Follow Slashdot blog updates by subscribing to our blog RSS feed

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Graphics Software First Person Shooters (Games) Programming Entertainment Games IT Technology

Trying Your Hand at Level Design? 382

Utawoutau asks: "As a student nearing graduation with high interest yet no game industry experience I have been taking a serious look at the position of Level Designer. In order to apply for such a position of course, I would need an impressive portfolio. I am aware that a number of games, Neverwinter Nights for example, come packaged with level development tools and that a number of other games have tools (official or not) that are readily available on the Internet. I am interested in hearing opinions from others that have experimented with the level design tools for a number of games as to what they found the easiest, the most fun, the most in depth, and the most impressive to work with. In particular, I am interested in a game whose tools strike a good balance between all four of the above criteria."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Trying Your Hand at Level Design?

Comments Filter:
  • Valve Hammer Editor (Score:5, Informative)

    by plams ( 744927 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:06AM (#8110438) Homepage
    That's the Half-Life editor. It's been tried and tested. Lots of tutorials to be found on the net. Easy to use and learn.

    However, being an excellent architect is never easy:)
  • Few reccomendations (Score:5, Informative)

    by Qubed ( 665563 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:08AM (#8110452)
    I'd try bouncing a couple of levels off the fan community first. As far as games to develop go, I'd develop primarily for FPSs, and maybe a few strategy/adventure games. I don't play many of the latter, so here are the FPSs: Q3 and anything that uses it's engine (i.e. has Radiant editing tools) -- very easy to use, allows for lots of creativity. (Other Q3 engine games: JK2, RC Wolfenstein, Call of Duty?) The unreal games also have a nice bundled set of editing tools that would aid your portfolio. Best of luck!
  • by va3atc ( 715659 ) * on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:10AM (#8110457) Homepage Journal
    as to what they found the easiest

    The Cube Engine [cubeengine.com] allows you to edit maps right in the game on the fly. There is also a cooperative edit mode, try and beat that :)
  • by Fate02 ( 722204 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:12AM (#8110465)
    Most of the mapping tools I have worked with, if you want more in depth features, it will have a harder learning curve. It also depends on what game you are designing levels for. Neverwinter Nights is completely different than Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory (RTCW:ET), so the tools for the respective packages will be just as diverse. I personally like GtkRadiant for RTCW:ET.
  • by irokitt ( 663593 ) <archimandrites-iaur@@@yahoo...com> on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:13AM (#8110475)
    The upcoming (soon?) DOOM3 engine has in-game editors incorporated into the engine. Once it hits, I would expect that it would have all the success of the other Id engines, like the Quake engines.
  • Unreal Tournament (Score:3, Informative)

    by Metallic Matty ( 579124 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:19AM (#8110497)
    I think that Unreal Tournament came with an excellent level builder, and is worth taking a look at. (At least if you're interested in FPS games.) There are also lots of great tutorials and resources available for it, seeing as the game has been around for so long.
  • by mijacs ( 731687 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:24AM (#8110516)
    What is your personality like? Do you like all games equally? Is there something you wish to make just floating around in your head?

    You should be looking something suitable for you not other people. Everyone likes how things work differently. Also go take a look at Gamasutra [gamasutra.com] for some good reading.

    Personally, try out Valve Hammer Editor [valve-erc.com] and QuArK. [planetquake.com] They are standards that can be used for many games.
  • Re: UED... 50% match (Score:4, Informative)

    by MachDelta ( 704883 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:31AM (#8110553)
    UED (Unreal Ed) is only really meets two of his "criteria".

    In depth? Extremely.
    Impressive? Well, maybe Intimidating is a more appropriate word, but sure.
    Fun? Depends on how much of a sadist you are. It can be fun, but it can also be a lot of friggin work.
    Easy? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAAAaaaaaaaahhhh... good one!

    Ok seriously now though. UED is a pretty damned fine level editor if I may say so. Powerful as all hell, but its not exactly idiot proof. Its not impossible either. I managed to learn the ins and outs of UED (and to a lesser extent, the Unreal engine) just by reading tutorials, dissecting other peoples maps, and screwwing around... but it took a while. Months really. Even after three years of occasionally booting up UED, i'm still learning new things. Though to be fair, a lot of it is stuff that changed from UT99 to UT03 (haven't had the urge to map as much for the new game :( ).
    But hey, if people really want to learn, there isn't much stopping them. Most people just dive right in. You'll probably be frustrated and attempt to quit (repeatedly ;)), but eventually some of it starts to stick. Maybe one day you'll even be half decent, if you keep at it. Funny how a lot of things in life work that way, no? :)
  • by pocketfullofshells ( 722066 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:33AM (#8110563)
    I'd have to agree.

