QuakeCon 2013: Carmack On Next-Gen Console Hardware 136
jones_supa writes "QuakeCon 2013 is running full tilt. John Carmack kicked off his speech by addressing the 'elephant in the room,' discussing the arrival of a new console generation to a crowd of attendees at the largely PC-focused event. He's optimistic about the coming console cycle, commenting that it's 'obviously going to be a good thing for gamers, developers, and an excellent thing for AMD.' John said he hasn't run quite enough tests on the hardware for the two consoles, but said they're both 'very close, and very good.' In his traditional long talk (watch on YouTube), Carmack also commented on Microsoft's always-on Kinect, its recently reversed DRM policies for the upcoming Xbox One, the death of optical media, and the state of handheld gaming."
Little difference anymore between PC/console (Score:4, Interesting)
Both the PS4 and Xbox One will have s86 architecture, and are essentially just heavily customized PC's (to the point where porting between PC and these consoles will be trivial). So is the distinction between console and PC even meaninful anymore? Aside from the control scheme and openess of software installation, there really isn't much difference.
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oops...x86
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FYI there's a whole lot of 32bit ARM CPUs around, placed in pretty much everything.
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (Score:4, Insightful)
No, but a common architecture will make it a helluva lot easier on developers, which should result in more and better games (which DO matter).
Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (Score:4, Insightful)
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My current gaming rig is already an order of magnitude more powerful than either the XBone or PS4.
No, it isn't. Do you have an 8-core CPU with the fast specialized busses and high bandwidth RAM the PS4 does? No, because you simply can't buy a PC with those things.
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A common architecture means that consoles will continue to hold back the progress of cross platform PC games
Guess that means Skyrim and Team Fortress 2 won't be able to be modded on the PC :(
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I don't think you know how the game industry works. A common arch will not make it easier for developers to make better games. It will only make it easier to port more of the same lame franchise product to all the consoles.
Re:Little difference anymore between PC/console (Score:4, Interesting)
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Except the PS3, of course, which sold a lot for clusters and researchers due to their unique processor.
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I've been using my Xbox 360 controller on my PC a lot lately, especially with Steam games.
The difference to the console experience is minimal.
I hope the Xbox One controller will be as supported by PC developers as much as the Xbox 360 one is now.
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It's essentially been like this ever since the original x-box. The distinction is meaningful because the games are still designed with interface control schemes that target one category or the other. Until consoles are shipped with a mouse/keyboard (never), it will remain as a meaningful distinction.
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It's essentially been like this ever since the original x-box.
not really, the xbox 1 is x86 but the 360, ps3 and wii are ppc based, and the cell in the ps3 is also quite different because of the SPUs
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Yup, the lazy software developers that get 0 extra time from their manager to work on the PC port because "consoles makes money, so do not spend time on the PC port".
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more directly they will use something like the unity or unreal engines so it can be one and done {not really but a heck of a lot easier than not}
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That's going to make writing emulators much easier. Might even be able to do it using hardware-aided virtualisation, nice and fast, and half the code you'd need is already open-source for PC virtualisation.
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You'd think so, but, as the original Xbox has shown [ngemu.com], that's not really the case.
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But emulating the instruction set shouldn't even be necessary at all. Xbox 'emulation' should really be 'virtualization'. The article you link talks about 20 different variations on the MOV instruction... which is entirely unimportant.
That leaves the audio/video and operating system stuff, which admittedly is still potentially a lot of work but the CPU itself doesn't need to be emulated at all, which saves them a ton of work relative to say what we're going to be looking at for a PS3 emulator or the N64 one
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Earlier numbers by Business Week may have reported that Microsoft is losing $126 on every Xbox 360 sold
and
Pricing the PlayStation 3 below its production cost caused Sony to lose $2.16 billion in 2007 and $1.16 billion in 2008, the company revealed today.
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A really good gaming PC that will blow away both consoles can be had for about $1000 and can be used for much more than gaming.
Diminishing returns.
