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System Shock 2 Retrospect...and Possible Followup? 257
Starsmore writes: "Gamespot has a retrospective on the 1999 cult classic System Shock 2, which normally isn't that big of a deal on it's own, although it's a nice read for those interested in some of the stories behind the production of System Shock 2. The biggest draw is that tucked at the end of the article (and shown below for those that don't want to RTFA), is this: 'But why even look back at System Shock 2 at this point? Because Irrational has been, and it plans to make a related announcement this Friday (tomorrow). The studio has decided that it wishes to further what it started in System Shock 2--to work on games that promote "emergent" gameplay--open-ended exploration that offers many choices and combinations of options to players. You'll see what we mean tomorrow. Be sure to come back then.' " Could this possibly mean a sequel to the System Shock franchise? Update: 10/09 22:30 EDT by C : As many of you suspected, Irrational is in the process of developing BioShock , a "spiritual successor" to the System Shock games. Here's hoping they can distill much of what made games like System Shock and Thief so successful, yet succeed at their aim of building a game with truly emergent gameplay.
Obvious answer (Score:5, Funny)
Wait until tomorrow and you will find out.
Re:Obvious answer (Score:2, Insightful)
I'll play TV while I wait it seems...
Agreed, should be more open-ended games (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a few out there if you look hard enough (Morrowind, for example), but most single player games just aren't very deep these days. Of course, to make a really open-ended game requires a LOT more testing, driving up the budget and especially the time to develop the game - and modern games already take a long time to develop. Most developers feel the extra effort isn't worth it in most cases, unfortunately.
Best single player game in existence... (Score:5, Insightful)
Emergent gameplay: Check
Open Ended Exploration: Check
Many combinations of options: Check
Good plot (Espescially considering current world trends): Check
All it needs now is a graphics/ai overhaul and it will be perfect (Someone want to start a doom3 total conversion?)
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to mention that the main character is bland (possibly partially a result of them designing the story around the main character being either male or female), the story is flat without depth in the characters, there's only one real twist to the story and it's not exactly that shocking, the "universal ammunition" system is garbage, character development was heavily dumbed down from the first game (in the first game, you had to carefully choose your development choices to optimize according to your play type, and you could never fully max out every stat. In DX:IW, you could max out every stat before the middle of the game, and if you didn't like your choices you could easily swap no less than three of them out and re-max them), character models look hideous and the overall interface was too far streamlined down to accomidate the X-Box, destroying much of what made Deus Ex fun in the first place.
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
Deus Ex was a revolutionary title. It had flaws in its mechanics, yes, but overall it was great gameplay mixed with a great story. Deus Ex: Invisible War was a complete disappointment, failing in every way to live up to its predecessor. It's one thing to try to improve upo
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
My least favorite change wasn't the universal ammo or the lack of inventory (though I do miss the micromanaging of the inventory). What I really miss the old weapon mod system. DX2 only lets you mod the weapon twice, and then you have to throw it out and start with a new gun. I hated that. I never got attache
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:3, Insightful)
All and all it was just an extremely dissapointing game. Part o
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
I also bought Deus Ex 2 the day it was released (for the Xbox). There were things that I didn't like, mainly the small levels, long load times, shortness of the game, easiness of the game, and buggy physics... but it was still a very fun game. I really enjoyed it. Do I like it as much as t
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
Yes, but that was probably an overcompensation for the horrible ammo supply in the first game.
In case you can't remember, you played a top-secret government super-agent, and yet you couldn't even convince your shadowy bosses to reload your 9mm pistol in between missions. Looting ammo from the numerous heavily-armed opponents didn't work, because they'd turn out to only have 3-4 bullets in their assault rifles.
That problem greatly reduced the flexibilty of ch
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
The worst example of this in the game are the throwing knives I think there are 2 or 3 sets of 4 in the whole game (And you cant remove them from people you kill with em)
Great thing about deus ex is that you dont need thousands of rounds of ammunition to play it. I have personally played through the game without firing a shot (and with harming only one person).
But the universa
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:3, Insightful)
I played a significant portion of the first game without firing a shot - although I wasn't exactly a pacifist.
It's all thanks to that gloriously deadly glowing blue sword thing I 'borrowed' in Hong Kong. Utterly brilliant for ambushes, and works against even the nastiest of foes. I'm hiding in a shadow, they walk p
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
You also have to adapt your weapon usage to the types of enemies you expect to encounter - if most of the guys on a "level" use assault rifles, then you're better off using one as well.
