Linux Games Come Of Age 135
Giant Space Hamster writes "I don't know if you've seen this already, but Gamespot has an extensive article on Linux gaming." Well-written and informative. Click it, baby.
You must realize that the computer has it in for you. The irrefutable proof of this is that the computer always does what you tell it to do.
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:1)
I dunno about the rest of you, but it takes my system around 30 seconds to boot up. (Including BIOS, LILO timeout, etc.) It would get VERY annoying to think "hmm - I'll play some Quake right now" and then reboot, wait for the BIOS to boot, check memory, then start booting the game's OS, then play the game. Same time waiting while the game is going down, and back to the system.
Besides, there are times when I'll be running Windows to do word processing (I wasn't thinking about Linux compatiblity when I bought my WinPrinter...), then I jump into a quick Counter-Strike game, then go back to actually doing work. If I had to reboot EVERY TIME I wanted to play a game, I would play games quite a lot less often.
(Unless it's Counter-Strike, which I've proven that I am quite willing to boot into Windows to play - but then again, when you're at college, have a LAN, and can often get 20 players (the max allowed) going at once, life is good... And I know Counter-Strike CAN work under WINE, but it's not really playable, IMHO.)
The bottom line is that it's annoying to have to reboot just to play a game. It's a lot nicer to just be able to jump into a game for a bit and then immediately return to your shell and continue doing whatever.
Re:3dfx and other Hardware issues are a problem (Score:5)
Are you sure you called the right number for Loki's tech support?
They have very good tech support, in my experience. Maybe you got a chump when you called, but that doesn't mean they're all like that.
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Re:we've come a long way, but further yet to go. (Score:2)
If you mean ANY piece of software, Windows hasn't arrived by that measurement. There are still plenty of software packages that have chosen alternate distribution channels. If you just mean the main stuff, I can walk into Fry's electronics and get it all; Several flavors of Linux, a couple of office suites, games, development tools....
You can't find a single Linux magazine there, however.
carlos
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:1)
Windows games are easy? (Score:1)
Bet your pardon? While I know this is true of some games, a great deal of Windows games are quite a chore to get working properly. This can involve digging around for compatible (sometimes beta) sound and video drivers, making sure you've got the correct version of DirectX installed, making sure you don't have weird interfering programs running in the background, configuring various 3D graphics parameters either from within the game or from an external app, and downloading subsequent patches that inevitably follow due to the proprietary, buggy development environment that Win32 is loved for.
It's not as bad as the days of MS-DOS games, but I know quite well that these kinds of problems are very frustrating for non-technical users. (Guess who gets asked to fix them!) It's a far cry from the plug and go simpicity of consoles.
This sort of ties in with my belief that Linux isn't actually harder to use than Windows, it's merely unfamiliar to those accustomed to Windows.
Generation is a state of mind. (Score:1)
Re:Linux as a Desktop (Score:1)
Huh?
The thing that first convinced me to open up my 286 was when I couldn't use my mouse and my BBS dialing software at the same time. The only reason I called BBS's was to play L.O.R.D. or any of the other games on them.
Getting Doom II to dial up my buddy so we could play some deathmatch is one of my favorite memories, was such a hassle trying to get that freakin thing to work! But man was it satisfying getting it going.
Point is, if not for gaming, I wouldn't know everything I do now.
And think about it, how many gamers DON'T know exactly what mobo/vidcard/soundcard/meg of ram/chipset they have on their PC?
Linux game company startups beware... (Score:2)
I wonder how many other game company startups are out there which make Linux games, that no one will ever hear about.
Anyway, if you are interested visit us at phantomefx.com. tuxgames.com is accepting pre-orders. A demo version is available on our website as well.
Jeremy Peterson
Lead Programmer, Phantom EFX
http://www.phantomefx.com
What About AOE? (Score:1)
Re:Not that hard (Score:2)
Re:Consider how the rest of the world views us (Score:2)
All my programmers are more productive on an OS that doesn't crash every time they make a mistake.
Using open libraries, I can pick up that geek market, which has extra cash and enough ethics to maybe not share my game with the neighborhood (since a bunch of them program for a living).
I can isolate OS bugs from game bugs -- less test time!
People who play my games don't like smacking into the blue screen, and I can't control the factors that cause it.
Hey, look! I got free hype!
Re:3dfx and other Hardware issues are a problem (Score:1)
They play games (Score:1)
Azerov
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:2)
Keep 'em coming! (Score:2)
I'm probably going to get a Matrox G400 for my next computer, in anticipation of future Linux games, so keep porting them, Loki, and we'll keep buying them.
Now if only I could get FF VII or VIII working, or Ultima IX...
