Xbox 720 Might Reject Used Games 543
silentbrad writes "Online passes are a recent staple in staving off used sales. Limiting what used buyers can access is a protective measure for publishers, much to the chagrin of parts of the gaming community. Chris Kohler of Wired argues that the death of used games is inevitable, and passes are the first step toward something exactly like a native anti-used game something integrated into consoles. He notes, of course, that digital is the future of buying games, but in the meantime we may be looking at 'an interim period in which the disc as a delivery method is still around but ... becomes more like a PC game, which are sold with one-time-use keys that grant one owner a license to play the game on his machine.' Also at Kotaku, the source for the Wired article (which is the source for the IGN article)."
Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
If the secondary market becomes impossible, piracy will spring up to take its place, if anything else to increase availability of hard to find titles.
no used games is less new games sold (Score:5, Insightful)
2010 bought x-box
bought Black Ops
played it, sold it and bought GoW new double pack
played it sold it and bought new copies of ME1 and ME2
if i have to pay $60 for games, and no resale then i'll buy a few games like ME or Dragon Age where you can replay with different characters to get some value
or just keep playing x-box 360 games. lots of GOTY and other super editions with DLC and add ones out there for CHEAP.
In related news (Score:5, Insightful)
This idea they have is worthless (Score:5, Insightful)
So in the future, lets say... 18 years from now, you won't be able to legally play that game that came out in 2013 because there are no more keys left and the servers are down. You might still have the console, and the disk, and perhaps you paid money for it, but with that game, with that anti-used-game protection, it's useless. And of course, going around the copy protection would be the only way to play it again, which is illegal.
Where is in modern times, you can play an 18 year old game without breaking any laws. Buy a Sega Genesis or a Saturn, buy the game, and so long as it isn't scratched up you can have a nostalgiagasm.
It stinks, won't stop anybody, and make criminals out of everybody, eventually. This idea is worthless.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, the online keys were the last straw for me.
The fact that used games were available at half price was the reason I was playing in the first place. I trade the first 6-12 months of a game's release for the discount. I wouldn't pay $60 to cram into Modern Warfare on release day with everyone else anyway.
This is the miscalculation the game companies are making - they won't be able to force us into playing $60 and up for games we'd previously bought used for $30, we just won't play the games at all.
They are also missing the point that the presence of a used market drives sales, because you aren't so skittish about blowing $60 on a game if you know you can recoup some of that later.
This is a bad idea. I know that suits and PHB's think "Well, they can't get used games anymore - they'll buy the full priced ones instead!" but they've got another thing coming.
Re:What about Sony et al? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're beyond the pale of /. orthodoxy.
Microsoft is the enduring force for truth, justice, and the American way - in the console market. Sony is the devilish corporatist plutocrat outfit in this sector that we love to hate. If you want free mod-ups, you have to bash Sony in game threads, MSFT in PC threads :)
Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
Killing Used Games Kill Sales of New Games (Score:5, Insightful)
KIlling the used game market is going to backfire because the sale of used games subsidizes the purchase of new games. A lot of people make the calculation that they can buy a ~$50 game, play it until they are tired of it and then sell it for ~$20 - making the effective price only $30.
If the publishers make it impossible to resell that game, that amounts to nearly a doubling of the price for a new game and thus a lot less people will be able to afford it. These game publishers should be care what they wish for.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
Game companies don't care that you won't pay $30 for the used game anymore. Remember, THEY don't get that $30. They get NONE of it. To them, this is perfectly fine.
I'm not saying that they should be doing this, I'm just saying they did think it through.
Re:This idea they have is worthless (Score:4, Insightful)
It stinks, won't stop anybody, and make criminals out of everybody, eventually. This idea is worthless.
We already have a situation where everyone is a criminal. The result of that is people have less respect for the law. And rightly so, if it is illegal for people to do the things that people do every day, then the law no longer serves society.
We know this to be true. The law serves those who own and control the government. The law serves 'artificial' persons. Real persons, can rot in jail.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
What you're missing is that, without a used market for buyers of new games to recoup some of the cost of their unwanted games with, they simply won't buy as many new games.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not just about the cost. Today's games also focus on building up a community. Even games like Halo have a huge following of people who play just to have fun with their friends, and who would never play if not for that social interaction. (I am one of them.)
