Firmware Troubles For Old Xbox 360s, Possibly PS3s As Well 196
Several readers have tipped news of firmware updates causing problems for both Microsoft's Xbox 360 and Sony's PlayStation 3. The Xbox issue was caused by a recent update thought to be preparing the platform for a new disc format that gives developers another 1GB or so of space to work with. As it turns out, the real purpose seems to be piracy countermeasures. Microsoft acknowledged the issue and promised that affected users would receive a new 360S console and a free year of Xbox Live to compensate. The PS3 problem was highlighted by reports of overheating consoles while playing L.A. Noire on the recently-released 3.61 firmware. Rockstar Games initially confirmed that the firmware was causing the overheating, but later backtracked. They issued a joint statement with Sony saying that neither the game nor the firmware was the culprit, leaving users wondering what else it could be.
Not the new update (Score:3, Informative)
http://majornelson.com/2011/05/18/clearing-up-some-confusion/ The new update is not what is causing the problem it was a previous update. It also explains this at the bottom of the gamasutra article
joint statement with Sony (Score:4, Interesting)
Rockstar Games initially confirmed that the firmware was causing the overheating, but later backtracked. They issued a joint statement with Sony
So, Sony talked to them nicely, convinced them with irrefutable logic that neither the game nor the firmware was the problem, and they skipped happily, hand-in-hand to the podium to announce it jointly. Sony would never be so evil as to threaten Rockstar Games with new firmware that prevents all Rockstar Games' games from working at all.
Re:joint statement with Sony (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony would never be so evil as to threaten Rockstar Games with new firmware that prevents all Rockstar Games' games from working at all.
Even Sony wouldn't be that stupid.
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Sony would never be so evil as to threaten Rockstar Games with new firmware that prevents all Rockstar Games' games from working at all.
Even Sony wouldn't be that stupid.
Are you new to this reality?
Of course Sony would be that stupid.
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Even Sony wouldn't be that stupid.
You sure about that? These are the same guys who used rootkits on CD to stop people from copying.
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No, these are NOT the "same guys". Those guys were over in Sony Music.
Different set of clueless stuffed shirts.
And no, I doubt they're stupid enough to do something that would be patently illegal, and result in at least the European Courts cutting them a new one.
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No, these are NOT the "same guys". Those guys were over in Sony Music.
Right. Keep telling yourself that. That's like saying GM/Buick or Ford/Mercury aren't the same. Same shit, different pile, same people, same mentality.
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The irrefutable logic being that it effects Xbox 360's too.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2011/may/19/la-noire-overheating [guardian.co.uk]
Haters, don't you just love them.
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Every normal computer on the planet could overheat, block ventilation circulation or put it in a closed cabinet and run and intensive process, but the hardware must not break if temperature reach designed limits. That is what happens on the PS3, the system shutdowns itself and refuse to work in that environment. I am sure the XBox 360 must be able to do something like that
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That's a pretty tall order. From an engineering standpoint, logic is on your side. But (and my apologies) if this were a car, then similar expectations should exist such that a crash at any speed should be survivable and that the engine should never be able to overheat.
In this case, software should never create a 100% load on resources. The speed and snappiness of a data processing system relies on its "availability." If a machine's resources are occupied at 100%, then it is not available for additional
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So from an management/engineering standpoint, I see your logic. But in a real-world application, that is not the case. We do not and arguably should not design products for "worst case scenario" applications. They should target just a little higher than average use applications.
When it comes to items out of your control, I see your point. For instance I would not blame the consoles overheating if they have their ventilation covered, or were operating in ambient temperatures of over 45 degrees.
You build things to a specification, when going out of this specification things fail, so the spec should entail 99.9% of typical operating requirements.
Games will and do use cpu and gpus to 100% usage. Consoles should be able to handle this. Is this handling a 'worst case scenario' when it c
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Considering BOTH PLATFORMS use IBM architectures, I would bet it's a firmware issue.
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Rockstar has a lot of clout and rightly so. If they said "Fuck consoles, GTA5 is going to be PC and Mac only" they'd still sell millions. While I think you may be right, I also don't think that Rockstar can be pushed around as easily.
