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The Almighty Buck Games

To Fight Currency Mismatches, Steam Adding Region Locking to PC Games 160

will_die writes Because of recent currency devaluation Steam has now added region locking for games sold in Russia and CIS. Brazil and local area and Indonesia and local area are also being locked. If you purchase a game from one of those regions you cannot gift it to somone outside of the area. So someone from Russia can gift a game to someone to Georgia [Note: This Georgia, rather than this one, that is.] but not to someone in the USA. You want to see the prices in the Russia store and compare them to the Steam Christmas Sale which should be starting in a few hours.
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To Fight Currency Mismatches, Steam Adding Region Locking to PC Games

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  • Why Steam? Why? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by houstonbofh ( 602064 ) on Thursday December 18, 2014 @09:53AM (#48625319)
    You have a DRM system that is the least hated (and actually liked in some cases) by the users of any. (And the Linux support is appreciated by a LOT of folks, including me.) Doing this will only fan the flames of hate for a very small increase in revenue. Because people will move or travel, and all there games will stop working, and they will post it all over the net. And you will get zero sympathy for this crap.
    • Re:Why Steam? Why? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 18, 2014 @09:59AM (#48625373)

      Didn't the rouble lose like a million percent of its value against the dollar in a day or something? They don't want you to take advantage of that, but they also don't want to alienate the Russians by raising their prices to compensate for the currency crash. I guess the middle ground should be: if you buy from the US store you can use it everywhere. If you buy from the Russian store you're stuck in Russia until you purchase the worldwide upgrade.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by MobyDisk ( 75490 )

        Didn't the rouble lose like a million percent of its value...but they also don't want to alienate the Russians by raising their prices to compensate for the currency crash

        Economically speaking, this would mean that valve is selling games at 1 millionth of the usual price, but still profiting off them. Profiting so much, that they are willing to make custom software changes rather than just change the price. That's surprising math to me. Sometimes I wonder why companies, especially companies selling digital goods, don't just set the price in one particular currency then let it somewhat auto-fluctuate in the other currencies according to the market. Wouldn't that be simple

        • Re:Why Steam? Why? (Score:5, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 18, 2014 @10:54AM (#48625917)

          Politically speaking, Russia's currency lost value because they invaded a nearby nation and they are under sanctions.

          That was more like the catalyst. The real blow came from the ~50% decline in oil prices since the beginning of the year. The Russian economy is 40%+ oil and gas and their export economy is almost entirely based on exports of same. The decline in oil prices did far more damage than sanctions or political talk alone could ever hope to.

        • by lgw ( 121541 )

          Sometimes I wonder why companies, especially companies selling digital goods, don't just set the price in one particular currency then let it somewhat auto-fluctuate in the other currencies according to the market. Wouldn't that be simpler for them?

          Sorry, that's illegal in many countries with fucked currencies.

          Most seller of luxury goods in Russia aren't selling at all. The ruble is toilet paper now, and you can't legally sell in dollars (though there's a very long tradition of doing so anyhow). You'll get 2x as many rubles for a dollar on the street as the official exchange rate, as people with limited access to the international market are paying a premium to GTFO. The only other choice Steam has is to stop selling to Russia at all.

          Google's marke

          • Re:Why Steam? Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Eunuchswear ( 210685 ) on Thursday December 18, 2014 @11:34AM (#48626361) Journal

            Had this happened 5 years ago, it's likely ISIS wouldn't have happened, but sadly they can survive now without Iranian funding.

            Oh, dear, you were doing so well with your amateur economics lesson, then you stray into international affairs and fuck up bad.

            Iran has never funded, and could never conceivably fund, ISIS.

            ISIS is a bunch of Sunni islamic loons. Iran is a bunch of Shia islamic loons. ISIS kill Shia more or less on sight.

            Iran is an ally of ISIS's enemies, Iraq and Syria. Iran is currently bombing ISIS.

            If ISIS received outside funding it came from the Gulf, possibly including Saudi Arabia.

        • Economically speaking, this would mean that valve is selling games at 1 millionth of the usual price, but still profiting off them. Profiting so much, that they are willing to make custom software changes rather than just change the price.

