Australian Consumer Watchdog Takes Valve To Court 139
angry tapir writes The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, a government funded watchdog organization, is taking Valve to court. The court action relates to Valve's Steam distribution service. According to ACCC allegations, Valve misled Australian consumers about their rights under Australian law by saying that customers were not entitled to refunds for games under any circumstances.
G'Day Valve, (Score:4, Funny)
It's shithouse, I want me 22 bucks back ya flamin mongrels.
Yours sincerely,
Alf Flamin Stuart.
Re: (Score:1)
Here, have a snickers!
Re: (Score:1)
Why would you do something complicated like that? Wouldn't it be easier to just torrent the game?
Re: (Score:3)
The top torrent sites are a lot less "dodgy" than uplay (and have better uptime), and the best of the scene outfits put out cracked products that are often more stable than the companies that produce the games.
How many times have we heard about games that had huge problems because of their DRM that were fixed in the torrent?
There may be arguments for using Valve/Origin/U
Re: (Score:2)
While true, I have trouble imagining anyone who can afford games does this. There are so many cheap games out there it seems like a silly bother and... a lot to go through to screw the publisher out of a few bucks.
That said, since the majority of people who do this likely are attemtping to cheat because they couldn't afford many games anyway, the loss of money is likely actually very small since the alternative would be, they don't play the game or download it some other way.
However, they likely tell all th
Re: (Score:1)
So you're admitting that people are too cheap to buy a game yet somehow can afford all their other shiny toys such as phones, computers, most likely cigarettes and alcohol and a whole host of other items.
The loss of money by people stea
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
No actually your moralizing is irrelevant, because the reality is the same no matter how you feel about it. Its been shown in the studies I have run into on the subject that piracy rates drop off with income level. Those with money pay for it.
This lines up perfectly with my own experience, the people who pirate the most tend to make the least amount of money and have the most amount of free time to consume huge amounts of media.
I don't see how your feelings on the topic, which seems to be your only point, m
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
And the second you restart steam to update or go online to download a game, your other game is gone.
That's how it went when I got a refund on STALKER.
Re: (Score:2)
And the second you restart steam to update or go online to download a game, your other game is gone.
That's how it went when I got a refund on STALKER.
If you know how steam's folders are organised, there's a very, very easy way to get around that... yep, gone from steam but not from your HDD.
Not that I would ever advocate that kind of activity mind you.
Re: (Score:1)
If gog.com (DRM free forever,, offline install) DOES support refund, why can't Valve?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:1)
Actually, that is being done with physical products to exploit the generous "no questions asked" 30-day refund period offered by online stores. People buy a relatively expensive product, use it regularly, and return it for a refund on day 29. Or buy 5-6 similar products, use them for almost a month, then return all but one. No wonder one can receive allegedly "new" items bought online with apparent signs of being used (fingerprints, scratches, etc.).
Re: (Score:1)
It's not a problem because you'll get flagged if you do that too many times and the seller will refuse to do further business with you.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly, my one friend did this with PC games. He would buy the game from Electronics Boutique, burn them, then return it claiming it didn't work. After about a dozen returns or so he was banned from the store. (Note: this was back in the mid 90s when CD burners were extremely expensive, so they had a no questions asked full refund on video games since this system wasn't widely abused).
Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. (Score:5, Informative)
It's pretty straight forward, if it breaks within the expected tolerances and lifetime that the average consumer would expect, and is critical to the operation of the device, they must repair, replace, or refund it. If it's a major fault that would've prevented its purchase in the first place, they must refund. If it costs over either $10,000 or $40,000 (I don't recall which off-hand, as it's rarely relevant) then it falls under different warranties, but anything under those is protected.
It basically says "buyer beware" is bullshit and sellers are responsible for providing quality products, not misleading people into buying crappy ones. Though you can still provide crappy products that work just well enough to not be considered broken - they're usable, at least.
