Canadian Libraries Want $300,000 To Buy Games 229
AirborneGamer writes "The Toronto Public Library is asking for $300K to build up a collection of video games. They have not said if they will buy all types of games, or leave out the M-rated ones. As the City Councilor of Toronto said about the project, 'It may be the only time a young person comes in. It can act as a magnet to attract people. Once we get them in there, you can be darn sure that our librarians will be hard at work to introduce them to everything else the library can offer.' This is a good plan actually, and besides bringing kids into the library it will bring in parents and or guardians who otherwise may not visit the library on their own."
Honestly probably a good idea, (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Honestly probably a good idea, (Score:5, Insightful)
Books still do in-depth coverage that just isn't being done by the vast majority of the sites on the Internet.
They also have the advantage of better editing (compare, for example, to slashdot ...)
Libraries also do other things than just lend out books - if you or someone you know has pre-school kids, for example, you might want to check out their other programs. Ditto for pretty much any other age group, right up to seniors.
As a meeting place, they're also a lot safer than the local bar.
This is a great idea.
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As a meeting place, they're also a lot safer than the local bar.
It struck me as odd that the local library had a condom machine in the toilet, but maybe I'm just missing out on some of the more modern uses for a library.
I've actually only just joined the library. They have much newer books than Project Gutenberg, so I can read recent fiction for free (and since I can get through most novels in an afternoon, it's a lot cheaper than buying them). I'm currently in the process of moving house, and after creating a large stack of boxes of books I'm a lot less keen on th
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"What's a library, dad?"
"Oh, it's just a place where homeless people come to shave and go BM."
- Chris and Peter in Peter Griffin: Husband, Father...Brother? "
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The web is quick 'n' dirty information, like indeed on /. It's where you see it first - or well at least well before the information arrives in book form. Traditional newspapers are in between. Way faster than books though lagging well behind web sites.
Books are great for reference of slowly-changing information, though web sites and e-books have their merit in that realm too. Books are certainly unbeaten when it comes to historical reference.
Nevertheless I believe books are here to stay for a long time t
Not necessarily... (Score:5, Interesting)
As a meeting place, they're also a lot safer than the local bar.
My mother's assistant director at a suburban public library. They just developed a "youth center," filled with Wii & Playstation consoles to attract youth to the library and give them a place to hang out.
What they soon discovered was that it got more attention than they expected. Kids would just loiter there all day on the weekend, or all evening on weekdays. Many parents also dropped their kids off at the library in the morning and left them there all day. The library isn't built to be a babysitting service, but lots of parents didn't see it that way. They started having problems with graffiti, fights, turf wars, and other general mischief, and complaints from the general patrons have been on the rise.
Free video games in public places may attract kids, but they often attract the wrong kind of kids. The jury's out on whether or not the attraction actually increases awareness and utilization of the public library.
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Bait and Switch? (Score:5, Funny)
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I am unsure as to which of those activities is the greater torture.
Worked at our local library. (Score:3, Insightful)
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I don't think the ones in the Capitol Area District Library (near Lansing) do. :/
They used to charge to load out video games (but not computer games), at least during the Genesis/SNES era. When I say "charge" it was actually fairly cheap. Something like $1 for 5 days.
I'm pretty sure they don't do this any more
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The library of a friend of mine loans out not just games, but entire game systems. I'm not sure if teens check it out as much as older people, or which department it's kept in. I kind of doubt they're kept in the teen department where general circulation might miss them.
eReaders too, despite being in violation of the user agreement for one big name reader, who of course has gained many sales after patrons try it and subsequently buy their own.
DRM? (Score:5, Insightful)
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17 USC 109; what's the Canadian counterpart? (Score:3, Informative)
I'm sure there's a solution for this, as you can rent games from lots of places other than the library, right?
At least in the United States, 17 USC 109 reserves the right to rent or lend copies of computer programs exclusively to the copyright owner with three exceptions: 1. nonprofit libraries, 2. software embedded into a device that can't be copied out of the device, and 3. console games. So nonprofit libraries are the only place that one can try PC games without a demo before buying them. What does Canada's copyright statute say about this?
