Open Source Gaming Handheld Project Wants Your Money 203
YokimaSun writes to point out a Kickstarter project that may warm the cockles of your heart: "Fans of emulation and homebrew have not had much to cheer about over the years; the recent generation of consoles has pretty much killed off any hacking by constant firmware updates. The days of PSP homebrew have died a death and consoles like the Caanoo, GP2x and even the mighty Openpandora never really lived up to the massive expectation. There is a glimmer of hope from a team of homebrew developers who have developed a new console called the GCW-Zero, a new open source handheld system which uses the OpenDingux Linux OS. The specs are impressive, with a Ingenic JZ4770 1 GHz MIPS processor, Vivante GC860, capable of OpenGL ES 2.0, 3.5 inch LCD with 320x240 pixels; 4:3 aspect ratio, 512 MB DDR2 and 16GB of internal memory which can via external memory card be extended by another 32GB. N64 and PS1 emulation and everything below should be at full speed in time."
Not impressive (Score:5, Insightful)
The specs are impressive, with a Ingenic JZ4770 1 GHz MIPS processor, Vivante GC860, capable of OpenGL ES 2.0, 3.5 inch LCD with 320x240 pixels; 4:3 aspect ratio, 512 MB DDR2 and 16GB of internal memory which can via external memory card be extended by another 32GB. N64 and PS1 emulation and everything below should be at full speed in time."
No, that is not impressive. Super lo-res screen, slower than any phone that is available today. But it's open source, so I suppose that's good.
But what is the point? Learning? Because the thing won't sell, like the previous models didn't do. You can have the best hardware, but if you don't have games for the device it doesn't matter.
I, for one, would rather game on my phone which is faster and has a much higher resolution display, with a bluetooth connected game controller of my choice.
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Sure.
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Some game do fine with the on-screen controls.
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Well that or carry your phone and this device.
Either way you are carrying two objects of similar size.
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The Xpreia Play is basically a slightly-out-of-date Android phone with a SNES controller attached.
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There are a lot of them that meet that need. Including the ps3 controller.
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It breaks down like this: it's legal to buy it, it's legal to own it, and, if you're the proprietor of a gaming company, it's legal to sell it. It's legal to carry it, but that doesn't really matter 'cause -- get a load of this -- if you get stopped by the cops in Amsterdam, it's illegal for them to search you. I mean, that's a right the cops in Amsterdam don't have.
Customs (Score:2)
You order it from a foreign company who then posts it to you.
And have it confiscated at customs.
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I, for one, would rather game on my phone which is faster and has a much higher resolution display, with a bluetooth connected game controller of my choice.
Hmm! I didn't know this was possible. How many games support it? Being limited to only touch screen kind of boxes you.
4.2 breaks Bluetooth gamepads (Score:2)
I, for one, would rather game on my phone
My phone is a flip phone. An Android phone would involve a much higher recurring fee. For example, Virgin Mobile USA won't activate an Android phone on a $80 per year dumbphone plan; it requires a $420 per year smartphone plan. I imagine a lot of children and teens are in the same situation: parents are willing to pay for a low-end plan to call home in an urgency but not more than that.
with a bluetooth connected game controller of my choice.
Provided that Android system updates don't cause your Bluetooth controller driver to fail with "No route to host", as they
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Just because you carrier sucks does not make that true universally.
You can get a smartphone and pop in a T-mobile SIM for voice only. Pretty much any GSM carrier you would give you a sim without a device is going to do that.
I already addressed your gamepad issue in an earlier comment.
Buy a phone or buy this (Score:2)
You can get a smartphone
True, one can buy a new smartphone at MSRP and a new gamepad and forfeit accumulated service credit when switching to a new carrier, or one can stay on his existing phone and carrier and buy a dedicated gaming device with a built-in gamepad. I imagine that the latter is among the use cases for which this product is intended.
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MSRP is often lower than what carriers charge.