Re: (Score:1)
The Checkout crew explain your rights regarding exchanges and refunds. With lols.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE8BB-ioNRw
Re: (Score:2)
I sure hope it's not. Else it's trivial for a company to put another one under. Like, say, a company producing a mainboard with a well known fault. Buy a container of them, run them to failure then DEMAND them to be repaired instead of replaced.
Re: (Score:2)
Easily avoided. Just stop selling a product with a known failure.
Re: (Score:2)
"If it is not possible to repair the fault then the option of replace or refund is available"
In the case Opportunist is talking about, it would be almost impossible to not repair, unless the PCB or traces had damage. Running them to failure just means a quick component reflow/replacement, which is fairly cheap and almost easy enough to automate testing and repair thereof.
Re: (Score:2)
Umm, no. I have clients in Australia. My shit breaks, it's their choice, not mine, to get a refund, repair, or replacement.
The only thing at my discretion is whether I replace it with the exact same item, or I give them an upgraded model in its stead.
Re: (Score:2)
Umm, no. I have clients in Australia. My shit breaks, it's their choice, not mine, to get a refund, repair, or replacement.
The only thing at my discretion is whether I replace it with the exact same item, or I give them an upgraded model in its stead.
Welcome to utter bullshit land.
You dont have clients in Australia, you have at best, people you've ripped off and ignored further contact with as an overseas agent... but in more likelihood you're making the whole thing up.
Yes, an Australian will pursue you for a refund or at the very least ensure that people know not to do business with you again if they cant pursue you through an Australian court.
Re: (Score:2)
"You dont have clients in Australia, you have at best, people you've ripped off and ignored further contact with as an overseas agent."
Uh, yea, you're full of shit. You talk yet you can't provide numbers.
Go the fuck to hell, son.
Re: (Score:2)
He was talking about warranty replacement choices. Those qualify as "major problems".
Re: (Score:2)
"From the ACCC website:"
You're stupid as shit as most consumers opt for replacement.
Total troll, you are.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
More often than not its to counter the large amount of incorrect information that is printed on everything as well as pops up on screen because they fail to localize the release properly, and its just cheaper to slip in a piece of paper.. how ever this lazy application to localization leads to the same things being done for digital releases, except hang no.. no piece of paper..
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. (Score:5, Insightful)
Reading about the US I really like consumer protection laws in Germany. Everything is so much more consumer friendly and open. Companies have to identify themselves (i.e. have an imprint), all taxes have to be included in prices and if you buy something you have all kinds of rights (two week period to send stuff back/cancel contracts, two year warranty on physical items and such) that cannot be taken away by ToSs.
It's such a different culture. US companies often struggle because they're used to the whole "corporations first" mindset.
Re: (Score:2)
There's an analogy to be made with employment law. 'Right to hire' is not an idea that gets much sympathy in Europe.
Re: (Score:1)
Of course they are used to it, they paid for it by funding the election campaigns of lawmakers.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Most of the complaints about pricing in Australia are around digital products, where there are apparently no protections outside the ability to return it if it doesn't work. That can't justify the 50-100% price increase on digital goods. You're correct that the increased price of things like e.g. Apple products is most likely due to them having to provide actual service without you paying extra, but that isn't what a lot of us are complaining about. A few years ago it was cheaper to take a flight to America
Re: (Score:2)
It's the government's fault that U.S. companies don't do that, not companies'. Most countries have a single unified tax structure. A store can set a price, and advertise that price inclusive of taxes nationwide.
The U.S. is an amalgam of tax-governing bodies. The States can set their own sales tax. The counties can set their own sales tax. The cities can set their own sales tax. Consequently, the sales tax rate differs, sometimes from city to city. A store se
Re: (Score:2)
overall, very few products I've encountered are that shabbily made (in fact the only one I can think of was a portable DVD player made by a company which went bankrupt anyway a few months later, so I would've been out the warranty even if I'd bought it in the EU).
Haven't bought a Toshiba have you? They have a 3 month warranty, they DMCA repair guides, you can't get parts to fix them yourself, and repairs start at over $200 then go up. When there shit breaks within 6 to 9 months it doesn't make me a happy customer.
