Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Businesses Entertainment Games Your Rights Online

EA Reconsiders Overtime Position 511

bippy writes "An internal memo leaked from EA to its employees says that the company plans to make more employees elgible for overtime. Rusty Rueff, senior vice president of human resources, bemoans the bad press and begs forgiveness: "As much as I don't like what's been said about our company and our industry, I recognize that at the heart of the matter is a core truth." GamesIndustry.biz has commentary on the story as well.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

EA Reconsiders Overtime Position

Comments Filter:
  • It's about time. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:41AM (#10987439)
    It's about time they changed their tune and started paying developers what they're worth.
    • by SnapShot ( 171582 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:10PM (#10987820)
      This is the quote that burns me up: "[developers] relish flexibility".

      This is supposed to imply that a salary-based schedule allows professionals a little flexibility in their work hours not like the poor blue-collar bastards that have to punch a clock.

      Salary was supposed to mean that some weeks you work a little more, some weeks a little less, but in general you puting 40 hours a week. The entire concept of salary is meaningless if your continued employment depends upon you working 60+ hours a week.
  • Everyone, except (Score:3, Insightful)

    by chris_eineke ( 634570 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:42AM (#10987455) Homepage Journal
    the company plans to make more employees elgible for overtime.
    Sorry if I'm cynic, but I doubt they will make more programmers elgible for payed overtime. Maybe the business kids, but the programmers?

    No sir. Not gonna happen. Absolutely not. I assure you.
  • behold... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Rev.LoveJoy ( 136856 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:42AM (#10987456) Homepage Journal
    the tyranny of the majority!

    Wheee,
    -- RLJ

  • Hey EA... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dethl ( 626353 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:43AM (#10987457)
    You're finally learning that if you treat your employees right, they won't ruin your reputation.
    • re: hey EA... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ed.han ( 444783 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:50AM (#10987564) Journal
      actually, that's got me thinking about who leaked the memo:

      1. ticked off developer who sees this as nothing but HRspeke for "we feel your pain" and expect this to amount to nothing more than a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
      2. happy developer who wants people to know that EA is trying to address some serious problems.
      3. EA's PR group.

      ed
  • leaked? whatever. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Karma Sucks ( 127136 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:43AM (#10987466)
    This reads more like a PR stunt than anything else. Expect work conditions to be more of the same at EA. The same, constant, broken promises.
    • by PTBNL ( 686884 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:48AM (#10987534) Homepage
      I agree. This is likely total PR bullshit.

      I work for a Fortune 500 software maker (non-games), and we get promises like this all the time. In fact, I was just talking to a co-worker who was promised that they were eliminating overtime this season. Last year, he worked Saturdays during the crunch. This year, it's been Saturday and Sundays. And this is a totally seasonal job, very predictable. This is not a company pushing to meet some artificial marketing-inflicted deadline.

      The bottom line is that big companies will continue to find new and creative ways to milk productivity from people at the lowest cost possible. The game industry is no different than any other industry.
    • And what if EA is truly sincere about changing? How much different from this "PR stunt" would their response be?

      They're damned if they do, damned if they don't.

      • "They're damned if they do, damned if they don't."

        More like "they're damned until they ACTUALLY do - often". EA has been tilted so heavily toward the "damned if they don't" side of being upfront and fair, it's going to take a lot of "do's" to earn folks' trust again.

        And this would be a great way to start.

      • And what if EA is truly sincere about changing? How much different from this "PR stunt" would their response be?

        The changes would have happened first, instead of being "announced." Their employees shouldn't have been treated like shit in the first place.
    • Re:leaked? whatever. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by The-Bus ( 138060 )
      A family member of mine works an "entry level" position as an Investment Banker for the big-name firm in Manhattan. Considering she works 90+ hours per week, she's not really being paid a whole lot, but she's gaining a hell of a lot of experience. Over Thanksgiving, I asked her how she liked working so much. She said that it was stressful, but exciting. Being someone who also works a fair amount (no but-you're-posting-on-/. cracks please) it didn't bother me. A lot of family members said she was being explo
      • by Bozdune ( 68800 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:43PM (#10988390)
        I don't support mistreating workers, but that doesn't mean I'm opposed to companies having positions where you work 80-hr week jobs.

        Therefore you support mistreating workers. You can't have it both ways.

        My grandfather worked in the textile mills in Lawrence, MA, circa 1905. You worked every day for 12 hours including Saturday, and you worked hard, and if you were sick and didn't show up or you didn't work as hard as you were supposed to, then they fired you, and there were a zillion immigrants standing outside shivering waiting to take your job.

        You got paid by how much cloth you wove. If your loom broke, you sat there idle, thinking about how you were going to put food on the table that evening if the loom fixer didn't come by in time.

        The foreman would actually walk up and down the line of weavers and put his hand on their backs to see who was sweating and who wasn't, and God forbid you weren't a sweaty bastard like the rest of the slaves, because you were gone instantly.

