Valve's Orange Box For PS3 Delayed, Not Console Related

Eurogamer is reporting that the package of Half-Life 2, Half-Life 2: Episodes One and Two, Portal, and Team Fortress 2 known as the Orange Box will have a delayed release on the PlayStation 3. The 360 and PC versions are still slated for retail release on October 9th, with the PS3 version coming two-to-three weeks later. But, Valve was quick to point out, it's not because of the console: "The reason for the PS3 build's late arrival, marketing director Doug Lombardi told Eurogamer, is simply that the EA UK team handling [the PS3 Orange Box's] development are on the other side of the ocean and are necessarily a bit behind the core Valve team's development. 'We weren't going to hold up PC and 360 for PS3,' Lombardi told us."

First Post delayed

[LiquidCoooled]

This post is delayed as well, though its not because of the PS3 console either.
Its because I outsourced my typing and there is some lag.

Re:

[Headcase88]

Lesson of the day: if you enable reparenting of comments, don't mod comments "off-topic".

Re:

[XaXXon]

dont' forget about the wii.. it does some pretty slick FPS without a mouse.. heck.. it's more like an actual shooter

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[sveard]

It's more like actually shooting someone. I mean, something.

Gabe Newell is poisoning his own well

[DrXym]

His constant bitching about the PS3 must be severely dampening interest in the Orange Box on that platform. I expect most of his complaints stem from the PS3's outright impudence of not being a Microsoft platform and not using Microsoft APIs. Even so, when the head of Valve slags off a platform, what confidence does it instill in games they're making for it? Apparently they're so allergic to this strange and terrifying console that they've shoved the port onto some EA team. Perhaps the game will end up being great on the PS3 but at the moment I have no confidence at all that it will be. Mr Newell needs to shut up or say something positive. Worse is that I just know that if the port does turn out to be poor or sales are a flop that he'll blame the console rather than acknowledge his own hand in the outcome.

Re:Gabe Newell is poisoning his own well

[Clazzy]

To be honest, the game engine is being updated all the time. We had HDR, better facial animation and now we're getting better physics, optimisations for multiple processors, motion blur and more. I could understand your point if the engine remained static but Valve are putting a lot of effort into the engine so it's not just an addon that's three years late. This is more-or-less the way episodic content will be anyway, this might be the norm if enough people see it as a good way of making money.

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[Emetophobe]

Not to mention The Orange Box includes the original Half-Life 2 aswell as Episode 1, Episode 2, Portal AND Team Fortress 2. I think I'll get atleast 100-200 hours of play out of the orange box, well worth the purchase. I've been waiting for this for ages, and it's almost finally out... I've got it marked on my calender: October 10, 2007 (assuming there's no delays).

I only ever bought Half-Life 2 and for the longest time I wanted to get Episode 1 (I even went to a local store a couple times but they never ha

Re:

[ChildeRoland]

Do you have a source for your claim that the Orange Box includes HL2 and Ep1? Everything I've seen simply states HL2: Ep2, Portal, and TF2.

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[Emetophobe]

Quote from GameSpot [gamespot.com] (emphasis mine):

When Half-Life 2: The Orange Box ships later this year, it promises to deliver an impressively wide range of gameplay. First, there's Half-Life 2: Episode Two, the second part of the trilogy follow-up to 2004's blockbuster Half-Life 2. (The Orange Box will also include Half-Life 2 as well as Episode One to get newcomers up to speed.) Next is Team Fortress 2, the stylized, team-based multiplayer action game that's been in development off and on over the past decade. Finall

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[DrXym]

Well you do get Team Fortress 2, Portal as well as episodes 1 & 2 of Half Life. The engine has been improved over the years (e.g. HDR) but I suspect it's still heavily dependent on DirectX and Win32 APIs. I expect the thought of porting the code so it ran under OpenGL and other APIs used by the PS3 was just too hideous to contemplate.

So they punted the work over to EA. I wouldn't be surprised if EA did the work pro bono or for a discount on the promise of any profits from the Orange Box on PS3 or othe

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[revengebomber]

Mod parent up. This is a prime example of the advantages of cross-platform (and likely, open source as well) libraries and APIs. Had they developed on an SDL-OGL-OAL system in the first place, porting the game would boil down to nothing more than re-doing the online features. As it is, however, they likely have to scrap and rebuild the entirety of the graphics, sound, and input code, before they can even think about the PS3 (which they're not even doing [maxconsole.net]).

