Xbox Live Enforcement — No Swastika Logo 473
itwbennett writes "It's one of those questions that really should never come up, but as blogger Peter Smith points out, Stephen Toulouse, the head of Xbox Live enforcement, is used to fielding all sorts of strange questions. Recently, one of those questions was apparently 'Can I use a Swastika as my logo in Call of Duty: Black Ops?' When Toulouse responded with the obvious answer ('No, of course you can't, we'll ban you.') he was met with some pushback by people he refers to as 'contrarians' and 'internet pundits' who decided to educate him on the long and storied history of the swastika as a symbol of good fortune and how just because the Nazis used it, it doesn't make the symbol itself a bad thing. Toulouse covers the topic on his blog in a post titled Context and it's an interesting read if for no other reason than to get a peek inside the day-to-day issues the Xbox Live Enforcement team deals with."
Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:4, Insightful)
The guys tone seems to be that he knows best and that his view is commonly held, and that the people arguing are only doing so for the sole purpose of arguing.
I don't think that's true at all, and while a company certainly has no obligation to assure free speech to all customers of its service, I would expect it to at least be considered, especially when the arguments have a lot of merit.
I mean, if his point is that they won't allow things commonly found horribly offensive then he should have simply stated that, without diminishing the people making the argument. All in all, he comes across like a tool.
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Insightful)
Believe it not (and apparently you don't), his view is normal and commonly held. People arguing in this way for something like the use of swastikas tend to be immature or lying about their motives. There's nothing cool about swastikas, even for Hindus (it's a sacred symbol after all).
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, there is a lot that is cool about the (original, actual) Swastika symbol.
There is a relevant point people are missing: the Nazi Swastika is not an actual, official Swastika. It is a bastardized perturbation of an ancient eastern religious symbol. The original has the 'tines' of the symbol pointing to the left (clockwise spiral) and is axis-aligned when displayed. It often comes with a paired 'mirror image' version which spirals in the opposite direction, but is also axis-aligned (not tilted).
The Nazi symbol is different. It is a single symbol, tilted 45degrees off-axis to make a sort of diamond shape, and uses the counter-clockwise spiral exclusively. It is also relevant to note the colors and context of the symbol in its surroundings to determine which it is being used as. In countries from China to India to Thailand to Japan, that symbol is all over the place. Wherever you see certain temples, they will denote it with a simple swastika. It's commonplace.
It is unfortunate that the Nazis chose to pollute such a peaceful and historical symbol. The swastika is NOT an 'evil' symbol, and it has a long and interesting history. It is - in fact - quite 'cool'.
Believe it or not? I'm going to choose 'not'.
There are billions of people in the Indo-Asia area which believe strongly that this is a valid, and respected religious symbol. To me, that does not equal his belief being 'normal and commonly held'. Maybe among ignorant fools.
Because this guy is uneducated on this fact, and seems to think all swastika symbols are Nazi-related regardless of how they are shown, he is imposing his personal opinion on everyone using this service and device under the guise of 'moderation' and his own misguided belief about history instead of fact.
Tack on the fact that seeing and knowing about the symbols doesn't necessarily mean you are PROMOTING the ideas of those that previously used the symbol, and this guy is - in fact - removing a source of exposure and education of history from their service by doing this.
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Everything you said is true (except for the last part about a simple in-game picture being a potential source of education and meaningful exposure--I don't learn all about the history of Christianity by seeing an image of a cross)
None of it changes the fact that the people in question are probably unaware of these facts, and almost certainly using the symbol in a hateful way.
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Insightful)
I think your missing the point of the guys argument. He's not saying it's always bad to use the swastika as a symbole. He's suggesting that without the context of why that person is using that symbole they won't understand it. You are obviously educated heck a lot of people around here are smart enough to know that the Swastika wasn't always used for that. I think a large number of those educated people would also be smart enough to realize that the large demographic for these games even if it is rated M for mature aren't mature/educated enough to distinguish the difference between the two symboles. Taken in the wrong context the Swastika is very offensive especially if it was a symbole of someone who murdered your grandparents and everyone they knew, it spews hate. It's unfortunate that such a peacful symbole would be basterdized into that but that's what happend. To advoid that sort of hate and misunderstanding at this point I think the XBOX live team is right to ban it. If the main meaning in the western population were to change out of respect for those who use it as a peaceful sign then I'm sure they would change their minds.
In the middle of a game with no context is no way to change that opinion, it can spread more hate especially in a war game. So yeah they might not be promoting the ideas of Nazi's but 90% of the people they play with probably wouldn't even have an idea it was used for something good and most of those that did wouldn't see that in that context.
