Valve's Newell Thinks PS3 Needs To Be "Open Like a Mac" 348
Eraesr writes "Apparently Valve boss Gabe Newell thinks the PS3 needs to be more of an open platform, drawing a comparison to Apple's Mac platform. In an interview with 5BY5.TV, he said he would like to see the PS3 be 'open like a Mac' instead of being 'more closed like a Gamecube.' 'Platform investments, like the Mac, are difficult because you have to be aware of what direction that platform is moving,' Newell said, referring to the firm's recent move onto Macs with its titles and distribution service Steam. 'We need to target platforms that do a better job of looking like where we want to be in a few years.'"
Yeah (Score:5, Funny)
Open like a Mac, I get it,
kind of like, Secure like a Windows?
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Oh, and before I forget, if you think it's good to be Open like a Mac, why did it take you the better part of a decade to port all your games over?
Not that we're complaining, but I had to put up with years of Mac users complaining about it.
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From developer.apple.com [apple.com]:
HFSX is an extension to HFS Plus to allow additional features that are incompatible with HFS Plus. The only such feature currently defined is case-sensitive filenames. (Emphasis added).
It's not supposed to be compatible. At all. This is like complaining about KDE not compiling properly with a "perfectly sane" configuration of Hurd running on ARM. Even Adobe's CS2 and CS3 applications don't run [adobe.com]
Re:Yeah (Score:5, Informative)
You are completely misunderstanding that sentence. HFSX is incompatible with HFS+ because a filesystem B-tree sorts its keys in different ways depending on whether it is using case-sensitive or case-insensitive matching. As a result, at a volume format level, HFSX includes low-level changes that are incompatible with ancient tools that work with HFS+ volumes. If we were talking about a disk utility like DiskWarrior (which, incidentally, has supported HFSX since way back before it even became a GUI-selectable formatting option in the non-server version of Mac OS X)---an application that mucks around in the raw volume B-trees by accessing disk blocks directly, then yes, it would break when it encountered these volumes, and break massively. As a general rule, 99.99999% of application developers should not be anywhere near the low-level bits that the technote you referenced refers to.
We're not talking about software that works with the volume format directly here. We're talking about software that opens files by passing hard-coded path names with incorrect case. Such apps also don't work when your home directory is:
And so on. That incompatibility list is only going to get longer as time moves forward. These days, case insensitive filesystems like HFS+ are the exception, not the rule.
Moreover, Apple has never in any way even HINTED that not working on case-sensitive volumes is an acceptable practive, and even published Technote 2096 [apple.com] that basically says the precise opposite of what you're implying. Because the filesystem underlying iPhone OS is case sensitive, iPhone developers are strongly discouraged from building iPhone applications on case-insensitive HFS+ volumes. On case-insensitive volumes, the simulator can't catch bugs caused by case sensitivity mistakes, so when you finally get the app on an actual device and it fails miserably, you'll be scratching your head.
In short, if your app doesn't work on case-sensitive volumes, now would be a good time to fix it, particularly if you want iPhone developers, web developers, etc. to use your software.
No, this is like complaining about KDE running fine on an EXT3 volume, but crashing in bizarre, inexplicable ways when you migrate your system to EXT4. It's a sign that the developer couldn't be bothered to use correct capitalization in hard-coded filenames within their code. The ONLY relevant difference between case-sensitive and non-case-sensitive filesystems in Mac OS X is that if you write code that tries to load "~/Library/application support/whatever" instead of "~/Library/Application Support/Whatever", it will fail on the case-sensitive filesystem. The ONLY bugs it causes are entirely due to sloppy, bad coding on the part of the developer. Thus, software that won't work on HFSX volumes are like a giant shining beacon that screams "We don't know how to write software."
Re:Yeah (Score:5, Interesting)
NTFS, which dates back to the early 1990s, is hardly a modern filesystem. It is also a case-sensitive filesystem under the hood. This is masked by a case-insensitivity shim for applications accessing it through the Win32 API, but applications that use lower-level APIs get case-sensitive behavior. So I'll see your NTFS and raise you basically every single filesystem created in the past two decades.