Good idea, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
All the popular titles use some kind of DRM. Did they keep this in mind? What will the publishers say? Are there for rent versions or will the librarians just have to go and unlock the games through dozens of different hotlines or however this works?
Or are they only talking about console games?
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And that is exactly why you should do what ever you can to get as many games as possible into the library. If you want someone champing fair use to the industry, you couldn't do better the librarians.
Librarian Tactics (Score:5, Funny)
Ooh, Super Mario Brothers! Well, if you like this, you may also like:
The Encyclopaedia of Plumbing
The Mushroom Index: food, fun, or poison?
Carnivorous plants of South America
The Princess Diaries
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Mushroom labeled EAT ME (Score:2)
Ooh, Super Mario Brothers! Well, if you like this, you may also like:
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland by Carroll. The SMB1 team cited this book as an inspiration.
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I'd never made that connection before, that's pretty cool! :)
Wait what, this is new? (Score:3, Informative)
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Malware was spread during the 80s and 90s with floppies as it was easier to manipulate the data once it left the manufacturer.
Most libraries only had CD versions of software because it couldn't be tampered with or accidentally erased or over written as easily.
This is News? (Score:2)
We have video games in our libraries (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm an American living in Norway and I was shocked to find that my local library has a large collection of Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 games that can be checked out. They also have a sound-proof room where you can play Guitar Hero and Rock Band, as well as a large collection of contemporary music CDs with everything from Metallica to obscure Norwegian music. You can listen to them there or check them out. My wife checked one out and lost it, only finding it several months later and they didn't even make her pay a fee or a late charge. I've been here a while now but back when I had just moved here and was learning Norwegian, I used to go in and use the computers. They had children's games with everything from Oregon Trail-type clones to Harry Potter. It helped me learn vocabulary that wasn't in my books and get a working knowledge of the language, not just the grammatically-correct style that almost no one speaks. One day, a new bitchy librarian decided that I wasn't allowed to use the ones with the games on them because they're "for children", even though there are ten of those PCs and hardly any children in there. Norwegians can be like that, but I digress. I never counted how many PCs they actually have in there, but there are at least 30 for surfing the web, research, or looking through the library's online catalogues. Interestingly, the ones for games run Windows and all the others run Linux.
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I am an American Living in America, and my local libraries have video games, mostly Wii, PS3, Xbox360, I have not seen any computer video games. By local libraries I mean 37 in my county alone with the ability to get materials from any library in northern NJ.
http://mainlib.org/ [mainlib.org]
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I am an Oregonian living in pre-secessionist Cascadia/Ecotopia. Our libraries have books, DVDs, audio CDs, graphic novels/zines, newspapers, magazines, broadband web access, and Wi-Fi. No musical instruments, electronics, software, or games.
Our libraries are crowded with people from all over the world. Trying to learn how to live and thrive in their new country. After our separation from the USA, which will probably happen within twenty years, I hope that they choose to stay with us. E
I'm sure Dubai and UAE have nice libraries too... (Score:2)
...as an American living in Norway, you ARE aware that Norway is a state awash in petrodollars, yes?
It pretty much destroys the point I think you were trying to make, ie "lookit all the cool stuff they have in their libraries, they don't even charge late fees!!"
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The Netherlands (Score:3, Interesting)
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I now live in rural southern Ohio. My library has a modest selection of DVDs, no PC games, and one aisle of Manga, graphic novels, science fiction, and fantasy - and most of the sf/fantasy section is Star Wars novels, fantasy series aimed at idiots, and similar dreck. Not ONE Heinlein novel. No Zelazny. No Iain M. Banks. No ... but you get the picture.
I feel like I'm living in a third-world country, here - or at least a third-rate one ...
Call me conservative (Score:3, Interesting)
But I hate the idea of tax money going to frivolous things like this. Personally, I can't stand that my library lends DVDs and music too. Public libraries, in my opinion, should solely be about self-improvement and betterment. Books, movies, and music should be classics, self-help, technical, etc. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have the library just be a surrogate Blockbuster/Netflix/Gamefly.
Re:Call me conservative (Score:5, Insightful)
Libraries are there to upkeep culture and the arts, and modern media and video games are very much a part of our culture. Just because something isn't "Moby Dick" doesn't mean it isn't poignant or worthwhile.