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For most people the thing that makes them "cool" is exactly the same thing why they are banned on Xbox Live (and in half of Europe): their link to the Nazis.
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? Cross shapes in and of themselves are pretty cool despite being used as the symbol of Christianity, and the swastika shape itself is cool, despite being used by the Nazis. If people can think shuriken make cool symbols, why do you find it so hard to believe that they might like a swastika simply for the shape?
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, you can't change the perception of the image, precisely because it is banned almost everywhere! And to be honest, I don't really grasp why. The argument "oh it was used by the evil evil evil nazis" is bull to me. So what? If we start banning things away like that, we'll run out of symbols pretty fast... If it was the portrait of AH we were talking about, I would maybe remotely start to understand... But that doesn't seem to be banned anywhere... And who are you to say what is bad taste and what is not? If it's a free world then it's got to be all free. No exceptions. What's bad taste next? Pedobear? Islamic symbols and lettering?
Truly, I'm amazed at the stupidity surrounding such phenomenon. A lot of people seems to get shocked at one symbol, yet a lot less are shocked at two stupid wars that cause real suffering and death and solve nothing. Even less seem to care about unjust and unlawful occupation of territories and nations around the world. And I'm not talking about Americans. Europeans tend to fit much more in this description. They face the swastika with the horror of facing the son of Satan or whatever, but then they go happily supporting the war on Afghanistan/Pakistan and Iraq (although to a lesser extent)... Yeah, the swastika is the real evil here, that's what we should worry about... Fucking imbeciles.
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You need a serious dose of perspective if you think the US engagements in Afghanistan and Iraq are anywhere near the same thing as Nazi Germany.
Start with a history book--preferably one written in German.
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Why would ANYONE bring Nazi Germany into a discussion about swastikas? I suppose nobody should mention slavery and the Rebel flag either?
Maybe you just played too much Pokemon:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Koga's_Ninja_Trick_(Gym_Challenge_115) [bulbagarden.net]
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Well, you can't change the perception of the image, precisely because it is banned almost everywhere! And to be honest, I don't really grasp why. The argument "oh it was used by the evil evil evil nazis" is bull to me. So what? If we start banning things away like that, we'll run out of symbols pretty fast... If it was the portrait of AH we were talking about, I would maybe remotely start to understand... But that doesn't seem to be banned anywhere... And who are you to say what is bad taste and what is not? If it's a free world then it's got to be all free. No exceptions. What's bad taste next? Pedobear? Islamic symbols and lettering?
It (and other controversial items/topics) are banned on most all forums online for a simple reason -- the vast majority of people using them are NOT trying to do so to engender discussion, but to troll/harass/etc. If you want to blame anyone for this, blame all the people out there that think anonymity on the Internet = license to be the biggest asshole they can be.
In the case of the swastika though, it is most commonly associated with Nazi Germany, simply because WWII and the Holocaust are rather major hi
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Whilst this perception exists use of this image shall be in bad taste; if you want change - then change the perception of the image.
To be honest I'm not one of the people that would want the image plastered on my character in a computer game, but I think by even having this conversation I'm trying to change the perception of the image.
It is possible that racist groups will keep using the Swastika for some time to come and things won't go back to "normal" in Western society, and that would be a shame. If some terrorist organisation started using the Coca Cola ribbon, would that make coke evil*?
* nevermind the fact that I already wouldn't
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, and where are most Xbox subscribers located? Hint: it's not in Japan.
For Americans and Europeans, the swastika represents Nazi Germany, not an eastern good-luck symbol. This particular symbol will probably never be otherwise because of the magnitude of the Nazi party's influence on Western history.
I don't know what's so hard about this... any 14-year old kid in the US that puts together a Swastika is just doing it to piss people off / get attention. Any notion of them actually caring about the swastika symbol is absolutely laughable. Xbox live is not the place for that debate.
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as a Buddhist... most of the Buddhists I know avoid using the symbol for two very simple reasons: 1, it's a symbol of pain and hatred for those around us, and 2, there are other symbols that carry the same essential meaning. The fundamental rule of Buddhism is "do no harm", and that symbol has become a symbol of harm for a great many people.
It's also worth mentionning that Hitler's use of the symbol was a little borked... he actually used a mirror image of the actual symbol.
So yeah. Anybody who's playing that game and wants to use the symbol is probably doing it for the shock value, or to try to piss people off.
