The NES Classic is a $60 Single Board Computer Running Linux 121
"Nintendo's accurate NES emulator apparently needs no less than a quad-core CPU," joked Ars Technica. "The next step, of course, is unscrewing of the nostalgic little box to see how it ticks -- and whether its limited functionality might ever be expanded, either officially or by hackers." Slashdot reader romiz summarizes what's inside Nintendo's new miniature emulator for classic games:
With a quad-core ARM Cortex-A7, 256 MB of RAM, and 512 MB of NAND Flash, it is typical of the hardware found in Linux single board computers, like the Raspberry Pi 2. Surprisingly for Nintendo, there does not seem to be any custom components in it, and it looks like it even does run Linux. [YouTube video] The GPL license for the kernel and many other open source components is visible in the legal information screen. The source, however, is not yet available on Nintendo's open source page.
But it is the re-edition a 1980s video console: there is no network access, no hardware expansion port, and the 30 games cannot be changed. Changing the system running on it will probably be difficult.
But it is the re-edition a 1980s video console: there is no network access, no hardware expansion port, and the 30 games cannot be changed. Changing the system running on it will probably be difficult.
Emulator (Score:5, Informative)
Apparently, it's not even a good emulator. [nesdev.com]
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. No Guardian Legend. Less space than a nomad. Lame.
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. No Guardian Legend. Less space than a nomad. Lame.
Thank you for that. Guardian Legend is a Legend and one of the best NES games imo.
Like the GeNESis Nomad? (Score:2)
Less space than a nomad.
That entirely depends on how big of an SD card you have plugged into the EverDrive [stoneagegamer.com] in your Sega Nomad [wikipedia.org].
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That entirely depends on how big of an SD card you have plugged into the EverDrive in your Sega Nomad.
Alas, the Nomad is also lame. I sold mine when I discovered that it wouldn't play Forgotten Worlds. DEAD TO ME
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I honestly have no idea who even has the rights to TGL these days- is it really IREM? I know that they don't shit on fans much though, because people keep trying to remake it. I know it wasn't the most popular game in the sense that it doesn't have a huge pop culture following, but seriously, we could definitely use more Miria. What a badass game that was, and holy moly the music was amazing.
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Considering that the sound emulation in an official Nintendo product is easily bested by 10 to 15-year-old emulators written by high schoolers and college students, it's pretty shameful, especially considering that the NES Classic Edition isn't even free. ;)
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It might not matter for everyone but it shows that they haven't bothered with getting the emulator accurate witch is a bit disappointing considering that they should know better than anyone how the hardware works.
What people were expecting from Nintendo was an ASIC implementation of the NES that would be 100% accurate and be preferable to emulators.
Instead they release an emulator that is worse than other emulators out there.
You get a better NES if you buy a Raspberry Pi and install another emulator on it.
I
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Yeah, a single-board ARM computer running Linux is pretty much the go-to solution these days for low cost and versatility. With software written specifically for it, rather than an emulator, it could easily play Gamecube or Wii games in HD. Going a little bit higher up the scale, an Nvidia Tegra K1 system will just about match an Xbox 360 or a PS4 in graphics capability, and costs very little.
Literally the only people who expected an actual new NES based on dedicated hardware are delusional neckbearded shut
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*PS3, not PS4.
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We didn't get that back in the day, why should people get it now?!
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> We didn't get that back in the day,
What? That was how it worked, you turned on the NES, pressed start, and started playing. No logging in, no update begging, no whining about a hard drive install, none of that shit. If it didn't work, you blew in the cartridge and tried again (and YES, you blew in the cartridge, whether or not it did shit). Then you were playing. It was a vastly superior user experience versus today.
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It was the cartridge blowing I was referring to as tongue-in-cheek humor.
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You get the urge to stomp a goomba, and you could have one under your shoes in twenty seconds. Now you have to make an appointment and sit in a waiting room.
It's a metaphorical waiting room, not a literal one, for those of you who can't keep up.
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The emulators on the Wii come close. Turn on Wii, bootMii goes to Homebrew Channel automatically, pick NES emulator, pick game, run.
You could even use SNES controllers if you have a SNES Gamecube adapter.
