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Itagaki Talks Ninja Gaiden Difficulty, Sequel, DOA 67

Posted by simoniker from the gaming-age-celeste dept.
Thanks to Kikizo for its interview with Tecmo's Tomonobu Itagaki regarding "Ninja Gaiden 2, Code Chronus, Dead or Alive Ultimate, DOA4 and PSP, [and] Nintendo DS development", conducted at the E3 Expo in Los Angeles. Itagaki addresses the complaints of some about Ninja Gaiden's extreme difficulty, posturing: "It was done intentionally of course. The testers who tested this game went nuts. At first it was easier, but when the testers said 'this is too difficult', I made it even more difficult", before mentioning that a Ninja Gaiden 2 is planned, and "the concept will not change", but "it will be after [development of] Dead or Alive 4", which in turn will be produced after the nearly completed Dead Or Alive Ultimate, the Xbox Live online-enabled title which "takes the first two Dead or Alive titles, adds all new environments, a novel online setup, a higher degree of interactivity in its levels, new movies, new costumes, and more."
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Itagaki Talks Ninja Gaiden Difficulty, Sequel, DOA More

Itagaki Talks Ninja Gaiden Difficulty, Sequel, DOA

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  • Good game (Score:4, Interesting)

    by redune45 ( 194113 ) <slashdot.redune@com> on Sunday May 30, 2004 @10:37AM (#9289415) Homepage
    I love Ninja Gaiden
    I just wish that I had the patience to put up with the riculous difficulty.
    I've even managed to destroy one of my controllers in frustration. I just don't see why he couldn't have put an easy or normal option in the game, let us choose how hard we want it to be.

    • Re:Good game (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Liquidrage ( 640463 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @12:25PM (#9289864)
      I'm glad you mentioned the controller.
      I'm 29. I hadn't thrown a controller since Alex Kidd in Miracle World back in the Sega Master System days.
      Yet, I threw it once playing Ninja Gaiden on the X-Box.

      I'm OK with them not having the option to make it easier though. It was a throw back game (pun is optional). It force me to get good at the game. If you've made it through most of the game, go back and start over and it's actually not that hard. It's just instead of bring a modern "just play through, little skill required" like most games, it makes you get good. And I respect that.
      • Controller breakage stories? Man, I could tell you stories [the-elite.net]...

      • Re:Good game (Score:3, Interesting)

        by DeepHurtn! ( 773713 )
        I'm OK with them not having the option to make it easier though. It was a throw back game (pun is optional). It force me to get good at the game. If you've made it through most of the game, go back and start over and it's actually not that hard. It's just instead of bring a modern "just play through, little skill required" like most games, it makes you get good. And I respect that.

        Exactly! Some people don't realize that most games today are easy. Now, there's nothing wrong with it -- I loved Prince of

  • Boasting? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Andy Smith ( 55346 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @10:48AM (#9289465)
    It was done intentionally of course. The testers who tested this game went nuts. At first it was easier, but when the testers said 'this is too difficult', I made it even more difficult
    Interesting concept. Also known as: Bad management

    Imagine the quote from a film company: We played the movie to test audiences and they said they really hated one character, so we put some of that character's deleted scenes back in.

    Or how about: Here at Slashdot we get a lot of complaints about factual errors and duplicate stories. Well would ya just look at the place now...

    • Re:Boasting? (Score:4, Funny)

      by KDR_11k ( 778916 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @11:42AM (#9289673)
      We played the movie to test audiences and they said they really hated one character, so we put some of that character's deleted scenes back in.

      Star Wars Episode 1?

    • Re:Boasting? (Score:3, Funny)

      by lpontiac ( 173839 )
      Imagine the quote from a film company: We played the movie to test audiences and they said they really hated one character, so we put some of that character's deleted scenes back in.

      Yousa all wenta see the movie ANYhow!