        I have a problem with this. So should you. There is nothing conceptually different between the Lawrence mills and the environment people are describing at EA. Just wait for EA to open its "Bangalore technology center," if it hasn't done so already and I missed it.

        That's why there are labor laws. That's why unions were formed. If you let businesses make people work like slaves, pretty soon everyone will be working like slaves, and then we'll all be slaves.

        So it has to be stopped, and this HR asshole can whine all he wants about EA "discovering" that it is understaffing its projects and overworking its employees (after developing how many games, now? Come on. What a crock of shit). Anyone who didn't know whose side HR is on should read this guy's memo carefully. He promises nothing. He pretends surprise. He cajoles. He soothes. He's worried about the process. He's got great ideas for the future. The labor laws on the books are obsolete, and just don't apply to EA or other high tech jobs. Because high tech "creative" people are special. They need to work 80 hours a week. California should recognize this. It's a good thing, not a bad thing.

        Yeah right. The guy makes me puke, as does every other HR asshole I've ever worked with, both in senior management and as a programming grunt.
        • by networkBoy ( 774728 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @02:26PM (#10989971) Journal
          Understanding HR:

          HR operates on a set of three principals not unlike those of Asimov's 3 Laws of Robotics.

          1) HR must protect the company / corporate entity at all costs.
          2) HR must protect the executives & managers of a company (in order of seniority) unless that conflicts with law 1.
          3) HR must protect the companies employees unless that conflicts with law 1 or 2.

          Hope this helps some of you out there, as I learned this from personal experience.
          -nB
    • I think SOMEONE is exaggerating. America, especially when it comes to corporate responsibilty, is a paradise. A paradise where everything is cheap, easy to manufacture, and made with 100% American pride. The rest of the world is ENVIOUS of the way employees are treated here, why else do you think we keep giving all these illegals jobs here? The want a slic of the American prosperity. America is a great place to work, you get all the benefits, all the respect, and the sure knowledge that things are ge
  • by deletedaccount ( 835797 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:44AM (#10987476)
    We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year. We have resisted this in the past, not because we don't want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies

    In other words, we didn't want to pay overtime.

    Gah. Dil-bert!
    • by NardofDoom ( 821951 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:52AM (#10987588)
      We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year. We have resisted this in the past, not because we don't want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies

      Translation: "You sit on your ass all day and hardly break a sweat. Why the hell do you need overtime? So what if you never see the light of day or your family?"

      Repeat after me, people: "This wouldn't happen if we had a union."

      • Don't get me wrong - companies *do* abuse people when the company has sufficient power. Unions do provide protection to those workers, but it's not a panacea.

        In the software development realm, some programmers are 100x more productive than others. Many times there are more than 2x productivity differences between workers.

        When you move to unionized protection for the workforce, you are essentially mandating compensation for producers to be normalized. Even though you might be 5x more productive than your cube neighbor, your compensation will not reflect that value difference.

        When you're talking about manual production activities - assembly line manufacturing, product delivery (bread suppliers) etc - it makes perfect sense because each breaed delivery person has a maximum capacity that he can accomplish, and the variance in production can easily be normalized and compensation level can more easily be established.

        In this industry, do you really want to have collective bargaining where the people who are the most productive derive the least benefit from exercising their talents? If you can accomplish more in 2 hours than your coworkers, should you need to put in a full workday to be compensated the same as they are?

        I'm not convinced that the traditional model of collective bargaining is a great solution to this problem.

        Respectfully,
        Anomaly
        • Then lets find a new model, but there are definitely parts of the old model that are useful.

          My brother-in-law is a union carpenter. He described how he did nothing but cut wood for three years until he had the experience to move on to another job. With a tech union we could determine qualifications, not let Microsoft or Novell or Red Hat use tests designed to maximize their profits to determine who has what experience.

        • by SnapShot ( 171582 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:17PM (#10987919)
          You have a point, but lets be honest.

          Look around your cube farm and point to the best developer in your group. You know, the one that actually does 5 to 100 times more work than anyone else.

          Now, go over to him and tell him your salary and ask him if he makes 5 to 100 times more than you do.

          When he say, "no", feel free to laugh at him. Now explain to him that under a union he still wouldn't be making 5 to 100 times more than you, and therefore he should be glad that there isn't a union.

          Now, go back to posting on slashdot.
          • High producers (Score:5, Insightful)

            by anomaly ( 15035 ) <tom.cooper3@gmail.DEBIANcom minus distro> on Friday December 03, 2004 @03:26PM (#10990784)
            So that guy doesn't make 100x what our worst producers do, but here's what does happen:
            1. He makes ~2-2.5x what the low producer does

            2. He gets selected for the interesting problems (And gets to say - I don't want to work on that project.)

            3. He is highly regarded by his peers for being sharp - in many cases that's worth more than money. (At least to geeks it can be.)