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Insightful)
Reread what was written. I didn't say the symbol is bad, I said that it's become a symbol of hatred for those around me, and that out of respect for those people, I don't use the symbol myself.
Re:Forget the swastika ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Insightful)
And someone might disagree with me when I say that "it's bad to rape children". That doesn't mean I should adjust my position.
If you think there's something cool about using a swastika to represent you publicly, then there's certainly nothing cool about you.
It's not the person that's being banned after all, it's the swastika. You want to come back with a symbol that's not offensive, you are welcome. You want to be an asshole, then it's "buh-bye". That actually sounds like a good way to run an online community.
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So now you get to ban me from your little online community. I'm surprised you had to ask.
When the XBox Live people decided to ban the use of swastikas, they made a choice. Now people can decide whether they want to be part of an online community that does not allow swastika avatars or not.
This is not complicated. It's not a matter of free speech and it's not a matter of censorship. It's a matter of owners of online communities being able to set community standards, and then users being
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Because the swastika is a very singular symbol in contemporary iconography. It has zero positive connotation. Zero redeeming value. Zero chance for being "misunderstood". Its associations are so negative in fact, that if you use a swastika to represent you online, it is reasonable to exclude you from being part of the mainstream. The swastika is a radioactive symbol.
Probably not. But there are certainly plen
Incorrect - the logos are player-generated (Score:5, Informative)
No, the players themselves have the power to create logos. There's a fairly extensive set of graphics (clip art essentially) which you can arrange in any way imaginable - choose the colors, size, arrangement, etc. - to create your logo. Lots of people find creative ways to make penises, and lots of people were finding creative ways to make Nazi swastikas. I made a much longer post about it here already, but you've been modded up, and you're misinformed.
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Prove it? Its banned in most of Europe.
Unless your Hindi or ancient Egyption, you have nothing to stand on for using that symbol.
It was bastardized by the Nazis well before anyone currently bitching about it was born. So for all intents and purposes, its a Nazi symbol.
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Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:4, Insightful)
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somebody has to be the bad guy. its a war game. hell, what about wolfenstein enemy territory? its always axis versus allies.
the only person to cause any kind of conflict is the admin who is being pedantic about a logo on the player model of someone who is there to be shot
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shouldn't it be encouraged? lots of people would want to shoot nazis. pathetic.
Lot's of people want to shoot paedophiles, lets add animated models rapping children for motivation...
People already shoot rappers all the time. It's one way to get their music more air time.
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The problem is his dismissive attitude of the other side as simply being contrarians.
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Insightful)
His view is commonly held. The people who are arguing, most likely, are only doing so for the sole purpose of arguing. I can't say whether he "knows best" as a general principle, but it's a good call. And an obvious one.
When's the last time you heard the word "swastika" and didn't immediately think about its role in Nazi Germany? Here's my stream-of-consciousness: "NAZIS! HITLER! WORLD WAR II! DEATH CAMPS!" and then, if I think about it a little longer, I might think, "Hindu mythology? Wait, was that Hindu or something else? Maybe Sikh? I don't think that's really a Sikh thing...they've got the turbans but I'm not sure what else...what other religions are there in India? Jainism? No, that's not right...it's not the Buddhists, I don't think...must be Hindu. Doesn't it point the other way, though? Do they do it both ways? I should check out the Wikipedia article. Maybe I should look up Sikhism, too."
When's the last time you saw a swastika in a movie or a flier or a tattoo or a T-shirt, and it wasn't this bad boy [wikispaces.com] or a reference to it?
These people live in the same universe as we do; it's merely a matter of being contrarian, and a video game (correction: this video game, I won't speak for all possible video games) is not really an appropriate platform for reclaiming the symbol.
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Informative)
When's the last time you saw a swastika in a movie or a flier or a tattoo or a T-shirt, and it wasn't this bad boy or a reference to it?
The last time I saw a swastika, it looked something like this: http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/images/symbols/swastika-chinese-amulet-cc-rubicon-200.jpg [religionfacts.com]
Let me try to list all the recent times I've seen swastikas:
- once, in a screenshot of 4chan trying to be funny
- three times, in a world history textbook, talking about the Third Reich
- at least fifty times, at the local Buddhist temple
- at least thirty times, in various good-luck charms sold at local flea markets
- once before every important exam I take in school, in a good-luck charm passed down to me from my mother (it looks a lot like the one I linked to)
- at least twice, in friends' houses, where they are said to bring good luck
Perhaps, wherever you live, swastikas aren't commonly used, and perhaps you have no interest in other cultures. There's nothing wrong with that. But to assume that your experience holds true for the entire world - and that the swastika universally no longer holds any meaning besides that which was ascribed to it by Nazi Germany - is laughable.