      • hehe, I was thinking of Jar Jar when I wrote that :-)

        But I liked him so I guess I'm kinda disproving my own point. Oh well, saves someone else from doing it!
        • hehe, I was thinking of Jar Jar when I wrote that :-)

          But I liked him so I guess I'm kinda disproving my own point. Oh well, saves someone else from doing it!
          If you aren't at -5 Flamebait/Troll on this comment by the end of the day I declare Slashdot to be well and truly broken....
          • I've lost count of the number of times when I've made a point of mentioning that I liked Jar Jar, and the result is that a few people are surprised but many more people say that they liked him too. He was a funny character! I don't believe he was as widely hated as some people would have us believe.

            But then, I first saw Episode I on TV and I didn't have the huge expectations/demands of it that many Slashdot readers did. What I got was an entertaining kids film with a cute CGI character that made me laugh.

    • Re:Boasting? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by illuminata ( 668963 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @12:20PM (#9289841) Journal
      It wasn't a matter of bad management. Itagaki knew what market he was aiming Ninja Gaiden for. Gamers shouldn't act like he made a bad decision just because the game isn't for them. Ninja Gaiden is meant for good players who want a challenge. If it's too hard for you, there's nothing wrong with playing another game.

      Here's another example from the film world. David Mamet gives a test screening for his new film, but a decent portion of the audience complains because they don't understand the dialogue between characters. So, while doing the final edit, David sticks a bunch more of that dialogue into the movie because he knows that his fans will eat it up.

      • Re:Boasting? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by PhotoBoy ( 684898 )
        Did he really know the market he was aiming for? Was it wise to release a game so hard that only very skillful players could beat it? Is that a good market to aim for?

        Ninja Gaiden received lots of hype, all of the gaming press were hyping it for months, it got great reviews, and it became something of a best seller. This usually means more than just hardcore gamers will buy the game. And if you read the forums of various gaming sites the overwhelming opinion seems to be that the game was too hard.

        Surely a

    • Re:Boasting? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by cgenman ( 325138 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @12:41PM (#9289941) Homepage
      Interesting concept. Also known as: Bad management

      Imagine the quote from a film company: We played the movie to test audiences and they said they really hated one character, so we put some of that character's deleted scenes back in.

      It could very well be that the testers became complacent by the easier sections of the game. When the difficulty ramped up as high as Team Ninja wanted the testers felt the change and felt that it was too sudden / too strong. To smooth out the perception of disjoint in the difficulty curve, Team Ninja could have either made the hard sections easier, or made the easy sections harder. They chose the latter.

      Considering all of the press that this game has recieved, it was the right choice. Compare this outing to the recent update of Strider... Which was truer to the source material? Which was the better game?

      Imagine this quote from a film company: We played Lost Highway to test audiences and they said they didn't it, so we're simplifying the storyline and making things clearer. Sometimes it's best not to do what your audience wants.

    • Re:Boasting? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by atarrri ( 580364 )
      I completely agree; part of a testers job is difficulty balancing. I've never heard of testers saying the game they are testing is too hard. Usually they think it's too easy because they play it so much. In the rare case that the testers think the game is too hard then something is definitely wrong. Personally I can only speak from my own experience and I put down Ninja Gaiden half way through; if it was slightly easier I might have continued.
    • Bullshit. Believe it or not, there is a small faction of gamers out there (of which I'm a member) that LIKES hard-as-fuck games. We like shooters (Gradius, Raiden, Dodonpachi, Mars Matrix), we like platformers (Mickey Mania, Chakan), we like beat-em-ups (Final Fight, Batman and Robin), and we like them HARD. The harder the better. Konami realized how much they fucked up Contra and finally went back to the old-school side scrolling run and gun style, and the game was hard as hell. Guys like me loved it, whim
      • if we pay for the game, it should be what we want. we shouldnt have to put up with assholes like you saying what we want is wrong. if tecmo knew their audience there wouldn't be these complaints.

        its all to simple to make a health modifier (ie: 0.5) to make the game have a cheap easy mode for those who want it.

        • Bullshit, yet again. You buy a game knowing full well what it is. It's not up to the developer to handhold you ass through it. If you buy something you don't have the skills to play, either sell it and move on or nut up and get better at it. You had these complaints when Contra: Shattered Soldier came out, but it hit its target audience PERFECTLY.

          In fact, let's turn this around. I'm going to start bitching whenever a game is too easy. Would that be fine? I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but no
          • I'm going to start bitching whenever a game is too easy. Would that be fine?