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
Re:Not that hard (Score:3)
Usually on Windows games you don't even have to do what you showed. You drop the disc in and it starts going. Any 4 year old can do that. Granted, that makes for some really nasty security under Linux if you need to install something as root, but it would help matters a bit if you could do this. Hell, the Atari 2600, Sony Playstation, and all the other consoles do it. It just makes life easier for the folks who have no friggin' clue.
Re:would have been 1st (Score:1)
Which is lots of fun if you program and keep on GPFing your own programs - hmm, I guess I'd be the vendor. Now why the fsck doesn't this work?
What's all this about idiots and clueless users? (Score:2)
I'm really starting to hate people who think that if you're "smart" you shouldn't mind spending time on mundane things like setting up 3D. I can do it, I just think it's pointless! Give me back my hour I spent setting it up and let me use it to code something cool and make Linux better!
This is just what we need. (Score:4)
OpenAL Hardware Acceleration is the Missing Link (Score:3)
*** Proven iconoclast, aspiring epicurean ***
Vulgarity (Score:1)
I thought I'd buy a book on "open-source gaming," but it turned out to be one of them books on "open-snatch gaming". So much better, it was.
*Cash Short?* (Score:1)
When's the last time you saw a college student buying an operating system? About the last time you saw one purchasing mp3's off of Napster online? Hail Mary, are you off your rocker? Time to turn the computer off and open up the shades, silly boy!
Random thoughts on installers (Score:2)
I have a couple of beefs with install programs in general, though. One thing: it would suck to have to download the entire install program with every package you install. (This is the status quo for Windows, and one of the reasons we get used to *every* program being multi-megabyte, even simple programs like email clients.) I guess what this means is: we need a standard library to support gui-style installing complete with the usual handholding, so the same code doesn't have to be bound redundantly into every package. The package itself should just contain some nice tight script, preferably compiled into bytecodes or some such.
OK, while I'm getting warmed up to this topic, there really isn't any excuse for failing to compress these install packages. RPM's have some kind of compression, but it's hardly optimal (I just tried compressing a few rpms to verify that). Let's go for the gusto and rely on bzip2 being available - it zips *significantly* better than gzip and pkzip.
My biggest beef with the glitzy installs I've seen is that they *don't* use the RPM (or any other) database, and so you lose all the nice query capabilities you have, and they don't show up in any of the graphical package management utilities.
So who is going to be the first to hack up a nice installer that uses RPM (you'd have to do a DEB version as well to cover the bases) and hooks into some nice script engine like Python, and relies on GTK? Sure, it won't work on every system but it will work on *most* of them, and almost all the new ones. Who is going to be the one that builds the Linux installer that catches on?
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Re:This is just what we need. (Score:1)
Needs DIRECTX 6.1A! :( (Score:1)
Re:Consider how the rest of the world views us (Score:2)
1. There are only a handful of commercial games.
2. Those games are also available for Windows, so even if I decide to pick up Linux at Barnes & Noble I still have Windows around to play games with. Not sure why I would want to play the Linux version.
3. The freebie games are pretty horrendously unexciting. Yay! Hundreds of Tetris and Asteroids variants! Does Open Source somehow imply a lack of creativity?
4. All the nifty games like The Sims and FreeSpace 2 and Roller Coaster Tycoon aren't out for Linux.
But this is almost identical to the situation we saw when the PC took the games market away from the Apple II, and again when Windows took it away from Dos. Some people see a half-empty glass, some see it half-full. You're right, the situation is exactly as you describe it, but to me that's nothing but good news for Linux.
let's be honest about this. There are very few reasons to even consider using Linux for games...
Ah... I beg to differ. The big reason to use Linux for games is because you use it for everything else. Why should I waste disk space (not to mention letting myself in for all that aggravation and possible virus invasions) by having Windows on my system?
While I'm on the subject, by most accounts there are something like 10,000,000 Linux users already, and doubling every year. All well-educated, generally fun-loving, and generally possessing excellent earning power. That's a no-brainer as far as marketing goes.
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Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:1)
Creativity on Linux (Score:2)
This question begs for a six page answer - but briefly:
I think Open Source encourages creativity in programmers by making source code accessible and providing great tools for zero cost.
But creativity in programming and creativity in game design, artwork or sound work are completely different things.
Building a quality game by today's standards is an immensley challenging task requiring a pool of multi-discipline resources - not just a talented programmer. There are very few graphic artists and sonic artists using the Linux platform today because there isn't the attraction of great (cheap) tools for them.
There's also the issue of collaboration. There are now quite well established conventions (and tools) for a distributed team of programmers to work together - CVS, code commenting, etc. This infrastructure doesn't exist for graphic design, for example. As someone who's been the Art Director of a creative team I can tell you creative collaboration on a project is hard enough with your entire team in the same room!
Anyway, I've only covered the tip of the iceberg here - but hopefully the point is made.