Re:Welcome to Australia, Ferengi. (Score:5, Informative)
Apple tried this in Europe - in Denmark, a government body created a letter people could print out and take to the stores to remind the company about legal requirements and rights.
Re: (Score:2)
I have a few issues with such a sentiment:
From the article Valve's policy is "was not under any obligation to repair, replace or provide a refund for a game where the consumer had not contacted and attempted to resolve the problem with the computer game developer". Whereas the assertion by ACCC states "It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sale".
I don't see a real issue here, Valve are essen
Bad business practice (Score:2, Informative)
I bought the AVGN Adventures game from within the Valve software on my Mac. After downloading the game using the Valve software, the software said the game was Windows only, so I could not install it.
At the support forum I asked for my money back, since it is ridiculous to sell a game using Mac software and then it will not run. Support refused to return my money.
I complained so many times, the support time cost them more than the actual game cost ($10).
Idiots.
Re: (Score:2)
Why did you stop complaining?
Re:Bad business practice (Score:4, Informative)
it is ridiculous to sell a game using Mac software and then it will not run
Doesn't the Steam page for each game explicitly list which operating systems it is compatible with in the information box with all of the other info?
It seems that in his case the store page incorrectly claimed that the software has also a Mac version, but when he purchased it, he found that it's Windows-only.
The store page for AVGN Adventures [steampowered.com] seems to show correct information right now: only a flag symbol showing that it's Windows software. Maybe previously that page had both a flag and an apple symbol? That's how I interpret the situation.
Re: (Score:2)
I've seen this happen when a Mac version of the game is coming, but hasn't actually been released. In my case the game showed up on Mac a month or two later.
When I bought it, I was fine with buying only a Windows version and thought the store was wrong when it showed the mac badge.
For reference: Nothing stops you from buying windows only games on mac.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:1)
I bought the AVGN Adventures game from within the Valve software on my Mac. After downloading the game using the Valve software, the software said the game was Windows only, so I could not install it.
At the support forum I asked for my money back, since it is ridiculous to sell a game using Mac software and then it will not run. Support refused to return my money.
I complained so many times, the support time cost them more than the actual game cost ($10).
Idiots.
Since the games say what they run on when you buy them, I wouldn't give your blind ass a refund either.
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
Since the games say what they run on when you buy them, I wouldn't give your blind ass a refund either.
The only reason Steam even shows you titles which won't run on your platform by default is to trick you into buying them. It's intentionally deceptive.
Re:Bad business practice (Score:4, Insightful)
It doesn't show them 'by default'. The opening page is a list of games for your platform, if you browse to a different category or search for a game, you're taking deliberate action to do so. Make sure you search for Mac games if you want to buy games for a Mac, and make sure its badged for Mac.
Mac Steam doesn't start you in the Windows or Linux games page.
Re: (Score:2)
It doesn't show them 'by default'. The opening page is a list of games for your platform
If that's true, it's new. Last time I launched Steam on Linux, which was at least well after the launch of big picture mode, the default was still to just show all titles.
Re: (Score:2)
Since the games say what they run on when you buy them, I wouldn't give your blind ass a refund either.
The only reason Steam even shows you titles which won't run on your platform by default is to trick you into buying them. It's intentionally deceptive.
I've seen this before.
Mac User installs Steam on their home PC, then installs it on their work PC. Their home PC is a Mac and their work PC is Windows. They buy stuff on their work PC and wonder why it doesn't work at home.
I work at a university. Glad I dont work in support any more. Those who can reach me are smart enough not to out themselves as Mac Users.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
no, it's convenient. and more secure.
I buy *all* of my steam games from my linux machine.
I play nearly all of them on my windows machine. I do not and will not ever use this machine for anything other than playing games - and certainly never use it for any purchases or financial transactions. neither my paypal account nor my credit card details will ever be used on this machine - windows is just too vulnerable and prone to malware to be trusted for that.
if i couldn't see windows-only games while logged i
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
To be fair it says right on the AVGN store page under System Requirements that it requires Windows. The Steam Store is a website that anyone with a browser can access, regardless of what OS they run. I wouldn't expect Newegg or Amazon, for example, to only let me buy computer hardware that is compatible with the OS I am currently browsing from.