If Joe Blow can't buy a reduced-cost copy of Halo, he won't be part of the growth of such a community. And if I can't sell my copy, I might not be willing to try it out to begin with.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
Without a used market they won't sell me a new console, controllers, etc.; they'll lose revenue on the few games I would actually buy new; they'd lose any money I might spend on digital purchases as well.
There's also the risk I would be driven to a competitor's product, or lose interest in gaming altogether, which costs them down the road.
Next, ban old games (Score:5, Insightful)
Used game sales = new game sales (Score:5, Insightful)
How can these corporate dunces not understand that the used game market is what fuels new game sales ?
On the few occasions where I've sold a game, in my case it's because I didn't like it, and wanted to free up those funds to buy something else. My most recent example was last year's Splinter Cell game (which I dubbed "Gears of Splinter Cell"). I spent $60 on it, didn't like it, sold it to someone else for $45 or so. Then I turned around and spent another $70 on Black Ops. So far, the game industry has made $130.
If I were unable to sell the game, due to arbitrary restrictions enforced by the platform, the other guy would not have gotten his hands on my unloved Splinter Cell, and I would have had $45 less to spend on my next game. Restricting that private sale then directly results in one less retail sale.
Now, I only rarely sell games. I'm more of a collector, and I like to revisit old games every few years. I can afford it, so I'm not the typical used-game-market kind of guy. A lot of my friends are, though, and they rarely have more than 4-5 games in their possession at any given time. They beat one, sell/trade it, get a new one. That's the key factor: they keep buying new ones with the money from used sales!
The people who are buying used games ? They're not even on the radar. $70 for a video game is fucking expensive, considering most modern titles are hastily-polished turds. About half gamer guys I know in the 25-35 age range are broke asses, working retail jobs and having less than $200 left after rent and necessities. The used market is the only way they can afford any games, so they may not contribute directly to the game industry's bottom line, but it keeps them addicted. How often have I heard these guys go "Man when I get a 2nd job I am so buying a PS3"... but kill off the used game market and these folks will find other hobbies, and you lose them as a customer for life!
Re:Kill Used Games? Say Hello to Piracy (Score:1, Insightful)
(perhaps legitimately so, I should be able to resell my own property that I don't use anymore).
Ah but it is not your property. Thanks to the EULA you only have the right to use it when and where the owner of the property says you can.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:4, Insightful)
Like St. Creed says below, the used game market helps drive the new game market.
If Person A buys a game for $60 because they know they can sell it to "Used Game Store" for $20 when they get bored with it, then that's $60 in "Game Company Pocket". If Person A wouldn't buy the game for $60 if they couldn't sell it for $20, then that $60 that would have gone to "Game Company Pocket" never gets there.
Person B will by the game for $60 anyway.
Person C will buy the game for $30, putting $10 in "Used Game Store Pockets" and driving Person A to buy more games at $60. Person C may find new publishers/series, and may at some time buy a $60 game.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
I would like to see numbers on how true this is. I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
MS: still thoroughly evil (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft is still impressively thoroughly evil. This is just more of the same.
You can't even stream Netflix with your Xbox 360 without subscribing to Xbox Live.
There is no good reason for this, except Microsoft being greedy, evil bastards.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games? You think teenagers and 20-somethings have tons of cash to buy games and then throw them away if they don't like them or are done with them?
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think a lot of people buy games with the intent of trading it in later.
That's the wrong way to think about it. Someone may not consider whether they can trade a game in when buying a new game, but when they do trade in a game, it's often to purchase a new game. The sales that will be lost are not the initial ones but the subsequent ones where gamers are applying their trade-in value to lower the cost.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
It's true for used cars, why wouldn't it be true for games?
Because cars cost lots more than games.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
Because the stores don't pay very much for used games. The used game that you bought for $30 (instead of $45 new or probably $20 on a Steam sale), the store paid $5. At most. Yes, the stores will occasionally pay as much as $10 for new and hot titles, but those get sold used for as little as $5 off the price of a new copy.
The used games stores are bad for the industry. All the bad things that publishers say about games piracy? The loss of sales and money being diverted away from the people who make the games? The need to jack up prices to make up for sales lost due to alternate means of acquisition? All that shit is actually true about the used games industry. With the kicker that the people lost to the used games pawnbrokers are actually paying customers, which is something you can't say about the pirates.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
The same can be said about used cars, PCs, electronics, almost any physical object, so what? The way I see it, the industry wants to have it both ways:
When piracy is concerned, the industry says "a copy of a game is a product, pirating it is pretty much like stealing a DVD (or a car)". OK, so I guess my copy of the game is just another physical object and I should treat it like that (after all, I do not copy a lot of physical objects).
