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First Person Shooters (Games) Quake Games

John Romero On Reinventing the Shooter 266

An anonymous reader writes: John Romero helped bring us Doom, Quake, and Wolfenstein, but he's also known for Daikatana — an immensely-hyped followup that flopped hard. After remaining on the periphery of game development since then, Romero announced last month that he's coming back to the FPS genre with a new game in development. Today, he spoke with Develop Magazine about his thoughts on the future of shooters. Many players worry that the genre is stagnant, but Romero disagrees that this has to be the case. "Shooters have so many places to go, but people just copy the same thing over and over because they're afraid to try something new. We've barely scratched the surface."

He also thinks the technology underpinning games matters less than ever. Romero says high poly counts and new shaders are a distraction from what's important: good game design. "Look at Minecraft – it's unbelievable that it was made by one person, right? And it shows there's plenty of room for something that will innovate and change the whole industry. If some brilliant designers take the lessons of Minecraft, take the idea of creation and playing with an environment, and try to work out what the next version of that is, and then if other people start refining that, it'll take Minecraft to an area where it will become a real genre, the creation game genre."
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John Romero On Reinventing the Shooter

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  • by Anonymous Coward

    Sorry, I cannot read TFA without my trusty sidekick superfly

  • by Wonko the Sane ( 25252 ) * on Monday September 08, 2014 @09:15PM (#47858625) Journal
  • I am more interested in reinventing of John Romero, the old one only good as a bait for the inevitable flamewars. I am sure we can add more features.
  • He's right (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gman003 ( 1693318 ) on Monday September 08, 2014 @09:55PM (#47858803)
    I've got ideas for plenty of shooters that do things differently. Two have actually made it to playable prototypes, and confirmed that yes, the ideas are fun. I'd describe them, but I'm in talks to produce them so I'll keep my mouth shut for now. All the marketers think we want are "realistic" modern arena shooters, "realistic" modern open-map shooters, "old-school" twitch shooters, or maybe an occasional squad-level tactical shooter. In other words, a CoD clone, a Battefield clone, a Q3/UT clone, or a R6 clone. That's it. That's 90% of the industry, just remaking the same three games over and over with different settings or skins or variations on the same fucking theme. It's really quite infuriating, since half of them aren't even *good* clones.
    • As a customer, with children, I'd like to at least see a non-violent option, even if it is a parental control switch that changes guns to paintball guns or laser tag or something. There must be some concept that involves the same skills as an FPS, but without the murder and super high end graphics that people want?
      • There must be some concept that involves the same skills as an FPS, but without the murder and super high end graphics that people want?

        Duck hunt or a carnival shooter maybe.

        But, really, there is little overlap between what you want for your children and what the people who play shooters want.

        I think a game like you describe would be lame for people who play shooters, and not really remove the stuff you want except to mask them in paintball.

        Kind of like trying to make a zombie movie without people getting e

        • You're just not using your imagination. Sure it won't appeal to the Michael Bay market, but Wes Anderson makes profitable movies too. As I commented in another reply, a game that involves competing for finding and collecting some sort of resource (Sonic style coin collecting, with 'weapons' being shrink ray, freeze rays, blinding rays etc could easily come up with a formula that is fun and gets the same feel of mayhem without the murder.
          • You're just not using your imagination.

            Or, I've seen games which try to span multiple segments and fail miserably and am skeptical you could make it successful.

            Sure it won't appeal to the Michael Bay market, but Wes Anderson makes profitable movies too.

            Well, given that I had to google who he is, my point about it being a much smaller market seems to stand.

            a game that involves competing for finding and collecting some sort of resource (Sonic style coin collecting, with 'weapons' being shrink ray, freeze rays

      • by Kelbear ( 870538 )

        Take a look at Plants vs. Zombies: Garden Warfare. Class-based arena shooter, but just mild semi-cute cartoon violence.

      • by Kelbear ( 870538 )

        Try Mirror's edge too, very minimal violence. Arguably, if the player needs violence it means they've failed to play the game as intended.

      • There must be some concept that involves the same skills as an FPS, but without the murder and super high end graphics that people want?

