Ubisoft Claims PC Piracy Rate of 93-95% 464
silentbrad sends this quote from GamesIndustry:
"Ubisoft CEO Yves Guillemot has told GamesIndustry International that the percentage of paying players is the same for free to play as it is for PC boxed product: around five to seven per cent. ... 'On PC it's only around five to seven per cent of the players who pay for F2P, but normally on PC it's only about five to seven per cent who pay anyway, the rest is pirated. It's around a 93-95 per cent piracy rate, so it ends up at about the same percentage. The revenue we get from the people who play is more long term, so we can continue to bring content.' ... 'We must be careful because the consoles are coming. People are saying that the traditional market is declining and that F2P is everything — I'm not saying that. We're waiting for the new consoles — I think that the new consoles will give a huge boost to the industry, just like they do every time that they come. This time, they took too long so the market is waiting.'"
DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Interesting)
uh... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ubisoft_games I could go thru this list and pick probably 20 worth playing.
However the original comment I would say stands. So you end up with 90% piracy rate and piss off those who REALLY do pay for it. How exactly was that DRM boondoggle good again?
I personally have deliberately skipped a few games lately if they have ubisoft on them even if they have the steam DRM in them. I have 0 problem paying for my games. I have a big problem with games that eventually expire, flake out because of DRM, or require a DVD to be in the drive all the time. I am not going to give my money to a company that up front wants to treat me like I want to steal from them. I do not even pirate their games. I have too many to play that work just fine with no DRM in them at all.
In spite of the DRM I still buy my games. Then crack them. I do not want a CD running all the time. Most are game CDs are poorly made and make most drives vibrate which is annoying on a laptop... Surprisingly most DVDs are better made and vibrate very little.
I just will not be buying ubisoft games until they cut the crap of treating me like a thief. It only makes me say 'skip' every time no matter how good their games are.
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Insightful)
And then they'll count you and your cracked (purchased) copy as a pirated copy. No wonder they get such high numbers in their estimates.
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Thier DRM is so bad that I crack it every fucking time.
Even though I legitimately own many Ubisoft games I'm counted as a pirate just because I've downloaded a cracked EXE or loader so I don't have to deal with DRM-related crashes.
Like Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic I and II. Both were DRM Crippled. They'd crash constantly. ALL of my problems disappeared as soon as I installed cracked EXEs. Those games got better reviews from the pirates than from the real players because the DRM-Stripped version was more stable.
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Funny)
FUCK their estimates. I want hard scientific data of how they got their supposed numbers.
Google "goatse" and you'll find a picture that shows where they pulled the numbers from.
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Have you ever seen a game developed by Ubisoft worth playing?
Their "Rainbow Six" series was pretty cool.
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OK, you like some of their games, that's a matter of taste.
But saying they're the "best game publisher" is unconvincing. They put out some of the worst console ports, buggy games and horribly intrusive DRM.
They've had a few titles that I've played and enjoyed, but I've always cursed something about a Ubisoft game. It cuts into the enjoyment when you have to grind your teeth about something during the experience of playing.
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Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think he's putting spin on this - he doesn't say 93-95% is pirated, he says 5-7% pay for free-to-play compared to BOXED SET, as in retail. He doesn't mention how much business is digital download, and TFA is reading into it to say he means the rest is pirated (but that is all due to the spin he wanted to put on it). It would not surprise me AT ALL if only 5-7% of game sales is retail these days (probably more on console than PC, however).
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Informative)
this is a quote from TFA where it is quoted from Yves Guillemot
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I heard (through channels that I can't even reconstruct) roughly the same numbers from Ubisoft a couple of months ago. That same source said that the numbers were obtained by checking the game copies that conntected to the metaservers for online play. So if that's true, the numbers are valid, and probably even too low because pure offline play isn't included.
The caveat: if they can detect pirated copies that way, why aren't they blocked?
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The DRM scheme is working fine their piracy rates are by 5-7% from 100% piracy to 93-95%
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the truth is that the "Free to Play" games aren't worth the price.
