The World's Top-Selling Video Game Has a Cheating Problem (bloomberg.com) 191
China's Tencent Holdings is going after the cheaters and hackers that infest PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds as it prepares to bring the world's top-selling game to its home turf. From a report: Ahead of its official debut this year, the biggest gaming company on the planet has enlisted Chinese police to root out the underground rings that make and sell cheat software. It's helped law enforcement agents uncover at least 30 cases and arrest 120 people suspected of designing programs that confer unfair advantages from X-Ray vision (see-through walls) to auto-targeting (uncannily accurate snipers). Those convicted in the past have done jail time. Tencent and game developer Bluehole have a lot riding on cleaning things up for China, which accounted for more than half the game's 27 million users, according to online tracker Steam Spy. It's also the biggest source of cheat software, undermining a Battle Royale-style phenom that shattered gaming records in 2017 and surpassed best-sellers like Grand Theft Auto V. The proliferation of shenanigans threatens to drive away first-time users vital to its longer-term growth.
Poor Programming (Score:2)
Re:Poor Programming (Score:5, Insightful)
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Then it shouldn't be considered cheating to use whatever data the server sends you to build your view.
I used an obfuscator on my Minecraft server for a long time. It caused all sorts of problems, like coming around a corner and not getting a refresh. It also slowed the server down overall. But I had to do it, because so many people use X-ray, up until such time as the player base settled into the same six people and I was able to turn it back off.
If you don't have the CPU power to do checks, and you don't h
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Then it shouldn't be considered cheating to use whatever data the server sends you to build your view.
As long as the data is visible to the software of the company itself; thus, the data is not for others but its own software. If you read the data using your added on software or tools, you are a cheater.
Then you have no idea how multi-online players work? The problem is NOT CPU power. The bottle neck is your Internet. That is a part of reasons why the data is sent to client side for much faster rendering/action.
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Yes, the problem is latency. But the servers still need to stop sending everyone's location to every player, if they don't want that information exploited. If that means having to make a unique status packet for every player from the ground up, instead of attaching player specifics to a generic report, then so be it.
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But the servers still need to stop sending everyone's location to every player
You very often have to do that, just because you don't have line of sight with a player's body doesn't mean that player's position won't have an impact on the game. The local system needs to know players' positions and velocity for all manner of things from rendering reflections to positional audio. Even if you don't send the locations the the player effect the world in ways that allow you to determine their location - the art of gameplay is the human having to do that and not using software tools/hacks to
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The problem in reality is much simpler than that. PvP (what I like to call purse vs purse, think two people battering each other with their handbags who can spend the most), attracts arse holes. People who like to make other people miserable and for whom cheating is winning. Lets be real, most PvP gaming is about cheating, specifically selling cheats for real world dollars build in developer cheats, compete equally no, but this cheats, you know 20% at a time, 20% stronger, 20% tougher, 20% more powerful and
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My solution, too easy, PvE only, the arseholes tend to stay away... PvP as a gaming style will always be problematic...
True and true, but I think the high points of of PvP can be as good as it's lows, and it's your choice to focus on one or the other. Live players can and will do things that are more interesting and often times fun than an AI opponent. Even really good AI imparts a feeling of puppet strings being attached, and when you feel the AI puppeteer in your game it changes the experience... too easy? ...too hard? ...too scripted or contrived? ...too predictable? When you play against or with a human those nagging qu
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Then it shouldn't be considered cheating to use whatever data the server sends you to build your view.
And this attitude of "if you sent it to me i can do whatever i want with it" is why software is moving away from running on users' machines and onto the cloud.
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If that is the only way that the rules of the game can be enforced, then that is how it needs to be done. You can't trust the client.
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Then where is the line?
Is it cheating to use macros to automate repetitive tasks that are little more than pushing buttons in the right order? Or to use macros to spam a low-cost attack as a form of suppression fire? I have hardware that can do that. Are my 18 button mouse, Nostromo controller, and Cherry programmable keyboard now cheats?
