Switzerland Pursues Violent Games Ban 276
BanjoTed writes "We hear lots about the issues facing violent games in Australia, but the anti-games bandwagon is gathering pace closer to home — in Switzerland, to be precise. The Swiss government is gearing up to consider a total ban on mature games in the country."
Er... (Score:5, Funny)
"We hear lots about the issues facing violent games in Australia, but the anti-games bandwagon is gathering pace closer to home — in Switzerland, to be precise."
Are you sure you don't live in Austria?
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Not true. There are some at the Vienna zoo.
I'm Australian you instensitive clod!!! (Score:5, Funny)
This isn't closer to home for me:P~~~~
I can understand banning games (Score:5, Funny)
Some games are really bad, whether it be egregious content or age-inappropriate content.
But there's no need to get violent about it. A normal rational games ban would work just as well as a violent games ban.
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Re:I can understand banning games (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do they not ban all films, books, and CDs with content unsuitable for children as well?
Re:I can understand banning games (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't it be easier to ban children directly?
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I suggest mandatory blindfolds until 18.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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From Wikipedia:
The word "ambivalent" derives from the Latin prefix ambi, meaning "both" and valence which is derived from the Latin valentia, meaning "strength". It is common to use the word "ambivalent" to describe a lack of feelings one way or the other towards issues or circumstances. A more specific and conventionally accepted word to use in this case, however, would be "indifferent". A good way to remember proper usage is to remember that the prefix ambi means "both", so if you are "ambivalent", you have both positive and negative feelings towards something, or have feelings for both sides of an issue.
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Wow, you've changed my life! I suppose we could say that you've souffled it! I mean, you'd know what I meant, right?
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From Wikipedia:
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What drives a man to become neutral? A heart, to the core, gray with neutrality.
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We still have a conscription army which hands out an assault rifle to every male citizen over the age of 20.
What's wrong with that?
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Not really an issue, since anyone with a clean criminal record can purchase as much ammo as one wants.
Slipperly slope (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Slipperly slope (Score:5, Funny)
remember what happened to you as a child when you "said something mommy and daddy didn't like
All those years of expensive therapy for naught...
Thanks, asshole.
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Strangely enough, nobody screamed outrage when bans against games, graphics, etc. depicting child-p*rn were brought in...
So - where do you draw the line in which crimes should be 'legal' as game subjects, and which ones should not be?
Personally, I am somewhat sympathetic towards banning acts considered serious crimes in real life from being the subject of a game (by which I mean games requiring players to act out these types of crimes).
On the other hand - the games industry is a bit lazy as well - obviously
Re:Slipperly slope (Score:4, Funny)
Because I want to blow shit up...
Re:Slipperly slope (Score:5, Insightful)
Great idea.
If it's a crime it can't be the subject of a video game.
Any super hero game is out since it encourages vigilante behaviour which is a serious crime.
Uplink should be banned because it has the player commit serious crimes like breaking into computer systems without their owners consent.
Commander keen is out since obviously he flew without a pilots liscence while underage (encouraging kids to joy ride), operated firearms without a liscence(unless 8 year olde are commonly issued liscences for powerful weapons) and murdered large numbers of animals with no consideration for proper methods of humane slaughter.
Pacman is out since it encourages kids to consume pills which haven't been proscribed to them.
Dwarf fortress is out since it allows genocide, torture, theft and flooding of populated towns with magma.
The whole point of games is that they allow you to do things which would not be allowed in real life.
I don't know about you but I wouldn't find "Accountancy: The Game" much fun.
Similarly "Complying with building code regulations" is far less fun that lego.
"Turning found large qantities of cash into the proper authorities to see if anyone claims it" is far less fun than rogue.
Why limit it to computer games.
Any children playing guns with pieces of wood should be forcibly stopped from playing games in which they act out doing illegal things like kill people.
The blocks of wood should be confiscated and replaced with math books so that they can become productive members of society.
The whole point of games is that they're not real life.
I've never stabbed anyone despite playing as an assasin in oblivion.
I've never shot anyone despite playing doom and GTA.
I've never undermined by house with tunnels depite playing digdug
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This typo made my morning.
Don't forget it encourages the killing of useless government officials to ensure better functioning of society:)
Re:Slipperly slope (Score:5, Informative)
You're right! Those damn game makers should try making games which aren't violent. Maybe someone could make a game where you're in a band [metacritic.com], or maybe you're a DJ [metacritic.com]. How about sports? Someone should make a football game [metacritic.com], or a snowboarding [metacritic.com] game, or skateboarding [metacritic.com], or bowling [metacritic.com]!. If only someone had thought to make a game to tie into the Winter Olympics [metacritic.com]! There's such a lack [metacritic.com] of imagination [metacritic.com] in games these days.