You can get a Nexus 4 for $350. I am not sure what this accumulated service credit is so I cannot say anything about it, could you explain it?
Most people do not want to carry multiple devices.
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I am not sure what this accumulated service credit is
Top-ups (money added to a customer's account) on Virgin Mobile USA carry over from month to month. As long as at least $20 was added in the past 90 days, the customer can make and receive voice calls and send and receive text messages. Otherwise, the customer forfeits the entire account balance to the carrier on the 150th day after the date of the last top-up. I'm not sure, but I think the balance is also forfeited when the number is ported to another carrier. And I imagine that other pay-as-you-go carriers
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I would then suggest timing it correctly to burn up unused credit.
Any GSM carrier should be fine with the Nexus 4, so at least add AT&T to that list.
I don't think you would need to overpay to not carry two devices. Many MVNOs operate on AT&T and Sprint and would allow you to only pay for voice.
Retro gaming (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm one of the people working on this console. The point of it is retro gaming: emulation, classic PC games and homebrew and indie games in retro style. Touch screens and physical controls are completely types of input: you cannot play a game designed for physical input well with a touch screen or vice versa.
We've got a light embedded Linux distro on it and with C/C++ applications writing directly into the framebuffer (set up via SDL, usually) you can get very decent performance from these specs. For example, my prototype has 256 MB of memory and 240 MB of that is available for applications. Similarly, the OS footprint on the internal storage is less than 100 MB.
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I'm one of the people working on this console.
What do you see as the device's unique selling point over pocket gaming tablets such as the JXD 5100 and 5110 [liliputing.com]? They have the advantage that any Android application is easily ported.
Re:Retro gaming (Score:5, Interesting)
Not running Android has its advantages too: porting existing C/C++ applications to Android is quite a hassle, while porting to the Zero is often a cross compile followed by customizing the key mapping. Also we have fewer layers between the application and the hardware, resulting in lower latency. Maybe it's technically possible to get low latency on Android, but in practice a lot of devices suffer from input or audio latency.
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java android apps, and run "real linux" GNU apps.
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You can't. Android has a re-implementation of libc, which is missing some things you'd expect. Like any of the normal IPC mechanisms. If you want to port GNU to Andoird, you have to bring your own libc with you.
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You can't. Android has a re-implementation of libc, which is missing some things you'd expect. Like any of the normal IPC mechanisms. If you want to port GNU to Andoird, you have to bring your own libc with you.
Luckily, that is very doable. A handful of .so files, and programs compiled against GNU's libc run just fine. But, a more substantial hurdle might be some of the tweaks to the Linux kernel that Android introduces. Shouldn't be a problem for mainstream applications, but I'm sure there are corner cases where the kernel support just isn't there.
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Ubuntu was demoing an Android port [ubuntu.com] at CES this year, which sounds as though it runs in something like a chroot jail. The idea seems to be to hook your phone up to a monitor to display Linux apps, but it seems at least conceivable that they could display on the phone's screen if you could get around the usability issues.
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Almost everything on the SNES runs at 256 × 224. N64 runs mostly at 256x224 and 320x240.
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Why is the screen so pathetic?
Even old games were better at 640x480.
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CGA was up to 600x240. Is that old enough for you are you only going to accept 80 column green screen text adventures?
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Re:Not impressive (Score:5, Informative)
17 USC 117(a)(1) (Score:2)
Thirdly, the games are already available; IT RUNS EMULATOR ROMS.
If something is advertised as running ROMs, what will the console makers say? I'm not a lawyer, but I see potential for a lawsuit on grounds of "inducing infringement" (MGM v. Grokster) unless the manufacturer makes a point of advertising it for use with the Retrode [retrode.org] or similar copier, which opens up a defense under 17 USC 117(a)(1):
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>_>
<_<
>_>
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OK that's cool, it'll be able to run those systems fine I think.