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I doubt it. GTA 5 wouldn't be a killer app for Macs; people wouldn't go out and buy one specifically for it, especially considering the Apple Tax. PCs are nearly as common as televisions in your average industrialized nation household, so there's not a huge need to go and buy something new.
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On reflection, I think this could be a Very Good Thing.
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Did you not even read the summary? Nowhere up there does it mention that the XBox 360 is having the same problem with LA Noire, not even in the linked articles. While it's apparently true, you'd have to go outside of the Slashdot article to find out about it.
Rob
new big game (Score:3)
As others have noted, LA Noire overheating is also happening on xbox 360. Notice that in both cases it's older consoles? What's the game that a high percentage of people are playing now? So the big new game is what people happen to be playing on their dusty old hardware which is overheating. Same thing will happen next year with the big game and the older consoles around then. Anyway, it's the simplest explanation at this point.
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FWIW.. from what I read yesterday (too lazy to find it now). some of those reporting the problem on either console say there are no problems with any other games. (they tested after the LANoir crash.) - same dusty old console, but only one title causes a freeze. OTOH, some with older consoles reporting no problems at all.
Say what you like about Microsoft... (Score:5, Interesting)
...but this is how you do customer service.
Microsoft acknowledged the issue and promised that affected users would receive a new 360S console and a free year of Xbox Live to compensate.
Acknowledge the problem, fix it (or replace it in this case with a superior model), and give compensation.
No nonsense customer service, and it gives gives them good PR.
Compare that to Sony...
Re:Say what you like about Microsoft... (Score:5, Funny)
Acknowledge the problem, fix it (or replace it in this case with a superior model), and give compensation.
To be fair, Microsoft have had quite a bit of experience with replacing defective Xbox consoles. This is probably the second item on their customer service checklist after turning the unit off and on again fails.
Re:Say what you like about Microsoft... (Score:4, Informative)
I like that you were modded Funny for that. Having experienced two Xbox failures, that is just about exactly what happened.
MS left me with a sour perception of their testing/manufacturing standards, but their customer service is pretty darn good.
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FTFY
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...but this is how you do customer service.
Microsoft acknowledged the issue and promised that affected users would receive a new 360S console and a free year of Xbox Live to compensate.
Acknowledge the problem, fix it (or replace it in this case with a superior model), and give compensation.
No nonsense customer service, and it gives gives them good PR.
Compare that to Sony...
You mean fry any old hackable consoles, say "whoops, sorry", replace with unhackable ones, and come out smelling like roses. Brilliant, sneeky, underhanded, but transparent.
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Acknowledge the problem, fix it (or replace it in this case with a superior model), and give compensation.
No nonsense customer service, and it gives gives them good PR.
They're not doing anything good. That's the minimum they can do for bricking their users' consoles. Hadn't they done that, they would get sued, lose, and then they'd have to pay both a new console and the lawsuit costs.
Compare that to Sony...
...who only gave away 3 high rated games, one or two months of free premium service, a year of credit card protection, and other junk I can't remember for 3 weeks of downtime of a free service. Those bastards.
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Acknowledge the problem, fix it (or replace it in this case with a superior model), and give compensation.
No nonsense customer service, and it gives gives them good PR.
They're not doing anything good. That's the minimum they can do for bricking their users' consoles. Hadn't they done that, they would get sued, lose, and then they'd have to pay both a new console and the lawsuit costs.
Compare that to Sony...
...who only gave away 3 high rated games, one or two months of free premium service, a year of credit card protection, and other junk I can't remember for 3 weeks of downtime of a free service. Those bastards.
For just 3 weeks of downtime of a free service? You don't think it had anything to do with all that personal information? or because they aren't absolutely sure that the credit card data wasn't compromised? Nice attempt to spin this, but you're comparing apples to oranges here.
As well, them giving a year of credit protection is worthless. 3-5 years would be more appropriate. The data from ID theft often isn't used immediately. Frank Abagnale Jr. has made an informative presentation about that subject, and
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You don't think it had anything to do with all that personal information?
