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Games Entertainment

Project Entropia's Universe Solidifies 333

Posted by timothy from the sweden's-largest-software-project dept.
Psyiode writes "Swedish interactive entertainment developer MindArk today announced the virtual universe Project Entropia is going gold on January 30th 2003. If you'll recall, Project Entropia is a MMORPG where everything is purchased with real money and slowly degrades during use. Could this be the way most online games will be played (and paid for) in the future?"
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Project Entropia's Universe Solidifies More

Project Entropia's Universe Solidifies

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  • zerg (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Lord Omlette ( 124579 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @03:54AM (#4860698) Homepage
    We play to escape reality, not be held back by it.

    • exactly (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:39AM (#4860829)
      Isn't one of the large advantages of the RPG's out now that you can be anyone you want? If real world classes and poverty extend into the online realm, why would anybody want to take part.

      If you are just going to get fragged by the 15 year old who's parents bought him the best gun in the game, why play?

      ??

      • The other audience (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Snaller ( 147050 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @06:29AM (#4861081) Journal
        This is probably going to attract people who hope to be able to make money from the being in the game (we see this in just about all other online games, where they sell items and equipment for real life money) - it may also be a way for nolife nerds to make a living without leaving their sofa!

        • Re:The other audience (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @06:40AM (#4861108)
          Yes, but in games such as Ultima Online and Everquest you had tremendous potential for the game at the beginning. Then when the servers started being filled up with more and more lamers, the game "sold out". Instead of roleplaying, the games degraded into pure hack'n slash with only out-of-character conversations. Then RL money got involved and the games sold out even more. Now they're so degraded and such sell-outs, all the serious players have left years ago. Only the hopeless addicts are left. They play in order to feel great about themselves, dominate others, etc, which says alot about their self-esteem and self-worth.

          It remains to be seen if you can build a world for addicts, with no gain but "make money". If someone makes money, someone else has to pay. But why pay if the game isn't really worth it? It's already a sell-out from its infancy, and this is why I predict this to be yet another bust from the DOT-COM era.

          Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe it'll be like a game of poker. Players trying to cheat eachother over money, or a giant pyramid game (the older characters sell stuff to newbies who in turn grow older). It's not my type of game though, and sounds like it can become illegal in some countries.
        • This is probably going to attract people who hope to be able to make money from the being in the game (we see this in just about all other online games, where they sell items and equipment for real life money) - it may also be a way for nolife nerds to make a living without leaving their sofa!


          Except that the stuff degrades, so you can't exactly build up a cache and then sell it on Ebay (although I admit it would encourage people to pay up faster).

          • Re:The other audience (Score:3, Informative)

            by kirisu ( 145274 )
            I currently play the game, which is kind of obvious that you don't with your mentioning that you cannot hoard stuff. The equipment only degrades with use, and some of it degrades much slower than others. It is possible to hoard things, they are currently working on apartments that you could use to store objects in, and you already have a huge inventory, bigger than the inventory I've seen in any MMORPG.

    • Re:zerg (Score:2, Interesting)

      by haggar ( 72771 )
      Yeah. If my reality sucks because I'm poor, do I want my virtual experience to suck exactly like that? I don't think so :o) I have the distinct impression that the game is going to succeed with those with a lot of money to throw away - and I am not saying there isn't a viable market, there. It's just that I don't feel I'm part of that market.

      • Re:zerg (Score:5, Insightful)

        by rblancarte ( 213492 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @05:51AM (#4861002) Homepage
        But if the game succeeds with those with disposable incomes, will that be enough to make the game go? Sure those with a money will (or I should say MAY) play, but if the game is only limited to that market, then:
        1- won't a huge market (poorer gamers) be left out
        2- won't this smaller pool of players lead to a less than fulfilling game, which causes players to leave which results in even LESS fun which ...
        The game sounds interesting, but I think that they are trying to get way to close to true reality, and in games, that might be the line that you don't want to break.

        RonB

  • Sliding feet (Score:5, Interesting)

    by nukey56 ( 455639 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @03:54AM (#4860699)
    Last time I checked the beta out, it lacked certain prerequisites for a good game environment, including the ability to walk. Seriously. The character models had no walk animation, and instead, just slid around. I have serious doubts about this game, mostly because it seems that more effort has gone into the complex systems (read: economy) than into the user experience. Just my 2 cents.

    • Re:Sliding feet (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I would hope that they would make realistic walking models. Every recent game has had them, so why wouldn't this game.

      And as a beta tester, you should expect some stuff to not work correctly/ or be finished yet. They just need to make sure most of it works and work on the bugs.