    To enlighten you further, Valve Hammer Editor a.k.a. Worldcraft is very versatile, and like plams said its backed up a thousand times over, with places like the Valve-ERC Collective [valve-erc.com]. It's a very excellent Valve mapping/editing resource.

    The latest version of the Valve Hammer Editor is 3.4 and can be found here [valve-erc.com].
  • by 1iar_parad0x ( 676662 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:40AM (#8110601)
    First, read anything and everything by Chris Crawford. I hate most new media theorists, but he's an exception. He's a physicist by education and programmer/game designer by experience. I'd especially take a look at "Chris Crawford on Game Design".

    You should also take a look at some of his old game design articles in Next Gen magazine. He had one article on level design in Doom that was quite unique.

    Secondly, from a tricks/tools perspective, gamedev.net or xgames3d.com are your best bet.
  • Quake engine (Score:2, Informative)

    by TehHustler ( 709893 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @04:49AM (#8110646) Homepage
    Probably any game that uses the quake engine, including things like Half-Life, are easiest to edit for. Thing you have to remember is, anyone can learn the ins and outs of an editor, but having good design flair is the biggest obstacle to cross.

    Im eagerly awaiting the HL2 level design tool, with the SDK, in whatever form it takes when it's released. I have to make a ton of levels for our mod (Junkyard Corps, see sig) when it comes out.

    Some people say the Unreal engine is better for level making. Rather than build a level inside empty space and have to close everything off (ie, checking for leaks, etc) the unreal world is a block, and you carve stuff OUT of it. This seems a harder way of doing things to me, but according to other people, its the most natural way of doing it. As for non FPS games, I have no idea. I suspect it's horses for courses. Liking a particular genre more will make you want to take more steps to learn out to get good at designing for your chosen game.
  • by joelparker ( 586428 ) <joel@school.net> on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:12AM (#8110731) Homepage
    Definitely see Chris Crawford's website [erasmatazz.com]
    and "The Art of Computer Game Design" here [wsu.edu]
    and the related Game Design Wiki [ludism.org]

    Good luck! -Joel

  • Level Editors... (Score:5, Informative)

    by nekoes ( 613370 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:13AM (#8110735) Journal
    Where to start...

    Well, I guess the easiest, most obvious level editing suite out there (in the realm of FPS games anyway) is Valve's Hammer. It's quite scary just how easy it is to make levels with that util. Upon starting it I was able to figure out pretty much all of the basic features just by looking at the buttons. That's quite an accomplishment, if you ask me. The whole way the editor is layed out, and the process you use to design a level in the editor are both painless and relatively easy. If you're looking for a place to start, and games like TFC, CS, and NS are your forte, might as well start here. I think the only problems you may run into are in the setup options, and true to its oldschool roots, getting down and compiling a map, then tweaking that, can get pretty gritty.

    The only other editor I've logged any sort of time on was the unrealed that shipped with UT2003. I missed the whole UT generation, so I can't vouch for the older unrealed, I'd assume it's basically the same. However, after coming from Hammer, learning unrealed is a real pain. The interface is kind of counter-intuitive and the whole logic behind building levels is completely the opposite. It's quite weird. Once you get into the unreal mindset though, creating a level isn't hard at all, it's just that initial hill that you need to climb over. Well that, and unrealed is insanely buggy. I cannot tell you how many times I've lost work due to unexpected quits or fatal errors that seem to make no sense. I guess as it is with every program, save early and save often. This is the editor I eventually found most technically impressive. After learning something new about the editor, or pouring after technical docs and taking a stab at it myself, I am still wowed when I get a new effect (be it graphical or gameplay) working.

    Now note I have not logged any significant hours with these editors (read: I have not produced any well known or well thought of maps) as to know the individual quirks and the nuances of each editor. However I can offer the complete newbie's look into it, which I guess is better than nothing. If anything, I say that the Half-Life community has more tutorials and help geared toward my audience than the unreal community, as finding good and easily digestible information is hard. Epic seems to be trying to remedy this with their opening of Unreal Uni, or whatever it is they are doing, which offers video tutorials and forums for developers. (A good thing, but I'm fearing the mod potential is going to waste in these days counting closer to HL2, with potential developers looking for the next big thing rather than weighing the assets of what's out there- which is hard to do for something not quite released)

    As for most things tech, I guess slogging through it and exploring is probably the best way to learn either of these.

