Old Doesn't Have To Mean Ugly: Squeezing Better Graphics From Classic Consoles 167
MojoKid writes If you're a classic gamer, you've probably had the unhappy experience of firing up a beloved older title you haven't played in a decade or two, squinting at the screen, and thinking: "Wow. I didn't realize it looked this bad." The reasons why games can wind up looking dramatically worse than you remember isn't just the influence of rose-colored glasses — everything from subtle differences in third-party hardware to poor ports to bad integrated TV upscalers can ruin the experience. One solution is an expensive upscaling unit called the Framemeister but while its cost may make you blanch, this sucker delivers. Unfortunately, taking full advantage of a Framemeister also may mean modding your console for RGB output. That's the second part of the upscaler equation. Most every old-school console could technically use RGB, which has one cable for the Red, Green, and Blue signals, but many of them weren't wired for it externally unless you used a rare SCART cable (SCART was more common in other parts of the world). Modding kits or consoles cost money, but if you're willing to pay it, you can experience classic games with much better fidelity.
Just buy a CRT (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, just buy a good CRT. Stop fooling around with all this line doubler crap
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Re:Just buy a CRT (Score:4, Interesting)
I personally prefer the NTSC filters [imgur.com] over those hqx filters because it breaks the "blockyness" without creating weird "vectorlike" artifacts, also it looks more authentic.
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The blocky pixels were put there by an artist on purpose.
Oh fuck off. The developers were dealing with 240 line hard limits, that's why the sprites have fewer pixels.
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Seriously, just buy a good CRT. Stop fooling around with all this line doubler crap
I still have 3 Commodore era monitors I use for my older console gaming. In fact, I like to have my wii hooked up to it because I get the best looking emulators running that way. (going to point out while I have some consoles, I don't have them all, so emulate I must)
On top of this, at least in my city, you can get a big ass free CRT TV for free, all you have to do is pick it up. Check Craigslist free section.
Trying to use old consoles on modern TV's is silly, as they don't scale well at all. Even the
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My hobby... [xkcd.com]
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Slight difference: a big ass-free CRT is desirable, while a big ass-CRT would be undesirable.
Eroge (Score:2)
a big ass-free CRT is desirable, while a big ass-CRT would be undesirable
That depends on whether or not you're playing an H game. For an H game, you want ass on your CRT.
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i'm literally trying to get rid of a big CRT right now (in boston)
its in my driveway
my neighbor and i moved it from my basement yesterday and we both barely made it. we are both strong, in shape guys but damn this thing is massive
its replaced with a projector that, in comparison, is so small
i got a ton of basement space free by getting rid of this beast
the sad part is that this is a nice tv, end of the crt era, flat screen, great pic, just too damn large.
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Even the Wii, which does 640x480p looks crappy on a 1080p TV.
Maybe you have a crappy TV. My Wii looks great on my 8 year old Sony SXRD 1080P TV, even up close. However, it has a much better upscaler than most TVs, I'd guess.
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I'm getting old, but can't help smiling when I read things such as "I like to have my wii hooked up to it (...)".
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Where can we buy a good quality CRT?
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But in new conditions?
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I have found that the county recycling center is a great mostly one stop shop for freecycling (another stupid term I ha
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rgb is still nice to have, even with a crt.
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Errr... what? You may have noticed that nothing lasts forever.
No device necessary (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No device necessary (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not going to buy an "expensive" upscaler, but I'd rather use the real consoles. I actually run into emulation errors with games I want to play on a semi-regular basis. I don't think that it's unreasonable to think about buying a scaler, even if it's unreasonable to buy this one.
It would be nice if someone would kick out a television with a fancy scaler built in. AQUOS and Bravia televisions (among others... I have an older example of the former, just barely pre-LED-backlight) have scalers which provide pretty good results for video sources at typical resolutions while also adding minimal latency, which is their primary appeal as compared to other lines — especially since the competition caught up in the black level department. But someone like Vizio (which is commonly favored by gamers due to sharp, clean scaling, if a bit jaggy at times) might consider offering some models with a seriously upgraded scaler and offering them to gamers as a means of improving their old-school gaming experience. Even people who don't own classic consoles, or who keep them in a box in their closet, might consider spending some extra money on such a feature even if they wind up never actually using it.