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess is because:
- They hope that the next DRM will work
- They hope that, even if the DRM gets broken, that they'll still have a period of time when it's not broken. Having a few months of sales with zero pirates (even if the DRM gets broken on the third month) is actually useful.
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What if the DRM costs $$$ via increased customer support and returns (if possible)? Or just people avoiding buying their games? I know as a paying customer, I avoid companies that give me a hard time using their product, if possible and decent alternatives exist. Not so much games (I don't play) but utilities and the like.
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Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's likely the DRM is driving people to piracy, even those who purchased the game, since the DRM frequently makes the game unplayable.
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Informative)
Yup, their DRM makes their games unplayable on my computer. Standard Windows PC with the only optical drive being a DVD burner. You know, one of the standard choices available on most PCs. Their customer support people got angry that I kept pressing the issue and told me to read the box more carefully next time I buy a game... Guess what, I will do that: I will skip anything that says Ubisoft on the box. It didn't say anything about not working if a burner was present.
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Are you serious? A Ubisoft game won't run on a system with a DVD burner drive?!?!?
Jesus, no wonder people pirate their games. I'm not even a big anti-DRM zealot and even I wouldn't put up with that shit. Every system I own has a DVD burner.
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Informative)
I just wanted to play Raving Rabbids. Yeah, imagine my embarrassment when I had to tell my girlfriend's family, who gave not-financially-well-off me the gift card for Christmas, that I'd bought a game I couldn't play and basically their money was wasted. Telling her was bad enough. I couldn't even return the game since it was already open. Ubisoft wouldn't help, the store wouldn't help. So they don't get any more of my money and I'm happy to tell the story.
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah the guy probably has that or some ISO mounter installed and is mistaken on the error message.
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Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Funny)
So remind us Ubisoft, why exactly did you create that horrible DRM?
The DRM is the only thing keeping piracy rate under 100% and away from the natural 1000%-1300%!
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who bought up every game leading up to GRAW2, Pretty much every Prince of Persia, and most of the Splinter Cell games, but only the first AC game - that's a significant amount of cash. So this is an important point:
Ubisoft, a couple of years ago....I QUIT YOU.
I put up with the lack of patches for some games, and the Single-player games laden with always-on connections/drm/rootkits are where I draw the line. Just because you have some franchises, doesn't mean you no longer have to compete. There are plenty of new games every week that are vying for my money. I have NO problem finding entertainment that isn't trying to piss me off. (The way I see it, that 7% deserves to dwindle, the pirates clearly make a better product than you. How can you spit numbers like that, and have no clue) I've flipped you guys the bird, and it's still flyin'....C'est la vie, looks like I wasn't the only one.
Sad, I *still* play my Ghost Recon games...but Future Soldier is off the table for my pc. Maybe I'll pick up a copy for the PS3.... ....Used.
Re:DRM worked out then.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not saying 'pirate!' either. It is undeniably legitimate to choose other ways of spending one's money and time.
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Blizzard lost me with Diablo 3, due to service outages preventing me from playing initially and then their stance of blaming me for not buying an authenticator fob when my account gets hacked. 10 years on SOE and my account stayed safe. 2 weeks on Blizzard and I'm robbed of every ounce of gold my level 10 character had collected.
So let's
Riiiight (Score:5, Interesting)
The catch is they were measuring the number of people who pirate Ubisoft games to get away from their shitty DRM. Somehow, I feel over 90% of people willing to do that is accurate.
Didn't they sell (Score:5, Funny)
over a million copies of Ass Creed 2 on the pc? Are they straight faced saying that almost a hundred million people played Ass Creed 2 on pc?
Re:Didn't they sell (Score:5, Informative)
Your math is off. It would be 20-30 million. Still unlikely, I admit.
But the thing that's missing from the headline is that Guillemot is claiming 95-97% pirated copies for all games, not just Ubisoft's. And the only reason he even cares is that it helps justify him switching to a Free to Play model, where the percentages of users who pay is also about 5% and costs are much lower.
So, even though his facts are very dubious, he's using them to justify moving away from DRM. So, who cares?
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So, share with us why you consider F2P to be a turd sandwich.