Linux gaming is definitely getting better. (Score:1)
Given current realities, the disclosures are going to raise a flag over the customer/gaming/linux partnership. If you have any questions or concerns, http://www.gamespot.com can hardly help but to bite the proverbial bullet. Now that the merger is complete, the games are going to enable the multimedia based Linux distribution.
Re:Windows games are easy? (Score:2)
open al on linux games (Score:2)
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Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:1)
In my personal experience, if an RPM is built correctly, and installed with a simple "rpm -Uhv file.rpm", it will work just fine. Whenever an RPM hasn't worked "out of the box", the problem has always been in an error made by the RPM creator.
RPM is a great system, but like with any system, if someone doesn't set it up right, it isn't going to work right.
Re:3dfx and other Hardware issues are a problem (Score:1)
I agree 100%!  I've purchased four of their games now and I haven't been disappointed by the support in the least.  I've never tried their phone support, since their NNTP servers or Fenris were sufficient for me.
And when I called them asking about an OpenGL driver for Myth 2 (I have a TNT2), the guy said that he knew of a Glide wrapper for TNT2 cards and said he'd let me know. I gave him my email address, not really expecting a reply, and 2 days later he emailed me the URL for the Glide wrapper.
What is that URL?  I'd love to have that!
Re:Linux gaming is definitely getting better. (Score:1)
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wonder how long it will take (Score:2)
tcd004
Here's my Microsoft Parody [lostbrain.com], where's yours?
Sound wanted (Score:1)
I have an alter-ego at Red Dwarf. Don't remind me that coward.
good video card for linux? (Score:1)
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Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:2)
Re:Consider how the rest of the world views us (Score:2)
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:2)
Because RPM only knows about other software that was installed through RPM. If you use non-RPM methods to install *anything* that another package might depend on, you'll get dependancy errors later. RPM is optimal for systems where *all* the software is installed through RPM.
Re:games on linux (Score:2)
Re:Consider how the rest of the world views us (Score:1)
The last numbers that I saw for desktop OS's were as follows: (I think this was from IDC)
Total desktop computers worldwide: ~200 million.
That puts Linux at about 8 million users...
Re:Why do we need an OS for games? (Score:2)
Re:Random thoughts on installers (Score:1)
- Install Shield consists of setup.exe (~384k) plus a dll or two, less than half a meg.
- You can specify an internet location to update the library from in setup.ini. Below is a sample that likely has garbled syntax, as it's been a while.
This section in setup.ini would cause msdao15.dll to be downloaded and installed from the specified package if an up-to-date version were not available.
Re:What's all this about idiots and clueless users (Score:2)
I myself can't wait for the day when USB works perfectly. Right now I have a bunch of USB devices sitting here not being used. Why? Cause I have not been able to get the blasted USB backport to work. I will rejoice and dance around my back yard naked singing "Linus and Alan are Gods!" the day it works.
Why? Cause I hate doing "mundane things". That's why I use pico and not vi.
head in the sand (Score:1)
Too Many standards (Score:2)
The concept of building one program off another programs code is great, but then someone has to have both to run one, and the correct version level. I am not against choice, but if there is to be a greater movement towards linux and games some solid standards have to be created.
If all the distributions could have a commen set of core libs and maybe decide on an installation system that would be a start. I don't think installing in linux is open heart surgury, but it has on many occasions for me been a pain.
I wonder if the people who make install shield has conciderd making a installer for linux?...
Re:Not that hard (Score:1)
Windows 2000 machine at work, someone had said that this was a good gaming platform. My experience says definately not.
open source games (Score:2)
The real coming of age for linux on the game arena is probably not based on easy installation and configuration of the latest trend in game wizardry. Same goes for linux's coming of age as THE desktop platform requiring easier installation and configuration for office apps. For some reason linux lovers have deviated ourselves from the original path that took us where we are. blame it on CNN and IBM for liking us, but all the publicity and capital has made as much bad as it has made good.
why is linux good? hmm let's see:
it's rock solid, but so is solaris and AIX.
It's free? nah, that's the downside (otherwise it would have been popular 3 years ago)
It's the open source movement stupid!: Linux is great because people relate it to OSS. It's popular because of apache, sendmail, samba, gimp, slashcode, etc. But that has nothing to do with MS Office or running the latest windows game!!! (i'm I the only one that thinks this way?)
my frustration level has been steadily increasing with the latest versions of everything that's been done for linux: New, the latest and greatest database system, made to look exactly like oracle!! New and improved desktop environment, it even smells like a window!. I've been sneaking out of meetings, leaving work early, investing precious time in learning everything i can about everything related to developing open source stuff, but every time i feel more and more alone. I don't want an open source powerpoint or an open source oracle, I want open souce AI.I want an open source desktop environment using an open source 3d rendering engine designed for 3d accelerators complete with mouselook and strafe. I want open source search server software that would learn from queries and would spend all day gathering relevant informaiton for me. I want a simple open source word processor that talks html natively to my web server so that i can write letters directly to a url. I want an open source spreadsheet program that is really an interface to a postgreSQL database and presentas and manipulates relationships intuitively (using the open source 3d environment).