Personally, I first specialized on my pistol skill, because that's the most prevalent ammo type
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
Me, I blame the Democrats.
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:3, Informative)
Of course, if you do kill him, you're told that it's too late because the WTO already has the weapon plans, so even when
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
If they had released it as a game in it's own right, it would just have been just another mediocre game with little plot, no atmosphere, crap gameplay and teeny-tiny levels. It was pretending it was in some way related to Deus Ex which caused people to judge it more harshly.
OTOH, that's the only reason they sold any number of copies, so from a comemrcial POV they did the right thing. They sold a lot just based on the name before word got around it was a turk
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
It could do with some extra levels though. I recently replayed it and even though I took my time I still had it finished in no time.
Also, it would be tres cool if you could stick with UNATCO and work your way up in MJ12.
But it's indeed still one of the best single-players games out there, though my personal favorite is Morrowind.
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
The open gameplay also was not that open, if you stand infront of a door you in genera
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
If you want interesting people and stories, probably you should try Interactive Fiction text games rather than viedogames.
Re:Best single player game in existence... (Score:2)
Re:Agreed, should be more open-ended games (Score:2)
Re:Agreed, should be more open-ended games (Score:2)
I see what you are saying, but that's what makes a game like Morrowind so special. It DOES have a linear storyline, or a "main quest" sort of thing. The beauty of the game is that you can follow that main quest all the way through, without deviating much, and "win" the game (of course, you can still keep playing once you have done this), or you can put it on the back burner and do anything else that loo
The term "emergent" seems misapplied here (Score:2)
Traffic jams are an example - individual drivers usually take the most immediately advantageous action at any point in time. (Ride the bumper of the person in front of you, jam in to faster-moving traffic if a hole presents itself.) But the emergent result of the individual behavior is a traffic jam, something that none of the individuals involved
Reading the article for hidden meaning? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Reading the article for hidden meaning? (Score:2)
Re:Reading the article for hidden meaning? (Score:2)
That article was empty. It really seemed like an old artivle they puulled from the archives where they changed the intro and conclusion. Why did they end up talking about monkeys anyway? It has nothing to do with the real anouncement they wanted to make. Also, there is absolutly no date on the article. It might be normal on gamespot, but it's a serious flaw. Anyway, the article was just horribly bad. Can't believe I wasted time reading it.
For who want to play the game back and can't stand the low polygo
Additional speculation (Score:4, Interesting)
Hope there is a sequel (Score:3, Insightful)
If they announce a sequel I'll be a happy man indeed.
Wouldn't mind a remake... (Score:2)
Besides, technology has moved on. Now, imagine the Doom 3 engine used to run the System Shock 2 game. Wouldn't that be yummy?
Re:Wouldn't mind a remake... (Score:2)
Re:Wouldn't mind a remake... (Score:2)
How can you challenge a perfect, immortal being like me, puny hacker?
Yeah, that's it in a nutshell ;-)
Anyway, I'll give it a try. Thanks for the link!
Re:Hope there is a sequel (Score:2)
Don't talk to me about 'much more creepy!'
Re:Hope there is a sequel (Score:3, Funny)
Then i HAD to stop. Looked in every room in the house to make sure nothings there.
Re:Hope there is a sequel (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Hope there is a sequel (Score:2)
And changed your shorts. ;)
Re:Hope there is a sequel (Score:2)
I sure hope there's another... (Score:5, Interesting)
If only Clive and the System Shock crew could get together, I'd be afraid to turn lights off for the rest of my life.
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:5, Insightful)
I didn't play SS2 when it first come out. I tried the original SS looking for a Doom-clone and it didn't satisfy me, so i never bothered to look into the sequel. Besides it didn't ran that well on my computer back then.
Years later, with much better hardware i stumbled into a site that praised SS2 from top to bottom as the most underrated game ever. For some reason it stuck on me, and some days later i had a discussion with a friend who unconditionally loves the game, so i decided to give it a shot. When i found it on a bargain bin it went home with me.
A week later, i was so hooked my studies suffered. The game is, to this day, still the most atmospheric game i've played, and it sucked me in completely. It's tensefull, and creepy, and the "damn-that-made-me-jump-off-my-seat" moments just keep coming one after another (damn monkeys!). Doom 3 captured much of that atmosphere - and borrowed quite a lot from SS2, in fact; but the game itself wasn't anyware as good. Doom 3 is a shooter with a few jumpy moments, SS2 it's a suspense horror movie translated to the PC.