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[caramelcarrot]

Except OGL is pretty inferior to D3D these days?

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[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's pretty much identical. Yes, the API is different in a few important respects, but OpenGL 2.1 supports every feature that D3D 9 supports except for one (instancing, which is absolutely required in D3D games, but isn't that big of a deal in GL games). One can simply ignore all the legacy baggage in OpenGL, and code for it exactly the same way you would for D3D. The only real difference is GLSL vs HLSL, and frankly that's just a matter of personal preference.

It gets trickier if you count D3D 10. There

Re:

[WhiteWolf666]

Huh?

Where did that come from?

The PSP, PS2, PS3, N64, GC, Wii, and DS all use OpenGL. Graphics on the PS3 are at least equivalent to the 360 (and I say this as a 360 owner who doesn't own a PS3). The architecture might be more difficult to program for (crazy CPU, etc . . . )) but how does that demonstrate that OpenGL is inferior?

Re:

[LiquidCoooled]

The age of a game is not important.
We still play chess and that is 500 years old, football originated over 2000 years ago and other games and sports have been around for as long.
As for computer games, I still find games like pacman and asteroids and things like lemmings or worms fun to play.

At the moment I am working my way through original half life (with the original GOTY edition from 1999) after I installed it for my son had an afternoon to kill. Whilst showing him how to play and getting him through th

Re:On the contrary

[DrXym]

Gabe Newell is a pro-Microsoft business hat. His opinion of the PS3 is non-technical, biased and quite ill informed. And spectacularly bizarre considering (I assume) that he wants the Orange Box to sell well on that console.

Carmack gives a reasoned technical criticism but it wasn't particularly pro or anti the PS3. His opinion was that you had to work harder to get at the power, specifically - "They are both powerful systems that are going to make excellent game platforms, but I have a bit of a preference for the 360's symmetric CPU architecture and excellent development tools," he said. "The PS3 will have a bit more peak power, but it will be easier to exploit the available power on the 360. Our next major title is being focused towards simultaneous release on 360, PS3, and PC."

That doesn't sound like badmouthing to me but an informed observation.

Re:

[Marbleless]

So basically Carmack & Newell agree but one is non-technical, biased and quite ill informed and the other isn't.

Hmmm ;)

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[Grave]

Actually, Carmack pretty much said that although the 360 is easy to develop for, the power is about even and he was going to get all he could from both systems anyway. Newell, however, gripes about how terrible the PS3 is and then outsources development. If he were actually programming for both himself, I'd be more interested in his opinion. But otherwise, his opinion comes off as biased and ill informed, since he doesn't actually have firsthand experience with it. UE3 and IDTech5 are both running just

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[MikeBabcock]

They do not even appear to agree. Carmack doesn't pan the PS3 at all, he simply points out that its harder to get at the available power, while also saying its more powerful.

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[ucblockhead]

He's not just pro-Microsoft. He's an ex Microsoft employee.

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[GL250]

Well said, DrXym. Carmack, although, I disagree with him. Really prefers the PC architecture. He's always been on the PC side. Even during the PS2 launch (he said the same criticism back then). Gabe Newell on the other hand is just a Microsoft Shill.

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[Elkboy]

Maybe you can send Gabe a pamphlet of how to really develop for the PS3 and see how the problems are really features. It worked for Sony and Lair, right?

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[DrXym]

There are plenty of decent games for the PS3. If the Orange Box sucks, the blame will lie squarely with the developers. And yes the blame lies with the LAIR developers too. The problems of that game had absolutely nothing to do with the PS3 at all (reviewers unanimously said it looked and sounded gorgeous) but the control scheme and targeting sucked.

Re:

[tepples]

Maybe you can send Gabe a pamphlet of how to really develop for the PS3

There are plenty of decent games for the PS3. If the Orange Box sucks, the blame will lie squarely with the developers. And yes the blame lies with the LAIR developers too.

And the Sony developers if the LAIR developers can't figure out how to use the PS3 API right. That's the kind of thing that the pamphlet might cover.

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[DrXym]

LAIR sucked for the controls, not any technical issue with the PS3. Quit trying to insinuate that a bad port mean there are problems with the console.

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[Grave]

What port? Lair is a unique and exclusive title for PS3. My understanding of the control problem was that it was primarily an issue of the motion-sensing not working out very well. Whether that is a hardware limitation or bad programming is unknown, but it's always been known that the SIXAXIS doesn't have anything like the motion capability of the Wiimote.