    • Re:Sliding feet (Score:5, Funny)

      by tangledweb ( 134818 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @03:59AM (#4860720)
      Remember that the whole game funding model is based on selling you shoes that slowly degrade.
    • Not to mention the fact that your avatar jumps back and forward all the time. Their communication and prediction code seemed to be horrible to say the least.

  • Ok but why (Score:3, Funny)

    by jfmiller ( 119037 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @03:54AM (#4860700) Homepage Journal
    Why would I want to do this on line. I have enough problems with spending money on things that decay in the real world?

    JFMILLER

  • Until.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by GoRK ( 10018 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @03:54AM (#4860703) Homepage Journal
    Yep, they're purchased with real money until someone figures out how to steal them or counterfit them.

    Welcome to the world where you pay for the privilege to be cheated and robbed!

    Anyway, it better be a blast otherwise it's just going to suck ASS
    • Yep, they're purchased with real money until someone figures out how to steal them or counterfit them.

      Er, ever heard of autopatching?

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • That comment got me to thinking. If you pay real cash instead of imaginary gold for in-game items, imagine how far you can push the concept, at least in theory. If you're really unusually successful in a game like this, what about rewarding that with real money transferred into your game account? As long as the game kept taking in more than it paid out, which would be easy since items degrade over time and need to be repurchased, that could actually be workable.

      Imagine the implications--some of the top players could actually make a significant amount of money by becoming major in-game personalities. Some people have already been taking online games like *Ultima Online* seriously for years, developing complex characters with long histories and amassing many items. But imagine how many more people would take something like that seriously, and become really immersed in it, if money were to be had.

      The in-game economy could in effect become a real economy, with the game becoming essentially a job to some people. That could get really scary...

  • What about the laws? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @03:58AM (#4860716)
    Will PK & loots be treated as real murder & robbery?

  • Hyperbole? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Ratface ( 21117 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:02AM (#4860729) Homepage Journal
    They're saying that they've invested over 15 million USD in the game already and will continue to invest over 5 million USD/year! That sounds like a horrific amount of money for them to try and make back. Expect a virtual cup of coffee to cost 10 bucks real money!

    Also, I live in Sweden and work in the Internet industry here and I've never heard of this company. If their investment has been as large as they say it has, I would expect to have heard something about them. (I would also expect them to build a website that *doesn't* crash my browser (IE 6!) every time I visit the site!).

    Just my 2 Entropian cents!

    • Re:Hyperbole? (Score:4, Funny)

      by MalcalypseTheYounger ( 398517 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:14AM (#4860762)
      Expect a virtual cup of coffee to cost 10 bucks real money!

      Wow, just like at Starbucks.

    • Re:Hyperbole? (Score:3, Informative)

      by tigress ( 48157 )
      I live in Sweden, work in the "Internet industry" and have been hearing about this company for... oh, say the last couple of years or so. Perhaps you'd like to check Fragzone [fragzone.se] a bit more frequently. =)

      I mean, they've even had job openings listed on Arbetsförmedlingen [www.ams.se]. =)
      • Yeah, but 15 million dollars is 135,096,373 kronor according to xe.com today. Don't you think that if they were *really* making investments that large in the game they would be the new Framfab, appearing in Computer Sweden and Dagens Industri almost every day?

        I mean, even the company I work for has advertised for new employees before - and we sure as hell don't have 135 million kronor invested in our company!

        My point is simply that:
        a) their figures sound overinflated and
        b) if they really *have* invested that much money there's no hope in hell they'll be able to make it back again! (Which makes me wonder why on earth they are overinflating their figures!) ;-)

        • Re:Hyperbole? (Score:3, Insightful)

          by tigress ( 48157 )
          True. After all, they're only mentioned three times on idg.se [www.idg.se], and only one of those is for ComputerSweden. On the other hand, think about it. Are they releasing new products and technologies almost every day? Is their primary customer base the "IT companies", or big corporation that might invest heavily in a brand new Project Entropia IT-Infrastructure?

          No, their primary focus is on gamers, hence the relatively low coverage in magazines that are about technology and consulting, and the relatively high coverage in publications that are about... (suspense) g@Mi/|/G!!!!1

          As for the $15M, doesn't sound too unrealistic. Considering that they employ 70 people today, assume 50 people average. Salary, say $30k average, which would cost the company about $45k per employee due to our nifty Swedish tax laws (Not only does employees have to pay taxes, companies have to pay employer-fees as well). Now, multiply that with the 3 years that I know for sure that the company has existed (earliest mention of them was June 1999). That's about $6.75M in just salaries alone. Now, add office rental, equipment, internet access, electricity etc. Suddenly, the $15M doesn't sound too unrealistic anymore, now does it? =)

          I admit though, I too doubt that they'll ever make a profit, but who knows. The market has surprised me before.