I have a few macros specifically for Minecraft. One switches to the bow and draws it back until it is released, consolidating two button presses into one. When released, th
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Drop me in a new situation with unwritten rules I haven't been around long enough to witness, and I'll have to ask because I can't just figure it out. It's just not one of my strengths to figure out the rules by context, I need them spelled out. That's not being a dick, it's being somewhat oblivious to social clues, and there are a substantial number of other people like me out there -- especially in geeky pursuits like gaming. This is why I spelled it out that dickish behavior would be pointed out before i
Re:Poor Programming (Score:5, Insightful)
By that logic, rearranging a couple of pieces on a chess board while your opponent steps away momentarily to grab a beer from the fridge shouldn't be considered cheating because you still had physical access to the board the whole time.
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Except the other player can take the game state at the time they stood up (a simple photo will do) and confirm it looks the same when they get back. They don't have this power in an online game -- they can't even stop the game by stepping away.
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Hiring someone with a photographic memory to take a test and then tell you what all the questions were sure sounds like cheating too, but it is exactly the business model for Mike Russ Financial Training Centers [mikeruss.org]. This is legal, they've been doing it for decades, and it works exceptionally well. Regurgitating canned answers when you've only learned a small set of them looks exactly like regurgitating canned answers when you have (attempted to) learn the entire book, and the latter is what everyone else is do
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How about if you check their cards in a poker match while they use the toilet?
No easy way for them to know you looked. And it's still cheating. And matches this situation perfectly.
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The dealer is there to watch for such activity. Also, walking away from the table folds your hand (unless you are all in). The game itself is set up to prevent other players from peeking at your cards -- but if you are picking them up so far your neighbors can see them, that's too bad for you. (I've been seated next to such a player. I told him what he was doing, once. After that, you bet your ass I looked at his cards when he kept doing it.) This is more like the dealer insisting on looking at everyone's c
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That an analogy breaks down when stretched in ways it was never intended to apply doesn't negate the fact that it still applies to your original line of logic. Nor does it negate the fact that it highlights the glaring flaws in your original logic.
As for your new line of reasoning, you seem to be suggesting that whether or not the cheating can be countered by your opponents has an impact on whether or not it was cheating in the first place. It doesn't. It's wholly irrelevant. That something is possible does
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My point is that ultimately, the server has no control over what is running on the client end. Even if they insist on scanning the client machine for cheats (which is perpetually taken to excess and I do not personally allow on my system because I don't trust them either, same reason I will not disable my ad blocker), there are ways around it with the use of a second machine controlling the client machine.
That something is possible means someone, somewhere, is likely to try it. If it works, they'll keep doi
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I get your point, but if you're playing with someone who can't remember where the pieces are then you sure shouldn't have to resort to cheating to win.
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Rearranging a couple of pieces on a chess board does not get the police after you, and this shouldn't either.
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By that logic, rearranging a couple of pieces on a chess board while your opponent steps away momentarily to grab a beer from the fridge shouldn't be considered cheating because you still had physical access to the board the whole time.
Drinking chess requires two timers, one for the turn, one for the pre turn drink. If any less than 1/6 of a standard European 35 cl beer is drunk, the drinker receives a time penalty on their turn.
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Both aim bots and xray are really old problems. Counter Strike solved them 15 years ago.
I don't remember Aim Bot anti-cheat very well, but the destination point (head) was given jitter so that your Aim Bot shook and you had a small but significant chance of missing.
XRay, the server only gives you the data of those that you could see. Additionally it determined if the bullet trajectory was valid based on point, direction, & velocity of initial firing. They ended up being able to have partially penetra
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Counter Strike solved them 15 years ago.....So the perfect anti-cheat... in game voting. This was very simple, since killed off people could observe live plays, people could initiate kick votes that kicked a player suspected of cheating. Of course good players got kicked too, but they were clearly playing against armatures and should have moved onto more competitive grounds.
CS never solved the cheating problem, but they at least implemented basic functions to weed out the laziest of all the cheaters (VAC, updates, etc.), then the in-game vote kick gave the players the power they needed to regulate themselves. Of course good legit players were/are kicked but they can go elsewhere for a game more suited to their skill level. While that might not be completely fair to good players, it was no less fair to them than allowing them to pub-stomp everyone else playing.