Exactly. It's 2010. If twenty years of every single new filesystem being case-sensitive hasn't gotten people to realize that this is the direction technology is moving, I don't know what will....
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You were speaking from the developer level when you were talking about case insensitivity. 95% of people own a computer that is case-insensitive in the practical sense. The default setting in OSX is case insensitive, and most people never go through the trouble to change it. Doing so requires either above average technical skill to do it the hard way, or way above average technical skill to do it the easy way.
I cannot see how you can honestly say that case insensitivity is the exception and not the rule
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And developers using file access APIs in Windows can get case sensitive behavior. It's just a single FILE_FLAG_POSIX_SEMANTICS flag to CreateFile [microsoft.com] and friends. It's actually easier to do that in Windows because it doesn't require a reformat and reinstall.
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A user certainly should not have to care, or even deal, with case-sensitivity.
At which point does the user ever have to care about case-sensitivity? You can search case-insensitive on a case-sensitive file system without any issue and when you want to open a file, you just click an icon anyway. It really doesn't make a difference for the average user. The only area that I have seen where it does make a difference is when it comes to programming, people on Windows often end up messing up their #include directives with incorrect case, which then causes trouble on Unix systems, but its
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The Portal game itself crashes on launch if you try to run it on anything other than the most recent GPUs.
Runs fine on my on my Geforce 8600gt. Not exactly state of the art by any means (3+ year old card).
Have no idea why you would choose to complain after choosing to use case-senstive hfs... Why do you need that ,btw?
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Nope. HFSX is fully supported and is most certainly not deprecated. You're thinking of the ancient UFS format that has been deprecated for a while. UFS is not only deprecated, but was actually demoted to read-only in Snow Leopard.
The reason UFS is deprecated has nothing to do with case sensitivity, though. It's deprecated because A. it's very, very slow compared with HFS+, B. it doesn't support extended attributes or POSIX files
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Show me where any Apple web page says that. It most certainly is not discouraged in any way, shape, or form.
I can think of quite a few security bugs over the years in Apache that have been specific to case-insensitive filesystems, plus *countless* other bugs in web applications, etc. So my server is case-sensitive, and my laptop is also cas
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Oh, and enough to make parts of it refuse to work right, regardless of one's prior UNIX knowledge. I'll never forgive them for the "Internet Sharing" setting, which regularly fails even between a pair of Macs...then when you start trying to troubleshoot it you find that while natd is running, there's no natd.conf ...those bastards have wrapped it up in some proprietary binary object. Thanks Apple; you've successfully reinvented the wheel, and made it square to boot.
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Obviously you'll need to put the whole thing into a script and run it after the system is up.
Your mileage may vary...
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Nothing like a completed unsubstantiated assertion in response to someone who not only gripped but supported his complaint with a specific example... an example you ignored/had no answer to.
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Nothing like a supporting someone who thinks OS X, which is a FreeBSD/NetBSD frankenstein, which are "UNIX-like" operating systems, is UNIX (when it's not). It has been certified as UNIX 03 compliant from 10.5 onwards. Before this certification OS X was also "UNIX-like" - which means it didn't comply to any standard and one might find their "UNIX knowledge" a little out of place in any of the UNIX-like variants.
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Mac and Open together in a sentence is a Oxymoron [wikipedia.org].
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Re:Yeah (Score:5, Insightful)
You realise that the comparison is against a PS3, right?
Besides, the Mac is a fairly open platform. You can get kernel code and Webkit code under a genuine open source license. Good luck getting Windows NT kernel code and IE rendering engine as open source projects. Apple's developer tools are built around gcc, and the default shell is bash. Apple provides X11 support out of the box, so you can build an app for a Mac, and trivially move it to another platform if you choose to rely only on open standards.
Apple as a company may be psychotic, but I don't know why people insist the Mac is so hilariously closed.