    • Re:Hyperbole? (Score:4, Funny)

      by limekiller4 ( 451497 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:23AM (#4860793) Homepage
      Ratface writes:
      "They're saying that they've invested over 15 million USD in the game already and will continue to invest over 5 million USD/year! ... If their investment has been as large as they say it has, I would expect to have heard something about them. (I would also expect them to build a website that *doesn't* crash my browser (IE 6!) every time I visit the site!)."

      It took Microsoft a few billion to make a whole OS crash reliably. If these guys are making your browser crash with a lousy 5m/yr, I think they're doing a pretty good job.

    • 15 million, eh? =) (Score:4, Funny)

      by Andorion ( 526481 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @05:17AM (#4860924)
      How much do you wanna bet when they say they're investing 15-million, they mean they're creating $15,000,000 worth of items in-game? =)

      $50,000 from Uber Swords of Slaying (500 @ $100 apiece)
      $5,000 from Moldy Muffins (5,000 @ $1 each)

      etc, etc.

      -Berj
      • Mod parent insightfull, as this is probably what the monetary situation is; I've heard (and read reviews by) this company before, and this is exactly what they're planning to do with their business model. They plan to infuse the game with realworld $ items, which is their "pull" system to entice people to play.

    • Offices raided by MS (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Cpt_Corelli ( 307594 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @05:26AM (#4860950)
      I have heard about them when their offices were raided by 70 officials of the Swedish court, acting on behalf of Microsoft and three other software companies.


      Read more on this link [mindark.com].

    • I live in Sweden, work in the same industry, and I am not a gamer, at least not more than occasionally. Still, I've heard about these guys, and quite a lot, too.

      I don't see how that could be avoided, if you are at all interested in the industry you work in. Maybe you are one of the many thousands of people that went through the "network engineer" courses when IT was "the future" here in Sweden? Damn, they put a lot of people through those. Nothing wrong with that, but if so, I understand that you have no real interest in this business, and probably don't keep a jour in the way geeks with no life does. ;-)

      That doesn't mean they need to be any good - just that they do get heard.
  • ...to play this game when RealLife (tm) has been up to version 5.6 since a few million years already ?
    • 5.6? damn, that is what i have been doing wrong.
    • Yeah, just don't upgrade to RealLife 5.7 if you have ACoupleOfYearsLeft 2.1, GirlFriend 3.0 or Wife 1.0 installed. The first downright prohibits the upgrade, the second gives some kind of "nag exception" error message and the third gives me an "alimony syntax error in money.pocket".

      You have been warned.

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:05AM (#4860734)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:I'll tell you how this is going to turn out... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by jedie ( 546466 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:25AM (#4860799) Homepage
      And the fact that the game is actually free to play (you don't have to purchase the currency to play) makes it prone to some serious abuse.
      IMHO, MMORPGs without a subscription fee are always doomed to fail (anyone remember "graal"?) because some people won't take the game/account seriously ("hey, I don't pay for it, why shouldn't I be a damn lamer?")

    • My experience says otherwise... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by raehl ( 609729 ) <raehl311@@@yahoo...com> on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:39AM (#4860828) Homepage
      I played a MUD when I was in HS/college, and I was arguably the best player in the game, and my clan was definitely the best clan in the game. The game also had an outlaw system similar to this one, and sure enough, everyone in my clan had outlaw flags.

      However, we wern't outlaws - we WERE the law. If you were nice, you were treated nice, and if you killed and stole from people, we'd hunt you down. Most people gave us a wide berth, but some would think they could take us on, and they'd get beat down too. The rest wanted to join the group.

      Not saying it's not possible the top 10-20 players won't form an outlaw group, but it's also possible that the top 10-20 players form a more benevolent power structure.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
        Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • I have a hard time seeing what you had going as anywhere near benevolent. Dictators work the same way. As long as there is no threat to them losing control of the power structure, they are nice and happy... but as soon as something happens which illegitimizes their power, they need revenge in order to reestablish it. You were a Warlord, or a Godfather... but not the law. Did you have courts? Or did you just try and convict on your own knowledge alone? Just because you allowed the rest of the world to exist as long as they were "nice" doesn't make you just.

      • Uhuh (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Did you punish one of your own if he stepped out of line? If not you werent the law, but just the syndicate.
      • Isn't that exactly how the mafia got started?
      • So who is to say that some one or group won't take on the in-game occupation of Bounty Hunter? If you could enter into some binding agreement, perhaps with an in-game escrow, It could be a fruitful business.