I enjoyed it inmensly. Graphics are dated, (through functional) but the gameplay are story are excellent and the sound, even by today standarts, is top notch - so much, playing it with headphones it's a must. By all means, if you're reading this and haven't tried it, do so.
Anyway, SS2, through it didn't sell well back when released it's to this day one of the most cherished games of all time. Unless they manage to fuck it up completely, System Shock 3 would sell like hot bread. I know i'm not the only one that would buy it in a heartbeat. Damn, i would even buy the original SS2 if they ported it to the Doom 3 engine. Twice.
cooperative play (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:2)
Absolutely. I can recall more than one occasion when my desk was covered with sweat (from my arms) after playing that game.
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:2)
Go reload the game. Add in System Shock Rebirth [wanadoo.fr] graphics mod. Now at least the creatures will be up to date graphics
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:5, Informative)
They have. The folks over at http://sshock2.com [sshock2.com] keep up to date on all the information. One of the upgrades is an increase in detail to the models of the AI figures. It's called Rebirth [wanadoo.fr]. I love it, it really gives an upgrade to the "ghosts" you see in the game who have pointy hands (anyone who's played SS2 knows what I'm talking about).
On the heels of Rebirth came the hi-res texture mod called SHTUP [ttlg.com] (pronounced shtoop).
There was also an upgrade to the cutscenes in the game, by a group called Wuggles Unlimited, but they seem to have disappeared (lack of hosting).
Look around, there are still fans of SS2 doing work with it!
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:2)
Be surprised no longer [wanadoo.fr] :-)
Re:I sure hope there's another... (Score:2)
Undying is easily my favorite single player game, and scared me quite well (Resident Evil series never caught me.) It can be picked up for $10 in a two pack with American McGee's Alice (mediocre... great atmosphere and characters, too many stupid jumping puzzles and annoying bosses).
Agreed with both you guys... (Score:2)
Dunno ... (Score:2)
Don't forget Thief (Score:3, Interesting)
I like open ended gameplay (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I like open ended gameplay (Score:2)
Hehe. UT 2004 drives me nuts with that. It has these huge outdoor maps, and when you fly to the edge of the map *ThUnk* you hit an invisible wall. Uhh thanks guys. I really wish they had done something like had the computer automatically turn the s
Re:I like open ended gameplay (Score:2)
Re:I like open ended gameplay (Score:2)
Re:I like open ended gameplay (Score:2)
The problem is that the core gameplay mechanics just sucked. Combat could be trivialized way too easily, and it was too easy to steal and sell things without reprecussion, even without having the skillset of a thief.
Also, dialog was not adequately changed in many instances to reflect your character's deeds... which is pretty lame, considering the fact that NPC dialog is pretty much the
Does EA own the License to System Shock still? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Does EA own the License to System Shock still? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Does EA own the License to System Shock still? (Score:3, Funny)
Now *that's* really _open_ ended.
Re:Does EA own the License to System Shock still? (Score:3, Interesting)
I enjoyed SS2 as much as every person who was lucky enough to give it a try, but after being alone on a haunted starship/base battling zombie monsters and malfunctioning security systems in SS2, Halo, Doom3, etc. I've had enough.
System Shock's style -- FINE. GREAT. Do something new with it! (it's not as if
Oh, this would be great. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh, this would be great. (Score:5, Interesting)
In System Shock 2 it took a long time before the crew was even aware of any problem, and once they were they had enough time to organize resistance (unlike Doom 3 where the entire thing is over in a few minutes, basically the time it takes you to walk from the comm. center to marine HQ). As a result you find many, varied logs, some from before the problems start, some from people getting suspicious, and some from those who actively fight back.
While it is rather hard to actually identify crew members in SS2, I often found myself wondering if the mutilated corpse in front of me was in fact that of one of the people who's logs I had been reading. The notion that I could still hear their voices while they were no longer around to speak added a poignant touch to the game.
Kick ass game (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Kick ass game (Score:2)
You'd think he would have gotten up the first time he shit his pants. This guy's not like the other children, class.
Please not DX:IW (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Please not DX:IW (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the current world political situation alsoinfluenced the game in a negative way. Look at it this way, if they released a game with a plot like the original now, they'd probably all be 'detained' indefinately. The second game completely lost the feel of the first even if you can look past the xbox crippled engine/design.
I imagine the current political situation is also why the movie project also got the axe. Nobody wants to be labeled a terrorist/antiamerican/nonrepublican anymore.
Re:Please not DX:IW (Score:2)
Yeah, a plot like that would really fly well today. It's funny, though, I've played through DX about a half-dozen times... and each time I play through it again, the closer to home some of the "shadow government" themes hit. Really, it's g
Re:Please not DX:IW (Score:2, Interesting)
And that was a good while before September 11, 2001...