I see the Windows fanboi mods are out in force (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no possible way that parent post deserves a troll mod, except in Windows-fanboi land. What he says is exactly right: in certain ways -- specifically, code availability, which is exactly the sense in which "open" is most often used on Slashdot -- the Mac is indeed more open than Windows. As another poster points out, hardware-wise Windows is more open, but think about the subject of the story! Sony isn't going to start writing OSs for other companies' game systems any time soon, but more information about the PS3 would help draw developers to the platform. The type of "openness" which Valve is calling on Sony to practice with regards to the PS3 is exactly the type of openness Apple practices with OS X, not that which Microsoft practices with Windows.
Re:You have a strange definition of open (Score:5, Insightful)
It's really very simple. Apple is a hardware company that also makes software. Microsoft is a software company that also makes hardware.
Apple doesn't care what software you run on a Mac. Microsoft doesn't care what computer you run Windows on.
Apple wants you to buy a Mac. Microsoft wants you to buy Windows.
I was going to say (Score:2)
Ubiquitous like a Zune.
Re:Yeah (Score:5, Insightful)
No, open like a Mac compared to, say, a Gamecube. None of you going ROFL have actually watched even the first five minutes of the interview, have you? It's boring, it's annoying, but at least it clears up that misconception. None of you (so far, as I'm posting this) are actually discussing the subject of the article, anything he actually says.
Oh, and just to make it clear, I think Mac sucks (1mousebuttonLOLOLOLkthxbai) and Valve is a bunch of greedy, uninspired whores. I'm not defending them, I don't care at all about this.... I just think y'all are tards too, for talking to/about strawmen exclusively. Cheers.
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At least the Ubuntu video player sorts out all of the necessary codec details by itself including "obscure" things like what you find on a commercial DVD (mpeg-ps container and AC3 audio).
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
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Mine is pegged to 11 good fellow. Actually I think it just hit 12. So with that let me just say, WE'RE ALL DOOMED! Doomed, doomed, DOOOMED!
You must have dropped a rod then (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, my irony detector is overloading.
You might want to look around for a large ferrous source then, because it's not the Mac setting it off. The Mac is a very open platform. The iPhone is a rather closed platform. Unlike other vendors, you get choice in what degree of openness you prefer when choosing platforms to purchase.
word association (Score:2)
Gabe : thin
Re:word association (Score:5, Funny)
That's another month for Episode 3.
Thanks a lot buddy! >:|
Not necessarily ironic (Score:5, Insightful)
C'mon. It may be a legitimate comparison on the continuum of platform comparision.
"Sony, you've made the PS3 so closed and restrictive that you make the Mac look like Richard Stallman's promised land."
Re:Not necessarily ironic (Score:5, Informative)
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It's a bit better than this heap of flaming dung... well except for the parts that are worse.
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It's open in many more ways than that... e.g. Apple wrote a BSD'd compiler for C like languages (clang) which for C and objective-c beats the pants of gcc in almost every way, and is getting *damn close* on the C++ front.
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It's open in many more ways than that... e.g. Apple wrote a BSD'd compiler for C like languages (clang) which for C and objective-c beats the pants of gcc in almost every way, and is getting *damn close* on the C++ front.
Er, clang/llvm have some grand goals, but so far, they very clearly don't "beat the pants off gcc in almost every way."
gcc optimizes better, has been ported far more widely, supports many more languages (and of course in cases like C++, is a much more complete compiler -- clang C++ support is still pretty basic), and of course is much more mature. One of clang/llvm's widely touted advantages -- faster compilation -- is shrinking as the compiler grows. clang/llvm's optimization will improve with time, but
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If OS X is open source, how come nobody's made some modifications to not check for Apple's BIOS, and then recompiled it to run on an IBM PC Clone?
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Not "if," OSX has a lot of open source in it. You can download the kernel (named Darwin) and some utilities from their open source website [apple.com]. Another good web page with Apple's open source software information is http://www.apple.com/opensource/ [apple.com] . There you can see what project is being used by the different Apple applications or utilities.
Mac's do not use BIOS, they use EFI [wikipedia.org].
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Mac is pretty open. ... locked to apple hardware
Is it really still open then? This is the source of the oxymoron. That's a pretty restrictice OSS licence then isn't it? Open source is more than just code visibility. Macs are weakly open.
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C'mon. It may be a legitimate comparison on the continuum of platform comparision.