Yes, you can buy a PC that has better tech specs than the current consoles but you'll play hell buying one with the bandwidth/specialized busses/RAM of the next. And what will the extra money do? Not all that much. Sure the games might be slightly prettier and you get access to some games that haven't had a console version....yet. But that's about it. It's better in some ways but not better enough for a lot of people to justify spending 600 or more dollars on the "better". That's
Call me when... (Score:2)
Call me when consoles can do:
* At least 60 FPS on 4k TVs.
* Allow upgrading of the graphics, and storage.
* Allow modding of the games.
* And most of all, allow keyboard and mouse.
PCs can.
The price, however high, is totally dependent on the buyer.
But the point is that 'the buyer' has choices and features on the PC.
Consoles == No choice (locked in).
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Allow upgrading of the graphics, and storage.
If they allowed that, consoles would end up a fractured mess just like PC's. It would be giving up one of the biggest strengths the consoles have (their consistency). One of the best things I love about my consoles is never having to check the "system requirements" section to see if my system can handle the game (and how well), or having to adjust sliders to try and get decent fps, or having to figure out where my current graphics card falls on the "minimum requirement vs. optimal requirement" scale, or hav
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. Can you do the same with a PC game and know whether it runs with your nvidia card model A, on CPU model B with clock speed C, and D GB of memory?
Yes. The game is for sale in Steam or GoG, therefore it runs on my PC (or has huge warnings all over the store page that it doesn't run on some PCs, but that's quite rare).
Oh, wait, the console peons still buy games in boxes? How quaint.
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Yes! Older games and second-hand games are almost always cheaper than the equivalent download-on-PC price.
Well, they are in Australia thanks to the 30-50% "because we can" markup.
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That actually makes some sense. Is GoG the same way? Steam sales are still priced by the original studio, but GoG competes directly with used box sales.
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Call me when consoles can do:
* At least 60 FPS on 4k TVs.
PCs can.
Actually, they can't. With a monster like GTX Titan you would only get maybe 30-40fps maximum when gaming at 4K resolution.
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You could turn off FSAA16 on a 4K screen. :)
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* Allow upgrading of.....storage.
Done
https://support.us.playstation.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/362/~/upgrade-the-hard-disk-drive-(hdd) [playstation.com]
And most of all, allow keyboard and mouse.
They do! There's no "allow" about it. It's up to the developer/publisher to decide to whether to use it or not. It's common for text entry, on the PS3 any game that uses the PS3's standard text entry widget automatically supports keyboard. If you want to use them for controls...well that's different, besides, analog movement is better than WASD.
Some of the Eve gamers who are trying out Dust514 are find
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Aside from the control scheme and openess of software installation, there really isn't much difference.
Some of the biggest games on PC (Counter Strike: Global Offensive, DotA 2, League of Legends) are derivatives of games which started as mods for PC games. Games like Skyrim and Torchlight II have been greatly expanded by the modding communities. Most of the value of games like the new Shadowrun Returns will be provided by modders. Until consoles support modding communities, there will always be a significant difference between PC and consoles.
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Some of the biggest games on PC (Counter Strike: Global Offensive, DotA 2, League of Legends) are derivatives of games which started as mods for PC games.
Yes, because PC gamers are cheap asses who don't want to pay more than 5 bucks for a game and then want to play it forever with mods because they blew all their cash on their "rig" and don't have much money left for games.
Hey, maybe developers would pay more attention to the PC version of cross-platform games if PC Gamers actually bought games other than during Steam sales or from GoG. We see that here on slashdot all the time: "I only buy games from Steam Sales"
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"PC gamers".
You keep using that term.
I don't think it means what you think it means.
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We see that here on slashdot all the time: "I only buy games from Steam Sales"
And slashdot is somehow representative of normal video game consumers? What's your point?
Obviously someone is purchasing those games at full price or nobody would be making PC games anymore.
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- It is a hell of a lot easier to manage updates to the OS, firmware, drivers, and games on a console hooked up to a large-screen tv with a proper 10-foot interface than a PC
- There is a convenience to having a separate box that's DRM'ed instead of having games trying to own my PC
- That DRM allows for the purchase and sale of used games that isn't available on the PC, not to mention borrowing games without h
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- It is a hell of a lot easier to manage updates to the OS, firmware, drivers, and games on a console hooked up to a large-screen tv with a proper 10-foot interface than a PC
I don't think it is really that much easier. It is somewhat easier, yes. It is bolded hell easier? Not IMO.