Now the problem is with emulators as usual is that it's not legal to download the ROMs for your system, even if you own the cartridge. (this might be system dependant)
There are devices that can extract the ROM from a cartridge though, but I'm guessing they aren't that cheap (niche market).
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It's super-low res because it's supposed to run legacy games. Your PS1 / N64 output at 320x240 typically, with capability of 640x480 "high resolution" at a push.
And that's why this device should have a 640x480 display. That's not even high-res any more. 320x240 is for cheap crap mirrors with a display for a backup camera, not a handheld gaming platform. The real problem comes when you're dealing with a low-res source near the panel's resolution. Either you can have black bars or you can use a very expensive scaling algorithm and still have it look pretty bad or you can use a cheap scaling algorithm and have it look like dogshit.
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Those low res TVs were about twice the resolution of this hand held device.
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And yet the TV's were interlaced, and most of the consoles ran at just half that resolution - even N64 and PS1.
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And since they painted alternate lines and the phosphors stayed lit it appeared higher resolution than it was.
Either way still terrible. Most emulators for N64 upscale for a good reason.
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I don't think it used the interlace lines - I think it displays the same frame twice.
Portable gaming handhelds are so '90's (Score:2)
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People who do gaming have widescreen TV's and monitors now. The days of teenagers gaming on tiny screens are over now.
Teenagers can't drive. So what do they use for gaming on road trips? Are you trying to imply that they use a laptop? Phones and pocket tablets work, but some genres really need physical buttons.
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What about the under-served market of bathroom gaming? This is why I have a 3DS.
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No, they're playing games on their phones with ever-larger (5"/6"+) screens. Hell, even a 3.5" screen is considered "tiny" (which is why Apple had to go 4" on the iPhone 5, and even people consider that too damn small).
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Handhelds are hard (Score:2)
The big challenge for the developers will be creating a device that's small, runs well, runs for a long time, and is cheap. The current handheld console companies - who set people's expectations of the technology - use economies of scale to push cost down, and often rely on hacker-unfriendly industrial design to cram components into the smallest possible space. They'll have to find a way to get around those limitations. And that's before you consider smartphones, which have set a ludicrously short life cycl
Software is the hard part (Score:2)
The problem with a home-brew or emulation-only game system is that the hardware is now easier than the software. We're now well into the age of mobile devices. The hardware here is basically a smartphone with a lower-resolution screen and slightly different processor. (Although the screen choice seems like a bad idea: 320x240 is just too low.)
The hard part is getting developers to write native games for it. Good luck with that in this day and age unless you're Sony or Microsoft and can spend millions on woo
Simple DirectMedia Layer (Score:2)
The hard part is getting developers to write native games for it.
Games for GP2X and the like are already written for SDL, Allegro, and the like. Porting them to use a particular platform's screen size, audio output frequency, and button layout is likely a couple days' work at most.
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As someone who doesn't want his retro gaming graphics stretched or blurred, I would prefer my 256x224 SNES games showing up matted on a 320x240 screen so there's a 1:1 pixel representation. 640x480 offers nothing for even Playstation, which maxes out around 320x240.
Oh come on guys! (Score:3)
Mini-USB is theoretically deprecated in favor of Micro-USB. [wikipedia.org] You could have saved someone carrying an extra wire around, and it's not like the ports or cables cost much different when it comes to production.
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But Micro-USB cabled still aren't anywhere near as reliable, we need to switch back.
Well (Score:2)
I posted a question on their kickstarter, asking what they would do to avoid being another OpenPandora fiasco (four years later, first-day pre-orderers are still without hardware and being asked to stump up again for the device to be delivered and refund requests ignored), what sort of experience they have in the area, what sort of business acumen and supplier management they have in the project, etc.
i.e. I trust you can BUILD the device, how are you going to buy the parts, pay someone to put it together, d
Re:Well (Score:4, Informative)
I'm "mth" and I'll answer as many of your questions as I can.