            Yes it would be. People have been complaining Wind Waker is too easy. Again, it would've been easier for nintendo to put a health difficulty modifier variable and let us set it to 2

            If people knew it was too hard they wouldnt have bought it and there wouldnt have been these complaints.

            • Meh. I bought Final Fantasy VII because I'd heard it wasn't anything like any RPG before and that it was just an amazing game overall. A couple of weeks later, right before the final boss battle, I gave it up. At that point I was playing just to beat the game and eventually I just didn't care anymore. Did I whine to the manufacturer that it was too much like other RPG's? Did I complain that it was too easy? No, I didn't. I put it on my shelf and moved on. Wen you buy a game you either know exactly what you'

      • Wow. (Re:Boasting?) (Score:3, Insightful)

        by smcn ( 87571 )
        I completely understand a person having a preference towards games that are harder, but insulting people who enjoy RPGs or other games that don't require masterful hand-eye coordination is ridiculous.

        Games are meant to be fun, not a contest to see who's more "leet". Grow up a little.
        • Meh. Whatever. You think that's bad you should hear the amount of shit I give people that like Resident Evil and similar games, like pretty much everyone I know that plays games. Go on and play wuss games all you like, but I do reserve the right to make fun of you and hope you'd do the same in reserve. There's nothing fun about agreeing on everything and even less fun in not voicing your disagreement loudly and with a lot of taunting.

          And yes, games are meant to be a contest. If they weren't we wouldn't h
    • This idea was a good one. A harder difficulty increases the time it takes to beat the game, and thus makes the gamer happier. There were several parts in the game that took me a while to overcome but i still had fun doing it. And those of you who can't stand a decent challenge like the one in Ninja Gaiden are just a bunch of pansies.

  • Ninja Gaiden is SUPPOSED to be hard! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dark Nexus ( 172808 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @10:49AM (#9289466)
    I suspect many fans of the original NES Ninja Gaiden games, like myself, would have been annoyed if it HADN'T been more difficult than most games these days.

    The original is one of my favourite NES games of all time, even though I was never able to finish it. Just too hard. It wasn't uncommon to have trouble getting past the first area of the first world if you were new to the game.

    Gamers now are spoiled by excessive (and therefore forgiving of dying) save points, and difficulty through gimmics. Once you figure out the gimmic, it tends to get a LOT easier. It's nice to see a game that's just HARD.

    • Re:Ninja Gaiden is SUPPOSED to be hard! (Score:4, Interesting)

      by MilenCent ( 219397 ) <johnwhNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Sunday May 30, 2004 @02:23PM (#9290591) Homepage
      Credential establishment:

      I played a lot of those old NES games. I've beaten Castlevania without continuing. Gone through Mario 2 -the whole game, no warping- without losing a life. I've been to the secret levels in Mario Lost Levels you can only get to if you don't warp. I've finished Zelda (first quest at least) with a wooden sword and no ring, and almost finished the second that way, too. I've beaten Golgo 13, Rygar in 3 hours starting from first picking up the game, Metroid without maps fast enough to get the legendary "bikini" ending, and over 300 hundred other games.

      Mario Sunshine's void levels are my favorite parts of that game. I've beaten bloody Athena, for crying out loud.

      Main argument:

      So please understand than when I say that Ninja Gaiden is too damn hard, that I know what I'm talking about. It's not that I didn't finish both of the NJ games I played (1 and 2), it's that I didn't enjoy the experience. Back then I played video games fairly obsessively. I would not have the patience for a Ninja Gaiden today, because I have better respect for the limits of my free time.

      The original Castlevania is a game that's very similar to NES Ninja Gaiden in many ways, but better in most respects. NJ's primary contributions to the genre are cinema scenes (which were either nonexistant or very rare beforehand) and wall-jumping, which was very frustrating to deal with.

      It's not that games aren't easier these days than they were -- they are. But they're also in 3D, which is an intrinsically more difficult environment to operate in. And if video games, good ones, are ever going to truly break into the mainstream, we've got to pay greater attention to balanced difficulty.

      Diatribe: complete!