In Western Europe and North America, the swastika didn't have very much meaning before World War II, so after World War II, it became strongly associated with Nazism. But in Southeast Asia, the swastika has been a symbol of good fortune for thousands of years, and a fleeting decade-long regime in some far-off country did very little to change that.
Even in the West, such as in the United States, there are many immigrants from Asian countries. I am one of those people, and if someone showed me a swastika (and it wasn't enclosed in a white circle on a background of red), I would think "good luck" before I thought "Nazis", and I bet a significant number of other people in Western countries would, as well.
I'm not saying that banning swastikas in Xbox Live was a bad decision. It was probably the correct decision, especially if the majority of the Xbox Live users in question are American - though I agree with metrix007 that this guy could have had a better tone about it. I am, however, saying that the association between the swastika and nothing but Nazi Germany is far from universal.
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:5, Interesting)
Well said, but the issue really is context. If this game were being marketed primarily in Asia, it wouldn't be a big deal. It's not. It doesn't seem appropriate for a Westerner to scream, "Oh my God, Nazis!" if they see it used in Brahmin texts. It doesn't seem appropriate for an Easterner (or immigrant) to take umbrage that the swastika has a very specific and very odious meaning in the West.
Mind you, I would love to see the symbol reclaimed and enjoy the status in the Western world that it has in the East (and even, formerly and to a lesser extent, in the West). There are many avenues and platforms that one might use to that effect. It should be evident that XBLA is not that platform.
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Yes, I agree with everything you said, and with your original post as well. I just wanted to reply because you asked "When's the last time you saw a swastika?" and the last time I had seen a swastika, it had nothing to do with Nazi Germany.
And also because I, too, would love to see the swastika reclaimed to its original meaning of good fortune in the West, and educating users on Slashdot is certainly a valid avenue. :D
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:4, Insightful)
When's the last time you heard the word "swastika" and didn't immediately think about its role in Nazi Germany?
When I did my puja this morning, Ganesha is adorned with a swastika on his palm. Next time will probably be when I do my evening puja.
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Better than me.
I keep thinking "ramens". The brand of instant noodle I keep at work for a quick meal if I'm working late has a swastika on the package. This discussion is making me hungry. ;)
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Well, she was a 98-pound white-trash kind of girl, but my friend palmed his dreidel just in case there were more where she came from. As it turned out, there was a whole group of them in that apartment complex. That was about 4 years ago.
The Reich is gone forever, but the symbolism and significance lives on.
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Oh, sure, none of those guys were in the Luftwaffe. The modern KKK doesn't go around burning crosses in people's front yards any more, near as I can tell. I haven't heard of anyone getting lynched in years.
Here's some counter-advice: Spend a day walking around in full Klansman gear (the distinction seems rather blurred in American culture) and explaining to everyone how dated their sentiments are, how the Klan stopped its reign of terror years ago, what is your problem, people? (Please take a camera with yo
Symbol Banned in Germany (Score:2, Interesting)
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None of the articles seem to mention that the swastika is banned in Germany. As a result, model aircraft manufacturers (Airfix, Revell, etc) don't include swastikas in their decal sheet so they can sell to the international market.
Exactly, that's another thing which has to be considered here. The xbox live service is available in Germany, too - and so the company could (potentially) get into trouble. Most likely not (the game has already been rated etc. after all), but I am sure it's one of the reasons why game companies make sure those symbols are not used by players.
Buddhists and hinduists aren't educated (?) (Score:5, Insightful)
'No educated person on the planet looks at the swastika symbol (...) and says "oh, that symbol has nothing at all in any way to do with global genocide of an entire race"'.
Well, no educated person except a couple of billion buddhists and hinduists. But I suppose they're not educated, since they don't believe in our God.
When you get a city map in Japan, it's often littered with swastikas for all the buddhist temples. I'm pretty sure those have nothing at all in any way to do with global genocide of an entire race.
He could have made his point with a little more respect. I can understand you don't want swastikas on an online video game service that's used by a lot of people from western societies, but he's pushing it a little bit too far when he's talking about contrarians arguing about some innate facts.
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They're probably aware of it, but that does not keep them from continuing to use it like they did before, without even remotely thinking about nazis.
Are you aware that the Clu Clux Clan uses the Christian cross as a symbol? As an educated person, I suppose you must be. But do you think about the Clan every time you see a church?