The article's legal mess is basically the company offloading their development costs onto society rather than hire people with brains to deal with the real world.
Agreed on this. P
Re:Poor Programming (Score:5, Insightful)
Visibilty testing server side is very straight forward it's not a hard problem. You just need basic representation of geometry via bounds and test for line intersection.
Well no, that's a naive oversimplification that won't actually work in the real game. You do have things like windows so you can't just do the bounds of geometry. You also have to consider environmental effects like reflections and fog/smoke. It also isn't just a simple test for line intersection, the player's positions are not just an infinitesimally small point in space, they have mass (and that varies significantly if they are in a vehicle or not). That's a significant load on the server to do this for all the players against all the other players.
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Windows would be part of the geometry. You know where they are.
Same goes for doors that are shut/open/blown off.
You don't have to do all of this at all times for all players. PUBG is particularly awful at basic server checks. Even just checking line of sight when firing or imposing a max distance on shots would be a huge improvement. Currently, a cheater can ride around in a buggy and one shot an entire server regardless of where they are. Behind a building? Dead. Behind a mountain? Dead.
Don't bring lat
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Windows would be part of the geometry. You know where they are. Same goes for doors that are shut/open/blown off.
Yes but it isn't a simple bounding box of the geometry, it's more complex as is the actual intersection testing itself, it's not a simple line test. As I mentioned in another post you have the environmental effects of the player that while they may be obstructed they may cast a shadow or be reflected and spotting these things is part of the skill of the game, as is the positional audio not just of footsteps and vehicle engines but of bullets whizzing by where you have both a graphical hook and an audio one
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PUBG is dogshit on every technical level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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And an example of the ridiculous kinds of hacks that Chinese players ruin everyone's games with: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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You are think of something like raycasting against mesh geometry. That's not how it's done.
Yes that's what I'm pointing out, but then what you go on to describe is not visibility testing, it's the way physics engines work which is much more coarse grained that what you need for visibility testing.
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But then in a 3d environment it's not necessarily point t
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You don't understand at all. The issue isn't about whether or not someone can see someone else.
The issue is whether or not the bullet fired from point A can hit the player at point B. You only need to verify this for each bullet that hits a player.
PUBG is on a whole other level with the bullshit. LOOK AT IT https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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The client does these calculations when it works out whether to show the other players on screen, no fundamental reason why the server can't do the same thing in parallel.
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The client does these calculations when it works out whether to show the other players on screen, no fundamental reason why the server can't do the same thing in parallel.
So how do you know to render a shadow or a reflection if you don't know what is casting the shadow or reflecting? In order to do that you need the player's location despite the fact that the player might be obstructed by something. Thus the hack can then immediately point out where that player is. And of course it is prohibitive to do all your rendering from every player's view on the server just to determine whether environmental effects have had an influence and that's before you even begin to consider th
Re:Poor Programming (Score:5, Informative)
Visibilty testing server side is very straight forward it's not a hard problem. You just need basic representation of geometry via bounds and test for line intersection.
That's not based on research, that's based on actually implementing it for real games.
This is so not even close to reality. See this Stack Exchange comment for an explanation https://gamedev.stackexchange.... [stackexchange.com]
Mod parent up (Score:2)
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You just need a list of rectangular hulls for viewer and objects. Some (map) compile time later, you are done. It is similar to the vis programs for walls currently.
Then the server just looks up where you are and where person is and send info on whether, and where, to draw them.
This is neither prohibitive in ram or runtime cpu. Searching for containment of point in a few hundred or thousand solid rectangles (don't need fine granularity) is almost instantaneous nowadays.
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You just need a list of rectangular hulls for viewer and objects. Some (map) compile time later, you are done. It is similar to the vis programs for walls currently.
Then the server just looks up where you are and where person is and send info on whether, and where, to draw them.
This is neither prohibitive in ram or runtime cpu. Searching for containment of point in a few hundred or thousand solid rectangles (don't need fine granularity) is almost instantaneous nowadays.