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That's more of a problem with FPSes, though TF2 does happen to be a game that didn't have as much of a problem with idiot kids until it went F2P. No, the major problem with F2P is that it usually devolves to P2W (pay-to-win), where the stuff they charge you for is necessary to do well at the game. I'd rather pay upfront for a game where everyone is on an equal playing field than end up paying the same amount (or more) for a game where money trumps skill or perseverance. (TF2 is ironically the best exampl
Re:Didn't they sell (Score:5, Insightful)
Once you throw in all the people who bought Xbox and PS3 versions of the game, the numbers get ridiculous again though. 9 million copies total, apparently 1 million of those are on PC + the 12 to 20 million alleged pirated copies. So, you're now saying that almost 30 million people were playing Assassins Creed II? I find that doubtful personally.
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I think you must be in a bubble, video-game wise. Assassin's Creed is insanely popular (after all, the non-pirate sales are millions...)
Also, Ubisoft didn't claim that all their properties were pirated equally. Maybe the most popular ones are also disproportionately paid-for.
I really have insufficient data to confirm or deny their claim, and I expect the same is true for you.
DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
So what's the point of all that DRM if 90% of your potential customers are breaking it? Wouldn't it be better to go DRM free so that people could actually play the game as shipped instead of downloading a crack and getting counted as a pirate?
Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
A better argument is you're wasting huge amounts of programming effort, support costs, and bad PR on something that fails far more often than 19 out of 20 times, so you'd have a higher profit margin if you didn't waste money on it. Sort of a "once you find yourself stuck in a hole, rule one is stop digging"
Re:DRM (Score:5, Insightful)
Civ4 BTS no longer has DRM, though they did it sometime around the time Civ5 came out.
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Mark my words: Diablo 3 will be the paradigm (Score:5, Informative)
DRM is so old school my friend. Diablo 3 showed us that people will pay for a single-player game where only the art is on the client and the code runs on the server. Fast forward ten years: computing and bandwidth will be much cheaper and more powerful and the whole thing will be transparent to nearly everyone.
Diablo 3 will be the model for making people buy games.
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Well, best of luck with that for them. I know I'll never buy another Blizzard game that is built that way. I got Diablo III as part of my 1 year WoW subscription, so I didn't even bother looking into the DRM aspects, otherwise I'd have never purchased it (in spite of being a huge fan of the other Diablo titles). I haven't bothered playing it since I discovered it was online only.
Re:Mark my words: Diablo 3 will be the paradigm (Score:4, Interesting)
That's OK. We have three decades of gaming to choose from. If they stop making games today, I'll have plenty of games to play for the rest of my life.
The only loser in the deal is the gaming industry. If they want my money, they have to make games on acceptable terms. Otherwise I don't need them at all.
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But Steam's DRM doesn't suck, is the thing. Yes, there are /. geeks who oppose all DRM on priniciple, but for most people it's a more practical question of whether the DRM gets in the way or not. And Steam does a good job of getting out of the way (though it should be better for network outages), unlike Ubisoft DRM which just flat out won't run the game you just bought on many PCs, or DRM that installs rootkits or the like.
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I buy games from sources that actually put effort into good, DRM-free work. Most of my games are from GoG these days.
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I agree, I don't think anyone thinks piracy will go away completely. They want to make a nice living and be able to make the games they want to make. I don't think you can blame t
All the power to them. (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's one thing I learned, it's that companies will do whatever the hell they want and as customers we can suck it up or do something about it. Unfortunately, like spam, they make enough money from people that they see no reason to change.
I refuse to buy Ubisoft products anymore. Same with Blizzard and Sony. And when other people complain about how they got screwed as if it was some new revelation, I just sit back and enjoy the schadenfreude.
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Hell yeah. Buy games from companies who care about their customers. The more money the nice companies make, the more incentive for the giants to mend their ways - otherwise they might one day become extinct as the nice companies will make so much money that they will out-compete the giants.
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Re:All the power to them. (Score:4, Informative)
The core question.... (Score:2)
[citation needed]
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100% - 7% Paying != 93% Piracy (Score:4, Informative)
...lest we forget aftermarket sales. It's a physical disc that can be sold & resold. These people are not pirates, but their purchases are not going directly to the game production company as attributable to that particular game, either.
