Interplay Ex-CEO Brian Fargo Kickstarts Wasteland II 122
New submitter 0111 1110 writes "Attempting to emulate Double Fine's success to fund another currently dead genre of computer game, Brian Fargo of Interplay fame has started a kickstarter project for a sequel to Wasteland, his1988 post-apocalyptic RPG which inspired Fallout. It will be turn-based and party-based, with a top-down perspective and 2D graphics. Fargo has managed to attract many of the original developers, such as Alan Pavlish and Mike Stackpole, as well as Jason Anderson, who was a designer for Fallout, and Mark Morgan, who did the music for Planescape: Torment and both of the original Fallout games. Fargo's goal has been set at $900,000. Anything above that will be used for additional game content. At $1.5 million he will offer an OS X version. An interview with Fargo by Rock, Paper, Shotgun provides some additional insight into what he and his group are planning, as does a video interview with Matt Barton."
A dead genre? (Score:5, Insightful)
Attempting to emulate Double Fine's success to fund another currently dead genre of computer game...
Considering Double Fine were only after $400,000 and they've already passed the $3,200,000 mark, I'd say point and click adventure games aren't dead in the eyes of their customers.
Re:A dead genre? (Score:4, Funny)
The term currently dead is the key....it's like mostly dead, if it were completely dead you could only go through it's pockets for change but if it is currently dead then it implies it could be raised with a little help from a miracle worker of course.
Re:A dead genre? (Score:4, Insightful)
With one exception. Tell Tale Games has made some amazing Point & Click Adventure Games, re-launching the much loved Sam & Max and Monkey Island series. I have played all of their Sam & Max games and they are pretty excellent, even if they did start to focus too much on making them console accessible
Older games have been enjoying a comeback via Steam and mobile ports. I know the old Monkey Island games are available for iOS. Space Quest and King's Quest available on Steam, as well as the classic Indiana Jones: Fate of Atlantis. The classic Leisure Suit Larry games are out there on the nets somewhere (no clue if anyone is actually repackaging them for sale)... The new Leisure Suit Larry "reboot" games are just better off avoided at all costs. They're beyond awful and make the originals look incredibly classy, subtle, and tasteful (which says a lot IMHO).
The genre is enjoying a lot of renewed interest, but not enough (apparently) to justify major developers doing anything other than yet another clone of DDR, Guitar Hero, or Call of Duty. Maybe the Double Fine Kickstarter will wake the Industry and Media up. I haven't seen one word about either of these efforts on Wired.com and they tend to jump on these sorts of things in the way that a kitten jumps on a toy full of catnip.
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What baffles me on Point & Click games is this: why the hell aren't there more of them on phones?
Any of the original turn-based games that don't require any realtime movement (Ogre Tactics, Fallout, Myst, SWAT 2, etc.) are PERFECT for the phone platform. Hell, add a zoom function and rebind the key controls and you're pretty damn set. I'd much rather play a Myst game than Bejeweled on a phone. Then, my only concern would be throwing my phone out the window instead of throwing my whole PC.
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Myst in on some phones:
Myst on iOS [apple.com]
Cyan has another title on Android, so maybe they're gearing up for that too.
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There is no point because modern devices can emulate a 386 satisfactorily. Use qemu, problem solved.
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Linux... (Score:3)
Linux support is the typical response: "We are initially going to develop and release through Steam for PC. However, depending on how funding goes (*hint* *hint*) for the Kickstarter project, we are more than open to releasing it on other platforms too! [inxile-entertainment.com]" Sadly, when this is stated, it rarely comes to fruition.
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Less than 1% of the desktop market can't justify development for an entire alternate platform?
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Go http://www.humblebundle.com/ and see "total payments by platform", I see more than 1% for Linux.
Re:Linux... (Score:4, Informative)
Going by the total payments chart, they should primarily develop for Windows first since it's nearly 3/4 of the payments. After Windows, they should develop for Mac since it's slightly more than half of the non-Windows payments. Linux, even though it's more than 1% of the total payments, should still be dead last in their list of priorities since the evidence given suggests that it will give the lowest return on an investment.
And that's pretty much what they announced, isn't it? Windows first, Mac of funding reaches X amount, "other platforms" if funding allows.