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Why? They're illuminated pieces of glass or plastic. And, more importantly, noone was hurt when creating the data to illuminate said glass or plastic.
Would you support the distribution of a game where the aim is to brutally rape as many infants as possible?
What about one where the aim is to rape as many adults as possible?
What about where the aim is to have sex with as many adults as possible?
Most people would draw the line somewhere (possibly not even allowing the third). Many people will also draw a line somewhere with violent games.
Personally, I don't like violent games so I don't buy them, and if I had children I'd discourage them from playing at lea
Re:Slipperly slope (Score:5, Insightful)
You're changing the goalposts.
No I would not "support" any of those games.
I would however not oppose them since they do nobody an harm of any kind.
Freedom of speech is a bitch isn't it.
I don't like rape games so I don't buy them.
if I had children I'd discourage them from playing rape games.(hell I'd outright stop them)
I support minimum ages for purchasing them.
But there's zero reason to ban any of those.
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Chainsaw the Children [newgrounds.com]
No, I don't think it should be banned.
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remember what happened to you as a child when you "said something mommy and daddy didn't like"
I remember that. They explained what the long-term consequences of being impolite would be as an adult. Not sure quite what the relevance is. Perhaps you're projecting your own bad-parenting experiences on to the rest of us?
A great sign! (Score:5, Funny)
With this focus by Swiss leadership on the dubious social dangers of simulated violence, we can at least take heart knowing they've found solutions to all other social issues with demonstrated negative impacts.
I'm so happy to live in a world with such pragmatic leaders. We can always count on politicians for intellectually honest debate of issues and good faith efforts to fix the problems they can.
So nice to sleep easy knowing that representatives the world over don't let themselves get bogged down in baseless populist hysteria or abuse the power they're given to manipulate economies such that wealth is redistributed to their buddies.
I don't know what we'd do without our honest, hard working politicians. May your silver spoons never tarnish, you captains of hypocrisy.
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Switzerland...a country full of mountains where the majority of households has an assault rifle and 2/3's of the male population has military training [wikipedia.org].
I was rather surprised the first time I got a mail from a business associate saying he wasn't going to be available for a few weeks, on account of him going off to crawl through mud, shoot heavy weapons and other fun activities. Not quite something you'd expect the typical porsche driving hot-shot business exec to do, let alone enjoy.
Part of a general pattern (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Part of a general pattern (Score:5, Informative)
Switzerland has very little regard for free speech. Very little regard for things that are unpopular or disliked and has an aging, reactionary voter base.
Aaaaah Switzerland, this famous dictatorship... And you are supporting these claims how? Because I happen to live in that country but it doesn't seem to be the country you are describing. Free speech? Very little regard for things that are unpopular or disliked? What the hell are you talking about exactly? Do you have examples that make Switzerland stand out of the crowd of European countries? Agreed, the ban on minarets is not exactly the vote we can be most proud of. I would just like to point to the fact that Switzerland is no different from other European countries in that regard as was demonstrated by numerous polls in Europe following this particularly infamous vote. Also on votes asking whether or not to put a cap on immigration, the Swiss people have constantly voted no (there was several votes on this question since the 70s) and we have also accepted to embrace bilateral agreements with the EU and extend those agreements to the new EU members from Eastern Europe so I don't really see more reactionary voters than in any other western country. The only difference is probably that pretty much everything goes into a public vote and is hence very visible.
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Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index 2009 [rsf.org]
Freedom house [freedomhouse.org]
I'm sure you can find more evidence if you care enough.
Whether a human right has been dented with the minaret law is (potentially) still to be determined by some court. But I think it would sure be a tough case for the court. Determining whether towers in certain shapes can't be prohibited by a democratic and fair election isn't easy by itself, I bet. Add to that that these to
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Do you have examples that make Switzerland stand out of the crowd of European countries?
Yeah, you waited until 1971 to let women vote. WTF took so long?
Aaaaah Switzerland, this famous dictatorship
If less than half the country can vote, it is closer to a dictatorship than an democracy.
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Actually it is different, in that no other European country actually introduced a ban on Minarets. The way things work in Switzerland shows both the best and worst sides of a pure democracy. Specifically the ability for propagand
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The ban on minarets was based on a vote of the public on that specific issue. The Swiss people decided on this issue. You may not agree with the result, but at least the Swiss have the ability to vote on specific issues, as opposed to most other so called "democracies", where the only control the individual has is on electing a representative. In other words, your "democracy" is really just a democratic republic.