        1. Hunt a perpetrator of a crime down
        2. Kill repeatedly
        3. Loot their bodies
        4. Give desired item to employer
        5. Collect fee from escrow
        6. Profit!
    • Or just small gangs, its all about skills, outlaws prolly play 24/7 and know every little thing there is too know about the game, including any little cheat that might help a little bit in gaining a advantage..

      We got killed and killed again in Ultima Online just by one player, maybe we sucked, but i think he just was a skilled 13 old r0xx0r...

      Now with real money maybe playing robin hood (wow i just noticed robin sounds like robbing hood, he is robbing every one in the hood) will be worth while stealing of the cheap as outlaws who have more stuff then others have anyways ;)
    • So you're postulating it will look like a better version of this flick? [slashdot.org]

      "I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller!"
      -- Project Entropia's best player.

  • I don't understand...... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mrshowtime ( 562809 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:11AM (#4860749)
    Why would I want to pay for something that does not exist and "degrades" over time, just like the real world. I am curious as to how this economy is going to work. Is it going to be setup like "paypal," where one dollar is worth one "Entropia" dollar, or will there be an exchange rate? On the surface this concept is neat, but I fear that someone will crack this really quick and leave all the suckers who paid real money out in the cold. I think this concept would work better in a "Sims" type environment, not a space epic. Is little timmy going to have to save up to buy that "Millenium Falcon" in Entropia?

  • Pfftt.... (Score:3, Funny)

    by are_bee ( 205832 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:14AM (#4860763)
    Real life has WAY better graphics

    • Takes a lot of work (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Wrexs0ul ( 515885 )
      Can be hard getting a good game of RealLife (tm). Partial destruction of your FAT only to find later all you needed was a FirmWare upgrade is a real pain.

      -Matt

  • Beta Testing (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:15AM (#4860765)
    I beta tested this game when it was initially released to the public, I downloaded the installer and could _not_ get it to run. I emailed tech support a bunch of times, and they could not help me - finally I found out the .cab files had not even been extracted by the installer. I'm not trusting a company who has spent "15" million dollars and can't even get the installer to work correctly.

  • Real money theft (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Cat_Byte ( 621676 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:16AM (#4860770) Journal
    Wow..and people were doing drive by shootings and other acts of violence in Japanese internet cafes over EQ. Imagine what it will be like when someone takes items worth $100+ in real money.
  • Pay real money for something that deteriorates over time? This sounds to much like my Windows PC setup....

  • some sort of paradox... (Score:5, Funny)

    by deft ( 253558 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:18AM (#4860775) Homepage
    in the game can i buy a character that will go, buy a computer, with my real money in his virtual world, then play a stupid game he has to pay for in the game with his 'real' money... that he can pay for his damn self, because ill be dammed if some game character is going to bum a dime off me after i paid for him to exist.

    stupid leech characters.

    • Re:some sort of paradox... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Plug ( 14127 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @05:10AM (#4860899) Homepage
      That almost sounds like the movie "The Thirteeth Floor" [imdb.com], a great movie which got put into the B-movie category because it came out in the same year as a movie with much the same theme, and more money [whatisthematrix.com]. The Thirteenth Floor tells us that humans created a virtual world - a 'simulation' - only to find out that they were simply characters in a simulation themselves. Or, if you follow, this particular simulation that humans of the future indulge in trips into, was the first to actually develop simulation technology themselves.

      That's a scary thought. As soon as we can simulate life (any life) completely, we have no way of proving we are not a simulation being run by a higher life form.
      • As soon as we can simulate life (any life) completely, we have no way of proving we are not a simulation being run by a higher life form.

        Would you expect that a higher life form has the same capabilities of making simulations as we have? On the other hand, maybe the ones running the simulation are not higher life forms, they just have decided that the best hardware and software is not available in the simulation. I think you could just as well say it directly: We have no way of proving we are not a simulation.

        Maybe our parents got stuck on the Enterprise holodeck for good, and we are the only 'real' thing?

        The 'blue screen of death' sounds really scary now. I hope they are not running Windows.

        You made me paranoid. I hope you are happier now.

  • Duplication (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Business Plan:

    1) Find a duplication bug.
    (duplication bugs allow you to clone items, usually by manipulating how the game saves or moves items)
    2) Buy a 20 dollar item.
    3) Duplicate it 20 times, for 20*2^20 = 20 million items.
    4) Sell it back to the game.
    5) Cash out your 20 million and retire.
  • If I pay for the game software I am entitled to play for free. Blizzard is a prime example of this in action and working..