I get this is an old topic but I think you're ignoring the size and geometric complexity of PUBG maps and the player counts. It sounds like it would work better on older simpler games.
The solution also ignores games like Fortnite Battle Royale which include player-built structures or deformable terrain and ignores the difficulties with differing client latencies and popping into and out of view, how to handle audio for unseen enemies, etc.
It just sounds like a much bigger hassle than good match making and r
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Straight forward and easy does not automatically mean scalable, which is what you need for a server. Visibility computation isn't really that hard, but it's still far too time consuming in the general case to relegate to a system which has to serve dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of people simultaneously.
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A PUBG match has 100 players, and many die off in the first few minutes. It also only runs at about 10 Hz on the server.
Even if you only enforce checks 1 of the time (for performance considerations), you'd find a whole lot of cheaters you could deal with later.
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" The server should be able to figure out what my client can see "
Sure, it just has to raytrace the scene and account for everything from reflections in water, to mirrors, to fog, to construactable / destructable terrain elements. And partial occlusions -- you can't just project from my view point to their center of mass... what if I can just see their head? Nor can you project to their extents... maybe I can just see his knee while looking up from a basement window to him outside.
Then it also needs to cons
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You don't know how bad PUBG is. It's not a question of how a player saw you, it's a question of how their bullet traveled through 2 buildings and a mountain to find your skull.
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"No need to be that difficult."
Yeah, it does.
" If there is reasonable chance the client can see a particular player - send the coordinate"
see or hear
Which mostly reduces to are they within a box around the player, which is what they do.
"If you are sure the client can't see a player (solid wall "
lots of games have mirrors and reflective surfaces now. Behind a solid wall doesn't mean I can't see you. lots of games have positional audio -- if you are behind the wall, I might still know exactly where you are, b
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The problem here is that ping-times of many people are still way to bad for this. On the other hand, it seems the PUBG developers really made it especially easy for cheaters. Gross incompetence at work. There are certainly things that can be done, but they need more than cheapest-possible coders.
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I have never played TERA, but this is a nice confirmation. Thanks.
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I doubt the companies are going to be doing that as they would need vastly more servers to perform the computations.
I'll say... (Score:3)
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By the time he heard it the bullet should have already hit him. Unless you're using an arquebus.
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It has gotten a lot better since 1.0 came out. It is not perfect, but the kill cam has helped a lot. And BlueHole does seem to be doing a decent job of banning cheaters. They ban in waves though, so it might take a while.
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Thank God Americans don't hack :v
They probably don't - they're not good enough, being too busy with their Ethnicity and Race Studies classes [columbia.edu]
Hey, they do have to learn how to say, "Do you want fries with that?"
Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
Has Donald Trump been sent to prison?
Has he been convicted of anything?
Has he been put on trial for anything?
Has he been charged with anything?
Has any evidence for anything been put forward?
Have a bunchy of angry little shits bitched and moaned and hashtagged and faked news?
I don't support Trump, and I voted against him. But you fucking losers are pathetic! You're grasping at imaginary straws.
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That does absolutely nothing about US players using Chinese-made hacks.
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That's the scariest part... Maybe, those denouncing American KKKorporation$ for going after intellectual property violations with fines, ought to put things in perspective...
jail time? So doing something that the EULA = jail (Score:2)
jail time? So doing something that the EULA says you can't do = jail
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It's a fundamental problem with a legal system that cannot separate criminal law from civil law.
About time (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:About time (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously? On what grounds should a game cheater get thrown into jail... are they stealing your money or something?
I can understand why it would be irritating - but let's have some perspective here.
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On what grounds should a game cheater get thrown into jail... are they stealing your money or something?
You used you're money to pay for an experience, and the cheaters are now changing the expected experience. Also, cheaters may give the game a bad rap, which will reduce sales. So it would be altering the contents of the sale after the sale, and lost profits for the provider.
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On what grounds should a game cheater get thrown into jail... are they stealing your money or something?
It would be consistent with all the other completely stupid reasons why Americans jail their citizens.