            4. Management gives much greater latitude in terms of work hours - because they know that they can count on that person when the chips are down.

            Finally, it's important to note that many times our techies are led down the primrose path of believing that technical prowess is the most important measure of achievement.

            As a result I know a couple of really sharp developers in our organization who are treated scornfully by management. These people are brilliant, but their attitude and approach make them distasteful to everyone else who "doesn't get it" because they are "stupid" and management people are "idiots."

            People skills are critical to success, unless you're a genius on the order of John Carmack. People skills are directly related to compensation - far more than technical skills - this is why people think that their bosses are morons and all management types are idiots. The world measures on a different scale than geeks do. Unions won't fix that.

            Thanks for inviting me to post more on slashdot! :)

            Respectfully,
            Anomaly
        • If merit & productivity can be used to dictate salary, then I want those standards applied to management & executives as well. There are a fair number of idiots who are earning large amounts of money which they don't deserve, and it's only by their subordinates' damage control which prevents these idiots from destroying any organization they touch.

          In fact, the employees should be the ones casting judgement on the operational competency of the executives, since the employees have a better idea than
        • by lpp ( 115405 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:18PM (#10987935) Homepage Journal
          This argument only holds if productivity is how you are measured. In most cases, software developers who do as you suggest, accomplishing more in 2 hours than the next guy, do one of two things. They either work fewer hours, which penalizes them at review time for being "the guy who's never around" and also penalizes them if they are docked for not being there for a full 8 hours per day... OR ... they work just as many hours as the next guy, get more done, and get a few pats on the back, a little recognition, and possibly a slight increase in salary at review time, but not much else.

          As a result, except for personal pride and professionalism, which ought to be enough, there really is no benefit to being that more productive person in most cases. And when crunch time happens, it happens to the whole team. And if a union can guarantee you get paid for those extra hours, then perhaps it can be of use in this industry.
    • by c_king ( 540716 ) <chyld&atomicedit,com> on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:54AM (#10987623)
      but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies

      "In other words, we didn't want to pay overtime. "


      More like,

      "Not because we didn't want to pay overtime. Because we didn't have to pay overtime."

      chyld
  • Utter BS (Score:2, Insightful)

    by amigoro ( 761348 )
    From TFA: "As much as I don't like what's been said about our company and our industry, I recognize that at the heart of the matter is a core truth," Reuff admits in the memo. "The work is getting harder, the tasks are more complex and the hours needed to accomplish them have become a burden. We haven't yet cracked the code on how to fully minimize the crunches in the development and production process. Net, there are things we just need to fix."

    Umm in that case, hire more people

    Moderate this comment

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:47AM (#10987522)
    EA renames Saturday to Monday Reloaded and Sunday to Monday Extended Edition Director's Cut..
  • by nemaispuke ( 624303 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:47AM (#10987523)
    It wouldn't take a Class Action lawsuit to get management to recognize that their actions is causing their product to suffer through abusing their staff. So much managerial bullshit, all about profit. If they actually have to pay their employees overtime, that would cut into profits. We can't have that!!!
    • The sad thing is that paying overtime won't cut into EA's profits, it will cut into customers' wallets. The next game will be $59.99 new instead of $49.99, and this trend might push across the board. I hope and pray that you are right, that EA will take the hit internally, but I think they will try to push the extra cost onto consumers instead. At that point it is up to us to tell EA, via our purchasing power, that we won't shell out that much for every game they create.
  • Update (Score:5, Funny)

    by Jumbo Jimbo ( 828571 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:48AM (#10987527)
    (Fake) Update: 12/03 15:51 GMT by Jumbo Jimbo:

    Whoops, just kidding, the memo linked there is wrong; GamesIndustry.biz was apparently hoaxed into putting an EA memo on its site that wasn't actually written by EA. EA has no plans to clean up its act and no plans to compensate its workers. Hope this clears things up.

    Apologies to M

  • Suprised... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MysticalMatt517 ( 772389 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:48AM (#10987538) Homepage
    I'm actually surprised that EA was concerned enough to even go as far as sending out a memo. Most companies that demand the hours like what's been said about EA wouldn't even go that far...

    I'm almost wondering if that memo wasn't purposefully released as a PR move...
    • Are you kidding? Take a beating on slashdot, which every programmer in the world reads, and you damn well better do damage control. Life would be awfully hard if even people in India have heard you suck and don't want to work for you because of your sweatshop-like working conditions.
  • If only Wal-mart would be so responsible as to admit their mistakes.