          The GP was exaggerating, It's actually lost about half it's value [xe.com]. Also steam already has code to enforce region locking on games sold through other channels and already has code to set different prices for different countries. So I would assume this was a fairly minor tweak from a technical perspective.

          Sometimes I wonder why companies, especially companies selling digital goods, don't just set the price in one particular currency then let it somewhat auto-fluctuate in the other currencies according to the market. Wouldn't that be simpler for them?

          Simpler? yes, more profitable? no.

          The ammount people are prepared to pay for goods varies with how rich they are and with existing norms in their country. Therefore the pricepoint that balances number of sal

          • Simpler? yes, more profitable? no.

            You sure? I will not buy region locked crap. And in spite of what my mother told me, I am not that special. When you can get a better quality product for free with a little more trouble, some people choose that route.

        • "Sometimes I wonder why companies, especially companies selling digital goods, don't just set the price in one particular currency then let it somewhat auto-fluctuate in the other currencies according to the market."

          The concept you are looking for is "reservation price". Strictly speaking, ever buyer has a different maximum price they are willing to spend and the seller would like to charge them each that different price. In some situations that's easy (negotiated sales contracts) and some situations that's

      • by Anonymous Coward

        "Didn't the rouble lose like a million percent of its value against the dollar in a day or something?"

        Ummmm not quite. The rouble has lost roughly 50% of its value against the US dollar over the last two years.

        • The rouble has lost roughly 50% of its value against the US dollar over the last two years.

          For values of two years that are rather closer to six months.

    • Re:Why Steam? Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ArcadeMan ( 2766669 ) on Thursday December 18, 2014 @10:00AM (#48625383)

      Let's say the game costs 10 times less in Russia. You ask Russian friend to buy it for you but you send him twice the amount required. That means you both got the game for 1/5th of the U.S.A. price. The game creators and Steam lose.

      Let's say Steam increases the price in Russia so that it matches the U.S. dollar value. Your Russian friend can no longer afford games. Your friend, the game creators and Steam lose.

      • Which is assuming that the people who would of bought the game full price instead went out of their way, and dealt with shady Russian mobsters to get a discount. A large amount of revenue would not of been funneled through Russia, and there is no evidence than any money would of been lost by Steam or Developers, indeed some might say that it would of increased sales.
      • If you can afford to sell a game developed in America to Russians at a high enough price to make a profit, then you can sell the same game at the same price outside Russia and make the same profit. Or will the games companies sell at a loss to Russia, essentially meaning that non-Russians have to subsidize Russian sales?
        • I would expect the sales will have a positive marginal profit, that is the costs directly associated with the sale will be less than the income directly associated with the sale.

          Of course having a positive marginal profit on every sale does not mean you will make a profit overall (and thus be able to stay in buisness). To do that you need to cover all your fixed costs too. It's perfectly possible that selling to everyone at the russian price would not cover the fixed costs but selling to russians at that pr

        • by Cederic ( 9623 )

          This is the bit that fucks me off.

          IT industry wages are depressed because of competition in regions of the world with lower costs of living.

          So I get paid less, but I still have to subsidise their fucking computer games? Sorry but that's just fucking inequitable.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        Let's say the game costs 10 times less in Russia.

        So if a game is $50 in the US, and it costs "10 times less" in Russia, does it mean that it's 10x$50=$500 less than the US price and that Valve will pay me $450 to take it off their hands?

        Or did you mean "one tenth"?

        • Let's say the game costs 10 times less in Russia.

          So if a game is $50 in the US, and it costs "10 times less" in Russia, does it mean that it's 10x$50=$500 less than the US price and that Valve will pay me $450 to take it off their hands?

          Or did you mean "one tenth"?

          "times less" moves the x10 to the other side of the equation.

          Such as $50=10x$5

          Which is the same as $50/10=$5

      • by pubwvj ( 1045960 )

        So what I hear you proposing is that the price in the USA should be 10x higher to subsidize Russian gamers. Sorry but no, Communism was done away with a long time ago. This is absurdity.

        Simple solution: Don't buy Steam games. Easy peasy and they lose out all over the place. Any vendor who tries this junk should go down in flames.

        • It's not that it should be, it's that the Ruble is collapsing. It's a problem for any company doing business in Russia. Many have halted sales. That would be Steam's other option.
      • by Anonymous Coward

        Let's say the game costs 10 times less in Russia.