Re:Linux... (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, I (and I am really not that special in this) will no longer spend money on a promise. When it has Linux support, I will consider spending money. If they say it might if we reach some goal we will not tell you about, nope... Seen that lie a few too many times.
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There are more benefits from porting games to MacOS and Linux aside from the Sales...
In the words Jeff from Wolfire: Why you should support Mac OS X and Linux [wolfire.com]
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While the article you linked has some interesting points (and some ridiculous ones), it's irrelevant.
Kickstarter is all or nothing. If the campaign doesn't meat the funding goal, no money is collected. It makes sense to try to appeal to the largest crowd.
You seem to be making one of two arguments:
1) They should have set the funding goal at $1.4 million (the level required for Windows and Mac versions) and not created any game at all if they didn't reach it.
2) They should have promised the Mac version at $
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No, he's saying that they should:
3. Develop for Mac and Windows simultaneously. It's not even hard. Write OpenAL and OpenGL plugins to your game engine, a few cocoa-specific parts so the program behaves nice in an iOS environment, problem solved! And Linux port is then even easier (since OpenAL/OpenGL already exists, all you need are a few Linux-specific hooks). I bet both would take one Mac expert about 2 months of work to write new plugins to the engine, at the maximum.
It's not an either-or proposition, a
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And that Mac expert is going to spend two months working for free, right? And whoever does testing and QA for the Mac version will work for free too, right? No extra funding required!
That's not how the real world works, of course, and they need more funding (which it appears they will get) to be able to produce Mac and Linux versions.
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That mac expert will not work for free, no. Nor is he expected to. He will cost around USD 10 000 - which is peanuts compared to 50-100% increased revenue.
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You obviously don't understand the concept of a Kickstarter campaign and I'm not going to bother trying to explain it.
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Oh, I do understand the concept of a kickstarter campaign. But I was under the impression kickstarter was just for funding the game creation, not ongoing costs post-release?
It's still 10k of 900k for a cross-platform game (as opposed to DirectX) that can run on Wii, PS3, Android, iPhone, Mac and Linux as well as Windows and XBox 360, and it requires very little extra money. Sure, you need to invest in a couple of extra drivers and add an abstraction layer, but today you add that abstraction layer in either
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When the Humble Bundles are consistently bringing in $5 million in Linux purchases, things might change. Until then, we're just dreaming.
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Less than 1% of the desktop market can't justify development for an entire alternate platform?
Maybe not, but if you plan ahead and use platform agnostic development practices porting or running on other platforms is no where near as hard as it used to be.
1% of the market might not be enough to develop a completely separate version if you're using directx, but opengl based games can be ported with very little headache with a little bit of advanced planning.
Just look at the humble bundle packs success. Sure, access to 1% of the market is not worth it but virtually assured sales to 0.5% of the ma
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Developing cross-platform is likely not as expensive/difficult as it once was in terms of gaming, this is true. However, there's more than development. The packaging (digital or the digital components of the physical, including the installer, patch management system, etc), QA and other resources don't scale and require significant investments for additional platforms.
More important is the fact that although a larger than average percentage of Linux users might be gamers (and I've never seen any stats either
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Less than 1% of the desktop market can't justify development for an entire alternate platform?
*cough*Android*cough*
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*cough*Desktop*cough*
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We can go on all night. And the OS companies feel that the phone/tablet/desktop market is converging. Just look at Gnome 3 Unity, Win 8, and the direction OSX is going.
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My point is that I was very specifically addressing only desktop installations. It's entirely possible that Android will have a presence in the desktop world in the future, but today, that's approximately 0% of existing desktop installs.
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If you use a cross-platform framework/language/engine, porting to a second platform can be under 1% of the cost. Some just make sure they use wine-compatible stuff, and package their game with a certain version of wine. There's almost-zero cost there.
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I touched on that in another reply. Development isn't as significant but performing QA, building installers, upgrade/patch management and similar doesn't scale at all and must be done from scratch on each platform so the ROI needs to be significant.
Worse, how many Linux gamers don't have access to another supported platform already? What good is it if you pull off 1% of your sales on Linux if 90% of those were a lost sale on another platform?
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My main desktop and my main laptop both run linux, and all the other systems I use, run BSD, so I don't have access to "other supported platforms".