Re:Call me conservative (Score:5, Insightful)
We won't call you "conservative," we'll just call you short-sighted and ill-informed.
The "classics" for which you pine were once upon a time a previous generation's pop culture, in very many cases. And I wish I had a dollar for every kid who picked up a copy of Bullfinch or Hamilton after playing a game in the "God of War" series -- or watching a season of Xena, for that matter.
Culture is one long conversation, the present building upon the past, creating the shapers of its future. Guys like you who want to pick, choose, and control aren't enabling Art, you're obstructing her.
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Call me conservative also, but I think libraries should be places of knowledge. I think the intentions of the Toronto libraries are good, but 'getting kids through the door with video games' is IMO naive -- as in it doesn't work like that (from my experience).
When pop CDs/DVDs were introduced at my local library, it slowly turned into a 'hang-out' space where chatter was ok because the librarians didn't want to confront or play the 'stickler librarian' role. Did it achieve the goal of getting non-reader
Not conservative (Score:3, Insightful)
Short sighted would be more correct. I do understand that it can be confusing with Neo-Cons destroying everything conservative.
DVD lending has given me and my kids looks into other cultures. An example of that would be Anime.
An added bonus is that going to the library is a normal experience for my children.
"Public libraries, in my opinion, should solely be about self-improvement and betterment. "
So no sci-fi? romance?
who do you think you are where you get to tell people they need for self-improvement and be
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Don't presume it's tax dollars. At a large library here, they are no longer buying DVDs in favor of Bluray because the donor who provides money for the video collection now wants Bluray.
Also don't forget, the form of media delivery doesn't impact it's value of "self-improvement and betterment".
Libraries were formed as surrogate book stores, specifically to bring content to a wider audience. They are currently in a significant shift as their patrons are demanding fewer books and more online/electronic reso
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Kids today can read?
Maybe I was wrong and they're just ignoring the sign on my lawn that says no trespassing. On the plus side it gives me an excuse to yell, "Hay you kids!!! Get the hell off my lawn!!". Which oddly enough I wished I had an excuse to use when I was in high school. Huh, be careful what you wish for.
Following the path of US libraries (Score:2)
Our local library does this. they have XBox 360, PS3, and Wii games available (I think PS2 as well, but not sure). It's definitely a great way to get folks into the library and see what else might be in there.
I thought this already would happen (Score:2)
Video games now serve that function and having them in libraries is probably long overdue. The only issue I see is which console to support. Unl
Typical government inefficiency (Score:3, Funny)
Why can't they just download them for free like everyone else?
An even better idea. (Score:2)
Why don't they just spend a couple o' grand on porno.
I remember my formative years spent in the school library, searching the dictionary for all the rude words. While I was there, I noticed some other books as well.
Logic fails (Score:2)
You could convert a library into a cybercafe or a disco, and that may atract more/different type of people. But thats not really atracting more people to a library, more like atracting people to a cybercafe/disco that use to be a library.
The idea sould be make the library more interesting, that could be adding a cybercafe to it, anything really, but thats that "fit" the existing things, so the core of the experience is not damaged.
If you want to make a romantic sci-fi movie, your first step can't be to drop
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You are stupid.
Hoe id checking out a book, different from a movie? CD? Video game?
Unless 'library' means something else in Canada then it does in the US, then this fits in perfectly with what they do. Mayne they use a metric library~
Good plan (Score:2)
Maybe some locals can donates some game that aren't used too much?
Cheaper and more effective (Score:2)
Sorry, I have to Harry Potter their delusions (Score:2)
This is exactly what a good library does (Score:2)
Same Result with Strategy Guides? (Score:2)
Wouldn't they achieve the same result by carrying game strategy guides? That way kids are actually learning to go to a library to use it for research purposes. Some may not agree that the research topic is worthwhile, but I can't believe those detractors would think video games themselves would hold more research value.
One City Councilor... (Score:2)
A link to a blog with no sources or names. Great.
Here's a link to the actual story [thestar.com] with things like details
Some notes:
Brick and Mortar (Score:2)
Much like many older "brick and mortar" stores have had to do to survive over the years, libraries need to follow suit. They either need to feature a very strong online presence (as in actually useful) or merge their resources together into a massive central location that's easily accessible and relatively clean/safe.