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Nintendo's in-house emulator may not be up to bsnes accuracy
"If it's not bsnes, it's just bs" aside, rumors on the Internets say it isn't even up to FCEUX accuracy. I'd hope it's at least more accurate than NESticle X, the last NESticle release before people started switching to LoopyNES.
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Don't listen to Internet rumors. It's fine, only the shut-in grognards are complaining.
Nintendo didn't set out to build the most accurate modern NES they could. They set out to build a reasonably-priced device that is easy and straightforward to use, hits the nostalgia buttons with its overall design, and can be plugged in to a modern TV and Just Work®.
Re: Emulator (Score:1)
Seriously, do you work for Nintendo or something? You are all up and down this thread complaining about "neckbeards" expecting Nintendo to release a quality product. The emulators written for free have better fucking quality. And why do you keep calling people neckbeards? Are you jealous of their knowledge on the subject? The fact that you will scoop up and buy whatever crap comes out, your mad at them for expecting quality? You sound like the fucking Nintendo PR machine. If you don't like neckbeards or gee
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Haha wow, I really hit you like a perfectly weighted and broken-in genuine Sanwa button ;-)
My point is that this is not a product aimed at the neckbeard grognards who overanalyze every little detail of everything. It's aimed at people who want to relive the NES days easily and with a nice GUI, easy to use savestates, all of that stuff. They don't want to mess around with a Raspberry Pi like the rest of us, they just want to plug and play. Apparently a lot of sadsacks can't accept that normal people don't ca
FPGA (Score:4, Informative)
If ever there was a product that should have been an FPGA this was it. People have already reverse engineered a large part of the NES and implemented it: https://danstrother.com/fpga-n... [danstrother.com]
Nintendo also has the advantage of knowing what they put in the original NES.
Did you know it hasn't been made since 2012? (Score:4, Funny)
"versus", not "verses". Verses are in poetry. PROTIP: Use "vs" from now on.
I guess if you want to say "verses", you should expect it to be followed by a...
...chorus of disapproval.
(puts on sunglasses)
YEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Re:FPGA (Score:5, Informative)
Um, why? Not only this was quite possibly much easier to implement on a Linux mini PC, it was also way cheaper.
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1) It brings nothing new to the table that RetroPi doesn't already have.
2) Software emulation isn't perfect.
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Except, you know, not having to read a bunch of manuals learning how to install Linux on it, the custom hardware and aesthetic, and also it's y'know, legal.
Both my grandmothers used to play a lot of NES. I could see either of them buying this to replay some of their favorite games - I can't fathom them trying to set up a Pi.
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Emulators are fully legal.
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Downloading ROM images from the Internet is copyright infringement in most notable* cases. Even if you own the cartridge, cartridge readers are illegal under anti-circumvention statutes in some countries.
* Freeware NES games made by hobbyists [pdroms.de] exist, but few if any been reviewed by multiple reliable sources.
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Tengen lost in the Federal Circuit (Atari Games v. Nintendo) because it defrauded the Copyright Office to get the 10NES source code. But Nintendo lost the other lockout-related lawsuits. And had Tengen not defrauded the Copyright Office, it probably would have won, per the reasoning of the subsequent (and post-DMCA) Lexmark v. Static Control Components.
Laws in other countries may vary.
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Neither is FPGA simulation. There is nothing a FPGA brings to the table, simulation-wise, that cannot be implemented with plain old software.
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Hardly a concern with the NES and its 2 Mhz system clock though.
Latency (Score:2)
There is nothing a FPGA brings to the table, simulation-wise, that cannot be implemented with plain old software.
I can think of one lack of latency. That's one of the advantages of the Hi-Def NES mod by Kevin Horton. Because its upscaler stores only 2 ms worth of the NES PPU's video output, latency can be one frame less than with the frame buffer used in almost every major video game platform since the Sega 32X. Even one frame can have a huge effect on the perceived responsiveness of twitchy games such as Punch-Out!!.
Re:FPGA (Score:5, Insightful)
If cost-per-unit were the binding constraint, Nintendo would presumably be best served by building their own, hopefully less eccentric, version of the NES-on-a-chip hardware that you find under a glob top in the assorted 'famiclone' consoles of the world; but doing that would both make doing the design relatively expensive; and be useless for any of their products that don't have the resulting hardware embedded.