The devices are built in China by a factory who have done this sort of thing before. I don't know all the details, but while the yield of the first batch wasn't great, it also wasn't worse than what one would expect from a first production run. Justin has been a reseller of devices like the Dingoo A320 for several years, so he has practical experience in distribution.
Regarding the software, we build the root file system using buildroot [buildroot.org] with as few customizations as needed. Our SDL is using the Linux framebuffer for graphics and ALSA for audio, no acceleration is implemented but it's not necessary either: pushing pixels at 320x240 or synthesizing stereo audio at 44.1 or 48 kHz can easily be done by the CPU.
We do want to add acceleration for OpenGL ES. We're working to get the proprietary driver from Vivante up and running in our system (this wasn't trivial because we're using uClibc instead of glibc). We're also looking at the open source etna_viv [github.com] project, but that's in an early stage of development, so it will be a while before it is usable as a full driver replacement. Note that the GPU renders from memory to memory; the framebuffer is handled by the LCD controller and that part is already fully open source, so if you want a fully open kernel you can run SDL applications just fine today.
All sources can be found on github [github.com]. This includes the kernel, buildroot, the boot loader, the image generation tools and more.
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I didn't see the questions before, it was Justin who answered earlier.
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You can post a comment in the comments section, and point people at it, or add an FAQ.
Fact is, the person answering the Kickstarter queries isn't doing them favours with those sorts of responses (this answer is better - still not perfect, but better).
mth - I don't know if you know the history of the OpenPandora project, which I referenced in my question, but your answer just rings too many bells for me. Chinese production (with people uncertain or not giving details on how that's going on the kickstarter),
Low Res (Score:2)
1999 called and wants their resolution back. not acceptable in 2013 on a 3.5 inch handheld. especially not with a ghz class CPU, MIPS no less.(equiv or around 2ghz x86?)
wvga
800Ã--480 or better, is the bare min.
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Funny, I thought this console was supposed to emulate consoles from 1980 up to 1999, I thought the 320x240 display was a perfect match. I do wonder if it's powerful enough to run Neo Geo games at full speed, however.
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The device is geared toward emulation. By definition, that requires a much stronger CPU even if the graphics and sound load are fairly low.
We don't need another portable console. (Score:2)
The only reason this might be interesting is if its very cheap, I don't see a price listed anywhere. Why do people insist on re-inventing the wheel when it comes to portable consoles. I keep hearing of some ARM/MIPS-Linux hand held that turns out to be vaporware or bombs. Who is going to carry a 1ghz, 512MB 320x240 Linux console when their phone already has a quad-core ARM, 1-2GB RAM, gigabytes of storage and a high rez screen? Just because its open source doesn't mean much at all unless it can compete with
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I may not jump on this, but I sure do want something like it.
I have a 3DS now. I don't take it everywhere with me. I mostly play it at home. But if I could get a device that could do Atari-PS1, I already own a fairly large game library in that range. And the resolution of the screen is a close to perfect match. I'm the type that would rather play SNES games matted to 256x224 on the 320x240 screen just to have 1:1 pixel representation. All the way through N64 and PS1 there's not much gain in having any
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Why do people insist on re-inventing the wheel when it comes to portable consoles.
Name one wheel this reinvents. If one exists, I'll buy it today.
Who is going to carry a 1ghz, 512MB 320x240 Linux console when their phone already has a quad-core ARM, 1-2GB RAM, gigabytes of storage and a high rez screen?
I don't have a phone and don't want one. But I sure as hell want a portable Linux PC with solid gaming controls on which I can run any emulator I want.
Just because its open source doesn't mean much at all u
Why all the fuss? (Score:2)
Anyone want to start a Kickstarter project? (Score:2)
I know of a way to make a handheld console with much wider software compatibility and access to a larger community.
1. Build a handheld case for the Raspberry Pi.
2. Profit.
So it'll be a little bigger than this -- so what? The wider userbase means that stuff will actually be written that works with it.