Though if you did it through the Steam client itself I can see the confusion... it should probably warn you at checkout in that case that you would need to own a di
Re:Bad business practice (Score:4, Insightful)
The time you lost complaining also cost you more than the $10 you are claiming back.
Perhaps the satisfaction in, in some small way, causing trouble for a company that has treated him unfairly is also worth more than $10 to him.
Re: (Score:2)
Congrats, that $10 down the drain plus a few hours of time spend arguing just turned into a day of lost work to testify. You really showed them! Attaboy!
If you don't like the law of the land, fuck off back to America.
In principle, I agree with you. Honestly, I fucking hate corporations thinking they can get away with anything, and I hate even more that they usually do simply because of the cost of fighting them even when in t
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
If you want what the devil has, you get to deal with the devil, like it or not.
I don't like it. I decided not to buy Portal 2 for just $5. The only Steam games I buy any more are indie titles. I did buy FFVII on Steam, because it was on sale, but then I torrented the non-steam version because fuck having to be always online to play a console game of yore.
Steam is shit.
Re: (Score:2)
Only you normally don't need to be online, as Steam has an offline mode?
Re: (Score:1)
Only you normally don't need to be online, as Steam has an offline mode?
FFVII for Steam refuses to launch if you're not online, at least the first time. This ties into my prior complaints about Steam "backups", which cannot be played until Steam is installed and blessed by Valve, and then the game titles themselves are blessed by Valve.
Re: (Score:2)
Of course you have to be online the first time you launch it, just like you have to be online to download the game. That's not actually a burden.
Steam offline mode has had issues over the years, and I still don't trust it, but having to be online the first time you ever launch a game is the least annoying copy protection possible. There's a freaking checkbox in Steam to launch a game as soon as the download is complete, for goodness sake, so you don't even need to babysit it to do that first launch.
Re: (Score:2)
I've seen even less annoying protections. And games with no DRM or copy protection (they're not the same thing). With steam you gotta wait for steam itself to update, then mandatory updates to the game before first launch. Some games also have subsequent mandatory updates, very annoying to say the least (and when you find out what these important changes are you find out they were trivial fixes for some video card you don't even have). Some other games require you to register outside of steam to get the
Re: (Score:2)
With steam you gotta wait for steam itself to update, then mandatory updates to the game before first launch.
All of which you did when you downloaded the game in the first place.
Then every time you play you have to waaaait for steam to launch first.
Which is why I prefer GOG. But almost no one's willing to sell their games there, and Steam would be equally empty if it were the same as GOG. Steam does a great service in convincing many smaller studios that Steam is "enough DRM," no need for more. (EA can go fuck itself.) It's not like these guys would be on GOG if Steam vanished - they'd be a wilderness of homegrown distribution platforms with DRM licensed from one of the really evi
Re: (Score:2)
Only you normally don't need to be online, as Steam has an offline mode?
Steam's offline mode does not work. It has never worked. It will never work.
The entire premise is fucking retarded - you have to be ONLINE in order to enable OFFLINE MODE. You have to KNOW that you're going to go offline in advance,
If you're not in offline mode and you have no internet connection and you launch Steam, it will simply fail to connect and you can't do anything with the Steam client.
If you are in offline mode and you do have an internet connection Steam will revert to online mode when it fee
Re: (Score:1)
Steam's offline mode does not work. It has never worked. It will never work.
The entire premise is fucking retarded - you have to be ONLINE in order to enable OFFLINE MODE. You have to KNOW that you're going to go offline in advance,
If you're not in offline mode and you have no internet connection and you launch Steam, it will simply fail to connect and you can't do anything with the Steam client.