So, selling a used physical object is perfectly fine - I can sell (or buy) a used car, a tape deck, a PC and many other things. I have bought a lot of used equipment, mostly because I cannot afford new one or it is no longer made. So, if a copy of the game should be treated as a physical object, then it should be perfectly fine for me to sell it or give it away, assuming, of course, that I did not keep a "backup". Except that the industry really does not like it and takes steps to prevent it and make it so when I buy a game, I'm stuck with it forever. When I buy a TV and it turns out I do not like it I can return it (within 14 days) or sell it at a lower price - taking a loss, but still recouping some of the money paid.
You don't hear Intel bitching about all those used PCs sold to people. Or Mercedes bitching about used cars. Or just old cars, the way Microsoft is bitching about the fact that people still use Windows XP and *gasp* do not want to pay them money for a slightly better OS.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed, but you're forgetting that you can bypass used game stores and sell directly with sites such as Amazon [amazon.com], half.com [half.com], ebay [ebay.com], etc.
So, for example, when I buy a used game for $30 -- because I never buy brand new games, and I don't care to play online anyways, I can sell it again in a few weeks for approximately the same price, minus the cost of shipping.
I disagree. If buying new were the only option I had, I would simply do without. It's the same argument for pirates -- if they had to pay full price, they'd simply do without. This isn't something that I personally lose any sleep over. It's very easy to stop consuming (overpriced) entertainment, and there are many alternatives in the world to occupy one's time with.
Fair disclosure: I'm a software developer in the video games industry. (And I'm supposed to be writing some code right now. :-X)
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, that's stupid. They are both luxury items, especially when new. Or maybe you think the 75% of the world that doesn't own a car isn't getting by at all.
Does not own a car != does not have access to a car. A couple with children that share a car have as far as I consider it all a car, so you can multiply the 1 billion plus cars with a pretty big factor. I don't own a car but it's because I live in a fairly big city with good public transportation so I only exceptionally need one and I have family I can borrow from and several leasing/pooling options as well. That does not in any way mean I consider cars as a luxury. I consider it a basic transportation tool that I happen to not have any need for on a daily basis. I think it comes down to your meaning of luxury, yes people lived before refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers, microwaves, TV, radio, computers, cell phones and even electricity. Some people still do, but does that mean billions are living in luxury today?
Standards change, 20 years ago having a cell phone was a luxury. Today there's over 5 billion cell phone subscriptions (july 2010) and it's the standard of living for all but the poorest people on earth, and even they typically share one in some form. Cars have long ceased to be any form of luxury in any sense I'd care to define it. It has become the backbone of society that let people get around and if you don't have one because you can't afford one even though there's not any good alternatives then you are poor, not missing a luxury. Society adapts too, when so many drive to the store it becomes longer between shops. Workplaces place themselves in commuting distances, not walking distances. In many rural areas it's now difficult to function in society without a car, it might not strictly be a necessity but your quality of life will be greatly diminished without one.
Re:You know why they call it Xbox 720 (Score:4, Insightful)
New games shouldn't have to compete with used games a week after the game is released.
Why not? If a game is so short lived that it gets sold as used a week after release then it should compete with the new games.
If you want your game to not be sold as used a week after release then make a game that will still be interesting/fun/etc a week after I buy it. I see the used games market as rental - it probably is harder to rent a game (like a movie) because you might want to play it for longer than a day, so you buy it and then sell it as used for less.
Movies are also consumed - I buy it, I watch it and I'm done with it for some time (or I may not want to watch it again ever). So, instead of buying, I can rent the movie. If I want to watch it a few years later, I can rent it again. Or if I want to have it or watch more times, I can buy it and keep it.
I also think that if people sold new cars after a few weeks and bought new ones, the car industry would be really happy. For one, the people who would sell a car after a few weeks will buy a new one from the dealership (not a car that is a few weeks old). So, the total number of cars would increase as the prices for older used cars drop. It would also displace old cars (after all, how many cars does one person need?), which means that the authorized mechanics would not need to support as many old cars as they do now.