No, because that information has been stolen from them, using criminal methods, so for what we know by now, they're the victim. Until a lawsuit will prove otherwise. In that case, Sony will possibly go bankrupt because I suspect the compensation would be much higher.
Sony is responsible for protecting that information. They failed. Why would anyone trust them with updated information in the future? Ah, because they distracted with shiny games and stuff.
Also, that personal information could be used for identity theft. That's what the credit protection is supposed to guard against, and that's specifically why Sony is offering it.
As well, them giving a year of credit protection is worthless.
I clearly remember many comments on Slashdot which invoked credit protection before Sony declared they would be offering it.
This comment was based on the timeframe being limited to a year, not the offer of credit protection itself. Reading the 3-5 year recommendation
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Sony is responsible for protecting that information. They failed.
So if somebody breaks in my home then "I failed", if somebody robs my bank "I failed", if somebody kidnaps my children "I failed"? I don't think so, that's why we have laws that punish theft, robbery, kidnapping, and hacking secured networks. Of course people have all the rights to suspect that Sony was negligent, and that's what the lawsuits which have been filed will ascertain.
Congratulations! You have now missed the point TWICE. Learn how to read a sentence in context. The point wasn't lawsuits the point was: "Why would anyone trust them with updated information in the future?" Look what the next sentence was:
Why would anyone trust them with updated information in the future?
For the same reason most people trust Microsoft, Google, Apple and every other company whose software has been cracked before.
When has Microsoft, Google, or Apple had their paying subscriber database cracked? When have they had a comparable system's passwords exposed? Are you trying to compare the cracking of an OS or consumer software to a multi-million user database that supports credit-card tr
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You changed the subject.. the subject is Sony probably lost my info. If they had proper security it probably wouldn't have happened.
Blaming hackers does not absolve sony of responsibility. I gave them info with the understanding they would protect it. They did not. They tried to bribe users with free games. NOT because the service was down but because they probably lost my info. In fact its almost a certainty they lost my info. You tried to spin it as...
...who only gave away 3 high rated games, one or two months of free premium service, a year of credit card protection, and other junk I can't remember for 3 weeks of downtime of a free service. Those bastards.
Them being nice because their free service was
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The difference here is you are giving them the benefit of the doubt against overwhelming evidence.
MS needs to stop futzing around with the DVD drive (Score:3)
Acknowledgment or not, MS needs to stop futzing around with the DVD drive and just design a new generation console with a blu-ray drive. They're still limping along with an increasingly obsolete DVD drive (becoming more and more problematic on newer games like L.A. Noire) because they're too proud to pay Sony royalty rights for blu-ray and because they've been so focused on their Wii knockoff Kinect add-on. So, here we are at the end of the traditional 5-year console lifespan, and they don't even have a new
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...but this is how you do customer service.
Microsoft acknowledged the issue and promised that affected users would receive a new 360S console and a free year of Xbox Live to compensate.
Acknowledge the problem, fix it (or replace it in this case with a superior model), and give compensation.
No nonsense customer service, and it gives gives them good PR.
Compare that to Sony...
A superior model that doesn't work with the original xbox hard drive. That's an annoying little bit there...
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Microsoft: rich as hell company who uses terrible tactics to get where it is in the business world
The worst Microsoft does to their end-user customers is engineer lock-in or turn off DRM servers. They do some shady business dealings to keep themselves prominent, but that's not close to Sony:
Sony: not-so-rich company who uses slightly terrible tactics to get where it is in the business world.
Sony intentionally installs malware on computers via music CDs.
Sony shuts down MMORPG servers without notice.
Sony disables features you payed for (and sues you when you try to get them back).
Sony doesn't tell you when your CC# was stolen. Then they tell you it was, it wasn't, well it might have been...
Now they
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Sony GIVE you features for free that would normally set you back a fair penny, ie turning your Blu-Ray player/Games console into a 3D capable Blu-Ray player/Games console.
If by "give" you mean "advertised on the box to attempt to justify the PS3 being more expensive than its competitors at launch" then yes.