      • Re:Ninja Gaiden is SUPPOSED to be hard! (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Apparently you played those games with a very different mindset than you played NG today. I have never been bothered to play through even Mario of those games you listed. Yet I still managed to play through NG. Actually I'd even go out on a limb and say that once you get the feeling of the game it's not that too hard at all. (Although I did replay some parts more than 3 times before I got past them.)

        While the game sure is hard the controls are really tight and I never got the feeling that the controls lagg
        • It's funny how the most insightful shit on Slashdot is in the games area.

          I am a diehard shooter fan. Dodonpachi, Mars Matrix, Giga Wing, anything with an Unavoidable Wall of Pink gets my attention. These are games that are damn near IMPOSSIBLE to beat unless you have serious skills. I don't. I die a lot. So why do I play? Because I WANT TO GET BETTER. Not everyone can play them. Hell, most people can't even keep up with their own ship. Does that make these games any less good? Hell no! That's what makes
      • I agree with you, except that I still think that we really need to give a nummber games more difficulty than they have, because they're really turning into interactive movies. One question, though; did you ever beat Battletoads?

        Rob
        • My apologies, I was referring to NES Ninja Gaiden -- NOT the X-box game, which I haven't played.

          A lot of people have complained about the new game's difficulty, but I don't know how similar it is to the original. I'm just hoping it's not real similar.
          • I'm just hoping it's not real similar.

            It really isn't all that similar. Itagaki even mentioned in one interview that the reason he included the original games (which he didn't work on) is to show how much better his version is. :D

            He's right too - the new Ninja Gaiden is hard, but with really none of the cheap kind of deaths you would get in the original series (example: bottomless pits, of which the new NG has like one that you can fall inif you aren't careful). It also lets you buy healing potions to sa
      • I'm curious: has anyone who played NG also played Super Monkey Ball? How do they compare, difficulty-wise?
    • Dude, there is a fine line between hard, and ninjas busting in your door and killing your best friend while you're playing the game.

  • People whine too much about NG (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Inexile2002 ( 540368 ) * on Sunday May 30, 2004 @11:22AM (#9289606) Homepage Journal
    I was hard, but it wasn't impossible. Once I learned how to actually play, I finished the game in around a week and a half. Sure, it was hard at first, and fighting the second boss on horseback, or the first time you fight the fiend chick were freaking crazy. But it's just a steep learning curve. Once I finished it, it unlocks a third "Very Hard" option and a secret costume. Pure bliss.

    There is a market for really hard games, and if you don't want to play them - don't. But personally, it would have pissed me off to have finished Ninja Gaiden in 6 to 7 hours and it would have pissed me off if the same strategies worked against every enemy. What I loved about that game what that you had to learn how to actually fight within the context of that game. You had to learn to exploit an enemy's weaknesses, you had to learn how to use the terrain to your advantage, when to use your Ninpo and when to save it. In the end, it was one of the best games I ever played - if it had been easier... it would have just been eye candy. People who want easy games should buy easy games.

  • hum (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sonatinas ( 308999 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @11:23AM (#9289612) Journal
    The common complaint agaisnt Ninja Gaiden is its difficulty. I really do not see the difficulity. I believe gamers might find it difficult is because they do not use useful tactics to beat the enemies. Mashing buttons and just killing everything that moves is not a useful tactic. If you actually use counters and the soul charge move so you can kill enemies in chains( the move the first boss explains to you) you should not have that much of a problem. Also, learning how to use the weapons and when to use them. Also, if u upgrade your wooden sword to the unlabored flawlessness, the game is even easier.

    THe key to tackling games is to actully think about what u are doing and dont button mash and let the stylish moves make you think u have to do them. Espically in Ninja Gaiden, u can use about 5 moves and finish the game.

  • Difficulty (Score:2, Insightful)

    by dstillz ( 704959 )
    Ninja Gaiden isn't actually that difficult. It's a fighting game at the core, and repetition of combos is your saving grace.

    The camera just sucks. The camera is your real enemy, especially during the pointless platforming sequences.
  • Ninja Gaiden is an amazing game in many, many ways. Sure, it's also extremely difficult, but not for the right reasons. In many areas, it is indeed the camera that would put you in comprimising situations that would often lead to high levels of frustration. There were some other obnoxious things I encountered (ie, not being able to change weapons or even use health items while an enemy's health meter was draining, oftentimes leave you wide open for an attack - wtf?).