        Whoa, there. The game costs 1000% less? They're paying me 10x the cost of the game to take it off their hands? Where do I sign up?

      • Let's say the game costs 10 times less in Russia. You ask Russian friend to buy it for you but you send him twice the amount required. That means you both got the game for 1/5th of the U.S.A. price. The game creators and Steam lose.

        Which is exactly what's supposed to happen. If it's economically feasible for the game creators and Steam to sell games at 10% of the price in Russia, there's one of either two things happening:
        1) The price they're selling for in Russa is sufficient to recoup their costs, and they're gouging Americans
        2) They're forcing US customers to subsidise low Russian prices

        "Region Locking" is really just digital protectionism. It's a way to let companies reap the benefits of globalism, while locking consumers out from

      • By that logic, why don't they sell games cheaper in the west to people on lower incomes?

    • Re:Why Steam? Why? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 18, 2014 @10:01AM (#48625403)

      You have a DRM system that is the least hated (and actually liked in some cases) by the users of any. (And the Linux support is appreciated by a LOT of folks, including me.) Doing this will only fan the flames of hate for a very small increase in revenue. Because people will move or travel, and all there games will stop working, and they will post it all over the net. And you will get zero sympathy for this crap.

      I don't see ANYTHING about games ceasing to work. This only prevents you from gifting a game (purchasing on another user's behalf).

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday December 18, 2014 @10:05AM (#48625437)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by Anonymous Coward

      Because the Ruble just tanked to the ground of the ocean due to what if I recall correctly is oil prices, and because there are sites that, traditionally, have taken advantage of this thing by re-selling keys from different regions. This has, thus far, been tolerated, but with one currency from a large region with a big PC gaming market losing value like it current is, there simply is no way Valve could reasonably continue to do so.

    • Resellers (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rsilvergun ( 571051 )
      It's not about revenue, it's about shady resellers. Steam was cheerfully ignoring your Russian buddy gifting you games for ages until a few high profile cases of shady resellers selling bad keys. As has been pointed out in the rest of this thread you can still buy a game in Russia and play it in the US. You just can't gift them anymore. Steam is killing of the key resellers so that ppl knew to Steam and computers don't get ripped off by them.
      • you can still buy a game in Russia and play it in the US.

        One can be "in Russia" (virtually) quite easily, and use a Russian payment method as well. So what does this accomplish?

      • by AvitarX ( 172628 )

        Are you serious?

        I've stopped playing games on disks because it's so annoying. I definitely prefer Steam over a disk check.

        Though I play primarily indie games, so most of my Steam games are non-DRM anyway.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      No, a simple disc check is least hated. This is exactly the problem with Steam, they control all of your games and can deny access any time they want. GOG.com is the way to do game distribution correctly. No artificially required, resource using, spyware client and no DRM in the games.

      • by tepples ( 727027 )

        No, a simple disc check is least hated.

        Since when? I thought Mac computers were shipping without an optical drive now, as were many Windows laptops. Or is a USB SuperDrive optical drive [apple.com] something every Mac owner is supposed to buy?

    • Germany, Austria... Some AAA game are not available, and other are censored. Welcome to our world.
    • You have a DRM system that is the least hated (and actually liked in some cases) by the users of any.

      The fact they have DRM at all speaks volumes of what they think of gamers, the fact that people like you think corporations give a damn when they've been steadily taking your rights away is proof most of mankind is hopeless.

  • Come on, give us some credit. Maybe it's just because I don't live in the US that I'm aware that there's a country called Georgia.

    It's like in most Hollywood movies when they write "Beijing, China", or "Paris, France", but then write "San Francisco, California".

    • by Anonymous Coward

      It's like in most Hollywood movies when they write "Beijing, China", or "Paris, France", but then write "San Francisco, California".

      What do you want them to do? Write "San Francisco, the United States of America"? That is about as practical as "Skopje, the former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia".

      • by Cederic ( 9623 )

        Yes. San Franscisco, USA.

        What, California's now a country? The size of fucking China?