320x240 is not enough for playstation (Score:2)
Gamepad compatibility (Score:2)
With Android, you have to make sure the device where you run emulators supports physical buttons. Android 4.2 broke Bluetooth gamepads on my Nexus 7, and very few Android devices have an internal gamepad: pretty much the Xperia Play phone, the JXD S5100 [liliputing.com] and S5110 pocket tablets, and the forthcoming Archos GamePad tablet. On-screen gamepads have their own problems [pineight.com], as any player of fast action games in DroidEmuLite will tell you. This sort of limits the game genres that are viable on Android.
Verdict: Figu
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They changed the bluetooth stack in 4.2. Apps will have to be updated. The SIXAXIS one should work fine for you. Likely all controllers will be working again shortly.
Either way a 320x240 screen is pathetic.
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They changed the bluetooth stack in 4.2. Apps will have to be updated. The SIXAXIS one should work fine for you.
Which is inconvenient for people who have to buy a different brand of controller (I don't own any PS3 controllers) and buy a different driver app every time Google changes the Bluetooth stack.
Likely all controllers will be working again shortly.
By which time I have no guarantee that 4.3 or 5.0 won't break things again.
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The driver apps will likely be updated.
Hopefully 5 will bring controller support to the OS natively. The old android bluetooth stack had to be changed it had real shortcomings. If that broke some stuff temporarily that seems well worth it.
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Cry more Mr. Early Adopter. I'm curious what you needed so badly in 4.2 that you upgraded to break your other devices?
Upgrade nag (Score:2)
I'm curious what you needed so badly in 4.2 that you upgraded to break your other devices?
For the "A new system update is available" notification to go away.
I am aware that I am an edge case (Score:2)
You're apparently experienced
I am aware that I am an edge case, and edge cases are less profitable for mass producers than the mass market. The majority of end users are not similarly experienced enough to know when they can safely run an unpatched system, and they would be seriously inconvenienced if their paid games would stop working after a security update. When I mention drawbacks of something, should I phrase them as affecting "me" or should I phrase them as affecting "people"?
You not only have a driver so you can run a Bluetooth controller on your tablet, but, as implied by your other posts, you BOUGHT an app to add that support.
The "Wiimote Controller" app is free, unlike the "Six
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JXD has many models (the S7300 looks promising), and the Archos GamePad is already out in Europe.
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It will run Atari 2600 emulation at full speed.
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It's the best specced product in its class. Yes, it might be less powerful than an android tablet from 2 years ago. But that android tablet doesn't have gaming controls. This is for people who liked the Dingoo A320, but want something better. This is for people who wanted a Pandora, but couldn't afford one. This is for people who would rather replay Master of Magic on the go than whatever Nintendo or Sony are hyping today.
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There are tablets now with gaming controls.
A 320x240 screen is pathetic.
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Actually a small screen is an advantage in many situations. It's lighter to hold, more portable, etc.
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I never said anything about the size of the screen, only the resolution.
The DPI is only 114 on that screen. Which is just pathetic in 2013.
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Yes it would, and it might add all of $10 to the cost.
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Re:wtf (Score:5, Insightful)
Its a MIPS instead of ARM so itll emulate PSP at decent speed.
Don't forget that the PSP has two MIPS CPUs, each with its own floating point processor.
And a 480x272 resolution, which it will be kind of hard to emulate on a 320x240 display.
The list of failed handheld gaming consoles is long. The list of successful open source one is empty. There's no way you're going to build a momentum, unless you are way ahead of the market leaders. And without a momentum, it'll die before it takes off.
Donate money to this, and you'll either get nothing, or another box that goes in the closet/basement/attic. Perhaps you'll get your money back after 20 years if you keep it in mint condition.
Re:wtf (Score:5, Insightful)
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I really wish that the open-source hardware movement would target a broader subsection of homebrew gaming than "emulators". Someone needs to buy games to keep Jeff Minter in wooly coats and sheep dip.