For a title that was supposed to be a system mover to have such a fundamental problem is a huge disappointment and honestly, not a very good indicator

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[Gravatron]

Motion senseing can work just fine in a flight game. Go look at warhawk, for example. Once you got the hang of it, it's pretty easy to whip your warhawk around in a dogfight. Lair doesn't control like that. It's more like trying to stear a 4 ton flying horse, not at all easy or smooth in comparison. Add on the lack of manual targeting, and it was a recipie for disaster. Even on a wii controller, it would have been the same deal.

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[KDR_11k]

I recall reviewers complaining about a shitty framerate, too.

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[I'm Don Giovanni]

Horrible controls is just ONE of the problems in Lair, according to reviews.
The framerate sucks too. (BTW, IGN just reviewed Skate, and gave the 360 version the nod over the PS3 version due to framerate problems on the PS3, and bad aliasing, and blurry visuals (in attempt to hide the aliasing). We've seen this over and over again, all this after Sony talked of dual-1080p output at 120 frames per second. After all that boasting, PS3 can't even do single 720p output at 60 (and even sometimes 30) fps withou

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[GL250]

"Horrible controls is just ONE of the problems in Lair, according to reviews. The framerate sucks too. (BTW, IGN just reviewed Skate, and gave the 360 version the nod over the PS3 version due to framerate problems on the PS3, and bad aliasing, and blurry visuals (in attempt to hide the aliasing). We've seen this over and over again, all this after Sony talked of dual-1080p output at 120 frames per second. After all that boasting, PS3 can't even do single 720p output at 60 (and even sometimes 30) fps without

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[GL250]

Wow! I'm Don. I don't even know where to start. How is Oblivion, Dirt, and Warhawk possible then? All you are doing is picking out the bad examples and completely forgetting -- intentionally I might add -- the development teams that actually took the time to learn the PS3's hardware. Let me explain "too hard to program for." It means, "Not developed with Microsoft tools, thus devs that are familiar with those DirectX/PC architecture are not able to get the most of our the PS3." Come on now. You can do bette

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[Doctor_Jest]

I'd be inclined to believe that was the case, (that the PS3 suffers with difficult APIs, etc) if I didn't play several games that were great. Resistance, Motorstorm, Ninja Gaiden Sigma, VF5... all have 0 issues like some of the "ports" are having. (I can't speak for Lair, because I've not played it... but the consensus from PS3 _owners_ has not been nearly as pitiful sounding as the reviewers... who I take as little stock in their opinions as possible...)

What I think is going on is lazy-assed developers wh

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[Doctor_Jest]

Spoken like someone who doesn't work in software. :)

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[prockcore]

What did they say about the controls? I was looking forward to Skate because Tony Hawk was getting ridiculously unrealistic (and the achievements for things like million point combos are insane), but I played the demo and really disliked the controls for skate.

I also, for the life of me, couldn't pull off the manuals at all.. and when I did it by accident, I'd get chastised for not flipping into it.

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[Ford Prefect]

"Apparently they're so allergic to this strange and terrifying console that they've shoved the port onto some EA team." Wow, or perhaps its because development on the 360 is similar to the PC? And wow, Gabe said he doesn't like the console because its completely different to how they develop games for the PC.

Also, it's not as if Gabe has never made comments rather scathing of Microsoft products [heise.de] in the past...

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[DrXym]

Sorry to burst your bubble but I'm quite happy to criticize any console including the PS3 or any game if it warrants it. As it happens Mr Newell has made numerous destructive comments about the PS3 including calling it a "total disaster" and criticizing the Cell for the high crime of not being the like the 360 CPU. I'm entirely justified in saying he's poisoning his own well with such odd remarks.

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[Emetophobe]

Knowing how EA likes to screw up PS3 ports (see the Madden 360/PS3 fiasco), I wouldn't touch an EA PS3 port with a 50 foot pole. I tend to avoid EA at all costs anyway (they really butchered Command & Conquer 3 in my opinion). I'm guessing with 99% certainty that the PS3 version isn't going to be as good as the PC/360 version, since it isn't being done by Valve themselves.

Besides, I don't see why people would want to play Half-life 2 on anything other than a PC anyway. Of course I'm biased towards PC fi

Re:

[DrXym]

Knowing how EA likes to screw up PS3 ports (see the Madden 360/PS3 fiasco), I wouldn't touch an EA PS3 port with a 50 foot pole. I tend to avoid EA at all costs anyway (they really butchered Command & Conquer 3 in my opinion). I'm guessing with 99% certainty that the PS3 version isn't going to be as good as the PC/360 version, since it isn't being done by Valve themselves.