Games? well my point is it's not about doing what the others do. that's not what made linux great. it's about being innovative (copyright Microsoft, 1999). how great would a strategy or role playing game be if it was developed by the best players and hackers around on an open source environment? we're good at making new, innovative things, not at making carbon copies of other people's work. That's what's changed. was lotus123 on an IBM PC easy to use for the accountant upstairs? no! some sysadmins had to go around the office everyday turning computers on and running the programs so that people could use it, but they used it anyways. why? because it gave them something unique and valuable. what's so unique and valuable about kde or gnome? sure gnome is open source, but what does it do that you can't do on windows? re-configure everything? is that enough to turn people away from plug and play, ie, mediaplayer, directx and compatible(ubiquitous) file formats? didn't think so, so stop expecting gnome to make people switch from windows (i use both and i'm happy at it). I don't load my linux to do what i do on windows, otherwise i would do it on windows (which you end up having anyways). people install linux because it makes a heck of a server and is too fun to use. same people then go and install it on their home computers and laptops and expect it to do the same as other people's desktop. that's wrong! we need our own creative open way of doing things.
oh well, I better stop or i'll be the first
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XFree86 and Emulation (Score:2)
The difficult thing about making games (Score:3)
At the WorldForge [worldforge.org] project, a large MMORPG project with over 50 members, we have found that the biggest barrier to creating games with a competitive look and feel is creating the media. Getting coders is not too hard, though we are always on the lookout for new recruits, but finding talented artists, particularly animators, who have time to contribute to an Open Source project can be really tough.
All are hopes are currently pinned on blender [blender.nl] becoming Open Source this summer.Open Source games (Score:2)
I do have a suggestion for the XFree people in the matter of gaming. How about a windowing system that is non-networked but with many of the same function calls as the normal version of X so things don't have to be entirely rewritten. A speedy windoing system would go a really long way to making gaming on unix based system a viable prospect.
Re:Open Source games (Score:2)
Did you know Scott Adams (writes Dilbert) was a programmer? Yep - a hacker with creativity and artistic talent (note how every frame of a dilbert strip is drawn frmo a different angle). If there's one, there's probably more.
As for why people would do this, well, your post is probably a troll, but I'll answer anyway. Real artists aren't motivated by money - they're motivated by a desire to share whatever ideas, thoughts, or feelings they have. There will be artists interested in sharing their ideas and energies, just like there are programmers interested in sharing their ideas and energies.
We're working on a Free (Open Source) game at the Worldforge project (http://www.worldforge.org). Check us out, you might be surprised.
Finally, there is a popular Free video game. It's called Nethack, and it's been around for a while. Lots of people get enjoyment out of it every day, and it's *verY* creative.
-Dave Turner.
Re:Consider how the rest of the world views us (Score:2)
What is that supposed to mean? If a consumer makes an informed choice, is that "fixating"?
> 1. There are only a handful of commercial games.
This is not as big a deal as it might seem. I'm sure there are lots of game addicts that run out and buy a new game every Friday night, but not all of us operate that way. Actually, it turns my stomach to walk in to a CompUSA and see three aisles of games, of which 98% can be summarized as "five titles plus a myriad lookalike wannabes". I'd much rather have a handful of good games than a closet full of trash.
> 2.
I was a dual booter for my first year on Linux. Let me tell you, it gets old sitting through a reboot to Windows wondering "What kind of Winsanity (TM) is it going to suffer when it comes up this time?" Nothing spoils gaming night worse than spending a couple of hours of preciously hoarded game time trying to get Windows to remember that it still has the same hardware it had last time you used it.
> 3.
Perhaps it has in the past, at least to some extent. However, I think we're outgrowing it. For instance, the Freeciv developers are showing more and more interest in ditching strict Civ II compatibility and molding the game to their own notions of what a strategy game should be.
On the other hands, games like Xconq seem to be sui generis.
> 4.
If you own a computer solely for use as a game console, then sure, pick the OS [or console brand] that gives you the best gaming experience. If however you use your computer for lots of other things, you might naturally want to consider some of those other things when making your choice of OS, too.
> unless you've decided to hold fast to OS-centric views.
As with your "fixate" above, what the heck is that supposed to mean? My question about informed choice still arises.
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Re:Generation is a state of mind. (Score:1)
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Re:The difficult thing about making games (Score:2)
Which is really an odd thing, considering public perception of the demand for and value of IT skills vs artistic skills, right now. You don't see the US Congress authorizing temporary visas for 100K animators at a time, do you?