    I guess on the RTS front, nothing is easier than Blizzard's warcraft 3 map editor. The thing is incredibly simple to use, though not quite as intuitive to the newbie's eye as hammer. I was able to get up and building levels (after finding I was unable to figure the tools out myself I went to the documentation) in about 10 minutes after reading the rather friendly documentation that comes with the toolset. I guess the thing is that the tools take 10 seconds to learn, but to master them and build a balanced and fun map, will probably take you a life time. (not to mention a keen understanding of the game.) The tools are fun to use, and going from the editor to a game to a multiplayer match you're testing with friends is quite easy and gratifying.

    Neverwinter Nights, I found, was rather easy. Scripting seemed to get kind of nightmarish quick, but I quickly lost interest with building with those grossly simplified tools. I guess the real challenge was figuring out a way to make and import your own tilesets, but in the beginning when I had just spent 50 and tax on the game, it was a disappointment for it to have such poor mod support right off the bat.

    I have heard good th
  • by saberworks ( 267163 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:17AM (#8110751)
    If you want to try something different (and altogether more fun, although I -may- be biased ;), try Jedi Knight. The editor/game is based on sectors as opposed to brushes, so you edit in negative space. You basically have a block of clay and you carve your world out of it. Of course, my site's tutorials section is the best place to learn it :) http://www.massassi.net/
  • Game Editors (Score:3, Informative)

    by CFBMoo1 ( 157453 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:17AM (#8110753) Homepage
    THe most experience I'd have with game editors is the Aurora Toolset for NWN. I think it's one of the more flexable yet easy to use game editors out there.

    Back around Feb 2003 I started an online module called Mandrake that went well over 90+ areas when I decided to move on. I had a good base of players too, not near as much as some places but a good base. Since then I've worked on about 4 other module designs of my own including an arena one for the PVP section.

    I'd say the scripting language and the flexability to created hundreds of possible paths for a module are it's greatest power over all the other editors out there. It's also relativly easy to use, the only thing is you don't get a nice print bound manual for the scripting though the script editor in there has a nice help reference side bar. It's also really nice to be able to script in counter measures for cheaters.

    I'm not sure I'd ever want to do this professionally though. Seems it would make a better hobby then a job but thats my opinion.
  • by Daath ( 225404 ) <lp AT coder DOT dk> on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:20AM (#8110763) Homepage Journal
    One game I am buying as soon as it's released, is Far Cry [farcry-thegame.com], they're using CryTek [crytek.com]'s CryEngine [crytek.com], which also has a realtime in-game-editor.
    If you haven't already tried far cry (single player demo), I suggest you read Boomtown's review [boomtown.net], and download it [boomtown.net] - no time to waste! Hurry! :)
  • by Daath ( 225404 ) <lp AT coder DOT dk> on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:28AM (#8110800) Homepage Journal
    CryTek has a video you can download [farcry.de] - towards the end, they demo the level design mode! It's sooooo cool!
  • well.... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Marsala ( 4168 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:31AM (#8110813) Homepage

    Speaking as a player, I'd encourage you to seek out any competitive communities built around the game(s) you're interested in designing for. While Neverwinter Nights is a cool enough game, I'd also reccomend you check out getting some experience with the "Quake-related" FPS games.

    One of the tools that's used to create maps for several game is Radiant [qeradiant.com] (supported on both Linux and Windows) and supports a bunch of games. Mappers familiar with Quake3 were able to transfer that knowledge to RtCW when it came out, and in turn that was transferrable to ET. Plugins for other games (Half Life, Soldier of Fortune, and some others I'm blanking on) is also available.

    Couple that with experience working with 3DSmax (or gmax [discreet.com] if you're on a budget) creating models, and you should be good to go.

    If you're also looking for ideas on what to make maps of, I'd suggest trolling around and seeing if you can find a competitive community for the games you're interested in designing for. Stuff like Half-Life and its mods (most notably Counter Strike), Quake3/RtCW/ET, and the MOHAA/CoD stuff are going to be hot ticket items right now. Organizations like The Team Warfare League [teamwarfare.com] or the Cyber Athlete League [caleague.com] might be worth a look to get an idea of how people are using the games and what kind of maps and what features they'd benefit from.