Oh, I forgot. You are interested in the pluses are you. You are just here to troll like the moron you are. Considering XBoxes are also overheating when playing LA Noire how in Hades can it be the bloody PS3 firmware you idiot.
Great, fine, even if I give the "Plays Blu-Ray Discs" as unqualified plus because the new models are the same price, I get to add this set of pluses/minuses for the new models.:
PS3: - Can't play previous console's games.
Xbox 360: + Can play previous console's games.
Of course, maybe I'm bitter because my PS3 is currently broken (I turned it on last week to play Arkham Asylu
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Incidentally, the "can't play previous games consoles" are why I want to get my PS3 repaired instead of replaced; I have a PS3 that can play PS2 games, and I don't want to have to buy another PS2 in addition to a new PS3.
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Hmm... I'll have to look up how to do this.
To be honest, I'm not sure if I know where the composite connectors are, although I think I also have my old PS2 component connectors if they use the same plug.
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According to Wolfram Alpha, Sony's revenue is 7.316 trillion yen (about $89 billion), Microsoft's revenue is $68.62 billion. Although Microsoft's market cap is much larger (almost x8).
They are both immensely rich companies.
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Revenue perhaps, but sony produce actual physical goods which have production costs... So their profit margins are a lot thinner.
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If you have an older unit that needs service, Sony won't railroad you into a newer unit.
I recently sent in a 60GB backward compatible PS3 for repair (wouldn't power on). They gave me the option of a $129 repair, or for $99 I could swap it for one of the newer models instead. The Sony rep left the choice up to me but she definitely understood why I wanted to stick with the older model, in fact almost encouraged me to go that route (I would have anyway).
I paid the $129... they ended up swapping mine for an
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True. But they won't give you old firmware either. If my 3.15 PS3 goes, sure Sony will replace it with a new PS3. But it'll run 3.61 instead. Even if you ask, they'll say no.
I'm sorry, but Sony should compensate me with a new PS3 so I can continue using my PS3 for the purpose I bought it for - OtherOS AND games. Not exclusive-OR.
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I have one of those. I haven't gone on PSN since they removed Other OS. IDK, it's kind of useless now.
I've been thinking about going on PSN again... At least it's less likely to overheat because I replaced the thermalpaste on it myself.
This Is Indifference (Score:5, Insightful)
These required updates are ridiculous. We wouldn't put up with having to take our cars back to the dealer to have required maintenance done that would take away some feature or option we paid for, let alone having the maintenance leave the car in a troubled or non-working state.
There needs to be some sort of consumer protection to prevent these types of things. What's next, an update for our phones that prevents us from dialing 800 numbers because they are costing corporations too much money when we call?
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I have a launch xbox 360 (yes, it never RRODed) so they don't get any older and my system appears to be fine. I don't believe we have the accurate story on what is causing Microsoft to replace some systems. I have two theories...
1) They briefly put out a bad firmware that only a small number of users got and then pulled it, some of those users may be the ones effected.
2) The upgrades explicitly invalidate or blacklist a very small number of xbox 360s (by their unique IDs) that Microsoft believes were tamp
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There are millions of game consoles out there - millions - and yet there aren't very many revisions of hardware per model. It's not hard for the manufacturers to test how these required updates are going to affect their hardware.
To be fair to Microsoft, I'm sure they they wanted to test some of the older XBox360s, but all theirs had already RRODed. Plus, how many first edition 360s are even still out there? Microsoft can easily afford to replace the 7 guys who bought a 360 on day one and it finally failed them during this latest firmware update.
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PS3's Probably got Rooted as part of the PSN hack. (Score:2)
It would be funny if it was true.
that doesn't make any sense (Score:2)
How do you add additional capacity like that? If the drive could always read the higher density disks, why didn't they use them in the first place? Surely it's not that the manufacturing process is more expensive and they only just now figured out how to make it affordable.
Is there any grain of truth to this or is it pure BS cover for the piracy stuff?
Re:that doesn't make any sense (Score:4, Interesting)
The discs are still dual-layer DVDs, but the new "format" is a different partition scheme that opens up an extra gig of space for game data, at the expense of space that was dedicated for some other purpose. That seems like it should be a pretty minor change, so the rest of the update probably slips in other changes such as DRM.