Most non-geek linux-users won't have more than a single PC either.
As for installers, etc, desura might be an interesting choice for them, they've got their work cut out for them.
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Less than 1% of the desktop market can't justify development for an entire alternate platform?
Except that the development was already paid, in full, and Linux support was a requested by many backers. What the investors demand will be taken into lot more consideration then some comments on an Internet forum. That is why this kickstarter project is different.
Also, Linux is more then 1% of the desktops but there is no point debating that with someone that still think this is 1995.
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Well, this article indicated it's less than 2%: http://gcn.com/Articles/2011/08/10/ECG-Windows-7-Top-Selling-OS-by-End-of-2011.aspx?Page=2 [gcn.com]
Nothing against Linux, I use it and have installed it on other's computers, but it's extremely niche for the desktop.
Also, listening to investor demand? There's no accountability to Kickstarter, you don't become a chairman of the board by donating $15.
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Even if it's up to 2% desktop use, my argument still stands.
At $DAYJOB we don't really look at OSX or Linux because, even combined, they're such a tiny portion of the SMB market that even if we did invest the time to develop cross-platform, it wouldn't pay for the ongoing QA and support. (Plus we're a .NET shop and our product works with, although doesn't require, Active Directory, so the effort would be non-trivial for a less than ideal result)
I'm not a huge Linux fan myself, but I have a few Linux boxes t
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Still, I can't see running it as a primary desktop for anyone but a fan of Linux or in an extremely locked down environment.
My fiancée runs it, and she is finished her teaching degree, with a minor of social science. And she is no fan, or even techie... It just doesn't crash as much as windows did.
Also, all of the percentage numbers are going to be off. For example, I have 3 systems here that are counted as Windows sales, but only run Linux. I also have a few systems that report as Windows in the browser refer tags for badly written websites. The only real information is the Humble Indie Bundle where Linux is 20% - 25
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With the way the world is trending, you may want to review some of those decisions.
Active Directory is where large organizations keep their user and site information, which is why Macs and Linux can talk to it too.
Increasing sales of non-Windows devices (Mac, iOS, Android, etc.) at the same time as the Windows market is shrinking show that people are not nearly as locked into Windows as the industry once thought.
The developers that put in place a strategy today that is platform-agnostic will be the winners
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My lady uses Ubuntu now and I have to answer about 10% as many questions, and take over and fix something about 1/20 as often, as compared to when she was using the Windows XP that came with her Vostro 1500. The system runs quieter and cooler and seems faster.
I still use Windows in a virtual machine, but only to run games. All the productivity-type software I use now has a plausible alternative.
Linux is an ideal option for a primary desktop in any context because it is so much less likely to get owned, and
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With regards to Windows, I don't entirely disagree. However, there are APIs available that tell a developer/installer/whatever where the correct directories are located.
A properly written application designed in the last 90s for NT will manage to install in C:\Program Files\ (with or without the (x86) depending on whether the current OS needs it) automatically, and will find the %userprofile%\AppData\Roaming\ directory despite the fact that such a thing wasn't used at all in NT. No repackaging needed, altho
Will not support this.. (Score:1)
without a commitment to support Linux at release. I don't run Windows, and hoping to use wine as a kludge isn't something I'm willing to pay for.
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And you are right, that they would not notice if he was the only one. But I feel exactly the same way, and honestly we are not that special.
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The finished game in all of its awesome glory DRM free on PC, Mac, and Linux, or via Steam for PC and Mac, exclusive access to the Beta on Steam...
if you donate 15 USD or more.
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look on the bright side, if you buy in for $15 now you get a DRM-free copy (hopefully this means no steam, but I do have steam if needed to download it, and steam does run on Linux) which will probably work in wine and/or vmware player before long.
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Matt Barton (Score:4, Informative)
Anyone who's not familiar with Matt should definitely check out his podcast. He has a lot of great interviews with real elders of gaming. The names range from Scott Adams to John Romero. And he just lets them reminisce. If you're interested in the development of your favorite classic games, or the personal histories of game design greats, or way the game industry has changed over the past 30 years, you'll get some great perspectives from watching Matt Chat.
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Scott Adams
Just to clarify, this isn't the Dilbert guy, is it?
