Addicted To Losing: How Casino-Like Apps Have Drained People of Millions (nbcnews.com) 197
NBC News spoke to 21 people who said they were hooked on casino-style apps and had spent significant sums of money. The industry is almost entirely unregulated. From a report: Shellz, 37, a nurse from Houston, spends at least two hours a day with her husband playing a casino-style smartphone game called Jackpot Magic. The app offers a variety of typical casino games to play, including their favorite, called Reel Rivals, a game in which players accrue points by playing a virtual slot machine. As in a real casino, players exchange money for coins to bet. Unlike in a real casino, there is no way to win money back or earn a payout on coins. But that has not stopped Shellz and her husband from spending about $150,000 in the game in just two years. She asked to use her in-game username so her family does not find out how much money they have spent on the game. "We lie in bed next to each other, we have two tablets, two phones and a computer and all these apps spinning Reel Rivals at the same time," she said. "We normalize it with each other." Jackpot Magic is an app made by Big Fish Games of Seattle, one of the leaders in an industry of "free-to-play" social games into which some people have plowed thousands of dollars. Big Fish Games also operates a similar app, Big Fish Casino. Both are labeled as video games, which allows the company and others like it to skirt the tightly regulated U.S. gambling market. But unlike the gambling market, apps like Jackpot Magic and Big Fish Casino are under little oversight to determine whether they are fair or whether their business practices are predatory.
NBC News spoke to 21 people, including Shellz and her husband, who said they were hooked on the casino-style games and had spent significant sums of money. They described feelings of helplessness and wanting to quit but found themselves addicted to the games and tempted by the company's aggressive marketing tactics. Most of the 21 players wished to remain anonymous, as they were ashamed of their addictions and did not want their loved ones to find out about their behavior. A 42-year-old Pennsylvania woman said she felt saddened that she spent $40,000 on Big Fish Casino while working as an addiction counselor. "The whole time I was working as an addiction counselor, I was addicted to gambling and with no hope of winning any money back," she said. Big Fish Games did not make anyone available for an interview, nor did the company respond to detailed questions. The company has said in previous court filings that only a fraction of the game's players actually spend money. In a response to NBC News' inquiries, the company issued a statement saying its games are not gambling and should not be regulated as such.
NBC News spoke to 21 people, including Shellz and her husband, who said they were hooked on the casino-style games and had spent significant sums of money. They described feelings of helplessness and wanting to quit but found themselves addicted to the games and tempted by the company's aggressive marketing tactics. Most of the 21 players wished to remain anonymous, as they were ashamed of their addictions and did not want their loved ones to find out about their behavior. A 42-year-old Pennsylvania woman said she felt saddened that she spent $40,000 on Big Fish Casino while working as an addiction counselor. "The whole time I was working as an addiction counselor, I was addicted to gambling and with no hope of winning any money back," she said. Big Fish Games did not make anyone available for an interview, nor did the company respond to detailed questions. The company has said in previous court filings that only a fraction of the game's players actually spend money. In a response to NBC News' inquiries, the company issued a statement saying its games are not gambling and should not be regulated as such.
Fortnite (Score:5, Funny)
Is Fortnite on this list?
Again? (Score:3, Funny)
Next you'll tell us that half of us have an IQ of under 100?
Re: (Score:2)
Addiction is not related to IQ. A high one offers no protection.
Re: (Score:2)
Way more than half of us are a psychological mess. Luckily nearly all of us have coping mechanisms. Unluckily(heh!) for gamblers their coping mechanism is very expensive.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Intelligent people frequently do stupid things.
Re:Again? (Score:5, Interesting)
Addiction is not related to IQ. A high one offers no protection.
At least with nicotine addiction, you are wrong.
Link between cigarette smoking and IQ [memory-key.com]
Stupid people are more likely to be smokers.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Your linked article suggests a link between IQ and engaging in potentially addictive behavior, which is distinctly different from susceptibility to addiction. Being smart might help you avoid addictive things, but it won't protect you from actually becoming addicted once you're exposed to them.
Re: (Score:3)
I'm not sure the study being cited really teases that out. Not described in the article but included in the study ("Cognitive test scores in male adolescent cigarette smokers compared to nonsmokers: a populationbased study", Mark Weiser, et al. Addiction 2010 Feb 17;105(2):358-63. Epub 2009 Nov 17) were people who used to smoke and no longer do. Their IQ was closer to non-smokers than it was to active smokers.