The console provides a unified interface for social gaming. I can see what games other friends are playing and join in their session or send them a message to try to convince them to play a different game
You can do this (with any game, steam or not) in steam
I can be sure that games on a console perform reasonably well without having to upgrade any hardware.
PC gamers are also sure. One of the unexpected side effects of consoles taking over. I built my gaming rig in 2009. I upgraded the video card about 6 months ago because I got a 2560x1440 monitor and wanted to run everything in that res. I did not need to upgrade the video card otherwise. I buy any game I like and do not need to even consider whether
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There is little difference between the two because the Xbox has effectively killed PC gaming as a seperate category for the publisher's intents and purposes. This leads to a more console oriented market whereas before it was a dual console and PC market, both being pretty different and thus allowing different games to thrive within each.
PC are more powerful though but that difference doesn't really matter anymore because the increase visually it buys isn't all that grand for anything under a $1200 machine.
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I
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I think the 90% piracy rate on PCs had something to do with it (piracy on Xbox360 was around 10% for comparison).
I know plenty of 360 owner, and only a couple have one or two legit games.
Piracy might be that low in the US, but it's a different thing outside the US. The 360 sold a lot more than the PS3 at some point because of the cost of games and the fact that the former could be pirated.
Then publishers put on DRM and you had the whole SecuROM fiasco that burned out optical drives.
All the Xbox did was show that between the Xbox and PS2, consoles were getting "good enough". The PS3 and Xbox360 basically said that things were pretty much there and consoles were no longer the huge compromises they once were when compared to PCs.
Publishers switched over because you could develop for PCs and load it up with DRM crap, or develop for consoles (which were "good enough") suffer less piracy and get more people paying for it. And people were buying consoles as well because it was more "social" and fun to play on the big screen TV than the little monitor.
What's happened since then is the universal DRM for PC now - Steam. And the proliferation of Intel graphics cards (around the time of the Xbox, people still used external video chips) which basically meant 90% of PCs sold were doing fairly poorly in the graphics department (and NVidia and AMD/ATi saw their marketshare dwindle as people rushed for cheaper Intel graphics).
But, the PC adapted - no longer were AAA titles going to PCs, which meant indie games rose in prominence - a good indie game (most are crap, still) now has a huge hungry base to which people would buy them and play with. And since these were low-budget productions, DRM wasn't really an issue, since piracy tended to help. And these games worked even on piss-poor Intel graphics, which meant huge market. Plus the rise of mobile gaming helped.
Consoles this round took notice and if you're paying attention, you'll see both Sony and Microsoft are trying hard to attract indies to their consoles.
The (few) most popuar indie games have pretty good graphics, and are pretty good AND successful. AAA games don't exist any more (on any platform), all those franchises have been brought by EA or alike and burnt to the ground (Simcity
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The biggest difference between PC and consoles has always been that consoles have a fixed hardware configuration. That's still the case regardless of what CPU architecture they use.
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The difference is value. PC's still cost a lot more (when you get comparatively the same specs) then a game console. I'd rather a $500 investment every 5 - 8 years then $2000 every couple of years to play the current games.
Also, PC's have always suffered from configuritis. When you make a PC game, you have to make the code work on a broad spectrum of hardware configurations, including the shitty budget PC's you get at Best Buy. Even if you just port a PC game to a console, you benefit from being able to
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You can build a decent PC for under $1000. You can keep it butter-smooth on new games for $300 every couple years for a GPU upgrade, and an additional amount every 5 years or so for a CPU/mobo upgrade.
On a separate note, I still can't get over your quote on your TV setup, though. I couldn't imagine $10k being remotely worth it, to
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Finally, PC's are just not cool anymore.
True enough - I don't need a space heater when my gaming rig fires up. Or did you did mean something about fashion? Are bellbottoms back in style yet? I've been hearing disco-like music again - can polyester leisure suits be far behind? Yes, lets be sure to stay in fashion.
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PC's are just not cool anymore
An Xbox is just a locked down PC that can't be expanded. What's cool about that?
And for that matter what make you think that any form of couch potatoism is cool these days?