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On what grounds should a game cheater get thrown into jail...
On the ground that they were game cheating ?
A country is still allowed to have its own law, for better or for worse.
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Stealing my money? Well, yes, actually they are. I paid to play a game with non-cheaters, playing as I play. Their cheating is destroying that expected, paid-for experience. Plus, I hate cheaters almost as much as I do Illinois Nazis.
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False start in a sprint? BOOM! Jail.
Offsides in Soccer? BOOM! Jail.
pass interference in football? Boom! Jail.
Think about real life sports, you break a rule in the game you get punished in the game, break too many you get kicked out, that's it beyond that anything that has ever happened is in the context of employment or racketeering.
Have you ever watched "Yugioh Abridged"? The main running gag is that the central plot element of this universe, the thing
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Thanks for your input, Kaiba. What's next from you? "Screw the rules, I have money."?
China has a law about this shit. This shit negatively impacts millions of people, is part of an illegal industry, negatively impacts businesses, etc. This is a tamer version of the US's CFAA, because China is using on people who are actually guilty.
Also (Score:1)
People should spend a night in jail for talking in a movie theater. Interrupting fun is downright criminal.
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It sounds like they just need a better algorithm to rank players. I don't care if I'm playing a bot or a human as long as we are near the same skill level.
Come up with a better ranking system and just group players by how well they play. Hell I'd watch a 'bot only' league
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When something like that happens, I just leave. Scum can be scum together with other scum but without my participation.
Old news (Score:3)
Bought it on release, got killed 3 times in 6 games by obvious cheaters (one suicide by clumsiness), asked for a steam refund, got it and that is it.
If they ever get the cheater problem under control, I may have a look again, but as it is this is just sadists against masochists. (No idea what else a cheater would get out of a game like this. It must become exceptionally boring to play as a cheater...). As I am neither, I am just not interested.
On a related note, how incompetent must the developers be to make it this easy for the cheaters? None of the cheats used is in any way innovative or new. Well, it seem the supply of sadists and masochists (and plain idiots) is large enough to make them a lot of money despite that.
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I waited a while before buying it, largely because of a number of poor reviews from folks complaining about cheaters. I finally dove in and bought a copy, since it was still one of the top rated and played games in the last part of 2017.
I can't say I was clearly/obviously affected by cheating players, but I DID get the overall sense that the developers are just kicking back and enjoying all the money rolling in, vs. putting a lot of work into continuing to improve the game. I mean, the fact that it's still
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It has improved. It is not perfect, but it is improving. I have been playing for a little over 30 days and I don't feel like I want quit. The kill cam has made it pretty easy to spot the cheaters, and BlueHole has been doing an okay job of banning them. I say okay because it takes a while. They seem to enforce the bans in waves.
The game needs something along the lines of a CS:GO style validated account, where players have to play for a large number of hours before they get access to servers dedicated t
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It seems a lot of folks here are missing the incentive piece. The loot crates they added have created the incentive to cheat, much like the gold farmers from WoW days. When you unlock a crate, you get an accessory item that can be sold or traded after 7 days. With a super popular market right now, I've seen some of the more rare items go for over $100. The winner of each match gets the bulk of the 'Battle Point' reward, as well as bonuses for each kill. You then in turn use those BP to buy crates. It still
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I did indeed miss that. Not that it matters much to me now, but it nicely explains the problem. How could they have been so stupid to not see what that would do? Or do the PUBG developers just do not care at all? I mean, their business seems to be going fine while a large faction of their customers are getting screwed over. Not that this business model is new in any way.
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Sounds like a conspiracy-theory to me. PUBG uses the Unreal 4 Engine. There are lots of people that know how to render something in this engine and there is lots of example code. They may have been able to just port existing cheat-code over.
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There was some game that did not ban cheaters, but put them on "cheater" servers. Do not remember what it was, but I like the idea.