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I suspect Ubisoft would disagree.
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For greedy companies like ubisoft, piracy and second hand sales are both seen as unwanted competition.
Re:100% - 7% Paying != 93% Piracy (Score:5, Funny)
People are playing the game without paying money to Ubisoft. Even worse, there are these "first-hand" owners who are profiting from Ubisoft's hard work and intellectual property. If that's not piracy, what is?
Don't you know that every time someone plays the game and the publisher receives less than the full retail price, it's stealing? If you buy last year's $60 game new-in-box off the $10 bargain shelf, then 5/6ths of the game's cost is lost to piracy. It's plain old mathematics. Why is this so hard for you people to understand?
Not nearly as impressive (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not nearly as impressive (Score:4, Interesting)
Added to that is the fact that free to play is generally cheaper to produce and distribute, able to cannibalise existing assets and avoid the costs of getting boxes on shelves. Whilst this does make the creation of new games easier, Guillemot was keen to point out that it's not a magic recipe - games must still be tailored to fit the audience's needs.
"We also take content which we've developed in the past, graphics etc, and we can make cheaper games and improve them over time. What's very important is that we change the content and make it a better fit to the customer as time goes on."
Does this sound to anyone else, like he's advocating cookie cutter games that are bulked up with updates after their release?
Sounds to me like they're aiming for a shit game rate of 105%
Price inflation? (Score:5, Funny)
So if we had 0% piracy, should their games cost $3.00?
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He's right about the consoles taking too long (Score:5, Insightful)
The traditional lifespan between consoles is 5 years, going all the way back to the Atari 2600 days. This time, MS is now at 6 years old with no new console in sight, and Sony is at 5 years, also with no new console in sight. A lot of developers are getting nervous, and a lot of franchises are growing stale.
Re:He's right about the consoles taking too long (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not the console stopping them, it's not making good games.
Re:He's right about the consoles taking too long (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not the console stopping them, it's not making good games.
Mod parent insightful. The first thing you'll see for any next-gen system is the same IP being rehashed for another go-around. Metroid, Mario, & Zelda, and that's just Nintendo's IP. It's like the while DVD vs Bluray debacle: same story but new shininess, so please buy it all over again.
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We're increasingly getting diminishing returns with new console generations; the difference in what you can do with a 7 year old XBox 360 and what you can do with a modern top-of-the-line gaming PC has not yet become compelling enough to justify new hardware.
I also don't see why staleness has anything to do with the console generation. There's nothing new in terms of story or gameplay that a new console would enable...
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We're increasingly getting diminishing returns with new console generations; the difference in what you can do with a 7 year old XBox 360 and what you can do with a modern top-of-the-line gaming PC has not yet become compelling enough to justify new hardware.
get a 1080p monitor with multiple hdmi inputs. hook your modern gaming pc up to one input, and your ps3 or xbox up to the other. pull up a game released for both platforms. one of the call of duties, mass effect 3, whatever. go to the same scene on both platforms. flip back and forth. I guarantee you'll be amazed at how much better the pc version looks. it's easily a "generation" ahead. when you stop to consider that most of the time these games are programmed for console first, and then later retrofitted f
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there's no new sony console in sight cause sony is -still- recouping costs for the rediculous development cost of the PS3.
no idea what MS's excuse is.
honestly, I'm not sure why either one of them doesn't just grab the cheapest phenom quad core, slap in a GTX650 and 8gb of ram, write "legitmately 5x faster than waht you've got now", and sell it for $250.
i mean seriously, the existing consoles have a tri-core that nobody can program for, and the rough equivilent of an geforce 7800 (although with unified shade
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I want a console that never requires me to upgrade or look at a "System Requirements" label on the game I'm buying. Does your "PC" console satisfy those criteria?
Re:He's right about the consoles taking too long (Score:4, Insightful)
You want a console that never requires you to upgrade? How is that 8-bit NES working for you? Still playing around with Excitebike, are you?
Does your "PC" console satisfy those criteria?