Re:Part of a general pattern (Score:5, Insightful)
Pure democracy is called "tyranny of the majority" for a reason.
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Usually by people who wouldn't get their own way in a true democracy. Well boo hoo, suck it up , thats what true democracy is about. But instead in the west we generally have the type of "democracy" where the elected leaders happily ignore the majority in favour of pressure groups and minorities who make lots of noise. How exactly is that anything other than the tyranny of the minority?
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It's called that for a reason.
In a true democracy the majority have all the power.
If 50% of the population vote yes then they can slaughter of all gays, black people or *generic unpopular group*
I guess boo hoo, suck it up , thats what true democracy is about.
Fortunatly most democracies are constitutional democracies where the power of the majority is limited so that groups which are not a large portion of the population don't get shit upon by the majority.
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"If 50% of the population vote yes then they can slaughter of all gays, black people or *generic unpopular group*
And the chances of that happening are ....
We're talking about majority voting here, not majority ethnic or sexual groups. Any society where the majority voted for that to happen is way beyond help anyway. But here in britain the majority of people want capital punishment brought back yet for years the politicians have thought they know best and have bowed to noise making "rights" groups. This is
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And the chances of that happening are ....
Pretty high considering how people tend to act.
In the US the majority in many of the southern states managed to keep laws that fucked over black people on the books for a long time.
The slaughtering was just an example anyway, there's thousands of other posibilities:
The majority voting to ban a minorities harmless religious practices.
The majority voting that a certain minority cannot use the same bathrooms or water fountains.
The majority voting to exclude a minority from certain jobs.
The majority voting to e
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Enough? [google.com]
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"Citation?"
GIYF
"As soon as you're talking about imposing one group's beliefs on another, the first group have no absolute right to that, even if they outnumber them."
Says who? Here in the UK we impose laws that forbid polygamy , female circumcision and numerous other things that some minority could whine are their "beliefs" because the majority of people in the UK think these things are wrong.
"criminalise them because of a minaret, you are severely infringing upon them"
Tough. Last time I looked no one had f
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I'm not sure you quite understand what people mean when they ask for a "citation".
"A November 2009 television survey showed a majority of the public have been in favour of its return, and noted "High profile crimes against children often prompt calls for the return of the death penalty"."
which is about as useful as a sack of horse shit when it comes to gathering real data.
Perhaps we should base all our policies on television surveys.
While we're at it lets replace the foreign office with the staff from the S
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There have been plenty of street surveys done too which are free of the bias based on the type of people watching the show. They've all shown a majority (albeit a small one) in favour of capital punishment.
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Exactly, that's what true democracy is about. It's about the public regulating what I can do on my own property and even inside my own home. It's about things that are harmless being banned just because some guy convinced the masses that that's the way to go. I would much rather live in a country with a constitution that secures certain basic rights even against every other person in the country. But yes, tyranny of the minority is worse than tyranny of the majority, it's just that both are pretty bad.
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Anyone claiming America is a democracy is an idiot anyhow, so your revelation is really a "No shit." situation.
Re:Part of a general pattern (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe it's tyranny, but the majority is just cattle...
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Why is free speech something to be voted on and taken away?
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Your ignorance of the Swiss political system is evident. Parties have very little impact on these issues. Do some research before making completely unfounded responses.
Politics of Switzerland [wikipedia.org]
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Switzerland has very little regard for free speech. Very little regard for things that are unpopular or disliked and has an aging, reactionary voter base. Frankly, I got far more worked up over the ban on minarets that they enacted last year. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/world/europe/30swiss.html [nytimes.com] That was a much more serious violation of basic rights. This? This is small potatoes.
How's not being allowed to build a tower (or four) a violation of human rights ? God won't listen if you've got a flat roof ? This is much more serious since these games are played in the confines of your own home by adults not bothering anyone else.
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No but it is blatantly discriminatory and unjust, and, like the ban on violent games, follow a pattern of banning anything that the majority dislike without regard to the rights of individuals.
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They can practice their religion in private, but when the bring it out in public they're imposing on everyone else. I for one don't want to look at minarets, much less hear the hideous caterwauling.
If a bunch of Sikhs turned up in Mecca and asked for permission to build a temple what do you think would happen?
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You can practice your religion in private but the moment you express it in public in any way you're imposing on everyone else.
I for one don't want to look at or hear *any symbols or expressions of your religion or lack thereof*
If a bunch of Sikhs turned up in Mecca and asked for permission to build a temple what do you think would happen?
I see, because some people in some places are intolerant, racist or bigoted we must all copy them and be intolerant, racist and bigoted.