        Photography? Recording a film set is called "shooting" for a reason.

    • by Jupix ( 916634 )

      To be fair, it's not quite so dire. There are plenty of shooters that do things differently. Shooters with RPG elements, shooters with stealth elements, shooters with puzzle elements... To ignore those is unfair because your ideas will probably fall into the same category - shooters with a twist (or many twists) to make them a little different than (most of) the shooters that came before.

      My favourite shooters over the last few years have been "shooters with a twist". I've still got a backlog of them. There

    • Don't forget Virtua Cop (fixed movement light-gun action.) I miss Virtua Cop and its clones. When VR becomes more mainstream I expect to see more of this kind of game.

  • by BlackHeron717 ( 3762173 ) on Monday September 08, 2014 @09:55PM (#47858809)
    While I totally agree that Romero was an abject failure, his point still rings true. The need to obtain venture capital to launch a decent game has created an atmosphere stagnation in the genre, and dare I say, the field of game development as a whole. The requirement to produce results has superseded the game designers ability to implement new and interesting game mechanics in my opinion. It would be awesome to see more games that take the genre to a new level, even if the main proponent is someone who has't innovated in years.
    • by PopeRatzo ( 965947 ) on Monday September 08, 2014 @10:19PM (#47858905) Journal

      The need to obtain venture capital to launch a decent game has created an atmosphere stagnation in the genre

      The need has always been there. What's lacking today is the desire to obtain venture capital. In an atmosphere of Kickstarter, which is maybe the worst thing to happen to gaming this decade, why the hell should anyone worry about convincing people to invest when you can get people to just give you the money you want, whether or not you actually build (or finish) a game.

      The phenomenon of "Early Access" games that never, ever make it to final release occurred simultaneously with Kickstarter, and not coincidentally.

      Nah, the requirement to get money to make a game has always been there. But today there are too many shortcuts. And it's everywhere in the corporate world. Why do the hard work of selling an idea to investors, hiring people, getting facilities up and running, etc etc? The goal for most of the corporate world today is obfuscate your income stream so well that people don't realize they're the product. Like google or Facebook. It's one reason you have so many people unemployed and underemployed. When there's so much money to be made by NOT providing a product or service to people who think they are your customers and hiding who your end-users really are, it makes sense that they'd go this route.

      The problem is this shows a deep hostility for your customers and/or users. And it's not sustainable.

    • by pr100 ( 653298 )

      While I totally agree that Romero was an abject failure...

      Doom, Quake, Wolfenstien - "abject failure"? Please.

    • by Xest ( 935314 ) on Tuesday September 09, 2014 @02:37AM (#47859821)

      It's not really fair to paint Romero as a complete failure, he brought soul to id's games, their games were just hollow without him. The success of Wolfenstein, then Doom, then Quake can't be pinned on one person, it was the culmination of talent at id with John Carmack doing great work with graphics programming advances, people like American McGee producing great maps, Romero coming up with great storylines, and Paul Steed producing great models and so on.

      What Romero failed at was going it alone, he just didn't have what it took to manage a project and studio all by himself, that's where he failed. But credit where credit's due, he was responsible in no small part for breathing much of the life into id's games which is why without him, we just had these soulless graphics tech demos that id has produced ever since he left.

      This guy above all else knows what makes an FPS great, what he needs is a great team to take the whole business side of things off him and a great project leader that will give him the freedom to do most of what he wants, but the common sense to reign him in where he starts pushing the boat out just a bit too much in terms of what's practical in a reasonable timeframe and with finite resources. If he finds that, I don't see why he can't breathe life into a great FPS like he's done many times before the great Daikatana fuck up.

      • But credit where credit's due, he was responsible in no small part for breathing much of the life into id's games which is why without him, we just had these soulless graphics tech demos that id has produced ever since he left.

        Quake 2 was the first post-Romero Id game, and I'd hardly call that soulless. But your point does stand; the book Masters of Doom paints a bleak picture of Id post Quake 2, which led to the storyless Quake 3.