I wonder what would have happened if the article had been about a muslim symbol. There would probably be a couple of embassies on fire by now.
Re:Hmmm, don't really like the guys tone (Score:4, Insightful)
Please. Everything he says is spot-on. The only reason this article is even up here is to give Slashdotters a chance to point and say "huur huuur Microsoft is eviiil!" once more.
The reality (Score:4, Funny)
"This isn't gonna stop until Pictionary bans the word 'windmill.' "
Context and intent (Score:5, Insightful)
While the symbol (and the name) are older, there are many ways to draw the original symbol that barely or superficially resemble the Nazi emblem: From orientation (right or left-facing; the Nazi flag always faced right) to the rotation (the Nazi flag stands on end at a 45% angle) to the color (the Nazi flag is red-white-black).
That implies a hazy line, but it redefines the offense as one of intent, context and of what a reasonable observer would see.
If you draw something like this [wikipedia.org], you can use the "traditional symbol of luck" defense; if you draw this [wikipedia.org], then it's a fairly obvious lie.
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The left-facing swastika is a very common symbol in various Buddhist related religions. There are many temples around Asia that are completely covered in them.
Actually I once heard the tale that the swastika comes in two types: left and right facing. The left facing shows good luck, the right facing bad luck. The tale didn't elaborate on why the Nazis chose the right-facing one... it didn't help them much at least.
Re:Context and intent (Score:5, Informative)
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You can draw something very close to the second and still claim the defense. It was after all a common symbol in Scandinavia. Carlsberg, the Danish beer company, used it as their logo until the symbol became too tied with thoughts of a rather aggressive southern neighbour. The Finnish air force had it as their symbol, and recently, at their anniversary, you could buy swastika rings. A Swedish noble family has it as their coat of arms. Incidentally that is where the nazis got their inspiration.
The fact is th
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From what I read, single-player games sometimes get an edition where that stuff is removed (also, blood color mods, but that might also be in American versions to get a lower rating), so it can be sold here.
The same also applies to in-game content for multi-player games (after all, textures and stuff doesn't need to be transmitted over the network), but not to user-created content like avatars - so yeah, their decision on this actually makes sense.
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Do they want to risk getting hit with the official banhammer in countries like Germany and lose that market for showing swastikas in-game?
Then, maybe they should say so, rather than insulting people who hold different views?
It's unnecessarily inflammatory (Score:3, Insightful)
No one is playing the "Super Hindus" when they use the swastika. It is an inflammatory icon with specific anti-Semitic meaning.
Its use ought to be banned, just as if a group called themselves the "Jew gassers" and tried to claim it was a tribute to a wacky Israeli troupe.
Should anything offensive be banned? Well, MS has decided that they will cater to the lowest common denominator, so that means nothing offensive. These rules are indicated up front, so you don't really have a case that you didn't know about the rules.
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No one is playing the "Super Hindus" when they use the swastika.
I play the great warrior Arjun [wikipedia.org] you insensitive clod
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No one is playing the "Super Hindus" when they use the swastika. It is an inflammatory icon with specific anti-Semitic meaning.
Its use ought to be banned, just as if a group called themselves the "Jew gassers" and tried to claim it was a tribute to a wacky Israeli troupe.
Should anything offensive be banned? Well, MS has decided that they will cater to the lowest common denominator, so that means nothing offensive. These rules are indicated up front, so you don't really have a case that you didn't know about the rules.
I think some cultural imperialism is present here. I suspect that if someone wanted the cross banned because of the Nazi's use of the Iron cross, or the crusades they would not have much luck
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if a group called themselves the "Jew gassers"
In Luxembourg, there is a small village which has a road called "Judde Gas" (Jew Gas). Of course, in Luxembourgish, "Gas" also means "small road", but after WWII, it's still a bizarre name. Strangely enough, the name hasn't been changed...
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They are only banning something offensive to a specific group of people, and giving the finger to all the others.
Context is kinda why I can see it would be used (Score:2)
Not played it (yet), but considering it's a game about running around and shooting each other...
Doesn't seem out of context if one side, being the bad-guys, is wearing the attire of those bad-guys does it? Or is the enemy shown just as amorphous gray blobs?
If this particular game doesn't have Nazis in, then fair enough, please ignore THIS post. I'll post it again when there is a recognisable enemy! But when CoD had WWII as the theme, did the enemy not have any markings showing which side they were on?
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Ah, thanks for the clarification.