    • by Anonymous Coward

      To be fair, the way the US is SUPPOSED to work (it doesn't, really, anymore) is that the individual states are sovereign and the feds provide an overarching protection on a global scale as well as help to regulate interstate commerce. San Francisco, United States wouldn't fit that depiction. For example, there are 24 locations known as "Washington" in the United States, not just DC or the State. There are 22 Springfields, not just Illinois. There are 21 Salems, not just Massachusetts. Considering the states

    • by mark-t ( 151149 )

      I do not consider myself to be US-centric nor uneducated, but prior to the incident at the Winter Olympics in 2010 where a luge athlete from Georgia was killed during a training run [wikipedia.org], and here in Vancouver, the host city for the Olympics that year, this incident was pretty major news. I had no idea previously that there was evidently a country that was also called Georgia, although I had certainly heard of the US state by the same name. I'm aware of the country now, obviously, and even learned where it wa

      • by jez9999 ( 618189 )

        I do not consider myself to be US-centric nor uneducated, but prior to the incident at the Winter Olympics in 2010 where a luge athlete from Georgia was killed during a training run [wikipedia.org], and here in Vancouver, the host city for the Olympics that year, this incident was pretty major news. I had no idea previously that there was evidently a country that was also called Georgia, although I had certainly heard of the US state by the same name.

        Sorry, but you sound pretty uneducated.

        • by mark-t ( 151149 )
          Can *YOU* name every country in the world, without looking at a map?
          • Name? No. Recognise as a country? Yes.
            • by mark-t ( 151149 )

              Well, it it makes any difference, I graduated from high school over 8 years before Georgia became independent of the USSR, so in retrospect, I don't think it's surprising that I wasn't taught about the country in school.

              Anyways, I learned that it was a country upon hearing the aforementioned news of the athlete who died in the Olympics that year, and honestly, I was only able to tell it was a country from the context. Only the logical incongruity of mentioning a specific US state for an athlete was suf

      • I wonder if it depends on your age. I'm in the age range where I was in grade school during the breakup of the USSR, so it was a big deal to learn all of the former USSR states. People older than me might not have learned about the individual states within the USSR.
        • by mark-t ( 151149 )
          Indeed... I had not considered that as a possibility. The USSR dissolved in late 1991, which was already more than 8 years after I had finished high school.
        • I was in grade school during that period and I don't remember them covering the former USSR states much. It might have been a regional thing.

  • Millions of Russian hardcore gamers are now pissed off, where they didn't give a shit about politics previously.

    He is doomed!!!

  • by pushing-robot ( 1037830 ) on Thursday December 18, 2014 @10:01AM (#48625405)

    You can still buy a game in one location and play it in another, you just can't gift it to someone else's account in another region.

    I'm okay with that; despite what some people here will argue (free market blah blah) I'd sooner see purchase restrictions like this than expect people in poor countries to pay a week's wages for a game or movie or album.

    As long as they don't start making content only available in certain regions, they're making the best of a bad situation.

  • Well, they were simply waiting for a pretext to start boiling the frog. There is no real competition to Steam in digital, they managed to completely kill off PC game retail, so now they will start implementing draconian measures. Region locks. Always-connected. Limited activations. In-game adds.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      Maybe, but many people (including myself) will just go back to piracy. I buy lots of games on steam because it's a solid platform and they (historically) aren't assholes. If they want to change that, I can easily get my games on the real open market.

      • "Maybe, but many people (including myself) will just go back to piracy. I buy lots of games on steam"

        Problem is all new games will be locked to a backend server as technology advances. Notice Starcraft 2 and diablo 3 are always online, two major games. Corporations have made huge inroads against gamers rights. The vast majority of the gaming masses are too illiterate and stupid to know how they are fucking the intelligent half of the gaming community over and completely fucking over game preservation.

  • by RogueyWon ( 735973 ) on Thursday December 18, 2014 @10:10AM (#48625491) Journal

    Ugh...

    Region locks are vile practice. It's infuriating to see them creeping into PC gaming (historically a region-free platform) at a time when two of the three console developers have ditched them and the third (Nintendo) is considering dropping them. That said, it's worth reflecting on why they exist. There are, historically, two reason behind this.