        • by Xest ( 935314 )

          I do agree Quake 2 was decent, but as you say it was ultimately the exception. I suspect though even this may be because Romero in part must've had some influence there - he didn't leave id until '96 and Quake 2 was released in 97.

          Ironically he left because of an argument between Carmack and him about the future of the company. The company hasn't done so well since Carmack got his way so as great of an enginer programmer Carmack is I'm still not convinced that he's a talented games developer, because he jus

  • no (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Charliemopps ( 1157495 ) on Monday September 08, 2014 @09:58PM (#47858815)

    Look at Minecraft – it's unbelievable that it was made by one person, right?

    Wrong... the community created minecraft. All Notch did was let them do it. Shooters used to let you do that. Remember that? When we were allowed to make our own maps? I used to not even play the boxed game at all! I'd just go strait to the player made maps. Now you want so much control over the experience because you feel you need to monetize every damned pixel on the screen...

    Hell, if you want to monetize it... monetize the map editor tools...
    Want copy&paste? $5!
    Pre-fab German bunker? $1!
    Allow map makers that attract a lot of players to earn these tools based on visitors...
    Give the players up-votes that would give the map makers in-game currency to improve maps with.
    That would sell.

    • Re:no (Score:5, Informative)

      by Nemyst ( 1383049 ) on Monday September 08, 2014 @11:11PM (#47859137) Homepage
      Not even necessary. Just do what Valve did: make all of the community created work sellable at the maker's choice on an official platform and take a cut from every transaction. The authors are happy because they get to profit from their work, the users are happy because there's a truckload of cosmetics, including some really rare and valuable ones that they can flaunt around, and obviously Valve is happy because they're basically making money by doing nothing. It's working stupidly well for them with Dota 2.
    • The new Unreal Tournament will be completely free (not free to play, actually legit free), but the community will be allowed to make maps, mods, and other content for it that they can give away for free or sell on the marketplace.
    • Wrong... the community created minecraft. All Notch did was let them do it.

      Wrong. Notch didn't let them do it, he just didn't try to stop them. Minecraft had no hooks for moddability whatsoever until recently. Consequently you had problems with mods stepping on one another. It's not until 1.8 that Minecraft has switched to using namespaced block ids internally to prevent this.

      What's most amazing about Minecraft is that none of the technically-superior free alternatives won out. Probably if they actually supported the same data files there would be some actual competition. It's not

  • Let me guess, he's gonna make us his bitch?
  • So? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by XaXXon ( 202882 )

    Why anyone cares what this guy has to say boggles my mind. He may have had a hand in some good games decades ago, but what have you done for me lately?

    Oh yeah, you took a steaming turd on my computer. Thanks.

    In other news, North Korea is the best Korea.

    • by Khyber ( 864651 )

      "Oh yeah, you took a steaming turd on my computer."

      I don't recall him having any part of Windows, Linux, or OSX development.

      MenuetOS Master Race. Making n00bs like you into bitches one install at a time.

  • by PopeRatzo ( 965947 ) on Monday September 08, 2014 @10:11PM (#47858869) Journal

    I hope that whatever Romero is doing doesn't turn out to be Free-2-Play or co-op or with multiplayer focus.

    The beauty of his best games was that they were single-player, with some very fun multiplayer as a bonus. The current gaming industry mode seems to be co-op or multiplayer primarily with maybe a very short single-player campaign thrown in.

    I understand that this trend started primarily as a way to prevent some kid in Estonia from having a nickel in his pocket that didn't belong to the gaming industry, and I don't fault them because their nature is to be money-grubbing monsters who basically hate their customers. But somehow, the great single-player games managed to make a nice profit. Nice enough to finance a stinker like Daikatana.

    Oh, and there's a new meme going around the gaming industry and the domesticated, corrupt gaming press: The notion that someone current games are too long and give players too much to do. You'll hear phrases like "shorter, more focused game experiences" which basically means they can spend less on development (and let's face it, the gaming press is mostly made up of wannabe indie game devs). If they could figure out a way to sell a $59 game that lasted 45 minutes, they'd do it in a heartbeat. Yeah, it's going around. You're hearing about how "players don't want long games" and "gamers would rather have an intensely fun one hour game than a grindy 100 hour one", as if those were the only two choices. Of course, this ignores the wild success of games like Skyrim and even current ones like Divinity: Original Sin.