    If I get the software free I am willing to pay to play.

    I am not willing to violate rule 1 or 2.

    If they expect me to pay for the software and pay to play and pay for stuff in the game they must be totally bonkers.

  • Calypso (Score:5, Insightful)

    by atomicdragon ( 619181 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:28AM (#4860811)
    How appropriate of a name for the planet: Calypso. She put her efforts into distracting Odysseus from his real goal to go home. I don't think this game is going to distract me and keep me from my real life for seven years like Odysseus though.

  • Well, this isn't that bad really.. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by raehl ( 609729 ) <raehl311@@@yahoo...com> on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:36AM (#4860821) Homepage
    It's not like you can't get things for cash in every OTHER game like this, they're just starting out that way from the onset.

    The real question is whether you can buy character skills. Paying real cash for things isn't so bad when characters still need to acquire skills through practice - then you can also acquire things through skills. I.e. maybe I can buy a "Sword of Moderate Death" for $20, but the only way to get a "Sword of Extreme Death" is to find a level 99 Wizard to enchant it - and maybe that Wizard is going to want some cash for his services.

    The cash thing just makes this game more of an extension of the real world than a substitute. No more getting spanked by some 12 year old who can play 16 hours a day because you have a real job and they don't - now your real job is worth something in the game.

    'Course, me personally, I'd rather get laid.
    • "No more getting spanked by some 12 year old who can play 16 hours a day because you have a real job and they don't - now your real job is worth something in the game."

      Ok, well if you don't like that, play Quake, or UT, or COunter Strik, or Battlefield 1942 or any of thsoe kinds of games. In those there is no advancement, noone is better than anyone else and you start on equal footing everytime the server resets. The only thing that makes any difference is your skill and you computer/internet connection (which money can improve).

      The point of an MMORPG is to create an interactive sotry, like D&D. The advancement and achievement is the largest part of the fun. Would you like to play a D&D game where you get +3 swords just by slipping the DM a $20?

      BAsically, if you want an RPG type story but just want to win (what's the point?) get a single player RPG like Morrowind and use teh cheats. If you want multiplayer combat, but want no time ivestment, play a RTS or FPS where it is equal starting all the time. MMORPGs are not for that.

      • Re:Well, this isn't that bad really.. (Score:5, Funny)

        by Flounder ( 42112 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @05:47AM (#4860997)
        Would you like to play a D&D game where you get +3 swords just by slipping the DM a $20?

        Well, I always found that the DM could be bribed with Mt Dew and a pizza. And as he's in a grease and caffiene induced stupor, whisper in his ear "The ranger really could use a Vorpal Sword +4."

        Well, it worked for me. But the fact that I was nailing the DM's younger sister seemed to insure my untimely demise occured more often than any other players did. It was a fair trade. She was worth a few resurrection spells.

    • I bet his rich daddy is worth more than your real job.

      Sorry, I saw too many snobs sons-of-daddy running Mercedes like maniacs (most lethal car accidents in Croatia are caused by these kind of young people, under the effect of alcohol).
    • No more getting spanked by some 12 year old who can play 16 hours a day because you have a real job and they don't

      Nah, now you'll have the opportuntiy to be spanked by the 12-year-old whose parents have the most money instead! The wonders of progress! And your equipment deteriorates over time, so you'll have to keep spending money to stay on top. After reading this Slashdot discussion [slashdot.org], am I the only one who senses a disturbing similarity to dope dealers' business model?

  • Can we set up a Trust? (Score:5, Funny)

    by foniksonik ( 573572 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:38AM (#4860826) Homepage Journal
    if they want this to work like the real world, as far as economy goes at least, tehn we should have financial protection as well.

    I want life insurance policies, FDIC insured bank accounts, credit fraud reimbursement, and a living trust, not to mention offshore accounts, holding companies and tax havens.

    If this was set in the middle ages or ancient babylonia i'd understand why you could only carry around your wealth to insure it's safety but that's why we developed all these other paradigms, to protect ourselves from bandits, outlaws and thieves. Just cause it's sci-fi doesn't mean it's post apocolyptic! Where's the civilization?

    Also how do these things degrade? Can we repair them? or can we just buy Good(TM) stuff that doesn't degrade? I know people who buy cheap stuff and yeah it's pretty much crap before it degrades but it also degrades much much more quickly than most of the stuff I buy, like furniture, clothing, electronics, appliances, etc. Any of the rest of you people out there still have something you bought even five years ago that is in mint condition? ten years..

    I do.