Goddamn right it does. My PC is ridiculously high-end enough that the system requirements don't apply. This is what "state of the art means", in case you're wondering. Even games that have "suggested hardware" are way behind the specs of my machine. That's the secret - upgrade every few years to the top of the line and system requirements no longer apply to you. I built my new computer for Skyrim when it came out and from the start I could run it smoothly at 1920x1200 with all display settings maxed out, even with the high-res texture and other graphics mods (you do have mods for your console games, right?). I even have a spare video card slot just waiting for a second Geforce once the polygon counts get even more ridiculous in a few years. By that time it will cost me maybe $200 or $300 to effectively double my machine's gaming performance.
But, if you're happy with a new gaming machine every 5+ years that gets released with hardware that is already out of date and has games that you aren't able to modify, then a console is definitely for you. You don't have to check system requirements, so you've got that going for you I guess. That must be nice.
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How the Major Publishers calculate piracy (Score:5, Insightful)
1 - ((Number of sales title actually got) / (Number of sales title the studio wanted to get)) = Piracy Rate.
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Funny is more important than math. But I'll gladly issue a patch:
If ( PirateRate <0) {
logerror("Sales should never exceed delusional expectations. Recalculating...");
ExpectedSales = ActualSales*10;
return CalculatePiracyRate(ExpectedSales, ActualSales);
}
There is NO WAY this is correct. MATH INSIDE (Score:5, Insightful)
The last ghost recon has sold 1.03 million units so far world wide. Which assuming the 95% piracy rate means 20.6 million units would have been sold or 14.7million units at the 93% piracy rate.
The original Bioshock on xbox360 only moved 2.53 million units worldwide, and we can assume a very low piracy rate as it was on Xbox 360 only. That game was a huge hit, the Last Ghost Recon did well not amazing.... So you are saying that between 5-9 time more people played Ghost recon vs Bioshock? Yes the lat Ghost recon has cross platform but even if you take that into account...
Anyone else see the math issue?
Data pulled from here. http://www.vgchartz.com/game/43311/tom-clancys-ghost-recon-future-soldier/ [vgchartz.com]
Incorrect assumption? (Score:5, Informative)
As I said in my other comment, he specifically mentions "countries" where their games were "played but not bought" before stating the 93-95% piracy rate. Assuming he's talking about those developing countries with rampant bootlegs and counterfeits, that would fall under the 0.10m "Rest of the World" sales. Using that number, you're talking about 1.4-2.0m pirated copies. That's still a huge number compared to only 1.03m actual sales, but it's much more reasonable than 15-20m. That would result in a total of about 3m copies, which is more in line with your Bioshock number (which was released nearly 5 years ago, so there should be more consoles worldwide now).
Re:There is NO WAY this is correct. MATH INSIDE (Score:4, Funny)
Data pulled from here. http://www.vgchartz.com/game/43311/tom-clancys-ghost-recon-future-soldier/ [vgchartz.com]
Sorry, I'm SO not clicking that link. When you have a story about a game manufacturer claiming 95% piracy rates, and say "Data pulled from here:" with a URL, I just assume I'm gonna get goatse'd.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics (Score:2)
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Lesson heard loud and clear (Score:5, Insightful)
He might be right (Score:3)
It sounds like he's referring to the typical countries where counterfeit and pirated products of all types are sold on every corner (as opposed to the dirty thieves in the US who are just too cheap to pay for it). I'm sure there are many US pirates that they are now getting more revenue from as well, but it sounds like this is specifically targeting the locations where bootlegs are the norm over legitimate products.
Paying Customers (Score:3)
Perhaps the games suck (Score:5, Insightful)
Because a simple game like Minecraft has several, millions of paying customers. And most of them came in when the game was at full price, as opposed to the cheaper prereleases.
So... how come people are willing to pay for Minecraft and not for Ubisoft's games?
Not piracy (Score:3)
I'm willing to bet they're actually counting a whole lot of us in a percentage that high as pirates, who actually just aren't playing their games at all. Once they started down their horrible DRM path I just stopped playing their games in any fashion. After all, they're just games, not a one of them will kill me if I don't play it.