This is false information. I have used Steam many times in offline mode without explicitly switching to that mode while being online. If the connection fails (before that, you still need to enter a user name and password), the client displays a message if it should try again, or run in offline mode. This will not work only if either the Steam client or the game is in a state where it requires an update, or is not completely installed yet (games need to be run once while online), or the client did not exit c
Re: (Score:2)
or the client did not exit cleanly and is in a possibly corrupt state.
It's too bad that Valve is too incompetent to open config files and the like read-only, so that this doesn't happen. What year is it, anyway? Also, if your client isn't already in offline mode, then you get to sit around holding your dick for minutes until Steam times out.
Re: (Score:2)
I get the dialog telling me to log in or switch to offline mode.
Switching to offline mode simply presents the login dialog again.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Its certainly a pain no argument there but that's not all entirely true. If you have it set to remember your password you can go into offline mode whenever. If I don't have internet at startup when it launches it simply offers the option to go into offline mode. I just did that this morning. As for locking out your games, if you don't want them to update, set them to not update in steam. Its really that easy. I can't say how long it lasts in offline mode, but I've personally gone just over a week (no internet) without any issues. (All in windows)
I have Steam set to remember my password.
If I have Steam running in online mode and exit Steam (waiting for all processes to terminate own their own), then kill my network connection, then start Steam, Steam will launch and flash the default page (Library for me) for an instant before I'm presented with a login dialog. And no, I can't login - if I try it tries to go out to Steam, but my network connection is down so it can't, and I can't do shit.
If you had read my post you would know that telling games to
Re: Bad business practice (Score:1)
Good, now for EA (Score:3, Interesting)
While they're at it they need to look into EA's Origin Sales. They're charging GST on an overseas sale (origin sales are all through EA Switzerland).
Re: (Score:2)
I'm utterly baffled that EA has any customers left.
Umm (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm Australian, I live in Australia, I have successfully received a refund from a game on steam before...
Has anyone tried this recently to verify this is now the case? because I've absolutely received a refund (in steam credit, admittedly - not a cash/credit refund) for The War Z about 12 months ago.
Re:Umm (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah, but they don't give you the refund because of consumer law, they give it to shut you up.
I have gotten refunds off them in the past, and mentioned this law in the request and they stated it doesn't apply to them. I guess the ACCC think otherwise.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
I'm also Australian, I live in Australia also, and believe me I can show you an email conversation between myself and Valve employees trying to get a refund that's so bloody long I could print and publish it into a book. I sent several dozen screenshots of forum posts of other people getting refunds for a game while they were refusing my own refund, I sent them screenshots of dozens upon dozens of forum posts disassembling the wall of lies they built on the requirements to receive a refund i.e. you can only
Re: (Score:1)
I'm Australian, and I think maybe the best thing about this place is the ACCC.
This time last year I was a super-hardcore valve fan, singing their praises and buying up pretty much every new game that came out for linux, including much of valve's catalog (which I had previously pirated). I was even thinking about trying to build a few steam boxes to sell on ebay.
One game I bought was Fez. It didn't work properly, making it unplayable. I emailled Fez support and recieved no response.
I emailled valve demanding
Don't see what Valve's problem is ... (Score:2)
There appear to be a bunch of exemptions that prevent people from purchasing and frivolously returning a product. In effect, the only way that a consumer can legitimately return a product is if it doesn't reflect advertised claims or if they did not make the system requirements clear (i.e. it didn't work properly on a consumer's system because Valve did not list or listed misleading system requirements).
On top of that, anything sold through Steam with DRM cannot be returned fraudulently (e.g. the consumer
Re:Don't see what Valve's problem is ... (Score:4, Informative)
They already can process refunds, I know that.
The case is in regards to them advertising that there are no refunds allowed, they are most certainly NOT allowed to do that. Note, if the product is not of merchantable quality, they can also be refunded (so no more buying a game that runs terribly or crashes a lot).
Why don't steam offer refunds. (Score:2)
I suspect that the reason steam don't offer refunds is that some many games can be completed in under 12 hours, sometimes just 4-8 hours.