In recent years, libraries have gotten a bad rap for stock-housing materials that are so outdated that the materials themselves are either no longer relevant or are now historically inaccurate.
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Let's just hope that EA don't set the sue-monkeys on them.
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I want to create a free movie lending library that streams to Roku boxes and only allows one person to watch a movie at a time per disc owned but legalities make it difficult. It's probably legal to do but to do it would require removing the DRM, to transcode the content into the right format, which is illegal. :p
The scenario you're describing is only illegal in the US, this article is about Canada. Format shifting is legal up here.
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Yeah but to be fair, if you remove CSS then webpages look like crap.
Variation between countries (Score:2)
This is also illegal within Germany and Austria.
But just across the border, in Switzerland, this is allowed
(as long as the breaking was done in order to produce copies which fall under the usual exceptions of the copyright law).
Welcome to the madness of the DMCA-euro-clones.
I hope the day we end-up with Euro- (and CH-billateral) wide law, we end up with a more reasonable variant (which tolerates fair-use exceptions).
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Why bother? The libraries already have DVDs on the shelf. Most suburban public library branches have hundreds of titles available. Plus they are all listed on the web and available for reserve. Go to the local branch, check them out, watch them for a week, copy them (with DVD decrypter or DVDshrink) if you choose to, bring them back, repeat.
All legal, all free, all under-the-radar of the corporate monkeys and their lawyers.
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Not all libraries have DVDs. Mine only has books.
You claim the Internet will kill libraries? (Score:5, Interesting)
Okay, where can I go to find free books, movies and music in physical formats, online? I don't want to download to a screen reader. I want an actual physical book. One I can take out on my lawn and shake at you kids, yelling, "Get off my lawn or I'll throw this book at you!"
Now, I have a further question. Name one single media technology that has killed off any previous media technologies. Okay, okay, the telegraph finally died a few years ago after a hundred and fifty plus year run. But I still read books, see plays, listen to radio, watch TV, and go to movies. All of which have been pronounced 'dead' by various prognosticators at one time or another. All of whom have been wrong. I don't think the Internet is going to kill anything off. And there is a sizable group of people for whom their local public library IS their Internet access point: low income and homeless people.
The purpose of libraries is to pay for an externality: an educated and cultured citizenry, one of the cornerstones of any democracy. Because every citizen gains value from having an educated and cultured populace, but baring government intervention only the individual pays for it, the price point of culture and information does not reflect its true value to society, and we need things like libraries and public schools.
Now, some people do not see the cultural or educational value in video games, but I ask you this: how will people who know nothing of video games vote correctly on issues regarding video games? Will they just listen to kooks who tell them video games are evil? If they have to buy or rent games, they may not bother to check them out for themselves. But if anyone can check out a game from their local library. maybe a few people will actually look for themselves when someone says so and so game is evil, immoral, and bad for kids. This is a good thing for society, and worth our tax dollars.
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Your model airplane hobby is not important to your function as a citizen of the US. Education is. Libraries provide a valuable function to society. Being a model airplane pilot does enhance your ability to contribute to society. It is not a positive externality like being educated is. Societies around the world have agreed on the value of public libraries for hundreds of years. You just don't feel like paying your fair share for the benefits you receive. Fortunately, we live in a democracy, and we can vote
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Why would they? This library in St. Louis, Missouri offers Wii [slcl.org], Xbox360 [slcl.org] and Playstation 3 games [slcl.org]
Is this rare? Do other US libraries not offer the latest video games for consoles?
Re:Excellent example.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You notice we never see stories when libraries want to spend money on graphic novels, or money on subscriptions to teen magazines, or money on the hundreds of other items that are only of interest to a few people. You're not going to believe this, but libraries in the Chicago system have (gasp!) chessboards! Call out the Tea Parties!
But we're supposed to all go into paroxysms of anti-government outrage when a library system wants to buy...games.
You know how many soldiers $300,000 would train and outfit? None! You get ONE KID who comes from a family too poor to buy games and he learns to love games and grows up to start a company that makes games and you've made many times that much money in taxes.
God damn I am tired of people who've enjoyed the fruits of public spending and are now complaining about anybody else doing so.