    I'm sorry, but I think it should be the
    • You know what? The game was made more for the fans of the originals than the fans of the genre in general, otherwise it would have been called something else instead of dragging out a name that people who weren't fans of the original wouldn't care about. Not making it require high amounts of skill to get through would have annoyed many of that target audience, and I know THAT for a fact. The Ninja Gaiden series has NEVER been easy, and was never meant for the casual gamer.

    • Re:It wasn't the game itself... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by DeadScreenSky ( 666442 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @05:40PM (#9291735)
      I'm sorry, but I think it should be the goal of someone who creates a game to make it as much fun for everyone interested in that particular genre as possible.

      Yeah, except going the lowest-common denominator route can turn off a huge part of your potential audience. I enjoyed Ninja Gaiden partially because it was challenging (though not as hard as many people complain - think tactical, gamers!). If it was easier I wouldn't have enjoyed it so much, and I am far from alone.

      And you can't ignore the fact (even though you attempt to) that Team Ninja made the game pretty fair in terms of difficulty. There are what, only two parts of the game with 'instant kill pits', done largely for good game design reasons (like under the monastery - you can't just let the player jump all the way down, but you don't want the player taking falling damage for the other 99% of the game)? Compare that to a game like the Shinobi remake or your average platformer (hell, even classic games like Mario64!), which are filled with that kind of 'one mistake=death' annoyance. NG also allows you to build up as much money as you want (via various bat areas), so you can buy as much health potions as your skill level requires. Try playing something like Genma Onimusha, which has similar mechanics (lots of respawning enemies), a camera that is literally ten times or so worse, and a complete inability to buy health potions. You have to beat the game with what the designers give you - get to the last boss without enough potions, too bad. May as well restart. Even the 'bad camera' you talk about is pretty damn good, because it is paired with the ability to block 95+% of attacks with the touch of a button, and all enemies make noises so you know when an attack is coming even if it isn't visible (another thing Genma Onimusha screws up). Ninja Gaiden isn't easy, and maybe some parts could be tightened up a little or smoothed out, but it is intensely fair.

      If you just started playing games recently (say the PSX era), or if you predominently play all of the recent (and easy) Nintendo games, Ninja Gaiden just probably isn't for you. There's nothing wrong with people like Itagaki making games for the millions of old school (and nowadays mostly Western) gamers that are so often ignored by most other developers. We really, really appreciate it, and the game's sales reflect that.
    • Bullshit. Not every game has to appeal to everyone. You can't make games only for the whining pussy crowd, because guys like me that actually like to PLAY games and not just mash buttons. If NG was easy, it would have alienated everyone it was trying to appeal to. See also: Contra

      How can he say things like that? Because he's not a whining pussy gamer and his game wasn't designed to appeal to the Final Fantasy lovers of the world. Deal with it.

  • People seem to miss the point (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Tuvai ( 783607 ) <zeikfried@gmail.com> on Sunday May 30, 2004 @01:17PM (#9290183) Journal
    A truly challenging game is hard to come by these days, for every Ninja Gaiden, Viewtiful Joe and F-Zero GX, there are 2 dozen games that bow to eye candy and plot development over actual difficulty.
    Sadly this is a curse that has been steadily gaining momentum since the PlayStation era and throughout, where the craftsmenship of demanding perfection/reactions within a 2D environment were sacrificed at the alter of style over substance. Itagaki needs to be lauded for his attidude, not criticised.
    • Are you joking? I found Viewitful Joe and F-Zero pretty difficult. They both look great, but I found Joe somewhat hard as a platformer (my younger brother beat it during a rental - I myself am no spring chicken as far as video games are concerned, but being more into strategy RPGs these days, my platforming skills have rusted away).