Only a console fanboy would state this (Score:2)
Because to a PC gamer something is VERY obviously different. The specs all the console fanboys are drooling over is for hardware YET to be released. Right now, gaming PC's already surpass those specs. PC specs will continue to evolve, the console specs will be fixed for another half a decade at least if not longer.
Remember, during the hype up of EVERY console launch, people have drooled at trailers and demo's (running often on PC's) and then the games finally launch and it turns out that when you are power
So... (Score:3, Insightful)
Somehow I was hoping for a bit more...
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Waving a controller in one hand makes you fit?
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Why walk for 20-30 minutes when you can be moving much more than walking involves, and not get bored for hours while playing a game?
Your crippling addiction to video games, to the point of being bored by absolutely any sort of physical activity, is not our problem.
It is your problem when his health care expenditures are factored into your health insurance premiums. Is it a bit sad? Sure. But if it improves his exercise habits at all, then good for him.
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If you want more you should watch the video.
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Comments on the poll (Score:4, Informative)
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Ditto. :( /. sucks! :(
well then (Score:1, Troll)
Well then he's an idiot who lives in his own little fake reality because that sure as hell isn't what's happening.
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I'm not sure, Sony is being more open than ever, a complete u-turn from it's past where it's actually banning online passes and such DRM from it's system and forcing Microsoft to follow suit.
We'll see greater plurality of platforms but increased compatibility with the new console hardware being largely compatible with PC hardware which means we should see far less of the low quality ports of the last generation - porting between the XBox One, PS4, Wii U, and PC will be way easier than between the 360, PS3,
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Sure, sony made a u-turn and is being friendly. But since it's a closed hardware with a close ecosystem, there's no garantee that they won't get back on their usual [evil] track once they've sold enough PS4.
For me to buy a PS4 from them, they need to convince me they'll NEVER go bad. And that I'll get better-than-PC games, of course.
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Well you may be right, I don't intend to purchase either right at release so hopefully I'll have time to find out how honest they are before I do decide to make my purchase.
In fact, it sounds like here in the UK we're getting both consoles later than people in North America anyway so even if I was going to purchase at UK release that'd give at least a few weeks to see if there's any suggestion of backtracking.
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now, Sony haven't done much to earn people's trust but
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The "No online passes" thing is a new policy, only applies to the PS4, not to the already existing publisher contracts with the PS3.
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Industry awards mean fuck all when the USERS hate your game.
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Microsoft did not reverse their DRM decision. (Score:1)
They just directed the decision back to the publishers - it's up to them now if they will require games use an always-on connection, or lock each purchase to a specific console or steam account to prevent resale. Microsoft provides support for such restrictions, but doesn't require they be used.
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That's the exact same position as Sony. Yet another thing both consoles share in common, I suppose.
Would have been nice for at least one of them to take a stand and say "No, we're not allowing publishers to put always-on requirements on any single-player game on our console, PERIOD." But neither wants to risk pissing off the developers.
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When a market provides options then those options will be used for competitive advantage ... always online is a competitive disadvantage, prepare to see it not be a problem. Ubisoft recanted on the PC for good reason ...
Only Blizzard is the exception to prove the rule, they have the Apple like halo power to convince the sheep to ignore the cattleprods ... but they saved me from making a mistake and buying Diablo 3, so all's well that ends well.
The problem is.. (Score:2)
That its nice to see this. But Carmack isn't what he was. Nor is quakecon really. Recent ID stuff has'nt shone and the input isn't as valuable as it once was. I kinda have the feeling that ID and Carmack have settled. New upstarts don't have that hunger sated and this is the issue really I have with Carmack - nice guy that he is..
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I disagree they have settled. Rage may not have been that well received, but ID have an expertise and interest in certain aspects of gameplay and they are pushing it with their new work. IMO anyone working to go deeper in the area they are best at isn't settling.
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Tong (Score:1)
Can I plug in a keyboard and a mouse?
Playing these kinds of games with a console controller is like assembling a ship in a bottle with long, clumsy tongs. Without the feeling of pride, just irritation.
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Counter STrike GO on the PS3 DOES support mouse and keyboard....but as I learned years ago, hybrid is better. You want the analog stick for comfortable movement, and the mouse for aiming.