Wow (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:On a side note.... (Score:2)
I loved that game. Awesome awesome technology, great gameplay, excellent interface, decent voice acting, good mission design.
I'd love to see an updated version/sequel.
The Many (Score:3, Funny)
The Many sings to us. Where is the love in your cold world of machines?
Quit your job. Join the many. Embrace the world of flesh.
...Ok, that was either an ad for porn or a sign that my job is in danger. Fucked either way.
Could it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Could this possibly be another example of Slashdot's new habit of trolling for comments by adding rethorical questions?
Demo with no guns... not *that* hard. (Score:3, Funny)
Well actually that doesn't sound very hard to me, given how much time I spent with a crowbar in that game and about two bullets left...
I did love it though, and hope they are working out a sequel!
Ah yes, the failings of memory... (Score:2)
Even the long sticks of metal you use to crush opponents were more original in System Shock!
Real announcement... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm waiting for a company to try and do something like that.
Misclassifying Shock 2? (Score:4, Interesting)
Emergent gameplay is defined as when rather than actions being scripted, the level of interaction with the environment is sufficient to allow the player options. Rather than "grab key, use on door", the player can also pick the lock, find a bomb, or find an alternate route around the door (DX, LaGaurdia Airport, using the metal crates to climb up to the window of the building leading to the hanger). These sorts of games require multiple parallel systems that usually aren't too complex, but annoying to get synced up. The "alternate route" option requires more complex level geometry, etc. If you're dealing with a globally emergent system, rather than a local one, you suddenly need to be able to track all the details going on, such as how many churches you have, and where there's more high res space.
Open ended gameplay is a lot easier, but frequently less useful. Why have a game if all you do is run back and forth killing stuff (FF* ignoring the full motion story, BBS door games where nobody else joins in, Diablo 2) and your level increases ad nauseum? Players only navel gaze so long, even though the EverCrack and Diablo 2 addicts are threatening to prove me wrong.
Morrowind is an example of a game with both emergence and open-ended gameplay gone horribly wrong, as others have mentioned. You can run around all you want, but you can seriously break the storyline if you wander too far, collect items within the Fence, or exterminate entire towns. It's also far too easy to wander off, get lost, and even get bored of the game. The alchemy system is a nice example of emergence, but is so broken to be insane. The enchanting and spellmaking systems, while fun, aren't all that balanced and even your strongest custom spells will look like wet firecrackers against God's Fire. Because of the massive cost of constant effects, you'll also never really keep your enchanted items after the first half of the game because they just can't cut it. The apalling weakness of scrolls is also degrading.
Deus Ex is an example of emergent gameplay and level design coming together to make a wonderful experience. Take Hell's Kitchen, the first time around, where you have at least 30 distinct ways to learn about the warehouse, approach and enter, destroy the generator, and exit to the helicopter. Your 'ware choices seriously affect how you play your character (even if skills make less difference, since there are fewer "real" choices), along with what sort of toys you drag along. The lack of scripting in many places actually improves the game, making it possible to walk out of many areas without ever engaging the enemy.
(flamebait) As for open-ended gameplay done right, we'll have to look at Tetris.
(/flamebait)
If not Tetris, then Fallout 2. You can plot your course almost however you choose - doing a line drive to San Fran to snag the power armor early, go through The Den and either become a slaver or get a five-fingered discount on equipment, become a boxer, wander around the wastes... the game is as open as you want it to be and lets you go whereever you want. The variations are too many to outline, but anyone that's treked past Klamath, through New Redding, and visited NCR knows just how loosely your path is written.
System Shock 2 had very little in these departments. The ability to hack or psi your way towards better gear was nice, but optional, and not terribly emergent -- it granted options, not other ways around. The "open ended" nature more meant farming monsters with a wrench (or energy weapon if the weapon degradation was low enough) -- no new ways around or reasons to hang around. Extra level space does not open endedness or emergence make.
As much as I respect Shock 2, I really feel that Shock 1 was superior for the gameplay, even if I am biased to the Skorpion. Both games have an awesome atmosphere, and were very well crafted. But the limits they pushed were with the story and the technology, not the gameplay.
Re:Misclassifying Shock 2? (Score:2, Interesting)
Open-ended-ness makes strong storytelling hard - mind you that I don't consider any of my favorite games SS1, SS2 or DX1 open-ended.