    Like EA, Wal-mart took great pains to deny its workers overtime (or promotion, if you happen to be female), and like EA they were eventually called out on it. Unlike EA, they are maintaining that it is necessary to their business model of offering a gallon jar of pickles for $3 that they not deviate from paying minimum wage. And if the employees don't get the store cleaned up in their allotted time slot, well then they better not object to

  • by Srass ( 42349 ) * on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:50AM (#10987562)
    Quoth the memo:

    We have resisted this in the past, not because we don't want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies, the kind of employees those companies attract and the kind of compensation packages their employees prefer. We consider our artists to be "creative" people and our engineers to be "skilled" professionals who relish flexibility but others use the outdated wage and hour laws to argue in favor of a workforce that is paid hourly like more traditional industries and conforming to set schedules.


    Balderdash. What's wrong with paying someone more for more work? There's nothing in the hourly wage model that requires set schedules. The only argument I can read into this is, "well, it's just not done," or "hourly pay is just old-fashioned."

    It sounds to me like not wanting to pay overtime is exactly why they've resisted classifying people as "eligible" for overtime.

    Well, I think work is work, whether it's on an assembly line or writing software, and it takes time that a lot of people would use for something else, if they didn't need to earn a living. That's why they call it work, and not fun.

    Time's the most valuable commodity we can give somebody else, because once it's given, it's gone for good. I don't think it's asking too much to be compensated proportionately for it.

    Surely I'm missing something here. What is it?
    • by Zhe Mappel ( 607548 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:11PM (#10987830)
      You're missing nothing. The memo is a masterpiece of doublespeak.

      EA is suggesting that because creative people traditionally work "flexible" (i.e., long/obsessive) schedules, EA doesn't need to pay them more for their time. That's crap, of course. Anyone who is self-employed has experienced long hours; but the rewards of self-employment aren't present when you sign your soul away to make NHL 2006 in an EA sweatshop.

      There's a second audience for this memo, too: lawmakers. EA is begging the GOP to give it legislation that will protect its massive profits from the fair and just demands of its workforce. I bet they get it. This will be a useful lesson for the right wing kids--and for right wing adults--who are going to discover first-hand what they've voted for: their own economic exploitation.

    • by ctr2sprt ( 574731 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:23PM (#10988033)
      The best lies are the ones with a kernel of truth. Wage laws are outdated: they were designed mainly to combat early industrial problems where there was actual physical work involved.

      The issue here - and I want to emphasize again that I am not endorsing EA's position, just trying to explain the aforementioned kernel of truth - is that overtime rules don't really apply well to our current economy. They are built with very fixed limits: for example, 80 or 90 hours in a two-week period. If an employee goes past that limit, his employer has to pay him OT... even if both parties are happy with alternate forms of compensation. This may seem odd, but the goal, back when the rules were made, was to discourage OT entirely.

      But nowadays more and more employers are realizing the value of flex time. Not just daily flex time ("Come in whenever you want, as long as you work 8 hours") but weekly and even monthly flex time. Don't like working Fridays? Work 10-hour days instead. Like 4-day weekends? Put in 60 hours a week and you'll get two of 'em a month. That's a sort of flexibility which most labor laws don't allow. (Well, they clearly do allow it if you're tricky, but they aren't supposed to. So the fear is that legislatures will enforce the letter of the law and close up loopholes rather than reforming the law, which is what they should do.)

      EA mentioned artists for a reason. Artists are notoriously, or perhaps stereotypically, unstructured. They are the poster children for flex time. If a fit of inspiration hits you and you work 120 hours in two weeks, well, you should be able to do that - and then your employer can give you two weeks off to get over the inevitable burnout.

      I want to say it a third time because this sounds like I'm supporting what EA does: I am not. An important component of long-term flex time like I've been describing is compensation for the periods where you work unusually long hours. EA does not appear to be offering that compensation. That's a big problem. But, well... Just because EA is saying "Labor laws are broken" doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong. It just means they're poor advocates.

  • It's about time these slave drivers started paying for the long hours that they require. We have a branch office of EA here in Orlando and they are notorious for hiring young and cheap talent that are foaming at the mouth to work on games. They then turn around and take advantage of them, by working them long hours, for low pay, no overtime etc. All because these kids are too excited to see that they are getting screwed. I talked to the local shop here once, as I used to design simulator software for the na
  • by trigeek ( 662294 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:51AM (#10987582)
    I see this as a common problem throughout the tech industry, it just seems to be more pronounced than most at EA. The upper management creates a flawed schedule, without enough time or resources to do all of the required tasks. When it becomes apparent that the schedule will be missed, everyone goes into crunch mode, working ungodly hours to get the product out the door. The project is saved, but all of the developers have ulcers. Since the management didn't have to pay the developers for the extra hours they worked, there is not cost to the scheduling mistake, and make the same mistakes on the next project (unless they intentionally lowball the schedule, because they know they won't be the one's paying for it). If the developers received overtime, there would be a cost to the error, and it would be less likely to happen the next time.
    • Agreed! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by EXTomar ( 78739 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:54PM (#10988557)
      The problem isn't overtime. The problem is not getting paid for it. If workers were constantly getting paid 1.5x for each hour over 40 a week the higher ups in EA would be fixing their scheduling and manpower shortages in a hurry. As it stands they are under no obligation to pay any more for 35 hours a week than 95 hours a week so why not squeeze as many hours as they can?