Since steam is a DRM platform I think it is up to them to use some kind of metric in conjunction with the game creators to decide whether a game has been sufficiently played as to have been 'used'. Not all games have straight forward 'completion' and even if you 'complete' a game you may only have a 50% 'completion stat'
Steam already counts the number of hours a game has
Re: (Score:3)
They do refunds, but only if you push.
What the ACCC is upset about is that they don't, as you say, offer refunds. The laws are quite clear in regards to what must be refunded/replaced. If the product is not of merchantable quality, it must be refunded. If the product breaks within the accepted lifespan, it can be refunded, repaired or replaced (this could cover things like a honorific patch for a game that is force-installed).
And while measuring if the game runs might be one metric, it most certainly should
Re: (Score:2)
Correction to that: they do refunds, but only in one of two cases:
1. You bought the game as a pre-order and it has not yet been released.
2. They will occasionally do refunds as a "one-time customer support gesture".
I've seen a lot of stuff on Steam (and other distribution services that don't allow refunds) that makes me think we need a ruling like this in the United States.
Best recent example I can think of is a game called From Dust. From Dust had Ubisoft's always-online DRM on it, a fact that wasn't made
Re: (Score:2)
I got one on Brutal Legend that still advertises a version that 'Includes the full game and a copy of the Original Soundtrack!' but, when you get it, it doesn't come with the 'MASSIVE metal soundtrack from every era of metal music: 1970’s classic metal to 1980’s hair metal to the scarier cousins of 1990’s metal. And of course, Jack Black pays the ultimate homage to metal as Eddie the Roadie, continuing the theme from the work of his band, Tenacious D and his previous films like School of R
Re: (Score:1)
Just for the record, what you got is store credit, not the refund you were entitled to.
Complete bans (Score:3)
If anyone thinks
is bad they should remember that Valve can and does sometimes revoke accounts - that can mean the loss of dozens of games and software in one go.
Steam being hugely convenient to consumers != Valve or DRM are always great.
Re: (Score:3)
is bad they should remember that Valve can and does sometimes revoke accounts - that can mean the loss of dozens of games and software in one go.
That sounds like an argument for stronger consumer protection laws.
Good luck with that (Score:2)
Option #1: Valve has no physical presence in Australia, and tells the Australian government to go fuck themselves. Government responds by banning Valve from doing business in Australia. Good luck enforcing that. To the extent they do manage to enforce it, it will be taking action against Australian citizens, since they have no power over Valve.
Option #2: Valve doubles prices in Australia. Y'all can have all the consumer protection you want, but you're going to pay for it.
Re: (Score:2)
Option #3 Valve gives refunds, the world doesn't end.
Re: (Score:1)
Come now, the internet is no place for a logical point reasonably expressed.
Re: Good luck with that (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
When Valve has local (already higher than US) pricing in Australian dollars and forces people through their Australian store it is hard to argue that they don't have a business presence in Australia. Similarly when retail box games sold in Australia require Valve to be installed, it is hard to argue they don't have a local business presence.
I'm not sure if Valve does have assets in Australian but in the event they did attempt a "runner", the logical method for enforcing the ruling would be to sue them somew
You do not seem to understand (Score:2)
Sorry Valve has to cop it (Score:3)
but someone needs to fucking pay the god damned price for ripping us off. If you're going to charge us significantly more than other countries for DIGITAL fucking content, then we damn well better get something for it.
Did I mention that we used to pay the same price as the states for this stuff? Until Valve and Steam got their shit together and set up regions / regional pricing and billing properly? Once they did, the publishers (most likely) told Valve "to fuck them" (for the most part the actual Valve games are priced the same as the US)
Oh it's not just us, the UK got thoroughly fucked by this too.
Re: (Score:2)
Nonsense. Consumer protection is probably worth only 1% of a game's price. Unless the company is putting out games where most of the customers are going to complain about it.
Re: (Score:2)
Typical libertarian stance with no relation with reality whatsoever. If you have no consumer protection you pay more, simply because the seller can pull out any scam without consumer recourse. Plus the Americans do have effective consumer protection [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:2)