This is nothing new (Score:2)
This is really nothing new, most places that have any kind of moderation will instantly assume that anything that looks even remotely like a swastica is bad or intended to cause offense.
A few years ago, I had made a map for C&C: Red Alert 2. Part of the map design, by coincidence, had an area that looked a tad like a swastica on the minimap (it was basically an "X" shape with a few lines coming off of it) in one small corner. I'd had a screenshot of it on photobucket and that was removed because it was
My network, my rules. (Score:2)
Wellcome to the Wallet Garden, ... or maybe you was born there, so you don't know what you miss.
Freedom is something you learn.
It was unbelievably rampant in COD Black Ops (Score:5, Interesting)
I bought the game when it came out because I'm unemployed, living in my mother's basement, have nothing else to do, and haven't bought a game in a year or so (besides Civ 5 but that's different).
I love the fact that you can customize your logo. Other than unlocking better weapons, it would be difficult for me to care less about customizing the appearance of the weapons (which you can do) or your character model (which you can do to a limited extent). But somehow, designing your own little logo really appeals to me.
I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way, because there are a lot of really intricately designed logos that people have made. I am always sure to look at everyone's logo when we're sitting in the lobby between rounds to look for interesting ones. You see them each time you kill someone or they kill you, too, so you can keep track of players you're playing with by their logo. Of course, there are a lot of typical design styles that you might expect, like skulls and penises and what not. Even with those, though, it's often amazing the creativity that went into them (using the set of graphics available, it's amazing the different ways people have come up with to illustrate ejaculating penises).
However, for the first several days, there was almost always at least one person with a swastika. Not a hindu or buddhist one - a red, white, and black, rotated 45 degrees, unmistakeably Nazi one. I was in one lobby where no less than three people had them. It's kind of funny actually because, since there's no pre-set swastika symbol, they had to be just as creative when designing their swastika as other people are designing other things.
Now personally, I believe fully in the freedom of expression, and all that. I am not offended by swastikas, even Nazi ones, by themselves. It depends entirely on the context. Here, it's mostly teenage boys donning them. They're ignorant of history and what the Nazi swastika represents, and the crap that spews out of their mouths if they have a microphone only confirms their ignorance. It really does become offensive. And, I don't need my parents (or anyone else) seeing me interacting with a bunch of idiots with swastika logos - the type of person you'd avoid at all costs in any other context, but who are difficult to avoid on xbox live (or playstation online in my case).
I believe they must be doing something about it on the PS3 too, because for the past few days I can't recall seeing any swastikas, and I've been playing quite a bit. From a purely business standpoint, it definitely makes sense to ban things like swastikas. To their credit, that's probably the only thing they're going to care about. There certainly hasn't been a decline in the number of ejaculating penis logos.
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>>Here, it's mostly teenage boys donning them. They're ignorant of history and what the Nazi swastika represents
Pfft. Nazis and their swastikas are pretty much the most recognizable figures out of history to the modern teenager.
If for no other reason than that all the early Call of Duty games featured Nazis.
While I understand banning the swastikas, it seems rather fucking hypocritical from a series that has made billions of dollars off WWII.
Re:It was unbelievably rampant in COD Black Ops (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, you're right. But it's entirely a context thing. If I'm playing a WW2 game, I expect to see a lot of swastikas. I expect to see them on my character if I'm playing as the Germans, which you can do in any WW2 game with multiplayer.
However, here it has nothing to do with the context of the game. It's being used to be provocative - and you would only do this using a swastika if you're a neo-nazi (which probably some of these people are), or if you're ignorant as I suggested. Every teenage boy recognizes the Nazis, yes, but it's ridiculous to suggest that they all *truly* understand the implications of donning the swastika - primarily, they don't understand that it makes them look like an idiot, and it doesn't make them look cool. Especially once you've played this game online with them and you've heard what they have to say - they're ignorant.
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And, I don't need my parents (or anyone else) seeing me interacting with a bunch of idiots with swastika logos ...
To their credit, that's probably the only thing they're going to care about. There certainly hasn't been a decline in the number of ejaculating penis logos.
But you're good with your parents seeing you interacting with a bunch of cum-spewing dicks?
I guess you gotta draw the line somewhere...
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Hehe, that's a good point, but the Nazi swastika is certainly a lot more eye-catching.
Why do people have to be jerks on the internet? (Score:2)
I'm all for freedom of speech and expression, but why can't people accept "No, you can't. Some people may find it deeply offensive." as an answer? I think we can all agree that it is reasonable to not want people running around on XBL with swastikas plastered everywhere.