    The first is plain old-fashioned cultural stereotyping (which somebody being less diplomatic might call "racism"). This is the classic Nintendo reason. Big paternalist companies like Nintendo (they're not alone in this, but are the worst offenders) have this weird outlook that says that they should function as some kind of moral arbiter of what should and should not be available in each territory. Hence certain games are "not a good cultural fit for some regions" (usually a view based on offensive broad-brush stereotypes... or racism, if you prefer the more honest term) or "require alterations to be culturally appropriate" (meaning "we're going to cut the game to hell on release in some territories, because REASONS"). Happily, this particular driver behind region locking is on the decline. Sony used to buy into it every bit as much as Nintendo, but have completely washed their hands of it. Even Nintendo are considering getting out of this game. I should add that a few territories (a handful of religious-wacko countries, plus Germany and Australia - what good company they find themselves in) set up their own barriers that require these kind of locks on occasion. In those cases, the blame rests with the Governments of those countries, not the platform owners/publishers.

    The second reason is more complex and is down to differential pricing. Not every currency is of the same strength or stability. The last few days have made that pretty clear, if it wasn't already. And by and large, a lot of those countries which have weak and/or unstable currencies also tend to have very high piracy rates. A lot of companies (Microsoft used to be particularly bad in this respect, but have been stepping back lately) operate under the delusion that if they sell their products really really cheap in those territories, they can get people to buy legitimately, rather than pirating their products (all the evidence to date shows this doesn't work). Problem is, when you do that, you create a huge reverse-import problem; why would a US or European consumer pay the going rate in their territory for a locally-bought copy, when they could import a Brazillian or Russian or Vietnamese copy for a fraction of the price (which probably has English-language support anyway)?

    Now, in a pure free market, one of two things would happen. Either the company selling the product would have to drop its price globally, or else it would have to accept that customers in those marginal economies just couldn't, for the most part, afford its products. But we live in a world where they're allowed to circumvent the free-market at will - via region locks. So first-world consumers get to subsidise producers (usually fruitless) speculation in developing-world markets.

    There's a curious mirror image of this around one particular market; Japan. See, Japanese consumers are willing to pay massively over the odds for media (movies, games, TV series both live action and animated), particularly when said media is domestically produced. Seriously, you think UK or Australian consumers pay over the odds? It's nothing to what they'll pay in Japan. And because Japan has a large media industry which has grown accustomed to being able to milk this unquestioningly loyal (and seemingly happy to be exploited) domestic market, a good chunk of it is desperate to keep said market behind a walled garden, with reverse importing from the rest of the world locked off.

    So yeah... region locking... a few reasons for it, none of them good for the consumer. Truly sad to see it come to Steam (though it's been creeping in at the margins for a while now). The only alternative? Fix all regions' price to the dollar (allowing for differences in local sales taxes, which is the major difference, for instance, between US and UK prices). But then a good chunk of the world wouldn't be able to afford to buy anything like as many games.

    • by Schezar ( 249629 ) on Thursday December 18, 2014 @10:28AM (#48625679) Homepage Journal

      And, none of those reasons are why region locking was added to Steam.

      Further, it's not region locking like you described and railed against. All Steam did is wall off a handful of regions where the local currencies are extremely volatile, and even then ONLY for accounts gifting games to one another between the rest of the world and these tiny regions.

      Your butthurt is misguided here. Let the strawman go.

      • All Steam did is wall off a handful of regions where the local currencies are extremely volatile, and even then ONLY for accounts gifting games to one another between the rest of the world and these tiny regions.

        And, I believe the gifting restriction is only for purchases using real money.

        Right now, Steam has promotion where you get "tokens" (for lack of a better term) from game achievements and can use those to buy games. Those tokens have the same value in all regions, so if you buy a game with tokens, you can gift it to anyone else, regardless of any gifting restrictions on purchased games.

        • Right now, Steam has promotion where you get "tokens" (for lack of a better term) from game achievements and can use those to buy games. Those tokens have the same value in all regions, so if you buy a game with tokens, you can gift it to anyone else, regardless of any gifting restrictions on purchased games.

          Steam gems are gotten from the turning various cards you get from playing various games on Steam (it's based on the game and the amount of time played as opposed to achievements.

          Those tokens are actually an auction, so unless you're the highest bidder, you get nothing.