      The reward for working hard should be compsensation not more work. If the higher ups aren't willing to be liberial with "comp time" or project bonuses then expect some unhappy workers. Killing morale does not help the company at all.
  • Volunteer labour (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Firiel ( 410060 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:53AM (#10987609)
    It might be that programmers who work their trade out of love of problem solving are to blame for this. I know many people, myself included, have put in voluntary overtime just for the joy of completing a project, or just being naturally engaged in your work. They say if you love your job, you'll never work a day in your life. You don't even ask to be compensated in times like this. You just love what you are doing. At various times in the games industry, very creative work was being done, and it just may be that these carefree problem-solvers created an unrealistic expectation for all the others around them.

    It's like the woman at the office who's husband sends flowers to every day. All the other women in the office adore this unseen male, but be sure that all the men in the office hate this guy for making them look bad.

    Seems that everyone goes about their job (and love, for that matter) in different ways. Over-management and over-regulation do strange things to the human spirit.
  • smoke screen (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anubis333 ( 103791 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @11:55AM (#10987633) Homepage
    This doesn't take responsibility for anything really, and it doesn't solve the problem. Sure, they can classify a 'few' positions for overtime between now and when they owe all their employees that and back OT thanks to the class action.

    Whatever it takes to help them churn out the next ShaqFu.
  • We will be all whining when they move their development to India. I hope you enjoy Madden Cricket 2007 [wikipedia.org]. That said, I would gladly work 70 hours a week to be in the credits of a video game.


    • That said, I would gladly work 70 hours a week to be in the credits of a video game.


      Get in touch with EA's HR department. You're just the kind of suck... err... motivated artist they like to exploi... umm, that is... add to their highly valued team. But before you get any funny ideas, remember that "value" in this case doesn't imply "worth paying."
    • Re:Yeah and.. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Politburo ( 640618 )
      That said, I would gladly work 70 hours a week to be in the credits of a video game.

      It's people like you who are causing these problems. So many people fought extremely hard for 35-40 hour work weeks, and you're ready to throw it all away so your name is in a list of credits that 3 people will ever read.
    • Fuck it, let 'em. Remember, the management and execs are the problems in this equation, not the workers. They (mgmt) will still keep their high salaries, regardless, so it's not even a issue about moving work overseas. It's an issue about how greedy American comapnies have become and how the society just accepts it.

      We don't have to accept this shit and something can and should be done about it.
  • First of all, an absolute cap at 80 hours a week under any conditions would make sense, since you are only fooling yourself if you think you are productive working even longer hours, and allow an 80 hour work week for 1 week maximum, cap it at 60 the rest of the time. If they can't meet their deliverables under these conditions, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they need more staff, or have an unreasonable delivery schedule.
    • for 1 week maximum
      for 1 week in a month, year, 2 years?

      I agree with this though. I think it's dangerouus to the compnay to have workers toiling more than 60 hours/week.

  • So tempting... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by petrus4 ( 213815 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:00PM (#10987706) Homepage Journal
    On reading this I'm sorely tempted to write to Rusty and outline to him in very precise and specific terms exactly why I think the company he works for gives capitalism a bad name. I wouldn't actually do it for the purposes of being purely vindictive, either. I don't necessarily want EA destroyed, because I really value the work of some of the assimilated companies. (Maxis, Origin)

    What I *do* want however is for them to get a clue in a very big way, particularly as far as MMORPGs are concerned. UO is still headed for the gurgler and gaining speed, and The Sims Online has become an online sex pests' paradise, when the game was not originally intended for anything even remotely like that.

    Electronic Arts needs radical reform...at the core ideological level. That article on here a few weeks back by the college professor showed me that...when he talked about EA's execs thinking of the company as being simply a vendor of boxes. If they don't get that reform, then they *will* sink. It won't happen overnight perhaps, but it will gradually happen. They need to start innovating again, and they need to prevent the soulless bean-counters from being in charge. There is more to games...and life itself...than *just* money...and if you don't realise that, eventually you'll get to a point where you're not making money either.

    • I don't necessarily want EA destroyed, because I really value the work of some of the assimilated companies. (Maxis, Origin)

      What I *do* want however is for them to get a clue in a very big way, particularly as far as MMORPGs are concerned. UO is still headed for the gurgler and gaining speed, and The Sims Online has become an online sex pests' paradise, when the game was not originally intended for anything even remotely like that.

      What makes you thing that anything of these aquired companies conti

  • I thought no-overtime non-comp work was illegal for entertainment companies.