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Re:The difficult thing about making games (Score:3)
Which is really an odd thing, considering public perception of the demand for and value of IT skills vs artistic skills, right now. You don't see the US Congress authorizing temporary visas for 100K animators at a time, do you?
Well, no, not really. The place we get our members from is the Internet, not Real Life. Now, most people coming to WorldForge stumble onto it through slashdot, freshmeat, happy penguin, Linux Weekly News, etc. Quite obviously these are much more populated by coders than artists.
I'm sure there are masses of good artists out there, I'm just not quite sure how to reach them.
However I must say that we have been lucky. People like Uta Szymanek (who has contributed literally tons of media) were a large reason that we still survive today - and that I believe we will continue to strive towards our goals in the future.
That said, if there are any artists out there who are interested in contributing to something like this, whether with 2D, 3D or music, sound or any other kind of media, then please check us out! [worldforge.org].
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:1)
like back to the old 'i only have 640kb memory in dos, now i have to make a boot disk to run games' days???
anyway, arent we all looking to brag about prolonged uptimes???
==
It's bush league psyche-out stuff, man.
Laughable, man.
Re:good video card for linux? (Score:1)
Re:Keep 'em coming! (Score:1)
Oh. You must mean on a PC.
Seriously, they're more fun on the PlayStation, esp. VIII with a DualShock. Don't bother with the PC versions (esp. if you don't have one of the three supported video cards).
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:1)
I keep hoping myself (Score:2)
But the day when I can play Sim City 3K without 380M of ram is soon to come according to Loki. After that who knows what games I could be addicted to, all I know for sure is it will not be minesweeper.
Devil Ducky
Is linux really right for games? (Score:1)
Why do we need an OS for games? (Score:1)
Two years (Score:3)
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
Re:Linux as a Desktop (Score:1)
microwhining (Score:1)
You like Linux because its this nice OS OS with OS components that demystify (haha!) the parts of MS SW that don't work so well.
Now along come some people dedicated to making Linux mainstream. Guess what mainstream is? BSD? VMS? Solaris? Mac? Hmm... I think it has MS in it
Yes the Windows/Apple type UI badly needs innovation. But at least people are now working on a platform where innovation is still possible. Besdies, for an introduction to true innovation just turn your computer off (don't want it that badly do you?
What you should be afraid of is standardization. You should be afraid of people being the same. People will not develop herd enterntainment until there is a sufficient herd and a nice fence and some spectators.
Just like trolls won't graze on slashdot utill they have sufficient spectators.
Personally I like games, and that is the only reason I currently have a MSputer. I spend an enormous amount of money on games. The people who are driving the speed increases in computers are gamers (at least up to like 400 MhZ, I think) IMHO. What we need is a DirectX equivalent API, and HW compatibility with the equivalent API/OS. The what we need is for gaming companies to take the great leap forward into making less profit. Sure they'll have to work harder at the games because the users will be more anal, but hey! It'll be for less money and their eIP will be less protected. $50 bucks for a game? Pah!
Re:Linux as a Desktop (Score:1)
I hear lots of newbies always complaining that mouse control absolutely sucks in X. I've never had the problem, but you can adjust your mouse sensitivity and speed in the KDE Control Center (I think, I'm not a KDE fan) or changing some settings in XF86Setup usually fixes it. I agree about gaming being idiot-proof. Game installations should be quick and painless because the users who play the most games generally don't know the most about their systems. Setting up Quake 3 should not be on the same level as editing a text config file.
There shouldn't be ANY work to use your desktop. Everything should be still accessible by experts if they prefer to do it the tedious way too. Do linux developers believe that simple is evil or something? There is some SERIOUS UI attention needed in the desktop. I could care less about KExplorer if the UI is still crappy.
This is a good point. Joe Smith doesn't care if he's using Gnome or KDE or if he can get rid of all the annoying buttons in Netscape by editing his
But as a desktop, and a gaming platform Windows 2000 is superior.
To me, gaming and desktop are different. I use Linux on the desktop because it is superior in its speed, customization, and stability of which Windows has none of the three. The factors that determine a gaming platform are the availibility of games, performance, and the ease of installation. Windows has this advantage (well, maybe not in performance, but it's not too bad).
I figure Mandrake, Corel, Redhat, etc are leaning towards this route. Though they are becoming bloatware too.(i'm a slack lover)
The trend that I see with distros like Redhat and Corel is that they become more and more bloated with each new version. How many times have we seen newbies on IRC or in the newsgroups saying that Linux absolutely sucks because it is so slow? The people at fault for making them believe that is Redhat and the like, who by default on the desktop installation start Apache and many other servers that a desktop machine will never need. Another thing is KDE/Gnome have become such system resource hogs that they will make a Linux box run much slower than a Windows one. I know that KDE is supposed to be great for migrating Windows users, but it's still going to be different no matter how much they rip off the horrible Microsoft UI. Would it be traumatic for a new Linux user to see a Window Maker, IceWM, or Blackbox desktop when they first boot up? I'm in Blackbox as I type this on my P233 machine and it is performs better than my friends K6-400 with Gnome/E! We must stop bloating Linux and provide the tools that users will need on the desktop (hint: Apache isn't one of them).