So, it would suggest that either IQ not only protects you from smoking, but does actually also
All gadgets are addictive (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
This isn't a gadget addiction (Score:2)
You shouldn't dismiss this just because a smartphone is involved.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The most common way is people wasting their lives just staring at them accomplishing absolutely nothing.
Most of these people would have accomplished nothing even without any gadgets.
Question: Has productivity declined since smartphones were introduced?
Answer: No. Productivity has gone up.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'd love to see some research on this.
There are tonnes of data available.
Here is a visual chart [ourworldindata.org].
Since the introduction of the first smartphones in 2007, productivity has increased everywhere and has increased at about the same rate as in the pre-smartphone era.
Except in Portugal. The Portuguese need to get off their phones and get back to work.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The rate of productivity in the US clearly started slowing in 2010. That looks pretty suspicious to me.
You are cherry-picking. Smartphones were a worldwide phenomenon. Productivity continued to increase everywhere*. In some countries, the slope increased slightly, in others it decreased slightly. But mostly the upward slope stayed about the same.
Picking one datapoint out of the crowd and saying "Ah-Ha! Gotcha!" is not meaningful. The rate of increase in American productivity did indeed decrease. Most likely that was for reasons unrelated to smartphones. For instance, 2010 was when Obama's big stimulu
Re: (Score:2)
Cultures differ from country to country.
Re:All gadgets are addictive (Score:4, Informative)
Cultures differ from country to country.
They do indeed. But perhaps not in the way you think.
When I ride BART to SF, half the passengers will have their noses in their cellphones.
When I use public transit in Shanghai, Tokyo, or Manila, it is over 90%.
If you think Americans are more addicted to their smartphones than the rest of the world, you are misinformed.
Re: (Score:2)
In a lot of ways it's similar to complaints that people just zoned out and watched TV in the 80s or just listened to the radio all the time in the 40s. Addiction to gadgets is not, in and of itself, particularly new or worrying. Having the gadget with you wherever you go and it constantly begging for your attention... That part is new and causing some new problems.
Also, don't be so sure that if you took the gadgets away these people would accomplish anything. People are still accomplishing things despit
Re: (Score:3)
Soo, freedom or nanny-state? (Score:2)
Historically, the second has always gone down the drains pretty fast, so it is decidedly a bad idea. Freedom does very much include the possibility to hurt yourself.
I do get that addiction is harsh, but making the while world save for people with the tendency is not possible and trying to does far worse damage. Better to offer support and treatment to those affected.
Balance the two (Score:3)
The real world is more complex. Yes, you can't make the whole world safe, but you can make it safer. Loot boxes and gambling mechanics in video games should be regulated the same way Las Vegas is regulated. Probably more so. Las Vegas has an incentive to control ga
Re: (Score:2)
Apple. Google. both to blame. (Score:5, Interesting)
On another slant, I know addiction is a thing - but to spend that much, shouldn't some sort of alert be triggered either by Apple/Google/Their Bank/Credit Card? This tells me those addicts had that money to lose, I guess that is just too bad.
Re:Apple. Google. both to blame. (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? This is no different than a casino which allows you to spend as much money as you want throughout the year. So long as you can pay, they let you play.
For those addicted to casinos, there is self-reporting, where you file with the gaming commission a form attesting you should not be allowed in any casino. This can also include online gambling in those states where it's legal.
You're an adult. Act like one. Or have we suddenly abandoned the whole, "It's my body and I'll do whatever drugs I want!" attitude?
Re: (Score:2)
Unfortunately, as you can see by current events, illustrated in VIVID detail by all the various movements on social medial and TV, Personal Responsibility has gone right out the window.
Everyone is now a victim.
Hell...it was thrown out the window fully I guess bout 10+ years ago at least?
Kids these days (Score:4, Insightful)
"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
— sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in 1274
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless
beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and
impatient of restraint."
— Hesiod, Eighth Century B.C.
Re: (Score:3)
Unfortunately human nature is still human nature, even in our "advanced" society.
Otherwise we wouldn't have millions of iZombies, smokers, sex addicts etc.
Surprisingly few people would not be killed by the Gom Jabbar.