    Looking to the future, everyone's pointing at stuff like Doom3 and Half-Life2 (obviously). But it might be worth taking a look at games like Far Cry and Painkiller as possible sleeper hits coming up on the horizon.

    Good luck in your efforts. :)

  • Don't Do It! (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:42AM (#8110861)
    I've worked in the gaming industry for 12 years. I hate to sound negative but it sucks. Games never turn out as good as you know they could be. Money is often flushed down the toilet on stupid things when it should be going into the software development. I've worked on a number of high profile projects over the years and the companies I've worked for never cease to amaze me. They announce release dates they know they can't possibly meet, show shots of the game that are CGI animation made especially for promos when they know the game will never look that good, ship software they know is faulty, and scores of other things I hate. In all I hate it and I'm getting out. I would advise you to consider focusing your talent in another area and save yourself the trouble. Sorry to sound bitter.
  • Game Design Books (Score:3, Informative)

    by rjjm ( 721631 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:44AM (#8110866) Journal
    In case no one's mentioned them, I really enjoyed Mark Saltzman's Game Design: Secrets of the Sages [amazon.co.uk]. May be a bit dated (1999), but good reading on the genre. I understand he had a new one out in 2003 called Masters of the Game [amazon.co.uk] - don't know what it's like though.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @05:55AM (#8110893)
    The only down-side to using hammer is that when HL2 comes out no one can garentee it'll use hammer

    Good news - it's using Hammer [valve-erc.com]. Okay, so it's been hugely upgraded, but it's still the program we know and love.

    Apparently the Half-Life 2 SDK will come with a version of Softimage XSI for modelling purposes, so no more dodgy cracked copies of 3D Studio Max are needed.
  • by The Analog Kid ( 565327 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @07:41AM (#8111225)
    It is really hard to get into the gaming industry, my brother knows a guy who now makes maps for a living. He was involved in American McGee's Alice. He also worked in Ritual, Rogue, and Gearbox. I think he was also working on Counterstrike:CZ, but go canned when they stopped developement, which is another issue all on it's own. This guy who I'm not mentioning names, only got a job in the industry because John Carmack played his map.

    Another issue is job security, you have to make your own, but then again pretty much in every job today you have some degree of doing that. However, even if you have made your job security there is nothing that can protect you from being laid off when you finish the game your working on(ie Ritual employees after Elite Force 2). Those people were quickly hired by others but I don't know if you want to be moving around so much.

    So to wrap things up, you better be good at what you do, you better have a contact in the industry, or hope someone recognizes you. Lastly, your going to always run the risk of being let go and have to move somewhere else.
  • Re: UED... 50% match (Score:4, Informative)

    by EvilXenu ( 706326 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @09:26AM (#8111699)
    If you are serious about learning how to use UnrealED, take a look at what 3dbuzz.com has to offer: free video training modules (VTMs) on how to use the thing. Some of the modules are pretty hefty -- weighing in at 100+MB on some lessons. These can be found here [3dbuzz.com].

    On a somewhat related note, if you pre-order the special edition of UT2K4 you'll get the VTMs on a DVD.
  • Re:well.... (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @09:30AM (#8111726)
    Speaking as a game designer, I can't stress how good this advice is.

    When we go to higher level designers, experience helps, but the most important thing is the portfolio. Most importantly, you should be building maps in the genre of the company you are applying. If you are making an FPS, you submit Unreal or Quake maps, preferably using the respective tool that we use. The reason is that a NWN map is built very differently from a Max Payne map. Even deathmatch maps use different skills than single player maps.

    Despite what has been said on this forum, level design is not architecting. We don't build houses that fit well on a property that are structurally sound. We want to see levels that show good creativity; good flow, aligned textures, good use of the existing widgets.

    Can you pump out a good level fast? Can you build levels that look better than they actually are while staying in the memory budget and aren't framerate whores?

    We also like to see level designers have some artistic skill and skill with a modelling tool. 3DSMax is good. Maya is better.

    Most importantly, you need to show that you can create cool stuff within the toolset that we use, in the genre of games that we are building. So pick a genre and use that tool. Many times the tool might not be good or easy to use, but it might be what we have to work with daily.
  • by PainKilleR-CE ( 597083 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @12:18PM (#8113355)
    Don't be fooled, there is a lot of overhead in these subscription based games that eat away your profit. In fact, as with all other genres, only the top selling MMORPGs make any money at all.