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I would love to buy Jeff Minter games, but he doesn't publish them on any acceptable platform. Paying the Apple tax for a device I don't fully control is a complete deal breaker. If Yak wants my money, he can publish on a decent platform. Say, the C64.
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Jeff Minter is one of the few people I buy the games of whether I intend to play them or not. He can do more in kilobytes than most of today's programmers can do in megabytes, and is a rather nice guy too.
240p vs. 480i (Score:2)
Remember, everything from ps1 and N64 (and below) were made to run on a tv.
True, most PlayStation and Nintendo 64 games run at 240p (LDTV). But there are some that run at 480i (SDTV), such as Tobal No. 1 and Ehrgeiz. There are even a couple Genesis games that run at 480i, namely the multiplayer of Sonic 2. The Super NES was capable of 480i, but I don't know if any games used it.
An HD-screen wouldn't make a difference here
But a full SD screen will.
If you're into (real) retro-games and MAME
What MAME calls a "standard resolution" monitor is essentially an SDTV with component in. Most games run at 240p, but several run at 480i. I seem to remember the menus of Dance Dan
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Yeah, it only took five freaking years to get all classic preorders filled. :)
The OpenPandora is unfortunately too little too late - it was interesting when it came out, but now? Now I can use my Android for everything I wanted to use my Pandora for...
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Get classic OpenPandora preorders fulfilled? Um, no, not at all. My guess is they've fulfilled considerably less than 1/2.
The devs state they don't have funds to fulfill orders, and that they're using new revenue to help fulfill the massive backlog they presently cannot afford.
I was in fairly early in the queue, early December `08. I've listened to hopeful progress report after hopeful progress report, but I'm skeptical I'll ever see a thing from the $330 I mail ordered them. If OpenPandora disclosed any in
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Short version: Dingux is Dingoo Linux and OpenDingux is a reimplementation of Dingux.
The project originates from the scene formed around the Dingoo A320 [wikipedia.org]. Ignacio García Pérez (aka booboo) ported Linux to this device and called that Dingux. Dingux worked great, but it was a one-man project and Ignacio didn't have time to keep supporting it. The code was based on the Linux kernel released by Ingenic (the manufacturer of the JZ4740 SoC), who often invent their own kernel interfaces instead of stickin
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Do you not know what the OpenPandora was? Same thing, but stemming from the GP2X, really, and even the Dingoo in part.
The units exists but in terms of actually delivering, I doubt they qualify as having done that well. First day pre-orderers from four years ago still have no units (well, they can get one, if they pay hundreds of dollars again to someone else now). The software available is all pretty much OS stuff recompiled. In four years, they never really got to the sort of stability and popularity o
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And, if anything, ED, you're the only person I would have trusted on OpenPandora anyway. But the fact remains that the project as a whole has suffered serious setbacks in its customer relations, not all due to volcanoes and rogue companies.
Personally, I'd have distanced myself from the whole thing years ago if I were you. I still don't quite get why you do anything at all in that way - there can't be much profit in it for you any more.
But, early customers, investors, community people - quite a lot of peo
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I think its a great project. The kickstarter is ... a smidge steep IMO. for $135 you ought to get a console for sure - not "a shot" at a console. Not sure if this is just poor wording or what.
It's how kickstarter works. You don't get anything if they don't meet their goal. You don't give anything either.
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I'd love to be helping to polish and work on Pandora, AnonymousCoward, but after placing an order two months in, early December 08, I have no hardware and little hope.
OpenPandora has not disclosed how many units have made it out into the field.
OpenPandora has not told us anything about the current rate of fulfillment for backlogged units.
OpenPandora claims to be out of funds.
OpenPandora claim to be using new sales to fund the backlog.
But we've been strung along for four years already, and I'd be shocked if
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Sort of like this one? [thinkgeek.com]
Granted it's a little later to the game than I would have liked. Could have saved me a lot of headache forcing PS3 controls to work with Linux, but better late than never.