Addiction isn't a choice it's a disease. (Score:4, Insightful)
Speaking as someone whose best friend was in and out of rehab for years and died before their 40th birthday. I've also seen it destroy many families. Gambling is as much an addiction as alcoholism and other things. Just snap out of it and be an adult is some cold hearted libertarian bullshit that shows a lack of understanding of the psychology and physiology.
Re: (Score:2)
To add to the above [pa.gov]. Note that this is not only gambling in casinos, but from online gambling, video game terminals (which are different than slot machines) and fantasy sports gambling.
Las Vegas has had self-exclusion reporting [lasvegassun.com] for well over a decade.
As for how well it works, an article from last year [lasvegasadvisor.com] gives a taste of its effectiveness [lasvegasadvisor.com].
Apple and Google and (Score:2)
Credit card companies, and banks, and the federal reserve, and ISPs, and ARM for making the ISA the chips the iPhones run on, and the person who invented the slot machine. Every else is to blame for someone spending too much money on imaginary casino games.
Re: (Score:3)
There should be a hard limit on in-app purchases within a yearly period. I am sure Apple took their 30 percent of the $150,000.
No.. That's not a sane idea... Many in-app purchases can be purposeful such as business applications that may require the purchase of user seat licenses at considerable cost per license. How about fix instead the policy allowing apps which charge a per-play fee or which provide as a purchase in-game items or in-game currency that can be "lost", "surrendered", or "placed at ri
Nobody does in app purchases for that (Score:2)
not quite sure i understand (Score:4, Interesting)
So they know there are zero payouts, they spend money so they can get more spins and whatnot just to win virtual, worthless currency - and they know this. Am I getting this right? An addiction for a chance of knowingly 'winning' absolutely no real money?
Re: (Score:2)
Addiction by its very nature is irrational.
Re:not quite sure i understand (Score:4, Insightful)
Addiction by its very nature is irrational.
Very much so. While the rationality of the average person is nothing to write home about, most addicts realize that they have a problem, but they cannot help themselves. If all it took was a rational insight, this would not be much of a problem.
Re:not quite sure i understand (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Spending $150,000 on an app in the space of two years is likely to have consequences for your physical wellbeing down the road, unless you are quite wealthy and can easily afford this (which most of these app addicts can not).
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
One Way to Think of Addiction (Score:2)
One way to think of addiction is: Short Term Gratification, Long Term Destruction.
For some people the instant gratification of drugs, alcohol, tobacco or gambling overwhelms the knowledge of the destructive nature. They know that they are destroying themselves, but NEED to have that "fix."
If you have never had to deal with that, be grateful. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean that it isn't real.
Who da think (Score:2)
A Sign of the times? (Score:4, Interesting)
I remember when reading The Valachi Papers that Joe Valachi, the first gangster and 'made man' to talk, commented that people gambled on the numbers racket more during hard times, during the depression for example. I wonder if nowadays more people are turning to these gambling apps because of the quarantine and general low morale we're going through.
What was the point of the post? (Score:2)
Is the point that they should provide resources to help addicted gamers?
Is the point to bring attention to addictive games?
Why should any company who makes one of these games answer questions about it? There companies job is to make games that drive profit, and if they can do that while offering very little in return then that's every better. It doesn't matter if the game is slots or helicopter, people will still become addicted and people will sti
This is worse because Casinos are physical (Score:2)
These companies can operate overseas or out of a PO Box in whatever jurisdiction has the least restrictive laws and most pliable politicians. They don't care about their long
Re: (Score:2)
Ethics (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe the ethical way for a company to handle this is to require proof of assets and income and not allow you to exceed, I dunno, say 10% of your reported assets/income on gambling .. and only allow you to play at all if your income is above $15K a year.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
This has to be the dumbest idea ever. I hate that I have to send my personal financial information to the government every year... Now you want me to send it to a bunch of APP companies with dubious security - oh and a reason to sell that information to each other AND anyone else that asks.
Did you even think before you typed
Re: (Score:2)
Well, if you're a gambler risks is your thing...