Not me, but some people :) Never know what the future holds for my TV, though.
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My kids 6 and all the kids at school were talking about the new Mario Kart game. He wanted it sooo bad but I wasn't about to get him started on consoles so I downloaded SNES and the orgional Mario Kart game... now he's bragging to all the kids he's got the "FIRST" one, and they have the lame version. lol
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Right? The 'oldies' really are the 'goodies' in gaming, as it turns out.
Well... let's not go overboard here. Even the most nostalgic X'er will admit that the 2600's graphics looked like total ass, even in 1980, and 98% of Atari 2600 games have almost zero enduring fun value. Seriously, play 'em for 5 minutes for the first time in 20 years, and the last minute before you hit reset will seem to LAST for 20 years.
Well, besides Circus Atari & Warlords (the original 4-player "party game"). It's kind of ironic that two of the 2600's least graphically-sophisticated games ended up
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It's really a shame Colecovision's short-sighted licensing deals and messy bankruptcy left their games covered in the legal equivalent of toxic sludge that nobody will ever be able to scrub away cheaply enough to make a $24.95 embedded Colecovision-in-a-(joy)stick with the dozen or so most popular games ever viable.
I don't think its the legal issues... it's the controllers. Colecovision controllers were awful.
http://atariage.com/forums/upl... [atariage.com]
The only ones worse were the intellivision controllers.
http://www.gratuitousscience.c... [gratuitousscience.com]
Those actually made my thumbs bleed every time I used them. The lip next to that dial would literally peel your thumb nail away from your finger.
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I actually run into emulation errors with games I want to play on a semi-regular basis.
Which emulators are you using? For NES/SNES/GBC/GBA, I've been using higan [byuu.org], and I've yet to find a single emulation error. Checking the forums, the kind of emulation bugs still getting reported are literally "on the Super Game Boy player for the SNES, an obscure series of cross-system memory writes with multiple joypads enabled ends up writing the wrong value to a register, which breaks this contrived test case". So it seems to be exceptionally solid. For more recent systems, yeah, I haven't found any trul
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What kind of lunatic plays his Game Boy games on an emulated adapter for a different console entirely instead of just using a Game Boy emulator?!
I don't know about that; I think anything up to and including the PS2, GameCube/Wii and (for all I
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I'm not all that concerned about picture quality but (low) latency is essential.
My old sharp AQUOS TV needs only 2 processing stages to scale. Latency is negligible, if you don't have other sources stacking up someplace else.
Re: No device necessary (Score:2)
Still not enough to play Duck Hunt on the Nes.
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For Zapper games, you may need a PowerPak or EverDrive and an IPS patch that lets you use a mouse. I've developed an NES game that uses a Super NES Mouse through an easy-to-build adapter [pineight.com].
It’s not the same thing with a mouse.
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But keyboard and mouse is the one true way to play shooters.....
Well done, sir.
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Yes it is (Score:2)
Use an emulator?! No thanks, that's like telling vinyl enthusiasts to get MP3s. Accuracy is important, and emulators are a mixed bag, and to ask someone wh
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It largely comes down to the quality of the scaling hardware within the display and the assumptions it makes about the signal. I knocked together an RGB-to-component converter for the Apple IIGS [upverter.com] recently and tried it out with the LCD displays I had on hand: three TVs (two name-brand and one not-so-name-brand) and a monitor that also has component input (and S-video and composite, in addition to the usual VGA and DVI). T
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How about instead, using an emulator
That'd be fine if more people had a PC in the living room.
Sourcing a CRT SDTV (Score:2)
[Emulation problems] may all have solutions, but none are as simple or practical as plugging the actual hardware into a CRT SDTV that just works and looks great.