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God damn I am tired of people who've enjoyed the fruits of public spending and are now complaining about anybody else doing so.
Interestingly, you're the only one I've seen (meta-)complaining about this.
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>>>God damn I am tired of people who've enjoyed the fruits of public spending and are now complaining about anybody else doing so.
I never set foot in a government-funded library my whole life, and I seem to have made out okay (engineer - two degrees). And now that we have the internet, such that I or anybody else can download literally millions of free books (or just read wikipedia), the government-funded libraries are even less necessary.
Like the horse buggy whip, they have been obsoleted by newe
Re:Excellent example.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Good thing that public libraries provide computers in most, if not all, parts of the U.S. Otherwise, I might say that there's a whole bunch of disenfranchised people in inner cities who can't afford internet access.
Oh, wait. Those internet-enabled computer in the libraries that anyone can use? They're very much a suburban thing in the quantity needed to serve the community.
Re:Excellent example.... (Score:5, Insightful)
You have no idea what its like to be poor, do you? Your anecdotal bullshit about 'inner-city' people with cellphones is ludicrous. Rich and middle class people do live in and visit inner cities. Did you count all the people without them? No. Of course not.
Let me ask you a question. Did you go to public school? If so, you received a public benefit that exists for the same reason libraries do. A democracy can't function without an educated populace. Would you deny that education to older people who may have missed out on a good public education for whatever reason? If so, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. You benefit from being a part of a more educated populace. Therefore, your taxes should go to help pay for that benefit.
Over half of all low income families use the public library as their primary Internet connection. You try making ends meet with a family living on $30,000 a year, and that with two breadwinners both of whom probably work multiple jobs. See if you can afford that $100 computer plus $7 a month when you are already forced to choose between buying heat, medicine, or food this month. They don't have access. It is true. You can lie to yourself about poverty all you like, if that helps you sleep soundly at night, but it doesn't change the facts. Just keep telling yourself, "The world is fair. Good people are rewarded. Bad people are punished. Everyone gets a fair shot. The only reason people fail is through their own lack of effort." but don't be surprised when people of conscience do not respect you.
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I assume you got your degrees from private universities?
Re:Excellent example.... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure if you're an idiot or a troll ... I simply do not believe you can have earned two degrees, in any subject, without entering a library. Or is there some catch, your university library is not "government funded"? And since when is Wikipedia a citeable source for any academic work?
On reflection, I'm leaning more to "troll".
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And now that we have the internet, such that I or anybody else can download literally millions of free books (or just read wikipedia), the government-funded libraries are even less necessary.
You do realize that not all books are alike, yes? Even if there are three million free books available online, that's only a sixth of the books estimated to exist worldwide. And an in-depth book is better than Wikipedia for anything but the most cursory look at a topic. There's a reason Wikipedia requires sources, and there's a reason that most of those sources are books--many of which, I might add, you can't find on Gutenberg Project or Amazon. Libraries may indeed outlive their usefulness, but it has
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God damn, I'm tired of people using this as an excuse to justify whatever god damn lame-ass public spending program they can dream up* and tax whomever it takes because they owe it to the rest of the country. And if they don't pay their "fair share" (which is as big as we say it is) they're being unpatriotic leeches. Doubly so for businesses who don't go out of their way to pay the
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Yet when I offer to use the facilities in order to teach a class _for free_ to these same people about how to use Open Source technologies in order that they might be able to take a 'clunker' system
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What internet money, guy?
Re:Excellent example.... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm not your guy, buddy.
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I'm not your buddy, friend.
Re:Not really a library. (Score:5, Funny)
...I wouldn't consider half the media today to tell a congruent story.
Yeah, it's fairly rare that two stories nowadays are exactly the same shape and size. They always do things like change the words, and use different words. Something about "copyright" law.
P.S. You probably meant coherent.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
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Another word for a code "library" (Score:2)
Out of interest, what word do you use to refer to a file containing position-independent code which can be linked into an application at run time and provides a set of documented features?
That's an object code archive. The tool to make them is even called 'ar' because is an archiver.