Anyway, maybe a credit reporting agency can handle the proofing .. they already pretty much have this info. A gambler would just have to authorize the credit company to release their allowed limit. And they can make it such that you should be able to set the upper bound on what that limit is. So if you're a billionaire your limit can still be a $1000 a month .. the app company would have no idea you're a billionaire .. only that your allowable limit per month
Re: (Score:2)
We need two currencies: Cash as it is now, and Freedom Bucks. Your paycheck is required to put the minimal amount to exceed your debt for the month plus basic expenses into your Cash account, and the rest goes into your Freedom Bucks account.
Disallow accepting Cash accounts for gaming, entertainment, gambling etc. They can only take Freedom Bucks.
Hey I'm out of Freedom Bucks ?!?!?!?!?! Oh well. Maybe next we
Re: (Score:2)
Far too easy to game that system and for people to fall through the cracks. Besides, the app makers are already vehemently denying that what they are doing can be considered gambling.
The tricky part is that the traditional solution would be to tax the income from the apps and use that tax to fund treatment programs for those who feel they have lost control and want help. But classifying which apps need to be taxed and managing to actually collect that tax reliably in an online environment is problematic.
Limits to responsibility (Score:4, Insightful)
People should put a number on how far things are allowed to slide before intervening instead of tough posturing and telling the losers to man up.
That is a compromise. If food is made more addictive so that a high percentage of people becomes fat then it's time to intervene. What number would you consider alarming?
If too many people die from guns it is time to intervene. How many?
If gambling designers and food designers become better at exploiting the weaknesses of people and the damage of gambling goes up then at some point it is time to intervene.
If propaganda becomes so powerful that it controls to a large extent what people think then you should intervene.
How extreme does inequality have to be before you concluding that there is more to it than blaming the losers?
Sounds like a personal problem. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Do we outlaw speeding because a few people drive at unsafe speeds?
Re: (Score:3)
Only a Fraction? (Score:2)
Class action (Score:2)
There's a class action settlement against the owner of the game, and the players might be receiving up to 10% of their payments refunded to them. They should give them the option to refund the amount in in-game tokens.
Cynic (Score:3)
For well over 30 years, home shopping style cable channels have been draining retirees of their life savings by pretending to be their friend. All that did was engender donations to politicians. As will this. Expect little change beyond a warning.
If not these games, it would be something else. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
A fool and his/her money will soon be parted [joebiden.com]
FTFY.
and now they have real money sports book apps! (Score:2)
and now they have real money sports book apps!
Slashdot? (Score:2)
> addicted to losing
They are talking about slashdot itself, right?
Free Software Foundation (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Idiots (Score:2)
The same idiots who ruled this to be gambling (it isn't) must be the same idiots who ruled that DraftKings isn't gambling (it is).
Re: (Score:2)
You do not get how this works. Get an addiction yourself or observe it in a person close to you to get an actual understanding.
Re: (Score:2)
First, addiction is not about being stupid. It is not even about being weak.
But yes, I have been wondering myself what they want. Besides the usual clickbait "the world is bad" thing. Maybe they actually want only the clickbait effect?
Re:Your lack of self-control... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
but fall outside the current regulatory framework.
Do they, though? Just because items earned in game may be virtual does not mean they are not something of value. Not terribly long ago there was a $155 Million [geekwire.com] settlement against Big Fish games that the federal appears court confirmed to be violation of Washington State's gambling laws.
The suit argued that Big Fish violated Washington state law governing online gambling because chips used in its “freemium” game Big Fish Casino rep
Re: (Score:2)
First, addiction is not about being stupid. It is not even about being weak.
Not always. But usually, it is both.
I am not a heroin addict because I have never tried heroin. I have never smoked a cigarette. I am not an alcoholic because I don't drink. I have been to a casino, but only for the buffet.
I avoid potentially addictive behavior because I am not stupid.
Maybe they actually want only the clickbait effect?
They profit from clicks, so that is a reasonable presumption.
But there is nothing wrong with the media reporting a problem without proposing a solution.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not sure NBC wants anything to happen. They are just reporting on something that they feel newsworthy. But any sane person that doesn't have a stake in the casino-like app company would want to see such apps regulated, just like other industries that benefit from addiction are regulated.
I do not have an addictive personality, but I have suffered due to loved ones' inability to self-regulate. Hell, I've been harmed by unconnected individuals' lack of self-regulation. I can support regulation of industr
Re: (Score:2)
The app offers a variety of typical casino games to play, including their favorite, called Reel Rivals, a game in which players accrue points by playing a virtual slot machine. As in a real casino, players exchange money for coins to bet. Unlike in a real casino, there is no way to win money back or earn a payout on coins.