"Sony, you've made the PS3 so closed and restrictive that you make the Mac look like Richard Stallman's promised land."
And Mac's also known to be mocked for its lack of games over the course of the last, well, 26 years, unlike Apple's closed iPlatforms, which are chock full of games only few years, even months from their introduction, including titles from big companies like EA.
It's just a really crappy comparison, don't try to rationalize it.
I doubt Gabe really thinks Sony's management would open up the PS3. Just venting hidden frustrations and a poor marketing shot at their Mac Steam port.
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It still doesn't make much sense. They support the Xbox 360 which is as closed as, or even more closed than the PS3.
Like a Mac. A Big Mac? (Score:2, Insightful)
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His assesment is accurate... (Score:3, Insightful)
OSX is the most open operating system Steam currently delivers software for. OSX is the most open of the operating systems with a measurable desktop market share. OSX is the most open platform that runs Microsoft Windows. I could make up about 100 other items. The most important item however is this:
OSX is the most open platform any commercial software companies are writing consumer applications for.
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There is commercial software on linux, for consumers even. I played native Quake 4 last night.
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Really, where did you buy it? How much did it cost.. Choosing to do a free release of an old game on alternate platform as an experiment is not quite the same thing...It would be like if Steam had only ported portal to OSX and gave it away. Actually know, it does not even quite reach that level.
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OSX is the most open platform any commercial software companies are writing consumer applications for.
Choosing to do a free release of an old game on alternate platform as an experiment is not quite the same thing
How about a new release of new software on an alternate platform AND providing support with it. From Microsoft no less. [microsoft.com] Too free for you? How about Sybase? They sell linux versions of thier database management software for linux on PPC and x86 platforms.
How about VMware? They sell virtualization solutions for...you guessed it, linux! Oh, and that brings us to another of your "points":
OSX is the most open platform that runs Microsoft Windows.
WRONG. Either you're running windows in a virtual app, or you're not running OSX. OSX itself does not run windows.
Maybe..
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I bought it in the store, costs the same as every other version. Had to grab the binary from ID's site though.
So the store doesn't sell a Linux version of the game. You bought a Windows version and used the resource files on the disc in combination with a Linux binary that wasn't on the disc you bought.
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Indeed, for 1 game I did do that. You probably downloaded patches for you version too.
I still bought a game and use it on linux natively. The fact that the box only contained the resources and license changes nothing.
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If that makes this one not count, then feel free to go down the list a little.
You can go buy vmware workstation for linux right now.
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You are right , Server is free. I was wrong on that one. I will give you Workstation. :)
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Does that matter? The Linux binaries are made by the same company, not by any third-party. Besides, there's plenty of content nowadays you get by downloading - free DLCs, new maps, etc. Aren't they part of the game?
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It does matter because they did not make them to make money. The person speaking is in business to make money. If Valve makes a Linux port (and it appears they are), they will be the first commercial game seller on Linux. All the freaks on here insulting him because he made a factual statement should be thanking him and Apple. I doubt you would see the Linux ports if OSX id not use opengl...
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Yes they did. Why else would they make them?
They got my money only because they made them.
ID has been selling commercial games on linux for a long time kiddo.
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So open I can't install it (legally) on my hardware even though it can work on it. In other news, US laws are easy to read! They're in plain text!
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How do you get to this? How conceivably is OSX more closed then Windows?
Its extensively documented, the full suite of development tools needed to make software on it are provided for free by the vendor, and its *really* cheap to get beta/pre-releases to test against -- seriously, have you *seen* a MSDN license, vs the $99 Apple charges? (Yes, I'm aware of the Express editions MS has been offering)
Yes, the iPhone OS is closed as all hell. Mac != iPhone, even though they share a lot in common.
As a *platform*,
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Except you are a liar and I am not.
Feel free to link a page similar to this: http://www.opensource.apple.com/release/mac-os-x-1063/ [apple.com] for any OS that meets the criteria I mentioned.
I suspect we will not hear from you again :)
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kernel.org
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Really so what commercial software is currently sold for Linux (you know for money) that is targeted at the consumer market. The quoute is from a guy that sells games for a living. I apparently understand a lot more about Linux than you do.