Emulation is kind of an ugly, brute force, approach; but it gives Nintendo the flexibility to add 'NES' to just about anything powerful enough just by providing a copy of the software.
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I was speculative that FPGA implementation could not be done cheaply, as they come in a range or capabilities and costs... So I thought I'd have a look at what HDL source is available and what would be required to run them... without much googling you will find many people have already done this, this was the simplest i could find in terms of hardware (although not accurate or complete) https://danstrother.com/fpga-n... [danstrother.com]
It is difficult to gauge from these projects what a production cost would be, as they ar
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~£28, it would be interesting to know from someone experienced in this level of hardware how low the cost could be driven down by selecting an appropriate size FPGA based on the HDL and low frequencies those chips ran on the NES.
Check out the MIST FPGA https://github.com/mist-devel/... [github.com] and Zx-Uno http://zxuno.speccy.org/index_... [speccy.org] projects.
Both have an open-source NES core supporting many games (forks of the same original project). They are more expensive than the NES mini, the ZxUno at 70 euros (without case nor VGA adapter), and the MiST at 200 euros with a case [but bigger FPGA = supports more systems such as Atari and Amiga]. There are a couple of gotchas though: neither connects to carts (they could in theory, but the focus was
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So, one of these:
http://www.retrousb.com/produc... [retrousb.com]
3x the price of the Classic and you have to supply the controllers and games.
I'm considering buying both..
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What's so "badly designed" about retrousb.com, other than merely being out of fashion?
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That's a pretty perfect website, what's the issue? Does it not have enough tracking and javascript? You can always just handwrite your browsing habits on a postcard and mail it to google if you feel insecure.
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So they're currently violating the GPL? (Score:2, Insightful)
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Since you dont know how it works, then surely you being a bright intelligent person knew that you didnt.... which begs the question....
No.... That IS exactly how this works. If they are distributing binary copies of open source software then they MUST provide the source code for the components shipping in the product at the same time, by choosing and implementing one of the GPL's provided options for source code distribution.
There are a few different ways that they can accomplish it, But there's no
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https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0.en.html [gnu.org]
It's right there in section 3. Are you completely blind?
They have made no changes to the source code of the original OS being used.
The following from the GPL comes into play:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.
If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code.
They provide the very link required above on their OSS website.
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If they are distributing binary copies of open source software then they MUST provide the source code for the components shipping in the product at the same time
The GPL says nothing about "at the same time" you ignorant cultist twat.
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The GPL says nothing about "at the same time" you ignorant cultist twat.
Go back to school, you newbie 7-digit Slashdot-UID-holder.
See GPL (6) All allowed options of distribution require the source code or explicit offer for source code be conveyed simultaneously. There is no permissible delay between providing the code and offering the source allowed by the GPL, period.
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Honest question here, is it really accurate to put the period inside the quotation when what you're quoting isn't supposed to contain a period?
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In British English, it's common practice to put the full stop outside quotation marks when the full stop isn't quoted. Even in American English, technical writing tends to follow the same practice.
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For more format whining, tune in to my YYYYMMDD "self-organizing" rant.
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Not until someone *who owns one of these* requests the source code.
FALSE IF they don't utilize option (A) by accompanying the program with its source on the same distribution media as with the original program, and they they thus choose (B), then they must:
Offer under GPLv2 is to "any third party" (Score:5, Informative)
Not until someone *who owns one of these* requests the source code.
That's true for GPLv3, but GPLv2 is slightly different in that the offer for a copy of the source code must be valid for "any third party". From GPLv2 3b, with my emphasis:
And from GPLv3 6b, with my emphasis:
But I imagine that for GPLv2-or-later software, Nintendo is choosing the GPLv2 option because of the effect on Tivoization. The GPLv2 requires distribution of "the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable," but many believe this condition is substantially weaker than the "Installation Information" condition in its successor.
So if Nintendo turns you down for not possessing a copy of the object code, you can assume they're relying on GPLv3, and you can request Installation Information.
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The GPL has no clause that says the requirement to distribute source doesn't kick in until someone asks for the source code.