  • Ummmm.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:40AM (#4860835)
    "Could this be the way most online games will be played (and paid for) in the future?"

    No.

    Most gamers would get real tired of having to shell out tons of money just to have a powerful character, and having to put up with little shits with too much money and attitude ruining it for everyone else. The achievement of advancing a character is what makes it so much fun for most people. I mean it's just bits, a non-reality, yet peopel enjoty the accomplishment. Hell D&D really showed this. It was all pen and paper and a story told among friends. You could cheat if you wanted, it's not like you couldn't just write down whatever character you wanted (provided the group was ok with it), the DM could jsut tell a story such that noone was ever in any danger. That's no fun, the risk and advancement of the interactive adventure is the appeal.

    If you want a game where you just start out and don't have to worry about that shit, just compete, play Quake, UT or the like. No leveling, no building, just combat. I love games like that for that, but tring to say you ought to just be able to buy your way to the highest levels in an RPG just defeats the purpose.

    • Re:Ummmm.... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by fusiongyro ( 55524 ) <faxfreemosquito.yahoo@com> on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @05:57AM (#4861022) Homepage
      Most gamers would get real tired of having to shell out tons of money just to have a powerful character, and having to put up with little shits with too much money and attitude ruining it for everyone else.

      It worked for Wizards of the Coast.

      I've had friends that have spent upwards of $500 on Magic cards, and that probably is a small figure compared to what some people here have spent. One of them said, "If I saw a $500 game in the store, I would back away slowly and make sure not to touch it." But since it was just $8 here, $8 there, a couple expansions for $3 or $4... it added up quickly. Also, there was always a new "killer deck" that could be made by combining certain rare cards in interesting ways, at great cost.

      I haven't seen their scheme (the website is down) but if their smart about it, they can make a deal no power-addicted gamer can refuse. It's happened before and it will happen again. People are always willing to pay a premium for their entertainment.

      --
      Daniel
      • When I got out of MtG, I had over $500 in cards. This was several years ago, lots of original alpha, betas, 1st ed, Arabian Nights, and Antiquities (probably would be worth over a grand nowadays).

        Sold them to a friend for $500 in cash. Combined it with his collection easily worth $1k at the time. Three days after he bought them from me, had his entire collection stolen from his car.

        Didn't know a human could turn that many shades of purple that rapidly.
    • Most gamers would get real tired of having to shell out tons of money just to have a powerful character, and having to put up with little shits with too much money and attitude ruining it for everyone else.

      And this is different from all networked gaming ... how, exactly?

      Because I can't buy a Level 99 Bufu Extreme with ten million plat and all the cyberware for $550 on ebay? Wait, I can.

      Because I can't get my panzy kiester handed to me by someone with the latest CPU, graphics card, and network connection their parent's money can buy? Wait, they do.

      Money is already a factor in these games, even in "Quake, UT or the like". As a life-long owner of inferior gaming machines, I can tell you how much better player I am with simply a better frame rate or higher resolution or more ergonomic game controller.

      I agree that this won't catch on, but not because people won't pay money for a better gaming experience. They very obviously have and will continue. It's because somebody has already spent cash for gear that gives them "the edge", or are creating their own free-market mindset by seeing how much someone is willing to pay for their kick-ass sword online, so why on Earth should they or anybody spend even more money?

  • payment scheme (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:42AM (#4860837)
    with a payment scheme like this, they can easily make subtle game economy changes to basically raise the fee for playing. whereas in a monthly fee based game if they up the fee by, say, 150% of what it is, it is quite a bit more noticeable and users will easily drop out or complain.

    the idea seems like a good one to people looking to play the game, but it is incredibly sneaky from the other end when you think about it.

    for example, they are able advertise being able to play the game for free, what they don't tell you is you can't do anything without buying anything, thus, severely limiting gameplay. to really play the game you need to purchase $10 worth in items that decay within a month, after which point you must buy another $10 worth. they can easily monopolize the market by making themselves the only provider of items in the game. sure you can create your own things but how good is it compared to the store bought equivalent? they don't give such details on the website.

    transactions can be really simple, they can make an agreement in the game so clicking a button decrements/increments directly from your credit card instantly. only people who are calculating the money conversions and keeping track of how much they spend will be able to realize the actual cost of playing the game.

    i'm not sure i'll play this game for fear of losing my sense of reality and my money along with it.

  • Re: Game (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AliasMoze ( 623272 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @04:58AM (#4860872)
    The whole concept seems contrary to what many gamers go for in MMOGs. Don't players LIKE that advantage in the real world doesn't follow into the game world? Project Entropia allows players to buy into power using real dollars, so I guess it stands to reason that wealthier real world players will acquire more power and wealth in the game. I'm scratching my head wondering how this translates to better gameplay.