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Can you name the "basic rights" that are being violated here? Nobody is stopping Muslims in Switzerland from practicing their religion, they are only not allowed to impose it on everyone else in the form of giant rockets (erect penises?) whose only purpose is to promote the said religion. Since they are not even be
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Can you name the "basic rights" that are being violated here? Nobody is stopping Muslims in Switzerland from practicing their religion, they are only not allowed to impose it on everyone else in the form of giant rockets (erect penises?) whose only purpose is to promote the said religion. Since they are not even being used for calling for prayer what else is their purpose?
Can you name the "basic rights" that are being violated here? Nobody is stopping Christians in Switzerland from practicing their reli
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The Mosques in Germany were infamous for getting a building permit for, say, 2 stories and then building a multistory monstrosity and ignoring any local goverment - either eating the fines or ignoring them relying on the Politically correct to shut up any opposition while they go ahead and dominate their neighbors sunlight and skyline.
Can't imagine it was much different in neighboring Switzerland.
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Some members of a group break the law, so you think all members of the group should be discriminated against?
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As a hopeful soon to be Swiss... I am actually proud of the minaret vote. Not the result because I would have probably voted no. No I am proud of the fact that the Swiss people can vote on these issues. Time and time again I see in other representative democracies votes being made that are only for a small minority of the people. Shall we call them lobbies? When lobbies take over then minorities take over, and then you get the mess called American politics.
The American political system is completely broke
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Democracy, as most of us understand, does not mean that the majority can do whatever they like without regard to the rights of the minority. It is illegal to be a Christian in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, or to have gay sex in most of Asia. The majority of Germans in the 1930s backed laws discriminating against Jews and Gypsies (a good many were happy with killing them as well). These laws are undoubtedly backed by the majority, but that does not make them right.
Human rights are more important than free spe
Re:Part of a general pattern (Score:4, Interesting)
Wait one minute... The majority of Germans back the laws against Jews and Gypsies? Please get real references here....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party [wikipedia.org]
Hitler came into power through a minority. His party never had the majority. The problem was that at that time Hindenburg was vehemently against the Nazi's, but to get a "functioning" government he allowed them to be a government. Think of it as follows in a modern context. Stephen Harper who is in the minority in Canada was allowed to be a government in by the governor general. The catch, and this is where things became dangerous once Hitler's party became the government one of their first acts was to impose absolutism. In a watered down way it was Harpers peroge where he stopped allowing the government to function.
I am not saying Harper is Hitler because he is not. What I am saying is that Harper and Hitler from a political action perspective were very very similar. Once Hitler's party gained full control the propaganda started...
BTW not every German was for Hitler. Neither my mother's family nor my father's family were Hitler supporters (and we are not Jewish either). My mother's parent's were "disabled" and hence were one of the ones who were considered sub-German quality. And my father's parents thought the Nazi's were trouble, they were industrialists my grandfather hated extremists! Though they were scared enough to not say much. As much as people enjoy the rights to free speech, right to demonstrate and a right to a fair trial. In those days you "disappeared".
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By the way, as a father of four, I gladly welcome any measure reducing the exposure of my kids to violent games
As a father of four, please feel free to restrict your children's exposure to violent games as much as you like.
Please remember that the country-wide ban on Wolfenstein in Germany just meant that every single game-playing teenager in the country had a pirated copy, and that was before the Internet was widespread. A ban won't stop children getting the games, it will just stop adults getting them legally.
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So that's 39 more years than in most muslim countries - and still counting.
Watch those crime rates climb! (Score:5, Interesting)
If we look at the youth crime rates in the US, they dropped of precipitously when the PS1 came out and have stayed low compared to previous decades ever since.
If the trend was the same in Switzerland, what happens when you take away that outlet?
Most of the drop in crime likely comes from resolution of boredom, but it probably serves as a panacea for some of the whackjobs out there too.
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Oh video games, is there any crisis you can't solve [smbc-comics.com] ?
Correlation is not causation (Score:2)
If we look at the youth crime rates in the US, they dropped of precipitously when the PS1 came out and have stayed low compared to previous decades ever since.
The Playstation was released on December 3, 1994.
The US price was $300.
$580, adjusted for inflation. CPI Inflation Calculator [bls.gov] That makes the market middle class and, stereotypically, suburban.
Windows 95 was released in August 1995. In 1996 AOL went to flat-rate monthly billing. IE4 arrives in 1997. The [middle class] kid in the mid-nineties was getti
Not just unemployment (Score:2, Insightful)
You know where this is going (Score:3, Interesting)
There are Flash games and soon there will be HTML5 games and then they will be discussing the introduction of internet censorship.