WTF?
So you send them money, you play, game over.
Is this different from any other gaming platform for which you pay to play?
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Wonder how big that effect is with games like Candy Crunch. Free to play, but you can buy extra moves.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly the same.
Same shitbar, different wrapper. Carefully dopamine-tweaked pseudo-gambling simulacrum.
Re: Your lack of self-control... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
These folks sound like financial masochists. Of you are going to literally flush money down the toilet, you might as well open a robinhood trading account and gamble on options.
Are you crazy? They might actually make some money that way.
Re:Your lack of self-control... (Score:4, Insightful)
Think of a society where it is acceptable to exploit the weak. Is that what we all want to live in, or should we put some restrictions (laws) on what amoral people can do?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
In the short run, it is better to protect the weak.
In the long run, it is better to weed out the weak before they breed.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You already live in that world.
Too bad it's your problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Is not worthy of a headline, nor a news article. It is only worthy of ridicule.
So here's the thing. One person's mistakes rarely affect them alone. So sure...you're immune to be suckered...what about your aging parents? What about that relative with a large retirement account and early onset Alzheimer's? OK, so since you're smug, you're probably either have an extremely small family and circle of friends or are in denial.
Are you a landlord?...or do you do business with people who rent apartments?...hope your tenants don't do anything stupid. Missed rent checks and collection agencies are not cheap. Does your line of work sell things to people? Those who blow every cent they have on electronic dopamine stimulation don't have money to pay you for your goods and services.
Do you have a retirement account? Whomever you're investing in is losing out on paying customers when they declare bankruptcy for spending their life savings on an online jackpot game.
Finally, what's the probability this person lives alone? Chances are they have kids they're not taking care of or their parents are having to use their retirement accounts to help them pay rent.
I am thankful I am not an addict, but I have a few in the family. I'm not even directly financially impacted, but I know their kids are impacted immensely. I know their elderly parents are impacted financially. I know that the state is impacted in paying for their welfare and social services for their kids I know the addict's employer is impacted.
Addiction and extreme OCD like gambling addiction impact society. We do need to regulate it. It adds no value and has potential to really destroy the mentally unwell...which impacts us all. There's no punishment too severe for whomever operates these sights and targets people with mental illness. They provide no value to society and lots of tangible harm. We'd all be better off if they were wiped from the face of the planet, or at the very least....regulated to minimize harm.
Like it or not, the economy is an ecosystem and the decisions of those around you impact you...at least they do when you invest in the market, pay taxes, or have a job that provides value to society.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: Your lack of self-control... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Your lack of self-control... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
It's a bit different from other DLC, in that the only way to keep playing the game is to put money in. Like all Casinos, the odds are slightly in favor of the house, so eventually you will run out of chips. If you want to keep playing, you have to use real money to buy more.
Most games that implement DLC won't shut off the game if you don't buy it. You can buy gear for your character or additional content to explore, but you can typically keep playing the original content as without buying anything. Imagine
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not sure about the specific game, but I read an article about a similar ones where telemarketers would call frequent flyers to encourage them to buy large amounts of in-game currency, or call people who had not been online recently with special "offers" to get them to come back.
Re: (Score:2)
It's the sort of loophole used for carnival games. You aren't gambling, you're paying to throw a ball at some milk bottles. If you knock them over you get a stuffed animal. The dopamine hit that some people get over the thought of winning an object (virtual or otherwise) has a lot of parallels to gambling. Even though what you win isn't money.
Ultimately if the player values an animation of a chest popping open and some coins and gems flying into their status bar, then it's psychologically equivalent to winn
Re: (Score:2)
Even there you are getting something real.
Philosophers have considered the difference reality and the imaginary for a thousand years. For psychologists the matter is settled, there is no difference.
In this game, you doin't even get anything you could transfer,
I don't think those sawdust filled monstrosities from the carnival are terribly transferable either. I view the liquidity on a sliding scale, a Vegas casino pays you cash and is most liquid, a carnival gives you a piece of garbage that is nearly valueless, and a mobile app gives you something that is completely impossible to liquidate. The value to the p
Re: (Score:2)
How would you finance such a venture?