-Antipop
Re:would have been 1st (Score:1)
Process halts
As does the summer
Soon comes snow
Once you EAX... (Score:1)
Quake III may look better on linux, but until I get EAX linux support for my Soundblaster live, I really don't see myself using it for gaming.
Re:Not that hard (Score:1)
So, where is the difficulty?
It's the 3D stuff. Sure, linux.3dfx.com [3dfx.com] has a fairly easy step-by-step for the various Voodoo cards, and both nVidi a [nvidia.com] and the Utah-GLX [sourceforge.net] crew have come a loooong way towards making it easier.
Still, they all practically require recompiles (kernel modules, or in the case of Utah-GLX -- grab the CVS copy and compile the whole thing, then patch your kernel, if you want decent performance). That is a little daunting to Joe average.
Mind you, you only need the investment for Q3, HG2, Heretic2, SoF, and UT (or the older Q1, Q2, or Kingpin), but it's still significantly harder than the equivalent setup under Windows.
Note: I really like Utah-GLX. It makes the G400 in my work box hum and do good things. I also think that the state of 3D hardware under Linux has come a REALLY LONG WAY in the past year. It's where Windows was the first time I tried to get a 3D app running hardware-accelerated (say, 1.5 years ago, or so). We have a ways to go. We have come a really long way. We're getting there.
We will be there for John Q. Average. Just not right this minute.
Also: there have been attempts to bundle known-good versions of Mesa (HG2, Q3A), but that has proben problematic -- after all, just 'cause it works for Q3A doesn't mean it really *is* a good version of Mesa for, say, HG2 which stresses Mesa quite differently.
We've come a long way, baby, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement...
Re:3dfx and other Hardware issues are a problem (Score:1)
If you can't get help from the Tech Support folks via phone, e-mail support@lokigames.com [mailto].
I haven't had any real problems with X 3.3.x and my Voodoo3 at home. In fact, Myth2, GLQuake, Q2, Q3, HG2, UT, Kingpin, and SoF all run just fine =)
Re:A Programmer's Perspective (Score:1)
SDL (Simple DirectMedia Layer) [libsdl.org] is an excellent API for the graphics and input portions. It's even cross-platform, using DirectX 7 under Win95/98 and GDI under WinNT 4. Not to mention Linux (X, X/MIT-SHM, SVGAlib, AAlib, fbcon, ggi), Be, Mac, etc.
FWIW, it's what Loki [lokigames.com] uses for their ports.
Coupled with OpenAL [openal.org] (used in HG2, SMAC, SC3K, SoF, and Descent3), it's solving real-world problems now.
The API's are there, and maturing quickly. Feel free to use them :-)
Re:Linux gaming is definitely getting better. (Score:1)
Re:Open Source games (Score:1)
Greetings,
Re:A Programmer's Perspective (Score:1)
Take a look at Crystal Space (http://crystal.linuxgames.com). It is an Open Source 3D engine that runs on Linux, Windows, BeOS, DOS, Macintosh, FreeBSD, SGI, Solaris, NextStep, OpenStep,
The Crystal Space project is doing very well at the moment. We are the second most active project on SourceForge (http://sourceforge.net). More than 110 people already contributed.
Greetings,
Re:Consider how the rest of the world views us (Score:1)
The lack of creativity comment is annoying. NetTrek was one of the early pioneers of realtime online gaming. A lot of the ideas now appearing in current online games started in NetTrek. This runs the gamut from networking tricks to how to deal with hostile clients. There have been other excellent, creative Open Source games. I remember xtank fondly, and xpilot is a lot of fun.
Open Source games have typically lacked artists, which has made them look bad. This is starting to change.
I don't see games as a 'killer app' that will draw people to the Linux platform, but it will help people who've decided to come to the Linux platform do away witht heir Windows installations. It will also help Linux be taken more seriously as a consumer level OS.
I can't run anything but Linux now. My primary computer, and the only one fast enough for decent games, has been turned into a server. The only commercial quality games I can play on it are from Loki. I own practically every single one of their games. :-) If it isn't out for Linux, it doesn't exist for me.
I think the main reason we have games on Linux... (Score:1)
...is because such a high percentage of Linux users are gamers, not because there is particularly good reason for Linux games to be written.
I know this will probably trash my Karma, but I would suggest that the one thing Windows is good at is games. I'll bet many /.ers are much like me: We have an Athlon at home which runs Win98SE which is essentially a dedicated game box, while at work we use a real operating system.