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Vmware workstation
Doom 3
Nero
UT2004
Postal 2 (will soon be getting Postal 3)
You keep asking the same dumb question you will keep getting the same dumb answer.
You apparently understand nothing, since you think "OSX is the most closed platform that runs Microsoft Windows" which does not even make sense.
360 (Score:2)
Yet he has no trouble putting his games on the 360...
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Those ports took almost no investment...
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XNA doesn't matter to developers like Valve, so the parent's point still stands. The Xbox 360 is as closed as the PS3. The only reason they support it is that porting their games to it is very easy since it uses the same technologies as Windows.
Mac!=iPhone/iPad (Score:5, Informative)
Judging by the sheer number of responses so far, many people here can't tell the different between iPhone/iPad and Mac. They are both made by Apple. Macs run OS X which is based on BSD. Mac OS X is composed of Darwin sub-system, Aqua GUI, and other libraries. Darwin is open source and is available under a BSD type license. Aqua is proprietary. Mac OS X runs on a lot of open source software such as BIND, bash, openSSH, etc. The Mac versions are available freely at http://www.opensource.apple.com/ [apple.com]
The iPhone/iPad uses a variant of OS X. It is not open source and the release of Apps is tightly controlled. Developers are free to release to their own devices but must abide by Apple guidelines if they want to publish in the Apple Store.
Valve is referring to Macs not iPhone/iPad.
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> Judging by the sheer number of responses so far, many people here can't tell the different between iPhone/iPad and Mac.
Mebbe they have shell scripts for their iPhone too...
Sony lost money on my PS3 since it sucks for dev (Score:2)
PS3 should be closed. (Score:2)
Since they've decided not to allow other operating systems I think the PS3 should be closed, like an anchor.
Not going to happen... (Score:2)
Sony (SCEI) is paranoid about security. Everything technical about the PS3 is on a need-to-know basis.
From a marketing / developers point of view, I agree it would be nice to have something like XNA so more developers could write/port their games, but due to the above, that is not going to happen. By keeping the system closed to even authorized developers they are going after the assumption that they will keep the quality of games high. In contrast to the DS which has a ton of "shovelware" games.
Cue insane laughter in three...two...one. (Score:2)
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Damn! That's some GOOD Joker Venom you have there Gabe!
Gabe blowing smoke again (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember the horrible Orange Box port for PS3? That was farmed out to EA, but it was still with Valve's approval. It reflected poorly on Valve, and Newell's been in PS3-bashing mode ever since then. Rather than admit that his company is too small to devote the resources to develop on PS3, he blusters about how crappy it is.
No, Gabe, other developers have been developing on PS3 for years and there are some great games for it. You already develop for Xbox 360, another platform that forces you to have the developer's blessing before you can code. Whining about openness doesn't make sense at this point. Feel free to skip PS3 development. Just don't blame the PS3 for your own company's shortcomings.
Waaah! It's a whine from Gabe Newell (Score:4, Insightful)
This sounds to me like a "waaah" whine:
"Waaaah, we're an x86/Microsoft/DirectX platform dev house we don't want to learn any other architectures or tools."
"Waaah, we want to sell our games via OUR online distribution, not the one Sony has set up for the PS3"
"But we want to make money selling games for the PS3 so Sony should do what we want...waaaah"
Sony is probably thinking:
"Fuck you, Newell, you farmed out the Orange Box port to EA instead of some competent house like Gearbox."
"The PS3 is our sandbox, our rules, it's the same way with the Microsoft's Xbox."
"Tying yourself to Microsoft like you have is a mistake. You can make games without Microsoft Tools and on non-microsoft platforms...if you're not a lazy x86 dev house."
"If the Mac is so open, why did it take you 12 years to release the original Half Life for the platform, Considering that the PS2 version came out in 2001?"
"How long did it take you to do Half-Life 2...six years? Lazy x86/Windows devs! A sequel should only take 2 years or less. How many Final Fantasy games did Square release between 1998 and 2006? Lets see VIII, IX, X, X-2, XI, and XII."