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There's another Scott Adams who just about invented the text adventure.
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As another person said, no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Adams_(game_designer) [wikipedia.org]
turn-based isometric RPGs, how I have missed you! (Score:5, Insightful)
it seems that in american games anyways, the true RPG has gone the way of the dodo, and all we get now are FPS-RPG hybrids. while fallout 3 was fine, it was no fallout 1 or 2. i LIKE turn based top down gameplay. It's relaxing, and i can see everything thats going on easily.
i am VERY interested in seeing where this goes.
Re:turn-based isometric RPGs, how I have missed yo (Score:5, Insightful)
Hear hear!!
I miss good ol' fashioned turn-based role-playing games, like the old SSI ADnD-based games (Pools of Twilight, Pools of Radiance, etc).
"RPGs" nowadays are more hack'n slash, mouse-button mashfests than anything else (WoW, Diablo, Icewind Dale, etc).
I don't want to play a twitch-reaction game. I want to control a party of characters and take my time thinking about how to use their various skills together against large groups of enemies. I want turn-based action.
If I wanted a FPS (which I don't, can't stand them), I'd buy one. But I want an RPG. When was the last time you played a paper-n-pencil RPG where it was "whoever can roll the fastest gets to attach"? It's all turn-based.
Bring back the turn-based RPGs!!
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Not arguing with your point but you have a pretty liberal definition of 'nowadays'.
Icewind Dale was released twelve years ago, as was the last iteration of Diablo (not that I'm claiming the new one would be much different).
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I gave up on RPGs on the PC after Icewind Dale, and haven't seen/heard anything since to make it worthwhile trying anything.
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The pseudo-real-time auto-pause mode in Icewind Dale is crap, especially with large groups of enemies. It's not turn-based in the least. A real turn-based combat system lets you select the movements/attacks of all your characters. Then everyone (yourself and the enemies) plays out there attacks (thus completing one turn). Then you select all the movements/attacks for your characters. And then they all play out.
Icewind Dale's auto-pause setup was no better than twitch-fest button mashing since it kept pa
Re:turn-based isometric RPGs, how I have missed yo (Score:4, Insightful)
Fallout Bible (Score:2)
Re:turn-based isometric RPGs, how I have missed yo (Score:5, Interesting)
Better than isometric is the upcoming XCOM from Firaxis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uHHmTSDCvA [youtube.com]
You might also be interested in my short post on Temple of Elemental Evil the other day:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2719507&cid=39323731 [slashdot.org]
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I had no idea they were remaking xcom, holy crap. i am giddy with excitement. now i just need someone to make another game like planescape:torment and the triumvirate will be complete...
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What's left of Team Torment is thinking about it [obsidian.net]. Chris Avellone, the mastermind behind PS:T, would like to make it [obsidian.net]. You might want to let him know yourself how you feel. I would guess that the success or failure of Brian Fargo's attempt will affect their decision on whether or not to do their own kickstart funded sequel-in-spirit to Planescape: Torment.
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2k Games (Borderlands, Bioshock) + Firaxis (Civ). I really, really cannot wait. I love the idea of the 'glam cam', I think it will blend the lines between action FPS and tactical turn based. The youtube vid looks so slick. If they keep a lot of the research, manufacture and soldier development in, and add in more tactical (like their example of different types of cover) options, I'll be buying this game on day 1, not waiting for sales, or second hand copy.
This is one of those games that is so rare, in that
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Better than isometric is the upcoming XCOM from Firaxis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uHHmTSDCvA [youtube.com]
Oh wow. Oh yeah. Hell yeah!
Thanks!
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It seems like they're keeping the gameplay and just adding some shiny graphical elements... ... which is totally fucking awesome!
My laundry list for a remake would also include multiplayer (2 squads going after aliens or one player is the aliens one is the human, or x number of players where each player controls one soldier and one is the base commander) oh god I want this game now please.
No kidding I love turn based tactical games (Score:3)
I went in for $50 on this because I bet I'd enjoy the hell out of it.
For those wondering how the funding works it is all through Amazon.com. You authorize a payment in a given amount and Amazon will tell you the valid dates. If the funding goal is reached, Kickstarter tells Amazon to collect the payments, and they charge you account. If not, no charge is made. So no worries about CC fraud or any of that, Amazon is handling the payment auth.