Yes, the symbol in question has many other meanings, but in an online community where users dedicate no small percentage of their time to finding new ways to spell fa**ot and ni**er to get around content filters, you can bet your ass they p
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You should never keep your mouth shut just because someone might find what you're saying offensive. But now I'm talking about real life, a blog/forum post, etc. You can add context then and that's exactly the point of this guy, eventhough I don't like the cocky way he presents his opinion.
I do have a major problem with developers having to censor out swastikas in games that are supposed to be in the time of WW2 though. Eventhough games are usually not 100% historically correct I feel like you're censoring h
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Cause the next thing is "no you can't use that pair of boobs as logo"
Then it is "no you can't use this skull as logo"
Then it is "no you can't use something resembling a competing brand name as logo"
Then it is "no you can't use the apple fruit as logo"
Computers make this kind of stuff extremely easy.
So complaining at the first stage makes sense.
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But people do not have a right to offend others, either, if I create an online game and state in my terms of service "we reserve the right to ban you for offending other players". And that's what's being discussed here.
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An innate right? No, they don't. However, if you are in my house, or on my server, I get to make the rules and decide how far my guests are allowed to go when offending one another.
javascript (Score:5, Insightful)
What the hell? I really can't scroll down on your site without javascript enabled?
I'm sure your content was compelling though.
Isn't it interesting (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Isn't it interesting (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Isn't it interesting (Score:5, Informative)
I guess they do this to try to keep people from spamming in different languages, but it can be annoying.
It is.
The reason, BTW, is that when Slashdot allowed all Unicode characters, trolls started using RtL markers to mess with the site's layout, so the admins
a) created a whitelist of allowed characters to prevent not just current but also future control characters from hitting the site (good)
b) made it so that pretty much no characters other than the Latin1 ones were on that list (bad)
c) never updated the list again (worse).
Well someone had to post it (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Well someone had to post it (Score:5, Insightful)
If in some other game, you're roleplaying a buddhist monk who has it around his neck as a good-luck symbol, its all good and dandy.
Context people, Context.
You know your game is about killing people, right? (Score:5, Insightful)
Like, you made a whole video game to accurately recreate the violent deaths of people for sport, right?
And you have problems with people expressing their preference for a group that violently killed lots of people?
MORAL DILEMMA!
Activision made the game, not Microsoft (Score:4, Informative)
Activision made Call of Duty. Microsoft is banning people from Xbox Live. Those are two different parties, and their actions don't (necessarily) have anything to do with each other.
Hard concept, I know, but please try to follow along.
necessary but probably futile (Score:2)
We're talking about xbox live here... (Score:2, Informative)
I fully agree with that guy (Score:2)
I 100% agree with everything that guy posted in his blog.
Yes, the swastika symbol does not always stand for nazi Germany, but in our western culture, pretty much EVERYBODY will think of that meaning first - especially if the symbol is drawn in exactly the way used back then (same orientation, same colours). All the "but it has a different meaning in certain religions" arguments are just crap. If you'd ask those people to explain in more detail what they know about the symbol, why it is designed that way and
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If you'd ask those people to explain in more detail what they know about the symbol, why it is designed that way and why exactly their 20 people clan so badly wants that symbol as their logo, they would not be able to explain it (or you'd just get a copy of the wikipedia article) - because in reality they actually want the swastika symbol BECAUSE they want to offend people and all tht online game, the game company CAN state that they will ban you for it (free speech does not apply there, same as it does not apply on a private message board).
Absolute fucking cobblers. In nearly every city in Britain and probably America you will find a Mandir and every one will have swastikas. There have been 3,000 people at ours at Deepawali and other similar occasions (not your group of 20), and nobody is shocked, or wants to shock people. Your assertion that a handfull of people want to use the swastika to shock people is absolute crap, a large number of people use it regularly as a religious symbol.
Re:I fully agree with that guy (Score:4, Insightful)
Absolute fucking cobblers. In nearly every city in Britain and probably America you will find a Mandir and every one will have swastikas. There have been 3,000 people at ours at Deepawali and other similar occasions (not your group of 20), and nobody is shocked, or wants to shock people. Your assertion that a handfull of people want to use the swastika to shock people is absolute crap, a large number of people use it regularly as a religious symbol.
That may be, but we are talking about an ONLINE SHOOTER here. The only reason anybody would want to use a swastika in a xbox live shooter (with mostly male teenage players) is not religion, it's the link to nazi Germany.