I've noticed a few other Windows centric game houses (like Blizzard, and Wild-Tangent) that talk the same way.
abba
Re:Well... (Score:5, Informative)
To be fair, the developer tools on the Mac are free, unlike Microsoft's developer tools...
The Express Editions of Visual Studio are pretty darn usable; they're free. While what you said is not technically incorrect, it's also not being entirely honest IMO.
Re:Well... (Score:4, Insightful)
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And unless you want to write commercial software, or use more than a handful of APIs available on Windows, or basically do anything more than kiddie stuff. For all that you need to shell out the full price for Visual Studio.
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Unlike Microsoft's developer tools? You might want to check that again, things have changed.
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While the iPhone may run a derivative of OSX it is not a MAC....
Re:Apple isn't really open source. (Score:4, Informative)
Look at the iPhone.
No, for a change, don't look at the iPhone. Look at what the man in the article is actually talking about: Mac OS X. Can you name one platform that is more open and runs commercial games?
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Linux + Wine [winehq.org]
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Why, oh why?
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Work, every got a copy so I said buy me the linux one. They wanted to make sure the windows users were not pirating disc burning software.
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Workstation is free and the rest is pretty old. Which of those is a commercial product you paid money for again?
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But I guess you would accept "Alien Vs. Predator 1", as long as it is sold by Valve through Steam? Shifting your definition of "commercial game" doesn't help in the least. No.. COD4 doesn't run in LInux (maybe in wine... who knows? who cares?), but there are commercial games for Linux. That's Commercial as in "you have to pay for them" and games as in "the point is to play". Whether *YOU* like them or not isn't relevant.
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That is news to vmware cause they are selling it. Player is free, not workstation.
http://store.vmware.com/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayPage&Env=BASE&Locale=en_US&SiteID=vmware&id=ProductDetailsPage&productID=165311300&resid=S-cN9AoBAkYAAFWtBWkAAAAQ&rests=1274484082312 [vmware.com]
I bought all those games for real money. Over the past few years sure, but your original comment had no time frame in it. Just deal you were wrong.
Non-FPS games for Linux? (Score:2)
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So you want to keep changing the rules, cool. Does mac have BTRFS support yet?
I would not know, I like FPS and I do not have kids. I would suggest you use google.
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Commercial Games. You see the focus of the article is a guy who makes money selling games..(Selling , like people pay money for them!)
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Your point being ... ? I paid for them. The fact that some of those are now open sourced (partly thanks to me paying for them) doesn't void the fact that the games are commercial in nature. World Of Goo wasn't open sourced by the way, nor part 2 and 3 of the Penumbra trilogy and you can still BUY them. You see the focus of my post? Commercial Games, one of which incidentally is sold through Steam too. That's like .. people paying money.
Now.. go back to your basement and don't forget to take your pills.
Re:How is a Mac open? (Score:5, Insightful)
I am fairly certain I can come up with the source for a lot more of OSX than you could for Windows 7...
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That's because it is built on *nix.
I am fairly certain you could get Microsoft to share a larger percentage of their system level APIs (by asking, or court order) than you could from Apple.
Re:How is a Mac open? (Score:5, Informative)
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The fact that it is built on Unix doesn't matter so much when pretty much all
of the relevant bits that Valve might be interested in are proprietary and
Apple only.
Re:How is a Mac open? (Score:4, Insightful)
What, like OpenGL? You might need that for video games. Dunno, do video games need to draw things on the screen?
What about sound? OpenAL? Might need that perhaps.
What about writing the Steam app itself. Well, you might need Objective C and C, and compile it with GCC in Xcode. All so proprietary! Whatever to do!
You might also need to be able to write to the Mac filesystem - most use HFS+, because that's all proprietary and closed.... no wait.
Sorry, what parts do Valve need that are Apple-only and proprietary. Specifics please.
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I'd be surprised if there was any part of the Linux project in OS X.
Re:How is a Mac open? (Score:5, Informative)
Open like a Mac? What does that mean? Its not like Apple is anymore open than MS is
Actually, Apple is a lot [apple.com] more open than MS is.
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Please link a similar page to this for the components in Windows 7: http://www.opensource.apple.com/release/mac-os-x-1063/ [apple.com]