Sourcing a CRT SDTV with A/V inputs in good condition and making a place for it in your home might not necessarily be practical. Many CRT SDTVs that I see at garage sales and charity shops have only an RF input, introducing noise and requiring an RF modulator at additional cost for fifth-generation and later consoles.
Monster cables not always expensive (Score:2)
Commodore RGB monitors were the best... (Score:1)
... for super Nintendo and retro gaming.
The image of these little monitors were the best one could get for a reasonable price.
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I adore my 64: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
Seriously though, are you keeping up with the Commodore? https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Pretty neat device (Score:2)
Pretty neat if you can afford it plus the cost of modding your console for RGB-out, which by itself is at least $100 for just the parts, and there are a limited number of those - the ones I've seen were stripped from old PlayChoice 10 cabinets. For us common trolls, a good emulator + a warezed ROM collection does the job.
It's supposed to look that way (Score:3, Informative)
Classic consoles, notably the NES, purposefully used the blur of the CRT for shading and other effects that the console couldn't do. The graphics simply aren't meant to be seen in super clarity. You see all of the pixels, and the colors are overly bright and flat. It's just... wrong.
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And that's why the old consoles can output RGB via SCART.../sarcasm
Re:It's supposed to look that way (Score:4, Informative)
That the (S)NES and Genesis can output RGB via modding doesn't change the fact that game developers did use the artifacts from the composite output and the CRT to do what the GP mentioned.
RGB on Scart (Score:3)
Megadrive (the Genesis in EU and Japan) supported RGB out-of-the box (all the signals are there on the DIN / miniDIN cable), no need to mod the console, just buy the appropriate cable (SCART in EU, or the Japanese equivalent).
(I have no first-hand experience, but I might guess that the situation is similar with Super Famicom vs US' SNES)
That the US market had a crappier output possibility, combined with a worst Video standard (nicknamed Never The Same Color :-P ) doesn't change the fact that everybody else
Artifact colors (Score:2)
That the US market had a crappier output possibility, combined with a worst Video standard (nicknamed Never The Same Color :-P ) doesn't change the fact that everybody else around the world had better quality, including the developers back in japan.
The analog TV standard in Japan was NTSC with a different black level. This is why the Famicom and NTSC NES use the same 2C02 PPU, while PAL regions need a different 2C07 PPU.
The situation is completely different from the first home computer doing "composite synthesis" and achieving more colours on the screen than supported in the GFX hardware.
You're referring to the 7.16 MHz pixel clock of several early game consoles and home computers (Apple II, Atari 400/800, Atari 7800, IBM CGA, etc.), which was exactly twice the NTSC color burst frequency. This let the program synthesize the exact waveform going out the wire. The Genesis's pixel clock, on the other hand, was 15/8 times
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Then you also had the Amiga with its copper that allowed you to play all kinds of tricks to give you more colours, such as recomputing a new palette every line etc.
Different situation (Score:2)
Amiga is used a co-processor to display cool stuff on the screen. But its displaying things that it has an actual internal representation. And work on any display connected to the machine (or even emulator, if the emulator can handle the internal copper chip).
CGA/composite is a hack abusing the way NTSC singal work. The machine is ouputing a monochrome signal, but the software abuses the way an NTSC display work and it appears as a coloured picture. (But these colours don't exist in the display buffer. It d
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Actually, the Copper did allow you to sidestep hardware limitations too. Hardware-wise you were limited to a maximum of 12-bit palette, but the Copper effectively let you get, IIRC, 18-bit palette.