    Anybody who observes consumer culture knows where this is going. It's not a new concept. Give people smaller boxes of cereal for the same price as a large box and maybe they won't notice or care. Start with a subscription-only service which markets itself as "commercial free" and then start slipping in commercials, as if it were always inevitable (maybe it was).

    No, I'm pretty sure the big difference between the successful game publishers of today and the old-school types like Romero is that Romero actually seemed to like gaming and gamers. The level of cynicism in F2P, co-op, Day 1 DLC, etc etc is pretty shocking really when you step back and look at it. Until people start to understand the enormous power in their consumption choices, it will only get worse, and the industry is doing everything it can to make game customers feel helpless in the face of these inexorable industry changes. When in reality, they are anything but helpless.

    I hope consumers wake up at some point, but I won't hold my breath.

    • "gamers would rather have an intensely fun one hour game than a grindy 100 hour one"
      This is absolutely true. I don't want a grindy 100 hour game.

      "players don't want long games"
      This is absolutely false, I want a long game that I enjoy all the way through.

      Just to give an example, I really enjoyed Far Cry 3, but I got bored of it after ~20 hours through, could not bring myself to finish the game. This left a sour taste in my mouth. After a while the gameplay just kept repeating itself, the gameplay itself was

      • by geekoid ( 135745 )

        Do you want a long game all the way through or do you want a lot of small games tied together with a good story?

    • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      I hope that whatever Romero is doing doesn't turn out to be Free-2-Play or co-op or with multiplayer focus.

      The beauty of his best games was that they were single-player, with some very fun multiplayer as a bonus. The current gaming industry mode seems to be co-op or multiplayer primarily with maybe a very short single-player campaign thrown in.

      I understand that this trend started primarily as a way to prevent some kid in Estonia from having a nickel in his pocket that didn't belong to the gaming industry, a

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by future assassin ( 639396 ) on Monday September 08, 2014 @11:06PM (#47859119)

    Wanna try something different check out the Hook and Minsta servers on Xonotic. Not my cup of tea but some super fast game play while you can fly around better than spider man.

    http://www.xonotic.org/ [xonotic.org]

  • "take the idea of creation and playing with an environment, and try to work out what the next version of that is, and then if other people start refining that"

    Red Faction: originally you could destroy terrain, in the newest you can rebuild some of it

  • he used the phrase "take the lessons of"

  • Praising one-man work (Minecraft), then "if only some brilliant designers take the lessons from Minecraft" (aka like Romero, right?), then it would elevate the genre and the gaming scene etc etc.
    Hey Romero, people have already been creating/playing with the environment, if you want to "refine", better start working and stop talking, others are ahead in the game.
  • Technology is essential to gaming, because without great code to back up your design (no matter how modest that design may be) your game will be glitchy, slow, or unplayable. In fact, Notch is a programmer first, designer second. The design of Minecraft (and many of his other games) seems to have evolved organically out of his programming experiments as well as the community.

    So technology is still a big deal in gaming. Stop trying to convince us you're still relevant, Romero, and go sling some code. No game [penny-arcade.com]

  • Romero's example of re-defining the creation/sandbox genre post-Minecraft is a little late to the game (pun shamelessly intended). At least one big player, Sony, has introduced a next-gen sandbox (currently in open Beta) called Landmark, and I'm sure others are forging ahead as well.

  • At first glance, I thought John Romero had reinvented the scooter. Segway 2.0 with a BFG on the handle bar?

  • One of the biggest limitations of the Shooter genre is right there in the name.

  • One thing which has long irked me about the FPS genre is the static nature of the game world.

    The advent of realistic physics engines has made it possible to move past this limitation, but very little effort has been expended to actually do so. Admittedly, I don't game as much as I used to, but the only game that's coming to mind right now is Crysis. I don't think I ever got very far in the game, but I vaguely remember buildings and other larger structures actually being made up of smaller pieces which co

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