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Ditto, I refuse to buy any game with always online DRM for the single player part of the game for the moment (I'm so glad that prevented me from buying D3 BTW). When BG&E2 comes out I'll have to revalue that position, but for now Ubisoft is losing sales in my case.
Contrast to Valve (Score:5, Interesting)
Valve has indicated, in their public statements on the issue, that piracy has has a negligible impact on their bottom line in any market they make their product available in. Notably, they indicated that when they made their products available on day 1 in the Russian market, Russian piracy dried up.
Any bets on whether Ubisoft checks the IPs and ignores 'piracy' in areas they are not making the game available in? No takers? Didn't think so.
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Valve's ability to make available popular titles through Steam in many markets and their near non-existent DRM probably contributes to the decline in piracy of Valve titles. Sure you need to be logged into a Steam account to run them but some of those Steam games are actually free to play anyways.
I bought CS:GO yesterday and will continue to buy my games from Steam. Assuming that Valve follows through on their promise to make Linux ports of their games and I'll even support their efforts by buying extra cop
I don't buy or even play Ubisoft games (Score:4, Insightful)
Simple facts. Nasty company. Nasty DRM.
I don't tend to pirate games now, because of two core reasons:
1. Steam, and steam value - I feel in most cases I can buy games for a fair price, usually in the sales. The sales are probably at a level that I am willing to pay. Companies are *going to have to accept low price, high volume. Not the reverse.
2. The virus and malware landscape simply means I am generally unwilling to allow unknown/untrusted exe or similar files on my systems. Thats fundamentally a deeper threat to me than evil gamesellers DRM, but both are a threat.
But Ubisoft, frankly, you are a foul, nasty company. Your DRM antics mean you don't deserve to survive. Either learn the lessons or go die. Seriously.
The joys of made up numbers (Score:3)
Or maybe Ubisoft just make games people don't want?
According to some random web site [vgchartz.com] Skyrim has sold 2.36 million copies on the PC. So by their 93% number 31.4 million pirates must have "stolen" it - three times the total sales on PS3 and xbox. Even for a purely single player game with a readily available warez copy hat doesn't pass the smell test.
So let's count their sins (Score:3)
Killed the Might and Magic series (especially the RPGs, but Heroes is just a shadow of its former self as well).
Killed Beyond Good and Evil.
Killed Settlers.
(Personal opinion) Splinter Cell is just a Metal Gear solid clone, and Assassin's Creed is a medieval GTA.
Used all forms of shitty DRM across the years. Everyone is complaining about UPlay, but I remember getting a free Splinter Cell disc with a video card and not installing it because of StarForce.
The result?
I don't even read news or reviews about Ubisoft games. How can I pirate them when I don't know what they have out?
And of course the Assasin's Creed lovers will pirate the game because the piratebay version actually works.
Note 1: I have 120ish purchased games on Steam.
Note 2: I own a PS3, I have a stack of about 10 unopened PS3 games waiting for me to have time to play them, plus a stack of 30+ games that i've at least ran once.
Note 3: I still wouldn't buy Ubisoft games for the PS3 for fear of what they might do to my console.
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I guess I missed the part where he made that claim.
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Exactly. And what did you learn from that experience?
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maybe you should shrug *insert more ayn rand themed jokes that are both offensive and not funny like her books*
Contrary to what you think, the post you replied to did not have any Ayn Rand reference. This guy [wikipedia.org] is not a reference to Ayn Rand any more than Zarathustra is a reference to Stanley Kubrick or Richard Strauss -- it's the other way around.
Re:Only for Ubisoft (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, a piracy rate of around 95% sounds about right for PC gaming going all the way back to the 5150, and the 8-bit home computers that came before it. PC gaming has survived for 30 years with piracy rates of 90% or more, it should survive for another 30.
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Unfortunately for your position, you are completely unable to put your money where your mouth is.
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But forgetting mvm, before that all those stupid hats an accessories (that cost more than the game half the time) lead to the growth of beggars and scammers trying to get items from people. I paid for the game and I want to enjoy a nice game online and n