I'm old enough to remember when IBM held back the technical development of the PC because they didn't want to be seen as a "game" machine and ruin their relationship with business. Unfortunately, this psychology would never occur to most Linux users, even though it might be a much better argument to use with suits: "Oh, sure, I use Windows for games because that's clearly what it was designed for. But for real computing on a network, I need an operating system which was designed for that environment, like Linux."
Unfortunately, most Linux users are gamers. So this kind of thinking never occurs to them. But to the suits the idea they are using a toy really might affect their decision-making. Of course, to geeks like us a computer is a toy, even if the game we are playing is WebSite Tycoon ][, the game of getting up a high-volume site before the suits promise the customers something we can't deliver. ("Blast that marketing dude before he talks to the CEO!")
I say this even though I spend my spare time working on an open-source game called FaerieMUD [faeriemud.org], which (like most MUDs) is fully Linux-compatible.
On a couple of slightly off-topic notes: Am I the only one who has stopped reading Gamespot since they did that terrible makeover? And when are we going to have a smackdown between Robyn Limos and Robert Lemos over the trademark on their names?
Re:Linux as a Desktop (Score:2)
One one side, we have open source making these drivers and applications available to try out from day one. You try it in its development state, and you you get the drivers available almost as soon as someone starts working on them. This is great for someone wanting to use only the basic initial features of any code.
On the bad side though, as any coder knows, the installation and aesthetic appearance of the finished product is something that only comes about after the core of the application/driver is complete. Aesthetics and installation is only a wrapper around the core code, and hence comes last.
So although the installation of Linux ports of games is not an entirely painless process at the moment, we will have to wait until code devel of the various drivers are completed. As the article states, 3d drivers will be shortly integrated into the XFree86 codebase, once their primary functions have been written.
It will be from this time that we will see all of the QuakeIII/HereticII installs being as simple as running one script from the CDROM. (I am not a fan of Windozes cd auto-run "feature" though, as it presents obvious security issues).
3D video/audio development is currently in its peak (or about to reach it), so I think we will be seeing built in support for these in all the major distributions before the end of the year.
Give the driver code base a chance to be developed first.
Re:"Click it, baby." ? (Score:1)
What a shame. I'm sure she's wishing the other one was too.
Is this truely a game news? (Score:1)
Re:Not that hard (Score:2)
I think most of that ease can be attributed to SDL. Just running the install script takes care of the SDL install for you, and the game just works. I wish more developers would use it.
It's fast, easy, and best of all, portable.
Still no Solution for installing (Score:3)
Not that hard (Score:3)
I bought RR II - ran the install file as root (install.sh?). 3 or 4 minutes later I was playing. No funky options to choose, ran great first try. Crashed a bit after that, but there were patches (same as Windows games). So, where is the difficulty?
Re:Open Source games (Score:2)
Re:would have been 1st (Score:4)
win: This application has performed an illegal operation and will now shut down.
mac: The application "Unknown" has unexpectedly quit because of an error of type x.
unix: your process died. find worthless developer who apparently can't code his way out of a wet paper bag and kick his ass? (y/n)
note that on OpenBSD, the default is 'y' :-]
Re:Open Source games (Score:2)
Linux is the best gaming platform... (Score:2)
Yes, you do not have access to the same number of titles as windows users. Know what? 98% of those Windows titles are crap I'd never touch anyway. So I can't play Daikatana, so I'll never be able to run Tomb Raider 5; I think I'll be able to cope with that. Loki has IMO been extremely smart in selling only *quality* titles that "Linux people" will be interested in (Civ:CTP, Q3A, SimCity2000, Alpha Centauri, etc, etc.)
Yes, the hardware support is not as extensive as windows 98. People who complain about this really irritate me. If you want a 3D card and you run Linux, then take 30 freaking seconds and check if the card you're going to buy is going to work or not. Sheesh! I always research before a purchase to make sure a device is going to work well on my linux box and I have NEVER been DISAPPOINTED.
Linux is also by far the most stable gaming platform. One of the reasons I switch to linux was cause TeamFortress didn't crash the system like it was prone to do under Win95. With linux, I can minimize all my work programs and fire up Q3Arena for a quick 10 minute frag-break. I don't have to worry about my box crashing, and my work apps are always there waiting for me when I exit, safe, sound and still executing.
Bah!
Re:One would hope (Score:2)
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
Re:Linux as a Desktop (Score:2)
The only problem with your scenario is that it would require common programs across all distros. Common window managers, common X versions, etc. Part of the beauty of Linus is the choice.