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Maybe we should stop calling them libraries. Library comes from Liber and refers to "inner bark" or wood, and refers to books made out of trees. I don't think music, videos and games are made of trees, nor are they rooted in trees. Maybe they do in the sense of telling stories, but I wouldn't consider half the media today to tell a congruent story.
I guess the question then, is what is a "Library"?
Literally, I suppose, the word means a place that stores/lends books... But is that really all a library is? Just books?
I guess the question is more what a library is supposed to accomplish... Is it literally just a storehouse for piles of bound paper? Is that all we're worried about - just collecting a bunch of paper together?
To me, it seems, the value was always the information that was stored in the paper.
Some of it is factual information, which makes
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Maybe we should stop calling them libraries. Library comes from Liber and refers to "inner bark" or wood, and refers to books made out of trees.
Your username "kiehlster" is derived from the word "keister" which refers to the buttocks. It's thus fitting that you come in here and make an ass of yourself. At any rate:
library - late 14c., from Anglo-Fr. librarie, from O.Fr. librairie "collection of books," noun use of adj. librarius "concerning books," from L. librarium "chest for books," from liber (gen. libri) "book, paper, parchment," originally "the inner bark of trees," probably a derivative of PIE base *leub(h)- "to strip, to peel".
Based on the
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Actually, "kiehlster" is derived from the German "kielmister" or "kiel" which is a surname of Viking decent from the commonwealth of Kiel, Germany. It refers to the the keel of a boat and is thus considered to mean "ship's captain". But you know us viking ship captains. We're always screwy in some way.
And yes, the strippers would certainly recruit more interest in public libraries. Maybe one could write some legal rebuttal to illegal prostitution in this way. After all, we approve of public libraries
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Answer is for libraries to require parents to supervise their kids at all times.
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Libraries, the OLD babysitter (Score:2)
Libraries as Babysitters is not a new thing. It has been going on at least since the 1980's. Google 'unattended children in library' for more information.
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Post a sign. Children must be supervised. When you find unsupervised children, call the police. Have their parents cited. Problem solved. Leaving your children unsupervised at the library is no different from leaving them unsupervised at any business, or street corner for that matter. If the child isn't old enough to supervise himself, that's neglect.
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Um .... have they heard about DRM?
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Most PS3, Wii, and XBoX games don't have DRM that goes beyond needing to be run on an actual un-modded console.
You're right about renting out PC games in a library. It just wouldn't work. Not with activation required, one-time use CD keys, etc.. But renting out console games?
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It might be console games. Over here you rent playstation games and consoles at video stores for some years now, and before that those old golden china and sega cartriges.
I think this is a good idea, it is good to get kids into libraries again - I spent a lot of time in my local library as a kid. Good memories...
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I thought they did a great job, although ultimately I agree with you. I don't really see a point in the hundreds of billions of dollars athletes consume in order to compete. Really the Olympics are just an event where every country stands around and measures their penis size. I really feel bad for the athletes that don't do well despite the funding they receive. And by "don't do well" I mean they could still kick the crap out of any normal person in their sport, but they might have had an off day or were 1s
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The kids that want to go to the library already do. Their parents usually are readers also and tought them by example.
The idea is to give those kids who don't go another reason to go. If they don't go because they're not that interested in books, then they might go because of games. Once there, they might discover that books (or one of the other things on offer) hold something of interesting for them as well.
Also, I'm not sure why a kid would want to go to the library to play video games. Most kids have what they need to play at home.
Seems like wasted money to me.
The same reason people go for books -- not everyone can afford to buy every game they would like to experience. Most kids from a certain economic background might "have what they need", but there are significant sectio
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I don't think you can bait and switch kids into reading this way, but that's not the only reason libraries should carry video games. Video games are a new medium that's quickly becoming part of our cultural heritage. It's just as important that libraries preserve and distribute them as any other medium. It's just as important for a young person to be exposed to masterpieces like Ocarina of Time as it is for them to listen to the Hot Fives and Sevens, or read Where the Red Fern Grows.
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It would be a good idea if the games weren't going to be out of date almost as soon as they're bought. What good is a huge collection of outdated games?
Games don't lose their value over time. Just like movies and books, a great game is simply a great game, even when it has been out for decades.
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In fact, I would love it if my Library had several consoles and a collection of games for lend from 10 or 20 years ago.