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The GPL has no clause that says the requirement to distribute source doesn't kick in until someone asks for the source code.
Yes, it does. Specifically, one of the options for source distribution is:
So if they offer to provide source to anyone who requests it, they're in compliance. They can even charge a fee, and they only have to provide source for three years -- that's probably three years fr
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Yes, it does. Specifically, one of the options for source distribution is:
False. This option requires including upfront documentation on how to get the source code, in the form of a written offer (which is open to anyone to exercise).
They can even charge a fee, and they only have to provide source for three years
False and False. They are only allowed to receive compensation for exactly their reasonable costs in physically conveying the source code, or $0 for source code distributed over the network
In Nintendo's Defense (Score:2)
Is it a safe bet to reason that Nintendo picked this hardware because of its mass availability in the supply chain?
I don't doubt that it is possible to make an NES with classic hardware today, but it looks like they went the easiest way to use whatever current teams they have already using off the shelf parts in a quick and dirty manner. Easy cash to be had on nostalgia.
Re:In Nintendo's Defense (Score:4, Interesting)
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Don't sit so close to the TV! (Score:2)
Ars measured the controller cords on this system as a mere 31 inches long... they were 90 inches long on the original US systems.
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp... [arstechnica.net]
Put it on the coffee table (Score:2)
If the short controller cords on this are like those on the original Famicom, Famicom AV, and Super Famicom, then perhaps the console is meant to sit on the coffee table or kotatsu with a long HDMI cord to the TV.
Retropi for muggles. (Score:2)
I've been building and giving away Retro-pi boxes for a few months now. I guess now those normal people not fortunate enough to collect nerd favors only get 30 games and are locked to the NES controller.
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The Buffalo Classic USB Gamepad (the SNES style) is one hell of a bargain. Dare I say it even better than the originals, certainly better than a 20yo SNES pad for sure.
I don't know about the OP, but I use a DIY arcade stick as my main controller. Most people played NES/SNES using gamepads, but the NES Advantage stick was a much better controller. I based the layout of my stick on the SNES Score Master arcade stick, which is much better than trying to translate the SNES layout directly to a stick, as you're
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What controllers did you end up going with?
I set them all up with the X-Box 360 wireless adapter. It works "out of the box" and with the exception of one person, the people I've given them to all already have wireless X-Box 360 controllers around the house so I didn't have to buy them.
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DIY arcade stick for my primary controller, suplemented with the Buffalo SNES clone pad and two Xbox 360 pads that I had already and use on my PC for GTA IV and such. I haven't had to have more than four controllers in use simultaneously yet, but I'll probably end up grabbing a few more Buffalo pads, since they're so inexpensive.
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What sort of encoder did you go with on your arcade stick?
I have a leftover ipac from an arcade build and had considered doing an upright with it, but am not sure if it will jive with the pi and I understand hacking a keyboard makes ghosting issues.
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I'm using an Ipac, it works great with no issues so far. It's simply a USB keyboard to the OS, so there should be no compatibility issues if a normal keyboard works.
If you don't want to go that route, I would recommend getting one of the Buffalo pads and soldering your connections to its PCB. It's as standard a USB gamepad as you can possibly find, I haven't had any issues with that either.
The biggest benefit of the Ipac is that it acts as a keyboard, so it'll work with games that don't have gamepad support
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Are you absolutely sure it's not the TV? Most modern TVs have non-trivial input lag due to image processing, so you have to switch it to game mode or something similar for gaming.
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I found input lag on the old pi b+ unacceptable. Its much better on the 2, and seems to be completely absent when running the pi 3 and the latest Retro-pi.
Modification (Score:2)
Changing the system running on it will probably be difficult.
Famous last words.
Or how about an esp32? (Score:2)
there is no network access, no hardware expansion port, and the 30 games cannot be changed.
If you can find one in stock, the ESP32 costs about $9 [adafruit.com], is the size of a quarter, and also runs a NES emulator [youtube.com] and has wifi and bluetooth and a lot more.
I'm (sorta) joking, especially as you'll need more hardware like a screen, controllers, etc. but the video is still pretty cool.
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They were also quite popular in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Bloc in general. Some of them worked pretty well, but there were of course some compatibility issues.