    If they're working over their salaried time then they are required by law to recieve overtime or comp.
    • Re:Some? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by badasscat ( 563442 )
      I thought no-overtime non-comp work was illegal for entertainment companies.

      If they're working over their salaried time then they are required by law to recieve overtime or comp.


      That's what the employees believe, but labor laws are not so simple. EA has classified these employees as exempt from overtime status, which they're legally allowed to do under certain circumstances (for example, if an employee works on a contract or salary basis in a computer-related field, and is often asked to "use his or he
  • This is just a side effect. If ALL software companies would put more emphasis on quality (including secure) code from the beginning, the costs of supporting this stuff would go down. When I say quality, I am referring to something you might get from a CS degree, not what DeVRY is hoanding out. Hence, the company perhaps wouldn't have swollen to its current size perhaps... or if they _HAD_ spent more time (and salary) on their staff, the public would likely have paid more for the "better" software. Assum
  • Since these EA stories started to break I just can't shake the image in my head of John Madden chained to a recording studio being made to work long hours into the night recording "Boom!" over and over again to get it just right.
  • I work for a fairly large organization of 10,000+ people. I think the assumption at this point is that any internal e-mail by upper management will make its way to the local paper if the topic is interesting enough. So I wouldn't consider it a leak.

    Also keep in mind that the goals of the HR department and other management may be different. Often HR is looking out for employes, while other management may have other goals.
  • The republican government wants to set the clock back to the 1920's. H1B's, overtime exemptions, offshoring, etc. is eating into white collar careers and nobody on slashdot seems to give a flying fuck. If we don't organize politically, big companies and their deep-pocket lobbyists will sell our souls to the lowest bidder.

    And don't give me that crap about working harder and getting 200 certificates instead of just 100. We are in the cross-hairs of corporation desire for cheaper, more docile labor. Globalism
  • by PoderOmega ( 677170 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:07PM (#10987777)
    I think we really need a business speak translator. He's my stab at it:
    Most important: we recognize that this doesn't get fixed with one email or in one month. It's an on-going process of communication and change. And while I realize that the issue today is how we work - I think we should all remember that there are also a lot of great benefits to working at EA that are not offered at other companies. With some smart thinking and specific actions we will fix these issues and become stronger as a company.
    Translation: Hopefully this memo has given you enough false hope we can string you along for the next year in the same conditions before I have to write another memo promising changes. EA does have the same benefits of other companies out there but since you don't have time to look (because you are working 80 hours a week for us) you will never know, so just assume you are lucky. We aren't fixing anything, if you want to work for a stronger company, stop complaining.
  • I used to work for Newport News Shipbuilding a few years ago and they had a problem where some people working in an Engineering division were being paid salary and were overtime exempt and others were hourly workers. The salaried workers complained to management about the inequality so the CEO came up with a solution. He fired all the salaried workers and hired them back at a much lower hourly rate when they begged. Ain't corporate America great?
  • More of the same (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Lysol ( 11150 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:09PM (#10987805)
    Gee, how many times have we (the trench workers) seen stuff like this before. After reading the memo and the ea_spouse posting, there was an all too fimilar 'ping' in my gut.

    The EA management team should be paraded around the town square a whipped with wet noodles (or harsher) , pelted with whatever gum can be pried off the sidewalk, and humiliated in what ever manner seen fit. It is completely true that the ones that make the big salaries don't give much of a care about those minions below pumped for the bulk of the grunt work.

    True, we (the worker geeks) used to be the cool ones a few years back. But that was then and now, it's back to the same 'ol same 'ol where the execs once again have the spotlight, the workers know their place, and the economy favors mostly those on top.

    Frankly, I'm not much of an game player and will make it a point to specifically not buy EA games anymore - for myself or anyone else.
    The leaked memo needs to go much further and pretty much include everyone in overtime rules. The fact that some will be looked at leads to a bunch of magic hand waving while the practices continue. EA's made a boat load of cash and should share the wealth with those who are probably most responsible for it.

    But alas, the top execs and management need to maintain their pecking order and paychecks so their lifestyles can continue. Such is the way of things.

    My advice to EA employees: stage a mass demonstration or walk out - organize! It's no fair that you get crap from all the hard work while others reap the real benefits.

    I really hope the class action yields some cash for those who deserve and more bad press for EA and in fact, the rest of the software industry where this happens more than not. This type of work is not sustainable and we Americans need to stand up for better jobs and better working conditions (gee, that sounds historically fimiliar). Otherwise, companies will take everything they can, including your life.
  • Does anyone else feel like this is still a cop-out? If I were in the position of these developers, I would be dissapointed. I'd much rather prefer working 40-60 hours a week rather than working 80 and receiving overtime. Even if they get paid overtime, their lives and families are still going to suffer because of the insane hours EA makes them work. Extra money really isn't much good if you don't have free time to enjoy it.
  • by monkeyfarm ( 197818 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:30PM (#10988160)
    This was intentionally leaked. No exec. writes an internal memo that long with that tone. This is an unofficial press release.
  • by gillbates ( 106458 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:31PM (#10988195) Homepage Journal

    at a former employer. Company policy required managers to be present any time their employees were working overtime. As you can guess, we had to get management permission to work overtime, which was granted only when it was really needed. An interesting side effect is that our managers became very good at estimating the time needed for a project, and we were almost never late - with or without overtime.

  • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:49PM (#10988489) Homepage Journal

    We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year. We have resisted this in the past, not because we don't want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies, the kind of employees those companies attract and the kind of compensation packages their employees prefer. We consider our artists to be "creative" people and our engineers to be "skilled" professionals who relish flexibility but others use the outdated wage and hour laws to argue in favor of a workforce that is paid hourly like more traditional industries and conforming to set schedules. But we can't wait for the legislative process to catch up so we're forced to look at making some changes to exempt and non-exempt classifications beginning in April.


    We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year.

    We have no concrete plans to do anything at this time, but we do plan to talk among ourselves about it, and we're making sure you know we're planning on talking about it so that your hopes are raised without any actual promises of anybody getting overtime pay.

    We have resisted this in the past, not because we don't want to pay overtime,

    Government regulators held a gun to our head and told us we couldn't even though we really, really wanted to.

    but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies

    OK, even you won't buy something that stupid. The truth is we knowingly broke the law because we thought it should not apply to us.

    the kind of employees those companies attract and the kind of compensation packages their employees prefer

    We hire young naive idealists and milk them for all they are worth. When they wise up, well, there's a sucker born every minute.

    We consider our artists to be "creative" people and our engineers to be "skilled" professionals who relish flexibility

    Clarification: by "flexibility" we don't mean that you will get to choose when to work -- it means that we know you value management's flexibility to choose for you.

    but others use the outdated wage and hour laws to argue in favor of a workforce that is paid hourly like more traditional industries and conforming to set schedules.

    We haven't figured out how to control project schedules. Learning how to do this is harder than getting the laws changed so we can put the onus for delivering poorly planned projects on you

    ...

    OK, I'm not a huge fan of unions, but they're looking better every minute.
  • by adjwilli ( 530933 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:49PM (#10988496) Homepage
    For those who don't know - and for those that do, here's a refresher: Marx's Labor Theory of Value, though much critiqued in recent times, purports the value of product is a product of the various types of labor and resources that go into producing it. Typically, if one wants to lower the value of that product to make it more competitive, labor must be "squeezed". For more information, and a bit more lengthy description, click here [marxists.org]. In relation to the issues of EA, as if EA were the only tech company with practices like these, it is obvious that programmers are the labor being squeezed. What makes the case interesting however is that as the economy becomes more competitive sections of labor that formerly considered themselves insulated from the squeeze are now feeling it. In many industries, the value of products reflects more the marketing costs than the actual production costs. I'm not sure about the specifics of EA games, but I'm willing to wager that they spend more money on marketing (NFL endorsements, advertising, packaging, etc.) than paying their developers and production staff. In the 1990's, we were warned about this happening. As more kids were guided into technology jobs - being told it's the way of the future - some bright individuals saw that eventually the high demand would bottom out. We still need programmers today, that's for sure, but just not at the incredible rate we did in say 1995. We have too many programmers for them to be a valuable labor commodity any more. Sorry, that's the truth. Next in line though to lose the value of their labor is likely to be the marketing guys. Not the football players or NFL execs, but the guys who decide which football players and what color to use on the damn box. Business schools are booming with students looking to fill these positions. Students enrolling in CS classes fortunately has leveled off, but students enrolling in business classes continues to climb. After all, you can't make much money doing CS, philosophy, psychology, or very many other disciplines. With marketing guys and business guys starting to be squeezed as well, unless something can be done to unite all labor, we will continue to see wealth concentrated in fewer and fewer individuals. In the US, the middle class is shrinking. Not because they are being paid less outright, but because there are fewer positions that pay what they should and the pay rates do not always reflect inflation and the pressing tax burden. Whether we like it or not, unless the labor movement can be revived, the average man will continue to see less value for his toil. EA is just one small example. In the immortal words of Malcolm X and many before him: "It's the chicken coming home to roost." Perhaps if the fortunate and privileged helped labor back in the past, their could it could have been a chickening coming home to roast instead.
    • by hey! ( 33014 )
      I'm not too sure about your analysis. You may be right in that we have too many programmers now, although by the labor theory of value that means that the EA products aren't worth as much as they were. The labor theory of values is more prescriptive than descriptive in any case. A different perspective is needed to look at these situations.