I think EA are getting their act together. The recent NBA 2008 demo appeared to run at 60fps. I think the issue is that EA (& U

So they couldn't

[JamesRose]

Share data across the ocean, what did they think, they wqould get over charged by their ISP for long distance surfing?!

Seriously, if you are incapable of syncing development between America and the UK you should not have a development team in both countries. I can see how the time difference could be a small problem, but how much does it take to only communicate through e-mail, or I know this is scary, but have one of the offices working different hours in order to keep them in touch.

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[Aladrin]

Exactly. How are they "necessarily a bit behind" and how the hell is it necessary? If they were on their game, they could be AHEAD instead of behind for the same reason. Nope, this is just EA spinning another 'the PS3 isn't hard to program for' story.

Sony's SDK has -always- been harder to use than anyone else's. While they -are- working on a better, easier-to-use one, it's not out yet and companies are having to learn things the hard way and implement them by hand.

Dynasty Warriors Gundam recently shippe

Re:

[revengebomber]

It's sick to have that massive processing power and a tiny little bit of RAM. I can't imagine what they were thinking.

I can.
"Look, you can use the SPUs for on-the-fly decompression!"

Re:

[DrXym]

I still don't believe this 'they won't hit the limits of the PS3 for years' crap, though. The thing simply doesn't have enough RAM. It's sick to have that massive processing power and a tiny little bit of RAM. I can't imagine what they were thinking.

The PS3 has exactly the same amount of RAM as the 360. It has been partitioned so that CPU & GPU have optimized access to their own halves. But there is nothing to stop a game from storing data in graphics memory if it wants to. Conversely the 360 has unif

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[rbarreira]

I'm not sure, but the poster you were replying to might have been referring to the tiny memory in each SPU which is not main RAM.

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[DrXym]

I'm not sure, but the poster you were replying to might have been referring to the tiny memory in each SPU which is not main RAM.

Here's a very good overview [ps3forums.com] of the Cell processor including describing the SPUs. The gist of the article is that SPUs have 256k of local cache-like memory but its contents can change on the fly as data is pushed in and out.

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[MikeBabcock]

Anyone who's interested in how the cell is programmed is better off reading Dr Dobb's programming journal and its review of optimizing for the Cell (which they were very impressed with), or IBM's developer guides with code examples on how to use SPUs and their local cache memory. PS, SPUs have local cache and DMA transfer ability -- so you can work on up to 256k of data on your heap at once in the SPU but stream data via DMA to and from main memory constantly if you like. The really interesting bit is spl

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[Darkfred]

The problem is that while it may technically be feasible to feed 1 SPU as fast as it can process data. The round robin nature of the bus means that it is completely saturated doing a matrix operation on only 4 spus. In other words, without either more memory or more bandwidth to the SPUs the additional computation is useless (unless you are doing something exponentially more difficult than 4d matrix math. Which neither traditional game physics or graphics programming does.

Compare this with the 2 additional

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[MikeBabcock]

I can't speak directly from experience optimizing for each, but I'd say you've got your facts a bit screwy on bus bandwidth there from what I've both read and observed. Have a read of the Dr. Dobb's article It may be tricky, but the performance gains are worth the effort [ddj.com].

They comment on both the difficulty of fully optimizing for the cell as well as the immense capabilities of it:

In this article, we present strategies we've used to make a Breadth-First Search on graphs as fast as possible on the Cell, reac

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[Darkfred]

Even with their impressive optimization they state that in the best case 32% of their total time is still spend waiting on memory. And this is ONLY sending the graph nodes.

Now imagine that rather than a simple search the algorithm is required to do something useful, like math transforms at each graph node. Such as for physics inverse kinemetics. Increasing the data size for each node would quickly saturate the bus. (even more than it already is).

I am not saying it is slow by any means, just saying that as

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[Elkboy]

The PS3 version is being developed by EA UK, not Valve UK.

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[king-manic]

Share data across the ocean, what did they think, they wqould get over charged by their ISP for long distance surfing?!

Seriously, if you are incapable of syncing development between America and the UK you should not have a development team in both countries. I can see how the time difference could be a small problem, but how much does it take to only communicate through e-mail, or I know this is scary, but have one of the offices working different hours in order to keep them in touch.

Have you ever worked at