    Of course, that's what they keep saying, but every developer out there that can do the math realizes that the subscription fees alone are the equivalent of selling 3-4 games per year to every subscriber, which is why the MMO games that make good money make most of their money from users that spend more than 6 months as subscribers.

    With good management and a solid team, you make your initial costs back right away, and the more bandwidth you buy, the less it costs per user, so of course the more users you have, the more you make per user. The only time they lose money on an MMO game is when they have significant launch problems and/or low sales (don't recoup cost of initial development), and they have to maintain the servers for a certain amount of time regardless of whether or not they have enough people playing to justify it.

    The cost of maintaining the servers, supporting the users, and developing new content is significantly less than the cost of developing 3 or 4 more games, yet they bring in that $10-15 per month per user, or $120-180 per year per user. If you can afford to secure the bandwidth for several thousand users at the start, you'll find that it costs significantly less than $5/user for that portion of the costs. Support costs go down over time, not only because bugs are fixed, but also because bugs are found, categorized, and added to the support scripts. To add content, you don't need a team the size of the original development team, you simply need artists and coders that understand whatever system your game has for adding that content and are familiar with the world you're trying to create.

    Beyond all of that, if an MMO game were made with a smaller number of players in mind, and managed properly to meet the budget that would require, it could be quite profitable, as long as it didn't have an explosion in player numbers (at that point it might fall on it's face if the developers are unprepared to expand capacity, and it's much more expensive to expand capacity than to build for it from the start).
  • Re:I'm curious... (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @01:16PM (#8113956)
    Gilmoure - that's the stupidest answer I've ever heard. Of course there are going to be challenges, and he can't just walk into the door of a game studio with no skills and get a job (although you could practically do that in the early 90's, before anyone thought of it as a viable career). Moreover, a lot of the top names in games right NOW (like Carmark) are people who started programming 2D side-scrollers as teens in the early 90's, back when it was possible to make a competitive game for PC with little or no education, a lot of drive and a lot of sweat. Nowadays, making a competitive game involves working in a team of around 30 highly-specialized, trained game developers, for console hardware that is NOT commonly available to home developers. To get a job in this industry, you need a solid background in CS, 3D art, and/or storytelling. Having a friend who works in a studio is a major plus. But as the industry matures, a solid college education, as well as demonstrated personal drive, is becoming a more important factor in the hiring process.

    I had no experience developing or playing games before my later college years. But I was enthusiastic about programming game engines, and I pursued a game-development specialty MS, went to trade events, and (sure enough) landed a job. It's difficult work, but rewarding if you enjoy the small-company atmosphere and can handle the stress.
  • by PainKilleR-CE ( 597083 ) on Wednesday January 28, 2004 @01:36PM (#8114184)
    CAD work is all about distances and areas. It will help you adjust to the tools somewhat, but Level design is all about the feel and exact measurements don't matter too much. Nobody cares if your door is 6'8" or 7' really. You can stretch the texture to fit in a way that you just can't stretch a door.

    You're right to a degree, but even CAD work can have elements of design to it that aren't just about measuring the space. Games tend to deal in units equivalent to the height of the standard player character (or half the height in the cases I've experienced), so instead of working in feet or inches you're working mostly in ~3' units. Still, if your door is only 3' tall, your players are going to have to duck to get through it, and you'd better hope that you planned for that in the dynamics of the level.

    Yes, there are more considerations in level design, such as game balance, the level of detail and number of polygons in an area (you can use more detail and polygons in a single-player level than in multiplayer, for instance, because you can better control how much is on the screen at one time in single player), the pace that people go through an area, and so on.

    In CAD your considerations are function first, implementing a design that satisfies your customer. These things can move over to level design perfectly well, and if you can use AutoCAD, for instance, you can probably find your way through almost any level design software. You won't necessarily be a good level designer just because you can design a warehouse or office space in a CAD program, but it doesn't hurt if you can design a level in AutoCAD and use the available converters to port it into most available games (I just double-checked because it's been quite a while before I messed with a level editor, but there are tools available for Quake, Half-Life, and Unreal (multiple versions of Quake and Unreal) to convert AutoCAD drawings into formats native to their respective map editing tools). Still, any developer looking for level designers is going to be looking for people with at least some familiarity with their tools, so the bulk of the work you show them should be in their tools. The rest just doesn't hurt if your designs are good.

"I've seen it. It's rubbish." -- Marvin the Paranoid Android

Working...