      I'd say this: the reason that unfair labor practices are possible is that capital is inherently more mobile than labor. It's the disparity in mobility that creates i
  • by battlemarch ( 570731 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:52PM (#10988541) Journal
    *cough* bullshit *cough*
    We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year. We have resisted this in the past, not because we don't want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies, the kind of employees those companies attract and the kind of compensation packages their employees prefer. We consider our artists to be "creative" people and our engineers to be "skilled" professionals who relish flexibility but others use the outdated wage and hour laws to argue in favor of a workforce that is paid hourly like more traditional industries and conforming to set schedules. But we can't wait for the legislative process to catch up so we're forced to look at making some changes to exempt and non-exempt classifications beginning in April.
    I strongly suggest that they pick up a copy of The Employer's Legal Handbook, Fifth Edition [amazon.com]. Actually, I suggest that some of the employees do that also.

    The problem isn't if employees are exempt or not but about EA abusing them; it appears to be about EA not compensating their employees fairly and demanding insane work weeks.

    Bill
  • Cynical hat on (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TiggertheMad ( 556308 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @12:55PM (#10988586) Journal
    EA Games is sure a bunch of nice, and mis-understood people. The president is a great guy, and it has only now come to his attention that there are massive and (possible illegal?) employee exploitation practices going on at his company. But since he is such a great person and he knows about the problem now, he will get to the bottom of things, and remove the evil middle managers that implimented such policies.

    While his statements aren't this silly, I really doubt that he was unaware of the problem. This seems like a spin move to disrupt employee solidarity and the possible class action lawsuit that is being organized. It's exactly what I would do to try to drive a pre-emptive wedge in their ranks and avoid a costly lawsuit.
  • by THCLothar ( 804633 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @01:20PM (#10988979) Homepage
    Maybe it might be beneficial for some of us and/or all of us to give investor relations at EA a call. Maybe ask them how this negative press is going to effect their sales and the current stock prices. and wouldn't you know they have a website. http://investor.ea.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=88189&p=iro l-contact enjoy, Lothar
  • This will not pass (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Overzeetop ( 214511 ) on Friday December 03, 2004 @02:07PM (#10989711) Journal
    Geez, I' ve got to get some work done, but this caught my eye and I just can't let this PR piece go uncommented:

    The last few weeks of reading blogs and the media about EA culture and work practices have not been easy. I know personally how hard it is when so much of the news seems negative.

    Yeah, cause it means that HR has to put in our full 40 hours just to answer all the emails from you and the boss about how we're not keeping a better lid on this stuff.

    We have purposefully not responded to web logs and the media because the best way to communicate is directly with you, our team members. ...through carefully crafted PR "leaks"

    As much as I dont like whats been said about our company and our industry, I recognize that at the heart of the matter is a core truth: the work is getting harder, the tasks are more complex and the hours needed to accomplish them have become a burden. We havent yet cracked the code on how to fully minimize the crunches in the development and production process.

    Okay, lets stop right here. This is a company with vast resources and development history. They can't get one guy to go back and look at the last few years and tell them how many man-hours it's going to take to develop the next game? I'm not talking down to the minute - they're clearly under-staffed by about 40-70% if the reports are true. You can't get me a WAG within 10% and hire-up? I call bullshit in the biggest way. Only the most incompetent manager would underestimate time this badly when they have a known track record. ...there are things we just need to fix. And the solutions dont apply to just our studios the people who market, sell, distribute and support the great games that our Studios create, all share a demanding workload.

    Classic avoidance of the issue by peer pressure. "Everybody else is working overtime, it's the industry standard...get used to it." It's the standard because nobody is willing stand up and put a stop to the pre-industrial-revolution working conditions.

    Three weeks ago we issued our bi-annual Talk Back Survey and more than 80 percent of you participated much higher than the norm for a company our size. That tells me you care and are committed to making EA better.

    Human nature predicts that the majority of people will only speak up when they are dissatified, and want change. If things are going well, there's no need to cause a commotion. Looking at the turn out in elections is a prime example of this phenominon.

    In the next 30 days well have the survey results and we will share them openly with you by the middle of January.

    What, no raw data? Thirty days is a long time to tally the multiple choice - how bout a sneak preview?

    Your feedback in the Talk Back Survey will help us make changes in the coming year, but were not waiting some changes are already in the works in the Studios. Here are just a few: ...blah blah blah...

    Nothing but some techincal changes here. Good, but unless you're going to admit that such a large company is randomly re-developing things so badly as to waste hoards of man-hours, I'm going to say that this is band-aid stuff that'll (maybe) take an hour off the typical workweek if you keep the product the same. In reality, it will just allow more work to be done in the existing time, and expectations of output to rise. With all the productivity software out there, we should be working 12 hour weeks, based on what was done thirty years ago.

    We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year.

    Sounds good, but this is just consideration...not the actual reclassification. They'll probably decide what they have is good.

    We have resisted this in the past, not because we dont want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology

"Look! There! Evil!.. pure and simple, total evil from the Eighth Dimension!" -- Buckaroo Banzai

Working...