I can install RedHat in 15 minutes on most any system, depending on CDROM speed. Then, just connect to helixcode, and get the latest gnome w/support programs. In all, this will take you a couple hours. At that point, you've got a nice capable system that your mom could figure out. It's got a graphical login, and it's close enough to windows so that she can find solitare, not to mention it looks better. Then add SDL, which Loki uses in most of it's games and which is installed automatically, and you've got a nice system. Even go with XFree 4.0 if you wish. The point is, you can do what you want, the way you want.
btw, Windows isn't trouble free, especially when it comes to 3D. Most times you have to swap video drivers a few times before you can get playable, but still stable gameplay. Not to mention, 50% of the games out there don't work with Win2000. They can't get to the hardware. I've got a customer who can't even use their tape drive because they upgraded to 2000.
Consider how the rest of the world views us (Score:5)
Right now, there are three primary groups using Linux:
1. ISP's and other businesses that need rock solid networking and file serving.
2
3. Geeks who fixate on which operating system they use. This overlaps somewhat with the previous item.
Right now, Loki is selling mostly to number 3, and I suspect this is the smallest and most volatile group. Number 2 is where the users are, but that's a tough place to make money. It's the same place crazy Napster support is coming from, and for a very obvious reason.
To an outsider whose eyes are clear of zealotry, the Linux game market looks like this:
1. There are only a handful of commercial games.
2. Those games are also available for Windows, so even if I decide to pick up Linux at Barnes & Noble I still have Windows around to play games with. Not sure why I would want to play the Linux version.
3. The freebie games are pretty horrendously unexciting. Yay! Hundreds of Tetris and Asteroids variants! Does Open Source somehow imply a lack of creativity?
4. All the nifty games like The Sims and FreeSpace 2 and Roller Coaster Tycoon aren't out for Linux. Maybe they'll get ported next year, but I don't see why I should paint myself into a corner just for the sake of supporting an operating system.
Harsh? Maybe, but let's be honest about this. There are very few reasons to even consider using Linux for games, unless you've decided to hold fast to OS-centric views. If there were something really sweet that were available only for Linux, I could see _some_ people peering over the wall to see what all the fuss was about, and maybe setting up a partition to play. But we're a long way from seeing that happen.
Re:One would hope (Score:2)
Lead programmer for J-J-J-Julius Games, a leading and cutting-edge game company based out of Baltimore, MD.
Really? I don't see any thing on the web and your URL doesn't go anywhere.
I have worked on many ground-breaking products within the industry, including Spork II, Star Trek: The Fillament Legacy, and Pitfall for Nokia 5125.
I have done a search for these games and they just don't seem to come up on any search I do on the search engines or gaming sites. You claim to be a great game programmer but your titles are unknown and your company doesn't seem to exist. If you are not a troll then please explain.
Molog
So Linus, what are we doing tonight?
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:5)
There is the idea of having DirectX by itself (with no operating system), which would be interesting, but in order to do it well, you'd have to have the co-operation of Microsoft, which seems unlikely. OpenGL + OpenAL + GII or something like that might be more practical.
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:2)
3dfx and other Hardware issues are a problem (Score:2)
What this leads me to is the various hardware problems. While processor speeds, ram etc... are all standard, I believe that hardcore Linux gaming, as in commercial games like Loki are porting, are going to have problems for a while yet. I mean I have this hardware problem which I can't find the answer to and their tech support seems unwilling to try and help with, plus there are innumerable other problems. Just go check out some of the groups on their news server [lokigames.com] and read about the various technical problems people are having.
Don't get me wrong, Loki are doing a great job and their developers kick ass, but until their tech support actually goes out of their way to help with something other than just giving dumb answers which rank up with "are you sure the computer is switched on?", Linux gaming is going to be mired in the quicksand of the same kind of hardware problems that used to occur years ago in DOS.
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:2)
I'm willing to bet that this might be a problem with the system you are installing on, how you are installing the RPM, or the person making the RPM. I really don't think it's RPM. I have had very few (if any) problems with RPM. It's software and it tends to do its job very well as long as everyone along the way does theirs.
Bad Mojo [rps.net]
Re:open al on linux games (Score:2)
Heavy Gear II for Linux does use OpenAL. Check it out and see what you think. Then download the OpenAL source code and fix anything you don't like.
Scott Draeker
Re:Still no Solution for installing (Score:2)
I sure hope they keep plugging away.. (Score:2)
But Gah! I have to boot into windows 98 to play EverQuest... (and don't try to tell me not to play EverQuest, it is an addiction and I'm not giving it up). There are some great advances here, but a lot of reluctance from some of the companies. I am tempted to buy copies of QuakeIII Linux, just to promote Linux ports (even though I already gave up my Quake addiction).
What it comes down to is we are all dreaming of the day when we have no use for Windows. When we have a dual boot machine and we delete the wondows partition to fit StarCraft 2 on our hard drives. When we spend a weekend getting all of our code to compile on Kylix.
So, what is missing? I guess we need every company everywhere in the world to jump at once.
-Effendi
Linux as a Desktop (Score:2)