    Maybe this setup will attract older players with more disposable income?

    It really sounds as if the Entropia people saw knuckleheads spending thousands on Ebay to buy Ultima characters and decided to cash in by routing that money into their own pockets. I mean, everything in the game degrades. And who is the only "manufacturer" of new equipment? Hmm.

    Besides, the first schmuck who loses a bunch of money on some crappy item will sue the company.
  • This thing almost sounds like a good way to launder money or move it between shady sources...

    "In the new universe, real-world money can be used for virtual-world or real-world transactions (patent pending)."

    They're even going to patent real world transactions!

    It looks like they will offer insurance, you can transfer your credits back to USD, pk'ers can't steal your credit card in the game. The base exchange rate is 10 eBux = 1 USD.
  • From THIS [wired.com] article...

    ...At the request of Microsoft, Adobe Systems, other members of the Business Software Alliance (BSA) and nearly 70 local court officials in Gothenburg, Sweden, swept through MindArk's offices, temporarily shutting down company operations while the bailiffs catalogued every piece of software in the place. ...

    I submitted this to /. back in June with a note on my thoughts regarding established big biz hijacking and controling any developing net based economy.
    I wish I saved the rant in ascii and still can't believe it was rejected. (What? I must be new here)
    • I submitted this to /. back in June with a note on my thoughts regarding established big biz hijacking and controling any developing net based economy.


      According to the BSA attorney, they found 600 or so unlicensed copies of software there. Even if you think the BSA person is willing to lie, an allegation like that, if unsubstantiated, would have MindArk suing the BSA.

      This is real software piracy, not your buddy wanting to burn a copy of Windows Longhorn OEM Final RC .9876 or whatever. If you figure licenses at a cheap rate, let's say $100 on average, that's still $60K in the hole. That's enough to pay one programmer's salary and benefits, almost.

      It's not "the man" keeping MindArk down. Look at MindArk's business ethics. Do you believe their claims about being the most visited site on the internet, etc.?

      I submitted this to /. back in June with a note on my thoughts regarding established big biz hijacking and controling any developing net based economy.


      They're not controlling it or hijacking it. If you believe they're doing this just to shut them down, then that's one thing. But it looks like they're using valid reasons to do so.

      wish I saved the rant in ascii and still can't believe it was rejected. (What? I must be new here)


      Probably because you don't understand what you're talking about, and without the anti-MS slant you put on it, MindArk looks bad. If it's true that they've really got 600 unlicensed copies, fine them and bring criminal charges as well.

  • Warranty for items ? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by BESTouff ( 531293 )
    If you can really buy items, even if these are virtual items, that means under most countries'law that there is a kind of warranty if the item proves to be defective.

    "Hey, you just sold me a so-called magic armor which in fact didn't save my ass at all ! I want my money back, NOW !'

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @05:20AM (#4860935)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I have visions of heavily addicted fans pouring more and more money into a game like this.

    Fortunately this game looks really boring. Without player vs player encounters I can't see why anyone would want to invest sums of money to make their character any better.

    If you're interested in an almost fully functional online world where PvP and Guild vs Guild competition is the main objective then check out Shadowbane where you can literally change the world. [shadowbane.com]

    Open beta will occur in the new year.

  • i dont see how they are going to get my interest with their server being down. this is the type of thing that kills mushs.

    if this is simsonline meets everquest meets grand-theft-auto:vice city ... well then they can easily have my $20 or so a month.

    i would love to spawn off another virtual life.

  • Virtual Crime is real crime... or is it??? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jools33 ( 252092 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @06:05AM (#4861035)
    Please choose your avatar... will you be Warlock, wizard, magician, theif, lawyer, policeman, taxman...

    A crime in the virtual world is a crime in the real world too. You steal game credits and you're stealing real money. So the first time you see any crime in this mmorpg report it to the police immediately at: http://www.polisen.se/PSUser/frameset.jsp?nodeid=1 461&pageversion=1

    I know what I'm gonna do - hack into city bank - transfer as much money as possible to a swiss bank account somewhere - and when they come to arrest me I'll say - oh - I'm sorry - but I thought that citybank was just a mmorpg - and surely this is just a virtual theft - where's the harm in that.
    Seriously though - the second you can turn mmorpg income back to real income - you have a lot of very serious ethical questions. If someone steals from me online - do they pay tax on that income or not. If I hack the code to generate income - is that tax deductible, is it a crime? Is a crime in the virtual world not a crime in the real world too?