          Incidentally, said auction ends later today, to be immediately followed with the Steam Winter/Summer sale.

          (I'm too lazy to see if /. support upside down text for Summer)

      • All Steam did is wall off a handful of regions where the local currencies are extremely volatile

        The second reason is more complex and is down to differential pricing. Not every currency is of the same strength or stability.

        ...

        ONLY for accounts gifting games to one another between the rest of the world and these tiny regions

        Problem is, when you do that, you create a huge reverse-import problem; why would a US or European consumer pay the going rate in their territory for a locally-bought copy

        Yeah, sorry bud. He exactly described what they did and why. They want to be able to take advantage of the Russian economy to target Russian consumers, but don't want to allow consumers to benefit from the same economic fluctuations.

        Maybe you should work on your literacy levels instead of spending time thinking of insulting things to say about people whose posts you apparently can't comprehend.

    • by gdr ( 107158 )
      In a free market companies are free to use region locking. Whether this is a good thing or not is a different question.
      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Jiro ( 131519 )

        Breaking the region-locking is illegal because of the DMCA. The DMCA is a law, and is inherently non-free-market.

        • by gdr ( 107158 )
          I agree, it's the DMCA that is anti-free-market not region locking itself.
        • The DMCA was implemented by elected lawmakers.

          Those lawmakers have not been removed from office, with new law makers installed with a mandate to remove DMCA.

          Therefore, the market has voted (with votes, rather than dollars) for the DMCA.

  • Game pricing is great mystery. I tend to buy my games in the UK. Even with shipping they are 30% below the German prices.

    Buying games here locally feels like being ripped off. And the price difference to other countries is even bigger....

    • How much of that 30% is the cost of dubbing the voice acting into German? In Great Britain, they can get away with selling the US version, as American is still mutually intelligible with British English.

      • by mseeger ( 40923 )

        The version bought in the UK have German voice acting as option. But I play my games in English anyway. German voice acting is usually cheaply done and prone to insert errors instead of humor.

      • I *think* Germany is one of the countries with a game rating mafia that insists on changes to their version of the game in order to authorize it's sale in country. Wikipedia agrees at first glance [wikipedia.org] with "Censorship of motion pictures, video games and Internet sites hosted in Germany are considered to be the strictest in the European Union."

        Ergo more programming expense as they have to make the blood cool-aid colored, make it seem like all the bad guys are actually robots, etc...

        The voice acting may be part

  • by Ogive17 ( 691899 ) on Thursday December 18, 2014 @10:28AM (#48625687)
    I can't check until tonight when I get home from work but are account regions locked? I know mine currently shows the US but when I travel to Japan next month, will it update?

    The reason I ask is if VPN could get around this. For example, getting the NHL (ice hockey) package cost $150 in the US. My friend noticed that the cost through a European IP was only $100. He saved $50 just by masking his IP and there is no need to mask his IP when streaming the games live.

    I am curious if something similar could get around the Steam issue.
    • I can't check until tonight when I get home from work but are account regions locked? I know mine currently shows the US but when I travel to Japan next month, will it update?

      Disclaimer: AC mentioned it's against the TOS, but I've done it in the past - Military deployed to the middle east, various countries. I've had issues where I 'had' to use my VPN* in order to purchase games on steam due to mismatches between my local IP and my CC(payment method). Even picked up some cheaper games in a couple spots.

      I didn't receive any bans, but given that I was actually *in* the foreign country, but VPN's back to the USA in order to use my US credit card to buy a game for my US steam acc

  • Note: This Georgia, rather than this one, that is.

    You could have actually said which Georgias you were talking about, instead of requiring someone to visit (or at least hover over) the links. Hyperlinks are great and all, but using them to disambiguate plain text when better-written text would have solved the problem is a bit silly. For example:

    "Note: that's Georgia the Eastern European country, rather than Georgia the US state."

    If nothing else, it would probably make it a lot less confusing for anyone relying on a screen reader.

  • Is it an obsolete move? Russia Central Bank decided to fight back against speculators yesterday. Rouble is up again, and Russia Central Bank USD reserves are huge enough (480 billion IIRC) for them to cause losses to speculators for a while.

    If they insist, then profit is not their motivation, that would suggest they are state-backed.

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