I see DX:IW much as a failed attempt to implement this idea with a storyline. For me, the "open" structure of the story made it seem weak - I didn't really relate to any of the characters and what they stood for
Re:Misclassifying Shock 2? (Score:3, Insightful)
I was under the impression that "emergent" gameplay is what you get when the tools you have are sufficiently generic to allow solutions the designers never even considered. You make it sound like if you have three pre-designed solutions, that would be emergent gameplay, but I don't think that is the case.
A great example of emergent gameplay is
Not sure that;'s fair, there were multipls paths (Score:2)
I concentrated on the hacking skill, harldy using weapons at all - I found that worked pretty well, especailly towards the end that was pretty useful. In my mind it was better balanced than most people think.
HOOOAH!!! (Score:4, Informative)
I was overjoyed when Thief 3 came out, especially after, quite sadly, Looking Glass closed their doors.
For those of you who have never played either the incredible Thief Series, or System Shock, you are in for a treat. Be aware that the graphics are sub-par, but the audio! Eric Brossius is FRIGHTENING. He is responsible for the audio in Both the Thief Series, and System Shock 2. They damn well better have him on board.
By the way, if you want better system shock 2 graphics, check into Rebirth:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/etienne.aubert/sshock/s
Its a mod that makes for better graphics.
Re:HOOOAH!!! (Score:2)
I am full of the glory of the Many! (Score:2, Informative)
I did these things and scared the hell out of myself when I actually came across the first hybrids/cyborgs. If you aren't scared in the slightest by these games, you aren't playing them correctly.
While waiting, check out SS2 graphics update (Score:5, Informative)
Unfortunately, it has kind of died (latest update in 2003...), but the downloadable Beta 1 works fine.
System what? (Score:2, Informative)
I'm tired of hearing this (Score:2)
And will we then be told that it will be released exclusively for XBox/PS2?
And will we then be told it will make best use of two analog sticks?
And will we then be told it will have a unified ammo system and generic instead of localised damage systems?
Please, please, please don't let them do to System
Some quotes, links, and facts from SS2... Co-op? (Score:3, Interesting)
"Step right into my trap, little hacker!"
"Look at you hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect immortal machine?"
"Welcome, to my DEATH MACHINE, interloper!!"
The rest of cool quotes can be found here: http://www.ttlg.com/ss1/archive/voice.htm [ttlg.com]
http://www.sshock2.com/ [sshock2.com] is still an awesome Web site. Don't forget its forum.
I never did get to play co-operative play with SS2. I heard it is pretty cool. Did anyone play it?
Re:Some quotes, links, and facts from SS2... Co-op (Score:2)
Heh, i think i've figured out, on some (possibly very deep) subconcious level, why we found SS2 so scary. Not only did Shodan say those things to us, she was a woman, and a babe [sshock2.com]. Those flashbacks are of your first date, or if you haven't had one, what your nightmares are about. It's all very Freudian.
(this post semi-serious).
Re:Some quotes, links, and facts from SS2... Co-op (Score:2)
I have, with one friend. It took a while to set up, since at least one of the two computers was crashing a bit more often than normal. Once it was working, the gameplay mechanics worked out well - items (and nanites) are not shared, but cyber modules, research and logs are shared amongst all players. That way, you can actually perform a team of specialists in that game.
In playing the game, I haven't really
i'll take a remake (Score:3, Interesting)
EEEEEEE! (Score:2)
How about Falcon 4-types? (Score:2)
Re:PLEASE DO NOT BUTCHER IT (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Excellent (Score:3, Funny)
I have chomping at the bit for a SS3 for many moons now.
Re:What about real life? (Score:2)
There is a lot of effort to make realistic looking graphics in games, but they are very, very far away from trying to emulate real life. Even open ended gameplay is not about emulating real life. Choice and combinatins are ofen min/maxing minigames to get effective characters.
The things people enjoy in games are often very different from real life. I love Burnout 3, but I wouldn't want to crash my car in real life. Obviously any fantasy or sci-fi setting is impossible. Real life rarely has a good narrativ
Re:What about real life? (Score:2, Insightful)
You could say the same thing about reading Moby Dick, seeing a production of Hamlet, or watching Friends instead of going out and interacting with real friends. We humans often find imitations of reality to be far more interesting than the real thing. Sometimes fiction is a lot more educational and emotionally satisfying
Re:axe (Score:2)
I think that you mean wrench. Or laser sabre. Or crystal shard. I don't remember any axes in the game.
Two very imporant questions. (Score:2)
1) What are you smoking?
2) Can I have some?
Re:Oh my old love (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699