The No#1 reason I left CS and CSGO (Score:4, Insightful)
Same story all over again. Those kiddos can't get enough of trolling and "cheap thrills" from no-effort gaming, while the rest of us who are actually honest player, rages to the brink of needing a psychologist over the fact that some trollers are gaming you (literally "gaming" you) till insanity. Too unhealthy, life is too short for that, there are so many other things to do. Cheating killed multiplayer.
However - when we feel like some multiplayer action - me and my friends run exclusively on private servers, because no one of us cheats, and we're not quick-fix instant-gratification teenagers anymore, so we like a good honest game and a lot of laughts. Playing on our private servers is a blast, because if someone actually makes it there, we know the history of the players, we know they're good, and everyone's struggle is real. Here you gotta work for your experience.
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Some kids just have too much time on their hands.
I play a perma-death game with a mostly public discord group where people chip in money for dungeon keys. However, you always get this dedicated group of tweens that make throwaway accounts to join the discord and group and spend the entire time making things difficult/trying to get people killed. Because that's apparently whats fun for them.
Sometimes I almost wish there was a system similar to S. Korea where essentially you have an SSID associated with your
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That's what we ended up doing for a decade or more. Our own private server. Anyone who wasn't fun got banned. Anyone who was fun was engaged with, treated with respect, and generally welcomed. We had plenty of children lose their minds with the first warning, and plenty of script kiddies spam and threaten us after they got banned.
Whatever. We were there to have fun, and it was our sandbox. Fuck off if you don't like it. Made online gaming sooooo much more fun than it ever was playing with the general public
What about consoles? (Score:2)
Are they inherently less prone to cheaters? If so then that is the real death knell for pc games as consoles get more powerful.
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Are they inherently less prone to cheaters?
Since it's a lot harder to mess with the software, yes they are.
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Are they inherently less prone to cheaters?
Since it's a lot harder to mess with the software, yes they are.
You don't have to mess with software. A lot of games these days use one of the players as host. Usually being host confers all kinds of advantages to that team. You can manipulate who the host is. The latest CoD (WW2) seems to give preference to people with shitty network connections, however. You can just stream netflix on a bunch of computers until you're down to 1 bar and then run around shooting everyone while they see you teleporting across the map. You can also modify saved game data to exploit
For cheating? A video game? (Score:2)
It's helped law enforcement agents uncover at least 30 cases and arrest 120 people suspected of designing programs that confer unfair advantages from X-Ray vision (see-through walls) to auto-targeting (uncannily accurate snipers). Those convicted in the past have done jail time.
Yeah, cheating in games does kinda ruin it for the fair players.. but ... JAIL TIME for cheating in a video game (or making cheat programs for others), really? That seems a bit extreme. The times we live in.
Bet that goes over really well in jails. "Whacha in for?" "Cheating to win a video game." Ouch.
China ; Commercial interests (Score:2)
1. It's China.
2. If cheating is a problem, Tencent won't be selling as many units as they would like. It would mean commercial problems, loss of revenue. They need to do whatever they can to maintain (or in this case: guarantee future) profits (and this being China, they can actually a lot).
So one guy in the giant multi-million corporation goes to talk to his neighbours' friend who happens to be a high ranking official. Some kick-backs are exchanged. New laws and policies are written.
Tencent guy sees it as
Pay (Score:3)
Can't pay-to-win if there are cheaters.
Or gamble on matches.
Let's face it, that's the main reason for the police getting involved.
100% game makers fault (Score:2)
Wait, what? (Score:2)
People who cheat in online games piss me off. They're first class jerks but why in the hell should it be a police matter?
Men with guns being sent to arrest people for making software to cheat at video games. Is no one else alarmed by this?
LK
Lovely lunch in the park (Score:4, Funny)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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Since China is preparing a "social score" system, they are just being consistent by this. Will be interesting to see whether they will be able to avoid full-blown fascism, but I somehow doubt it. Not that the rest of the world is doing much better in that regard at the moment.
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They are not doing that either. The problem here is your reading comprehension or choice of "news" outlet. They have arrested cheat _developers_ (i.e. ones that make cheats and sell them for money) not users, and that is a whole different thing.
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Gettin a blowjob ain't gay.
It is when you're blowing yourself.