Also, there were plenty of tricks to get NTSC Amigas to play PAL demos, and vice versa.
in plat-form vs. standard abuse (Score:2)
I'm just a pedantic fool nitpicking between:
- a in-hardware solution: the platform can be asked to generate a different signal creating a different output.
yeah, there are also hardware limitation (RAM is expensive, so Video-RAM is in small quantities) and thus tricks required (HAM stores small 'deltas' between adjacent pixels instead of coding full RGB tripplet, so it can cram hi-colour picture inside the limited video-ram ; copper can be used to change palette at each line refresh, so that you get a nice g
EU and Japan (Score:2)
The analog TV standard in Japan was NTSC with a different black level. This is why the Famicom and NTSC NES use the same 2C02 PPU, while PAL regions need a different 2C07 PPU.
Except that, in the eighties, virtually any TV sold in Europe had a Scart connector (Mandatory on any TV sold after 1980. I don't remember having seen a TV without it), and TV sold in Japan had a RGB-21 connector (technically similar. physically, the connectors have the same shape but use slightly different pin-outs). That was simply the standard interconnect to plug *any* consumer electronics on a TV outside of the US.
So starting with MasterSystem and Megadrive (again that's my first hand experience. I'm n
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It's supposed to look that way (Score:3, Interesting)
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There are a number of titles on NES that I can think of such as Empire Strikes Back which only look correct on CRT or anything that does proper NTSC color artifact emulation. (and actually sonic games on genesis too!) I've written a game editor for Apple // graphics which uses NTSC artifacts as part of the editing experience -- and also part of the image dithering/conversion algorithms -- and believe me: It makes a huge difference when you are designing graphics with a 6-color palette where you actually get an extra handful of extra "fringe" colors when using some combinations. If you are still unsure, use an emulator with NTSC emulation (Blargg's is great) and then switch over to plain RGB. There is a huge difference.
Also, a final note on this (Caveat: I am an emulation author and this information is in a very well written wikipedia article on Y'UV if you want to fact check me...) You will NOT EVER get the same colors from RGB than you get from a CRT. The color spaces are different. Emulators can simulate (and in some cases very well) what an analog display does, but it only goes so far. In the NTSC-to-RGB conversion process you wind up having to transform from one color system (Y'UV) to another (RGB) using some rather simple math but then you also have to alias the results to fit the values (which are often outside the 0-255 range). There are colors in the Y'UV spectrum (I'm talking about the Apple colors but there are some on Atari and NES too) that are so saturated that they look completely neon, and those colors actually don't exist in the RGB spectrum at all so you wind up with a rather muted look compared to the real thing.
A scan doubler is okay I suppose for this, but really if you want it to look old school nothing beats the real warm glow of a CRT. If you want to play retro games on an RGB screen, just use an emulator. They're cheaper, and if done correctly you're lucky to ever really notice a difference. :-) I think that you can take a Raspberry Pi and make a dedicated emulator solution for 20% the cost of this scan doubler solution and be just as happy if not happier.
You can't say YUV has colors that RGB doesn't and expect that to apply to reality. You have to compare the actual output of a CRT to the actual output of something displaying an RGB signal. Monitors and TVs have such wildly different physical mappings for given color spaces that you simply can't make such a blanket statement.
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IIRC, most standard CRTs are around as poor as LCDs at displaying green, and probably worse than decent LCDs.
I dunno, but if you ask me, it seems like green [comley.us] was the only color standard CRTs were good at displaying.
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I'm not sure I'm buying the "NES relied on blur and shadowing" argument. The first two years of US first-party titles had purposely blocky box art [google.com]. This was apparently done as to not raise buyers' expectations of the graphics (compared to box art for other systems like the 2600).
Re:It's supposed to look that way (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure I'm buying the "NES relied on blur and shadowing" argument.
Here's an example that may convince you. From a snes game, but still 240p.
Crisp Blocky pixels: http://files.tested.com/upload... [tested.com]
With NTSC blur and artifacts: http://files.tested.com/photos... [tested.com]
Which do you think is closer to the artist's intention?
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I think the main effect apart from the brightness is that every pixel's colour is smoothed out into the surrounding pixels. A bit like what the inherent motion blur does with 24fps cinema film.
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Good point on the size. After zooming the pictures so that they're roughly the same size in my browser, the blocky pixels don't look *that* bad.