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We're playing nazi vs usa games since computer games exists, but the nazi ones can't wear the logo. Makes no sense to me to be honest.
I'm pretty sure it actually shocks some people that you can usually play the nazi side. Actually, it's called Axis instead, much more politically correct.
Yes sure the ones wearing it want to be "the axis side" - it doesn't mean they are nazi, it's a war game where you KILL people after all.
If the axis had won the war, we'd probably be arguing about not being able to use the a
Kill people but be nice about it (Score:2)
It's kind of funny that there's a discussion about certain symbols being evil, in a game where you're running around shooting people's heads.
Signs change their meaning over time (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, swastikas have a long history of meaning good luck and prosperity all across the world. Yes, I would have preferred the nazis to use the goatse man instead of the swastika, but unless you are in the most remote regions of the Andes, a swastika means nazis.
The twin towers had a different meaning before 9/11, Tiananmen Square used to have a different meaning and so did a lot of other symbols/places/buildings.
And about the trolls who argue otherwise: They don't want to use the swastika cause they are deeply rooted in one of various old cultures or religions. It's because they want to shock people or they actually condone the actions of the nazis.
Long story short: Fuck them. Optionally with a large swastika. Those are cool, after all.
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Buddhists would say that the meaning of the icon lies in the mind of the one ascribes the meaning to it. Therefore the icon has no intrinsic meaning in and of itself and thus they would have no problem finding another meaningless icon to use in its place.
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Buddhists would say that the meaning of the icon lies in the mind of the one ascribes the meaning to it. Therefore the icon has no intrinsic meaning in and of itself and thus they would have no problem finding another meaningless icon to use in its place.
That cuts both ways - you can count on the neo-nazis just using other symbols [adl.org] in response to the ban too.
Re:Plenty people use the British flags (Score:4, Informative)
Nope. I'm a 'brown' person whose country used to be ruled by the Brits. Yes, they unjustly killed tens of thousands (e.g. the Jalianwala Bagh massacre).
However, the Nazis were far worse... 2-3 orders of magnitude worse. The Nazis killed hundreds of thousands of browns as well (e.g. Roma).
There is no comparison. Ban the Nazis!
Re:Plenty people use the British flags (Score:5, Funny)
You know, if the Nazis had chilled out a bit, stopped the whole "let's conquer Europe" thing and the other bit about genocide and racism, established a modern liberal democracy, made friends with their neighbors, but kept the whole swastika business, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
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war wise, i can't think of many major wars against black people
Ahem. [wikipedia.org]
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Having deaths, events, emotions and other things attributed to them is actually exactly what symbols are for. It's kind of the definition.
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Except that the knife doesn't stand for a certain belief while the swastika did and is still generally associated with that belief.
Are you referring to Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism [wikipedia.org]? That seems more like "beliefs" than "belief" to me.
The swastika shape itself has been around for at least 8000 years according to that wiki entry. The swastika itself is still "generally associated" by millions or billions of people with their own religion.
Oh, and some idiot racist group used it for 20 years or so.
If some nation used the Christian cross as their symbol and committed a whole load of atrocities, do you think Christians would stop using the
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The USSR (whose flag you are referring to, lumping them all together as "commies" under that flag might offend a couple of other nations) was especially good at getting it's own inhabitants killed and in doing so didn't differentiate between various ethnic groups, for actual genocides I'd say a citation IS needed.
The Nazis specifically prosecuted and eliminated Jews, gays, lesbians, Roma, handicapped people and probably a slew of other groups that didn't fit into their world view, quite a difference if you
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Laws [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionist_committee_of_the_Soviet_public [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews#In_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_and_Joseph_Stalin [wikipedia.org]
Would you like any more or can I stop there?
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Why the hell would that kind of question ever need to be asked? People that feel the need to ask such questions should be taken out and summarily shot - or maybe they should be taken to watch their family gassed - under their beloved symbol. Then perhaps they'd understand why it's such a stupid fkn question.
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I really wish they'd find some evidence that Hitler liked Justin Bieber (Poof). Another problem becomes socially awkward to admit liking.
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In my opinion, the use of the swastika should not be forbidden, it should be made fun of.
I agree with the sentiment. Having forbidden symbols increases their power rather than decrease. Then again, I would keep hatespeach as a bannable offence. I would think that eventually (perhaps years and years) the neo-nazis couldn't use it as a symbol as it wouldn't have the same effect anymore.
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And because of the fact that they were responsable for millions of deaths - including quite a few innocent ones.
You don't want people glorifying the largest attempt ever at genocide.