      F-Zero is nuts. My kid brother is great at games but can't make it through all of F-Zero's story mode challenges, even considering we've both gotten over the crazy initial di
    • I've played two out of three of those games, so:

      Ninja Gaiden: the one I haven't played. I agree with the previous post, the designer seems like a real jerk. This is a man who needs hormone supression therapy - his testosterone levels seems to be through the roof. DOA Extreme Volleyball is proof enough of this fact to me. The thing that the people complaining about "difficulty whiners," who are whining themselves in my opinion, forget is that if you fork over the cash for a game you expect to get some e
    • Can you please take out Ninja Gaiden from the "challenging game" list? Ninja Gaiden is not challenging. It is unfair.

      F-Zero GX and Viewtiful Joe are perfect examples of hardcore gaming. You are punished harshly for mistakes. But everytime you are, the game slaps you into line and almost shows you what you did wrong, right before it tears into your chest and pulls out your heart. That split-second of clarity: "Oh f**k, I should have gone left" Challenging? Yes. Joypad breaking? Yes. Unfair? No. You just nee
  • While I will most certainly agree that a lot of games are a bit too eays now, Ninja Gaiden was pretty difficult. A learning curve should be gradual, and having such a difficult boss (the horsemen) so early in the game is a strong deterrant for many gamers. I have been playing computer and console games for over 25 years, and I have to say that NG is one of the more difficult ones out there.

    On one hand, making such a difficult game can be good, for some reasons cited by previous posters. But on the other

    • On one hand, making such a difficult game can be good, for some reasons cited by previous posters. But on the other hand, it is bad for several reasons, one of which is this:

      Harder games are for a niche market.

      However, this niche market isn't really fufilled as most games currently available appear to be jokingly easy. As a result, you will end up with guarenteed sales from gamers wanting a challenge.

      If a game is too easy, I'll just breeze through it in a bored state. C&C:Generals is one example -

      • As I said at the beginning of my post:
        While I will most certainly agree that a lot of games are a bit too eays now, Ninja Gaiden was pretty difficult.
        I alluded that games should be more challenging if i said they are "a bit too easy", which I, funnily enough, did.

        I also said:
        And having added in a difficulty select at the beginning of the game - of the "EASY" variety - would have helped the game be more enjoyable for a large number of people.
        All these points were covered.

  • Itagaki is crazy (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 30, 2004 @02:52PM (#9290776)
    Having this interview translated by what I assume was a marketing flack probably evened out some of his lunacy. From the times I've seen him at events and the interviews I've read, it seems that he always wears a lizard skin jacket, sunglasses, jeans and boots. He's quite tall for a Japanese guy - over 6 feet with the boots on, so he has a certain impact. But that's just clothes - anyone can dress like a rockstar.

    It's the way he interacts with people and the things he says when there's no minder around that lets you know he's totally insane. Check out Tim Roberts' account of meeting him at E3 http://www.livejournal.com/users/108/42763.html [livejournal.com], or the Tokyopia interview [tokyopia.com].

    Mind you, when I say that he's crazy, that's at least half-positive. He seems to pretty much do what he wants, and he's been successful enough that obviously Tecmo is happy to let him have his way with things. That means that his games have been designed with only one purpose in mind: making him happy. That's miles better than a crappy movie-license game, or some other forgettable game that's been designed by committee. Ninja Gaiden may be too hard, but it's certainly original - we could use more lunatics like Itagaki.
  • Is it me, or does this guy come off as a bit of a prick? Maybe if I liked his games more I wouldn't think so.
  • Any you guys complaining about it being too hard actually play through the game? First time through is awful, but by the second time you go through it and know what works, the normal difficulty level is cake - it's an EASY game once you know how to play.

    However, I do agree that an easy difficulty level would be good for casual gamers/people who paid for the game but can't get past first boss...
  • There are two different types of difficulty: challenging and frustrating. NG has a lot of both, but the latter does not improve the game. Finally beating a boss through skill is gratifying, but does it make up for all the time wasted running back from the distant save point, beating up the same low-level monsters, and navigating the same jumping puzzle? Losing to a pile of enemies because you weren't good enough is one thing, losing to the same pile of enemies because the camera decided to aim at the wall i

  • OB: Penny arcade comic (Score:3, Funny)

    by satanami69 ( 209636 ) on Sunday May 30, 2004 @07:47PM (#9292533) Homepage
    Apropos.

    http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-03 -08 [penny-arcade.com]

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