But goodness, the blurred version looks beautiful.
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My thoughts exactly.
Back in the day there were a lot of tricks that enhanced the graphics due to the blur.
The IBM CGA Display Used tricks on old monitors to enhance the output [wikipedia.org] The Composite mode which is what standard TV's were like were blurry in high resolution 640x200 but, created color artifacts that could be utilized. The RGB displays were crisper but made all those tricks moot and you ended up with a B&W display.
Nintendo didn't want people to see the pixels they wanted to see the characters. So
old Mrs. Titti Wampus looked that bad, too. (Score:2)
A Win98SE console ROCKS! (Score:1)
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What good would a dual CPU do for win98?
The 4GB is overkill too...
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except...
1-Win98 won't even see the second core as it's not SMP aware
2-Win98 will probably have problems using above 1.5GB of RAM
http://support.microsoft.com/k... [microsoft.com]
Want speed? get some CF cards and IDE adpaters
"a rare SCART cable" (Score:2)
obviously this person has never heard of Ebay
It's Worth The Effort (Score:5, Interesting)
I have all my consoles using Euro style SCART cables (these are fairly cheap and easy to find on ebay). The biggest issue is finding a nice CRT that supports RGB as most end user monitors do not. This is where the Sony PVM comes in. It's a high end CRT display that was mostly used by video production and television companies. These monitors support RGB along with S-Video and composite (although why you'd want to use composite after you have RGB is a mystery). They used to be pretty cheap, but now that more people are getting into RGB modding they've shot up in price over the past year or two. 20" models can still be found for $100 or so, but the larger models (27" tubes) can run $300 or more. If you're resourceful enough you can find them locally or on Craigslist as many local companies are finally starting to junk them. I have some friends who use the Frame Meister, but I think the PVM looks better. These systems were meant to be played on CRTs (not to mention you can use light guns).
In the end it's really not that hard to do, but there is an upfront cost involved. Still, if you're into classic gaming on original systems you should really look into it. This site has a lot of good info: http://www.chrismcovell.com/go... [chrismcovell.com]
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1. I don't have a 20" VGA monitor with a 4:3 form factor sitting around that I can use, but I do have a 20" RGB CRT that I use with the rest of my systems.
2. Not all games are compatible with the VGA box (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure comes to mind), while almost all are compatible with SCART.
VGA does look better than SCART, but the difference isn't great enough to make me have a dedicated VGA monitor sitting around just for my DC.
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Nintendo and TV quality (Score:2)
When I used to have a Nintendo (NES), I would hook it up to my cheap TV and the picture was fuzzy, edges were clipped, etc. Then I connected it to an Amiga 1080 (?) NTSC video monitor. The improvement was dramatic. Same (theoretical) resolution, but much sharper and better color.
I don't mind old graphics, I mind 10,000 FPS (Score:3)
There's no reasons modern cards should engage into all out maximized FPS mode on old games. I also don't like the extra heat in the summer. I'm thinking of playing some AC1 in a few months when it gets colder. There's no reason AC1 should crank much heat at all, but I guess I just don't know how to turn my graphics card from going all out on an older game.
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Get a new GPU and monitor that supports FreeSync/Adaptive Sync IIRC it's part of the DisplayPort 1.2a and HDMI2.0 specs. This way the GPU will only produce a frame when the screen is actually ready, the results are a much smoother picture then vSync or running the card maxed out.
Weither you go for picture quality, color accuracy and viewing angles with a 60Hz IPS panel or raw framerate with a 144Hz TN panel you'll have much better rsults then the current way of doing things.
You need 15K for the Zapper (Score:2)
Other parts of the world? (Score:2, Insightful)
What other parts? Where are you from? If you include a relative reference, at least mention what it's relative TO. You know, the internet is worldwide, FFS.
Bad typo (Score:2)
Very bad typo in the article. Composite is what's bad. Component is excellent. People get the two mixed up.