Only real risk would be that the developers would never deliver the
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[turn-based out of combat? what a pain that would be!]
with few exceptions, the old games you speak of were turn based, so while they are FP, it would be a far stretch to call them S - there are no shooter / fast paced / twitch elements to them.
fallout 3, oblivion, skyrim - the combat in those is actually FPS in nature. yes, VATS was a nice option to get the tactical feel back, and i'm not saying fallout 3 was a bad game - i enjoyed it quite a lot - but the gameplay definitely had a very different feel, for
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FPS means first person SHOOTER.
Even though Bard's Tale & Wizardry (the only ones I'm very familiar with) have first person viewpoint (wireframe 3D in Wizardry in the dungeons), the gameplay is turn-based.
BTW, I realize it wasn't done by Interplay, but by Brian Fargo, the PS2 Bard's Tale "reimagining" was very fun to play. (It doesn't fit with the turn based gameplay, however.)
Established genre's are a hard sell (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a reason that Starcraft 2 took about 12 years to show up.
Any given game (and this probably applies to movies and to TV to some extent) will have an initial title that proves the concept as being worth pursuing, followed by a title that effectively represents the pinnacle of the genre. For 3d Shooters you had Wolfenstien which led to Doom. For MMO's you initially had Ultima online, which gave way to Everquest, and in turn gave way to World of Warcraft. And for RTS games you had Dune which led to Warcraft 2 which led to Starcraft.
Once you have that definitive product, competitors start to back off, realizing that they have no chance to dethrone the reigning king of the genre. The expectations of the fans keep escalating, and since you can never please everyone, you have fans of the genre start to splinter off, or perhaps just get bored. Since sales fall off, the resources for sequels fall off, and that basically buries the genre.
The endgame is that the creators of the 'pinnacle' product eventually stop making new iterations, and that the competitors have usually abandoned that pursuit some time before that point. Eventually no one is making new games in that genre. Metaphorically, the challengers stopped playing the game when it was too difficult to win at it, and the champion stopped only because the rewards for victory were no longer enough to justify the effort.
But the market for that genre still exists, and after about 10 years, a new generation is available to exploit. If the original concept was strong enough, the fans are probably hungry enough that a new iteration should be successful.
END COMMUNICATION
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But the market for that genre still exists, and after about 10 years, a new generation is available to exploit. If the original concept was strong enough, the fans are probably hungry enough that a new iteration should be successful
I think this is what Kickstarter is showing it excels at. When the public is ready, the project will succeed, and that readiness will be demonstrated by the strength of cash on hand rather than the begging and ranting of some crazy fan.
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I disagree with your overall assessment. In fact, I find most of these 'pinnacles' to be less interesting than the originals. Originality and a new take on things trumps everything in my book.
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"There is a reason that Starcraft 2 took about 12 years to show up."
The reason it took 12 years for SC2 to show up was world of warcraft was a success even blizzard didn't predict. They predicted they'd get something like 400,000 consistent subs, and it shot up into millions. Warcraft is what put Starcraft and diablo sequels on the backburner, it wasn't because other game companies couldn't compete in the space. We had Company of heroes, dawn of war and supreme commander. All valiant attempts in the RTS
I don't think your judgement is accurate (Score:4, Informative)
For one, I'd say that this concept of the second game being the "pinnacle" is very flawed. The best example is MMOs. Ultima wasn't the first MMO, nor was EQ the pinnacle. If anything is to be called the pinnacle it would be WoW. Also it isn't like all genres die out either. Turn based strategy games are still going strong. Heard of Civilization 5? AAA title, released last year. How about Total War: Shogun 2. It is not nearly as large a genre as shooters, but it isn't dead by a long shot, and isn't even a "just indie" market.
For that matter sometimes things will have a pinnacle, and then another later. Many TBS fans said Civ 2 was the pinnacle. They didn't care for Civ 3 as much, nor many other games that came after Civ 2. Then Civ 4 hit and man. Best. Civ. EVAR. Another pinnacle, better than the last. It isn't as though things peak and then are on a death spiral after that.