Closer to home? (Score:4, Insightful)
Some of us are Australian, funnily enough.
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Re:Closer to home? (Score:4, Funny)
What are you in for?
on positive side (Score:5, Informative)
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This is pretty much what I came here to post. Even if the Swiss Govt DOES pull this off the citizens can just deal with it themselves if enough of them care.
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Since more than half of voters are over 65, there is little chance for that.
The direct democracy is just a farce if you ask me. I have lived here for 10 years and I've never seen anything good come from it. The latest painful affair was the prohibition of minarets, which is just a blamage. I'm glad I don't have Swiss nationality or I'd need to be really ashamed for my people.
On the topic, there's still more weapons around here (from the army) than in almost any other country in europe. And often "accidents"
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>>I've never seen anything good come from it.
No that is a real study of a political system. Gee I lived in the US, Canada, UK, France, and well I come to the same conclusion its all a farce... Does that mean it's true? Not really...
The direct democratic system works in Switzerland if you understand the Swiss mentality. The minaret vote while people might disagree with the result is an example of a discussion on a topic that most people ignore. Let me throw out another example, gay marriages. I don't c
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Why would it?
You and your friend are right about the problem being terminology. When we talk about whether or not to allow gay marriage, we're talking about the institution of marriage. That is, the government's recognition of a partnership conferring a certain status, certain set of benefits (and drawbacks), etc. This is the same whether you choose to have a big church wedding
Turnout of voters (Score:3, Informative)
Since more than half of voters are over 65, there is little chance for that.
This is just wrong: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/17/22/publ.Document.89803.pdf [admin.ch] Turnout of voters by age (in 2003): 18-24: 33% 25-44: 35% 45-64: 52% 65-... : 57% (and average age is 31)
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Switzerland has more direct democracy than most countries. Even if the legislation passes parliament, if someone gathers 50k signatures against some law (in 100 days), he can cause national vote on this matter.
This sounds a lot like the situation in California. Maybe it works better in Switzerland, but here we have a ban on gay marriage, inconsistent property taxes and all kinds of crazy bond measures as a result.
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And with it a tyranny of the majority. Too much lawmaking by referendum and you get nonsense like the minaret ban and California's budget problems.
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What a strange idea. Both the UK and Australia are representative democracies. Neither of them are republics.
Bundled with child porn... (Score:2, Informative)
Won't someone... (Score:2)
Denken Sie bitte an die Kinder?
Pensez svp aux enfants ?
Pensi prego ai bambini?
Please think of the little wallabies eh mate? Now let's throw another shrimp on the barbie.
Thank you mother Helvetia (Score:2, Interesting)
If video games triggered real world behavior . . . (Score:2)
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If you're an American, you can't get much farther away than that. I think the antipode for much of the US is in the South Indian Ocean, somewhat near Australia, might even be the closest populated land if you disregard Antarctica.
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You're right, although as an Australia always think of the US as being only a 'moderate' distance away. Takes me 13-14 hours on a plane to get to LA or San Fran from here. It's almost double that (~23 hours) to get to UK/France etc though. So it seems weird to think of Australia as being 'super far' from the US.
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Oops, I meant "as an Australian, I always think of the US...". /. really needs an edit function.
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Well it is tucked away pretty far "down under" there.
Re:"Mature"? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:"Mature"? (Score:5, Interesting)
It isn't just games. I recently reread what I remembered as some excellent Sci-Fi books, Peter F Hamilton's Night's Dawn series. I still like the books, but I found the constant gratuitous sex scenes really got a bit wearing after a while. When I first read them, I found those sections titillating.
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It's shorthand for "for mature audiences". But you knew that.
That is not how those outside the gaming community sees the "mature" video game.
But the geek knows that too.
He also knows when the flit hits the shan which developers which will be at the center of the storm.
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Killing isn't torture, though the latter can lead to the former, and rape isn't in itself torture, although it can be used as such. Regardless, very few games require or even allow the player to do any sort of torturing, and rape would be illegal in some countries, banned for sale (but not for possession) in others, and theoretically legal to sell in the rest but practically not due to no store being willing to stock such a game, and thus generally not such a great business decision. Have you ever even play
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this quote needs to die, now.
until the end of the 15th century the eidgenossenschaft was fighting the habsburg, throughout the 16th and 17th century there was religous civil war all over switzerland. at the end of the 18th century france essentially conquered switzerland and started the helvetic republic. the last fights on swiss territory were in 1847 and there is only democracy since the 19th century.
that italy had a strong cultural development during the rennaissance has nothing at all to do with war and