The theory on why this is requiring a hardware replacement for some users is that this forces a flash of the dvd drive firmware. Some revisions have a dvd drive that is incapable of being flashed, so the firmware may be causing those revisions to be unable to read disks.
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The same happened to the PSP: Sony limited the CPU frequency to 266MHz and only enabled the 333MHz with the 3.5 firmware update. Of course, hacked firmwares like M-33 let the user enable full speed way before that update.
If your xbox or ps3 breaks... (Score:3, Funny)
... I'll let you come over and play with my Wii.
--
BMO
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I had to return both my 360 and the Wii.
Nintendo was just as good about the exchange as MS was. 5 minutes on the phone and a new one was in the mail. Nintendo even sends out the new one before receiving the old one, provided they have your CC number on file.
The early Wiis had issued with the graphics chips which manifested as "sparkle" before eventual failure.
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The humor shibboleth. You failed it.
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BMO
Easy fix for Rockstar (Score:2)
This would not be a problem for Rockstar if they had developed this title for the PC platform. Gaming PCs have much better ventilation than consoles.
I would argue that this is exactly the type of game that PC gamers would love, so it would have made a natural home for the title. (As you can guess, I'm rather miffed at not being able to play this one.)
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What is it with you PC snobs anyway? When a PC exclusive title comes out, you don't see scores of console gamers spamming the game's message boards complaining that it isn't coming to consoles (and there are *WAY* more PC exclusives than console exclusives). And yet every time a console exclusive comes out, you see scores of "When is this coming to the PC?", "The PC is so superior to consoles", "How could you bastards NOT release this on the PC?", "WAAAAAAHHH, I'M GONNA TELL MOMMY!!" posts on every one of t
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When a PC exclusive title comes out, you don't see scores of console gamers spamming the game's message boards complaining that it isn't coming to consoles (and there are *WAY* more PC exclusives than console exclusives).
I'm not sure that I would quite agree that there are more PC exclusives (unless you include indie titles), but I don't really have any numbers to back this up. All I can say is that on the game review TV shows I watch, only a minority of games reviewed are available for the PC and only a handful are PC exclusives.
However, I have no problems with console exclusives because a lot of games suit the controllers better. My point about this game is that it does appear to be one that would work well on the PC, and
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What is it with you PC snobs anyway? When a PC exclusive title comes out, you don't see scores of console gamers spamming the game's message boards complaining that it isn't coming to consoles (and there are *WAY* more PC exclusives than console exclusives). And yet every time a console exclusive comes out, you see scores of "When is this coming to the PC?", "The PC is so superior to consoles", "How could you bastards NOT release this on the PC?", "WAAAAAAHHH, I'M GONNA TELL MOMMY!!" posts on every one of the game's message boards.
Christ, get over yourselves. Developers don't owe you jack (if you want to blame someone, blame all the PC pirates, not the studio). And, believe it or not, your shit DOES stink.
Rage much?
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I'm on slashdot, aren't I?
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I'm on slashdot, aren't I?
Yes, but raging against any other then Microsoft, Apple, or Sony is considered bad taste. =D
Evidence you're wrong forthcoming: (Score:2)
What is it with you PC snobs anyway? When a PC exclusive title comes out, you don't see scores of console gamers spamming the game's message boards complaining that it isn't coming to consoles
You mean comments like "I don't think my computer could run this. Here's hoping for a console version." and "Man, this looks pretty awesome. I hope it comes out on consoles." which I just pulled out from a thread under a video of The Witcher 2 [giantbomb.com] which just came out?
I could probably mine places like Gametrailers, G4 and IGN for more of that, but I think I've proven my point.
The rest of your 'analysis' if wrong also, but that's another story.
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Those comments are a rarity on PC exclusive forums. On console exclusive forums, they're quite common. PC gamers are actively offended when a game doesn't come to the PC. Console gamers usually just shrug it off.
Do I wish I could play WoW, Starcraft, The Old Republic, Minecraft, Witcher, etc. on a console? Sure. Do I go over to the message forums for those games and whine about it? No.