Some genres die out, but often that is just due to the companies that are involved in them sucking. Many companies will have run off to some new things ignoring it. The companies that stay and try for the niche do a shit job, release games nobody likes, and that leads to a feedback cycle where nobody wants to back the projects because they perceive them as making no money.
In terms of this game, I think it has quite a good chance at success. People have shown a love for old school type RPGs, and for TBT games (Frozen Synapse did quite well, indy TBT title all combat). The people behind it are people who know what they are doing, they are people with real successful games to their credit.
Also Starcraft 2 took so long because:
1) Blizzard is really slow at development, for a number of reasons.
2) They got even slower because of WoW, which was all consuming with them for awhile.
There have been a bunch of RTS games since Starcraft 2, many of which have done real well.
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The 'pinnacle' game is not necessarily going to be the 2nd. It might come later, or perhaps the first game stands up as the pinnacle. With the Civ games, the later one replaces the older one in the series, and that is just iterating on their own success.
Also, there are not many developers going head to head with the Civ series these days, is there?
In any case, every successful genre seems to reach a point where a particular game is considered the standard to measure other games of that type against, and of
Yeah, WASTELAND!!! (Score:1)
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+1.
This is outstanding news.
I'm so delighted with this, in fact that the first thing I did (after buying in at kickstarter) is dust off my slashdot login so I could post saying that. ^
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Wasteland II has been an idea kicking around for 20 years in one form or another. For a long time, most people thought that Fallout was to be the successor.
Guess that isn't the case now.
Here's to carving up robots with your proton ax!
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I posted news of this kickstarter campaign to Facebook and my *sister* replied, "We played the **** out of Wasteland!"
Wasteland has the distinction of being the one game from my childhood that was too hard to beat, AND that I came back years later to finally beat it when I had the skills. I can't think of another game that I came back to beat later. It's definitely in my top 5, if not top 2 games from childhood.
I can't freaking wait. :D
No Linux support? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Their willingness to support Linux (and Tim Shafer's offbeat and silly style) is one of the reasons I became a backer of the Double Fine Adventure. Linux support makes me about 10 times more likely to spend money on a game, and I haven't bought a PC-only game in about 6 years because I don't run Windows. Seriously. Now this guy comes in, wants more money, and only grudgingly offers the possibility of an OS X port if they get enough money.
Nope, sorry.
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It's way way easier to install Windows in a virtual machine (free vmware player) than it is to get a lot of Linux games to work. About a third of what I've got in humble bundles doesn't run on Ubuntu, which is the most popular distribution there is! I just get an error. Haven't gone back to check on updates, because I have so many games to play anyway... usually on Windows.
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Where am I going to get a copy of Windows to run in the VM? Not to mention that's a pretty huge pain.
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If I buy it, I'm giving money to Microsoft. And that's not OK by me. Yes, they're nearly irrelevant nowadays. But they still haven't changed the behaviors that make them objectionable to give my business to.
Wasn't there already a sequel? (Score:2)
It was called Fountain of Dreams. I remember playing it and found that the quality was much lower than Wasteland, but I was glad to have any sequel to begin with. My memory is not as clear as back then, but was that the one where you played a bunch of rangers and could mutate as you wandered the wasteland?
(Wasteland was followed in 1990 by a less-successful intended sequel, Fountain of Dreams, set in post-war Florida. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasteland_(video_game)#Legacy [wikipedia.org] )
Not saying that I wouldn't
Re:Wasn't there already a sequel? (Score:4, Informative)
From the Wiki page: "It was originally intended as a follow-up to Wasteland, but neither Interplay nor any of the creative team that created Wasteland worked on it".
In other words, no, it wasn't.
It's a niche, but it's a niche no one occupies now (Score:3, Interesting)
Starflight! (Score:2)
Would much rather have seen a sequel to Starflight!
And with none of this 2D grassroots bs, either. But I would settle for Oolite grade 3D space travel as long as it has decent storyline and atmospheric reentry sequences with super-fine planetary exploration missions.
I lost way more than 40hrs to both Starflight and the sequel each.
What's being started? (Score:2)
Music (Score:2)
how should you play the original today? (Score:1)
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I'm pretty sure you're looking for 2400 A.D. [wikipedia.org] I played it on the Apple ][c, too.