  • Alternatives (Score:2, Informative)

    by ddubois ( 470043 )
    3D worlds are getting more and more common.
    Here is an alternative, you can even create and share your own objects and scripts: Second Life [gamespy.com]
  • The concept of real life money being involved in this game is interesting, however, the lack of information concerning how they will protect monies in game and your account information disturbs me. - Below is an excerpt from their FAQ.

    18.7 How is my account information protected?
    There is a complete security system to take care of this.
    18.8 How is account hacking going to be handled?
    As you must understand we cannot reveal any details about our security.

    This does not inspire me to trust them or their product/service. - Are they using SSL? Something different? What protects the players in game account and real life account? What happens if there is a server hiccup and I get charged twice for an item? Is my account credited? Do I have to prove my case, if so how, what information must I supply. Must I hand over *very* personal information, like Paypal requests in account disputes, if something goes wonky with my account or if I am accused of some wrong doing? I guess players get to email the support/dev persons and pray that they are more forthcoming with information than the FAQ. But since they haven't told you anything already, do you expect them to tell you anything, down the road, when something bad goes down? I feel there are too many questions not already answered when the game is only a month and a half from gold.

    I'm sorry but this just seems like playing poker with a professional dealer while blindfolded.

  • Money laundering? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by JPelorat ( 5320 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @08:24AM (#4861333)
    Sounds like a great way to launder large amounts of cash. Rocco spends a ton of money in-game from a non-extraditable country, and 'sells' it all to Vinnie's character, who cashes out, happily legal and flush.

  • hmm.. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Skal Tura ( 595728 )
    If they make it a possibility to 'win' in the game, make it a bit of a gambling like, restrict the weapons heavily so that you cannot directly get the best weapon, have a lot of unique weapons.

    With the 'win' ability i mean you could find some good weapon and sell it for real money or real money trading between players. And also perhaps virtual dice games, roulette etc... ;)
    Charge the players very small monthly fee like 1USD and the weapons etc... costs they get revenue from there but if there just would be a chance that good player could gain cash also. that would be need to be very exactly balanced etc... to not increase pkiller count. for example if they'd make it so that both players fighting needs to have pkilling mode turned on and of course it should be hard to both see what kind of character with what powers they have.
    This would lead to people taking duels etc... and might create a 'sub-culture' on the game =)
    With what i mean a very good player is like top 2% could play actually without fees and few could gain from it, and perhaps so that there could be people getting from quests etc... very good weapons all the time and selling to those players in need of them, thus creating it so that few players could play as their work, and this would in time perhaps make so that NPC merchants etc... would be just for the n00bs as there are player groups where some of them goes hunting weapons etc... and one or two stay's in the cities selling that stuff.

  • Just a thought, but with the climate of "our society is crumbling, lets blame computer games", we (as computer game players) always had the retort that it wasn't "real" per-se, e.g. noone actually suffers as a result of actions carried out upon/to them in any virtual world.

    However, this no longer holds with this game. You steal Etropian money from them, you are taking real hard cash from them. Where does this stand in the eyes of the law? Must you sign a waiver to play? Surely in the excessively litigious world of the US of A, someone is gonna get mauled? Also, the anti computer game lobby now have a real reason to start banning games. Frankly I'm fascinated by the concept, but I don't think I want to go down that road.

    IMO there is no longer a stark line drawn between criminality in the real world and the virtual one. It's no longer a moral issue, it's an issue, period. Kids (or adults) who start to f*ck ppl over in this game have a real danger of getting a feel for this "free money" lark and may well bring this behaviour into the real world. No?

    - Ois

  • Slowly degrades (Score:3, Funny)

    by ch-chuck ( 9622 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @09:14AM (#4861478) Homepage
    just play anything with Windows 98 and you'll get the same effect.

  • Addicts (Score:3, Informative)

    by phorm ( 591458 ) on Wednesday December 11, 2002 @11:55AM (#4862508) Journal
    Exempting those who may be good enough to profit from the purchases/sales options, this might be a good thing for addicts. If you can't *afford* to play the game 24/7, then at least we could see them going out and getting a job.

    Of course, they could also end up like heroin addicts, breaking into cars and selling stolen stereos to pay for their "Entropia" addiction. (don't think it could happen, you underestimate how some of these people get sucked in).

    I still see hackers/cheaters being a big problem though. EG is constantly modifying things to lock out cheaters. Having a game with real money (and by a lot of what I've heard, lacking good programming in areas as the installer/character-anis suck) would be asking for trouble unless it has a very good method of
    a) Securing transactions
    b) Preventing cheating
    c) Still making the game fun/playable.

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