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he guy made a perfectly natural (and non inflammatory) remark
In his second sentence, yes. But his first sentence was a snide shot at consoles, reeking of the typical PC snobbery so often seen these days in any thread where a console exclusive is discussed.
It's bad enough I have to hear this crap from the prick at my local game store every time I buy a console FPS. I made the mistake of telling him once that I used to be a PC gamer and now that I've switched to consoles (because I got tired of dealing with the constant upgrade race), he feels the need to tell me every
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Lucky me... (Score:2)
My NES doesn't overheat at all while playing Duck Hunt on my CRT TV...
Smokeout (Score:2)
PS3 firmware 3.61 does have problems (Score:2)
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Yeah, it's PEBKAC syndrome. some PS3/360 owner does something stupid like putting their console on thick shag carpet, covering it with a blanket, or blocking the vents by putting it right against a solid surface because it makes too much noise and it overheats. Then they blame the game: "The game bricked my 360", or "this new firmware bricked my PS3".
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A computer shouldn't be expected to operate at full performance under all conditions; but failure to throttle clocks on high power silicon or halt gracefully before suffering hardware damage is pretty shoddy work; doubly so in something like a console or laptop, where the manufacturer has full control of every component, thermal sensor, fan, and airflow path inside the chassis.
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where the manufacturer has full control of... [the] airflow path inside the chassis
The incredibly piss poor design of the original 360 in terms of airflow amazes me. You'd think that they would have at the very least brought someone in to do some basic consulting on heat dissipation in the case, but obviously they didn't spend any time at all thinking about it.
Seriously, if I remember right there were only two small exhaust fans in the entire system. Processor / Graphics were cooled only by a passive heatsink, nowhere near the intake of those fans. The only way to get any apprecia
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Just as a function of basic geometry(and the fact that it is hard to get the central motor portion of a fan below a certain size) smaller fans have to either move less air, be louder, or both. Then you get into the pitch
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but failure to throttle clocks on high power silicon or halt gracefully before suffering hardware damage is pretty shoddy work; doubly so in something like a console or laptop
PS2's and PS3's (at least the models I've owned) make a shrill noise and blink lights when they get too hot., I've had it happen once with both. Both times it was accidentally restricted airflow. The PS2 will shut itself down
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Yeah, it's PEBKAC syndrome. some PS3/360 owner does something stupid like putting their console on thick shag carpet, covering it with a blanket, or blocking the vents by putting it right against a solid surface because it makes too much noise and it overheats. Then they blame the game: "The game bricked my 360", or "this new firmware bricked my PS3".
Normally I'd be agreeing with you, but I was playing Fable 3 recently on my 360 Elite and it's overheated a few times. I took apart the outer shell and gave it a good air-canning, and it over-heated less frequently (hours instead of about 30 minutes). This 360 sits upright on wood, close to the ground (as cool air resides close to the ground), and has good clearance above and around it. It's the only game I've played that causes over-heating in my 360. Mass Effect 2 and NHL 2011 run without issue for days a
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This. Hopefully the update is still available.
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IANAL, I am curious.
This may be country related, so I'll define that I am Dutch, I learned these definitions in the Netherlands.
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In Germany and I assume in Dutch too, as those are mostly EU regulations, you have two kinds of warranty:
Regular warranty (Garantie), which is a free service offered by the manufacturer, this can be anything from 90 days to 5 years or just not exist at all, as the manufacturer isn't require to provide it.
And then there is defects liability (GewÃhrleistung), this is required by law for all electronic goods and last two years (even longer in UK I think). This liability however is against the seller not
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I've heard it from a couple of customers too ("oh you have to fix it, it's guided by the EU regulations"), but obviously managers POV was - your warranty is with the manufacturer.
The relevant paper seems to be: 31999L0044 Directive 1999/44/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 May 1999 on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees [europa.eu]
And contains this:
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In the EU all non-perishables have two years minimum warranty too.
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Well, a guy in the UK got a 84 pounds return because of the OtherOS removing update [inquisitr.com].
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