My HDTV is one of the few picture tube HDTVs ever made, and it does not have HDMI at all. Component is what I use for video, and even though the television doesn't do 1080p, the picture for games for example like Grand Theft Auto V which has to run in 780p is amazing.
Re: Bad typo (Score:2)
Emulators? (Score:2)
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I wish HDTVs were 240p-aware (Score:2)
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I don't know why the hell they omitted 240p/line doubling mode from HDTVs. It's truly a pain in the ass.
Because it's only a pain in the ass for a tiny proportion of users.
TFA is incorrect (Score:2)
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Yeah, they meant composite.
Also, these are not "better graphics." They're the same graphics, upscaled differently.
bad integrated TV upscalers
They're not bad, they're just meant for - wait for it - upscaling TV pictures, not console games.
Do not want (Score:2)
When I use a SNES emulator, I jump through hoops to make it look like it did when I was growing up, simulating a CRT television and the artifacts of composite video. Why would I want to take my SNES and try to make it look like an unmodified emulator? That's the exact opposite of what I want. These games were never meant to be hyper-sharp and pixelated. In fact, some games rely on composite artifacting to make certain effects work.
In fact, I want an upscaler that I can plug my SNES into that will simulate a
Was expecting an article on upscaling filters (Score:2)
Frankly (Score:2)
Game play trumps "realistic graphics" any day.
If the game sucks, all the graphics in the world won't save it.
That Wii-U shot looks sabotaged. (Score:2)
It looks to me like they intentionally darkened the image of the WiiU output. I have the Mario Classics collection (basically Mario All Stars) on my Wii, it looks beautiful on my 36" CRT, and I put the virtual console version of the original Super Mario Brothers on my parents Wii, again, looks great on their 60" LCD, other than some aspect ratio induced bad feelings.
Of course advertising materials have a reason to push for their product instead of virtual console.
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The bigger problem is that the slashvertisement has almost as much information as the linked page, most of it word-for-word.
Where's the link for modding our old consoles?
Ah well, back to emulating everything...
NESRGB (Score:2)
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The bigger problem is that the slashvertisement has almost as much information as the linked page, most of it word-for-word.
veering OT, I've been surfing internet on video systems (HD, bitrates, modes, codecs, connectors, etc). Your quote reminded me why so difficult getting good info on the web:
"Yet today you have some manufactures creating completely phony websites that are supposedly written by former employees of the company, who are supposedly letting you in on 'inside secrets' of the companies new equipment, only to find out that it's astroturfing. Astroturfing is when a company tries to disguise their sales agenda as an
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You most likely can use a raspi to generate an snes compliant snes framebuffer and copy it with the snes DMA just like the super FX chip does.
But you will be limited to 20 fps due being all you can copy during the vblank period.
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But you will be limited to 20 fps due being all you can copy during the vblank period.
But that's still good enough for nearly PlayStation 1 video quality, as a bunch of PS1 games ran at 20 fps.
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Indeed. And I want a box that will simulate the experience of a CRT on a high-res LCD, not make it pixel-perfect. I want subtle screen curvature, I want scanlines that actually look like they're on a CRT (simulating how bright and dim scanlines are different sizes) and not just sticking black horizontal lines on the image, I want NTSC composite artifacting, I want to simulate a CRT's subpixel pattern...
Ironically, I can do all that with filters for emulators, but not with a real SNES. It's surprising to me
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I want scanlines that actually look like they're on a CRT (simulating how bright and dim scanlines are different sizes)
That can be done in a shader by starting with linear interpolation and varying the gamma on different output scanlines, with a lighter gamma near the center of each input line and a darker gamma between input lines. The darker gamma will stay dark unless an adjacent scanline is light, at which point the signal bleeds over into the higher response part of the gamma curve.
It's surprising to me that nobody has stuck an FPGA between a composite input and an HDMI output and stuck a CRT simulating pixel shader in the middle.
It's not surprising because such a product would be extremely niche.
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