just enough to not get sued.

        They don't have to admit anything. They just need to meet the warranty contrat that they provided and go the extra mile as needed to ensure a positive overall relationship with their customers. Given that they *retroactively*

  • Most of this guy's responses are , "we don't comment on that". not "we CANT", specifically, "we don't".

  • I don't recommend you buy an XBox 360. In fact, I recommend against it.

    That's because I own one. I bought it about two months ago.

    I had read about the problems with overheating, the unit being loud, and it's fragility. But, I wanted to play a few games. So, I bought the console, Viva Pinta, and Gears Of War. It cost me well over $600.00. This was just after they announced that they would warranty the console for 1 year, rather than the pitiful and embarrassing 90 days that they would previously warran
    • Covering something because it makes noise - nice.
      Complaining that it overheats after covering it - stupid.

      I have a dvr that makes a lot of noise, although it's white noise, so you don't really notice it when watching a show or movie.
    • Thanks for the warning.

      Besides the Wii, I'd also suggest getting a PS3 as an option. Sony has been doing a lot of interesting updates to its BIOS (it now upconverts DVDs to HD quality if you are using an HDMI cable, it also can act as a media client attaching streaming music, video or pictures from a DLNA server), and the graphics are on par with the 360 (if thats important to you). There are also a number of fun exclusives due out in the next month or two Lair, Ninja Gaiden Sigma (although arguably a rem

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