It also depends on the shooter. I don't think games that are obviously trying to aspire to realism, at least in their names, should aspire to "bang, easy pointing quake style headshot".
Getting a headshot should be HARD, not something that happens every 5 seconds. Most shots, unless made through a sniper scope on a sniper
Handheld Gaming Market (Score:2)
I disagree with Carmack's assessment that the handheld gaming market is being consumed by mobile devices. The games available for tablets and phones are VERY inferior compared to handheld gaming devices. There have only been a few worthwhile games for the iPad that I've found such as Tales from Monkey Island, Kingdom Rush and Machinarium are all great games but there are so few good titles to choose from. There are tons of great titles to choose from on 3DS and PS Vita though.
The mobile market is still p
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Baldur's Gate, Xcom, this is the direction things are moving.
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I disagree with Carmack's assessment that the handheld gaming market is being consumed by mobile devices. The games available for tablets and phones are VERY inferior compared to handheld gaming devices.
Absolutely they're inferior, but the reason why the segment exists (and is rapidly growing) is because "everybody" has one. Convenience: no need to buy another device; and affordability: people are willing to wager a few dollars on entertainment.
There have only been a few worthwhile games for the iPad that I've found such as Tales from Monkey Island, Kingdom Rush and Machinarium are all great games but there are so few good titles to choose from.
While I'm not an avid mobile gamer I do keep an eye out. Square is releasing titles, too.
The mobile market is still primarily about casual games like Words with Friends.
Bingo!
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I must say, Google has a got a big fail going in the no actual fullscreen gaming department.
Two consoles? (Score:2)
So what, the Wii U doesn't exists?
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relevant? (Score:2, Insightful)
John Carmack was a brilliant hardware/software dude in the 1990s and 2000s.
I'm having trouble being certain of his relevance today.
His company produced one of the greatest, genre-introducing games ever ...but what has he done lately?
Cdr Keen - absolutely brilliant
Wolfenstein 3d - 1992 - breakthrough game
Doom 1993? - novel, a big evolutionary step forward.
Quake 1996 - another huge advance in rendering, net coding
Doom 2/Quake 2 were not substantial steps forward. D2 was meh; Q2 I believe did have a rather re
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I'm having trouble being certain of his relevance today.
I'm having trouble seeing the relevance of your criticism since it has *nothing* at all to do with Carmack.
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"Doom3 - essentially D(1), but on 10 year newer hardware. Gameplay was indistinquishable from D1."
I don't know what game you played but it was nothing like D1. Go back to playing your Halo.
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Carmack has always been the engine guy, not the game designer. Engine stuff in Doom3, Rage is still very, very great. I doubt Id Tech 5/6 will let us down either.
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More triangles in the scene (and curves, and textures, and lens flare, and 15 different flavors of "pitch black") is more a direct credit to Nvidia/AMD than to Mr Carmack, and I don't see that anything since Quake 2 (arguably, Quake 1) is really a monumental advance forward.
Quake 2, really? You're leaving out Quakeworld! The graphics argument isn't unique to id and isn't new. It's been going on since gaming began. Here is a vintage example for Zelda [youtube.com] hailing from the 80s, whoa, check out those graphics! Minecraft is an example where gameplay outshines graphics, and there is a demand for innovative games - not just shine. There are more tools available
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I think a better way of looking at it is how many other people licensed the engines Carmack has created. As in, very few, because the engines weren't very useful. Meanwhile, look at where Unreal Engine and Unity3D have gone.
To say nothing about design, the reality was that the D3 engine did some clever new stuff, but it ran horribly slow and looked just plain ugly. It's very obvious that it wasn't a very efficient engine, and thus wasn't well-suited for games. Rage was the same. Ambitious and interesti
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Quake 3 is quite unique, and still popular.
Quake Live is, technologically, quite innovative too (a browser plugin that internally uses XMPP for online FPS?). I'm not sure why the idea never took off.
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Doom2 - Meh?
Doom 2 wasn't really a new game... it was Doom with a new IWAD.
cheap jordan shoes,Air max shoes,handbags sale (Score:1)
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