Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
E3 XBox (Games)

360's Backwards Compatibility Weak? 174

Posted by Zonk from the not-backwards-compatibility dept.
GamesIndustry.biz is reporting that the backwards compatibility that Microsoft offered up at the Monday press conference may not be anything approaching what we're used to. Due to the massive design changes in the shift from the Xbox to the 360, Xbox titles may have to be recompiled in order to work on the next-gen console. From the article: "The news has raised more questions than it answers, however, as it suggests that gamers may need to purchase titles they already own in order to play them on an Xbox 360 - and almost certainly means that only a sub-set of Xbox games will ever be playable on the new console." Update: 05/20 15:08 GMT by Z : The article has been updated with a quote from MS specifically saying that gamers will *not* need to repurchase Xbox titles to play them on the 360.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

360's Backwards Compatibility Weak? More

360's Backwards Compatibility Weak?

Comments Filter:

  • Well Linux users who... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 19, 2005 @05:28AM (#12575573)
    ...recompile their kernels every 3 days would be used to this idea, no?

  • Backwards compatible? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by NickHydroxide ( 870424 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @05:35AM (#12575599) Homepage
    How can this be called backwards compatibility? If this is true, then this really is a poor showing from MS.

    The only way they may avoid pissing too many people off, and making such a system viable is to offer the recompiled versions available for free download for people who have already purchased that particular game.

    As TFA states, though, backwards compatibility for a small class of games is idiotic.

    • Re:Backwards compatible? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by damsa ( 840364 )
      Yeah if this backwards compatible, then wouldn't the Game Cube be backwards compatible.

  • If this is accurate (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Xxanmorph ( 654953 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @05:41AM (#12575623)
    I wouldn't really call that "backwards compatible", more like "not backwards compatible".
    • I can see this being used in marketing by other industries. New electric car backwards compatible with gasoline cars. Use your old gas on your brand new electric car today.

      Disclaimer, use of gas may require buying of new engine, drive train, transmission.

    • Except that right in TFA, it says this:

      "At launch, Xbox 360 will be backward compatible with the top Xbox games," Xbox PR manager Michael Wolf told GamesIndustry.biz today. "Our goal is to have every Xbox game work on Xbox 360. You will NOT need to purchase a new 'version' - your original games will work on Xbox 360."

      What I read from that is that a) they're working on emulation and b) the top priority is to get the top-selling games working. This is very similar to MAME people getting something like "

  • Not so much precompiles as it's mostly going to be emulated (VirtualPC!), but of course some re-releases are inevitable.

  • Backwards compatibility is hard (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AndrewStephens ( 815287 ) * on Thursday May 19, 2005 @05:53AM (#12575685) Homepage
    I am sure that a lot of comments are going to say the 360 is powerful enough to emulate the slowish x86 in the current xbox, which is true. Unfortunately, it isn't that simple - the rest of the hardware (graphics/sound/controller, etc) is different as well. It may be that Microsoft decided that it was more trouble than it was worth.

    Personally, I think it is a mistake, but obviously Microsoft couldn't afford to pull a playstation2 and put an entire PS1 on the die. This is the downside of going with off-the-shelf parts and not designing your own chips. No way were they ever going to convince Intel and whoever did their video hardware on the xbox to provide a mega-cheap shrunken version that they could cram onto the 360 motherboard.

    • Re:Backwards compatibility is hard (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sehryan ( 412731 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @08:11AM (#12576593)
      It can't be that hard. Nintendo is making the Revolution compatible with their entire catalog of games going back to the NES days.

      I'll say it again: THEIR ENTIRE CATALOG OF GAMES

      And yet, the Revolution is the smallest console shown at E3, and Nintendo is hoping to make it even smaller before launch.

      Microsoft cares not for the gaming community, only how to make money off of them. Why let you play Halo and Halo 2 on the 360 for free, when you can pay to buy those games again?
      • And like the OP said, Nintendo has always had custom hardware made. I'm sure by now it's not very hard to fit an NES or SNES on a single die, and possibly even an N64. I assume it will be able to play GCN games because the hardware will be similar enough (PPC CPU & ATI GPU).

        On another thought, is anybody actually sure what Nintendo's process of publishing a game entails? For all we know, they own source code to the entire back catalog of games that they can recompile and allow us to download.
        • I assume it will be able to play GCN games because the hardware will be similar enough

          Yes, it will. This was one of the first things that was confirmed.
        • GCN games can be played directly, all other games will be downloadable. Of course they might not offer unpopular games. Personally I have some unpopular favorites... Either way you are right, they may recompile these games especially the N64 games. The SNES and NES games would be a waste of nintendos time to recompile as emulators are able to do these flawlessly.
      • Although I'm a Nintendo fan, I have to point out that as far as the Revolution's backward compatibility with retro Nintendo consoles, it's not like you're going to be able to just take a NES cart and plug it into the Revolution, so it's not truly backwards compatible either. And you may have to re-buy those old games off a Nintendo website (I doubt it's going to just work with standard ROMs and they're going to give them away for free).

        Also, Microsoft never actually said you'd have to re-buy the games. T
        • I think the more likely scenario is that you download "compatibility enhancements" off of Xbox Live. It is far easier to download and probably a lot cheaper than it is to do any physical exchanges. You also have to think that this Christmas the number of original Xbox games sold would plunge if you hear that you must exchange your game to make it play on Xbox 360.

          I certainly wouldn't buy any game that I knew I was going to have to exchange. I would buy it if all it required was a download upgrade.

          This
      • Nintendo has the advantage that the Game Cube uses a Power PC CPU and an ATI graphics chip, just like the Revolution. So they have a much easier task of making the Revolution compatible with the Game Cube. They didn't switch to a completely incompatible CPU and graphics chip like Microsoft did with the Xbox 360.
      • It is backward compaatible with the game cube. I would love to see you try to cram a NES cart in your Revolution. They will have emulators for their very old system. It's not as simple to emulate the previous gen, particularly the way MS makes their system.

        Nintendo cares for the gaming community as much as MS does. They all just want to make money. They might "get" gamers a little better (at least on this point, not so much on others), but they are still out for a profit. How your biased, factually i
    • Wouldn't it have been a lot easier if they had just used a faster x86, faster nvidia, etc?

  • Whooptie doo, one possibility (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Filiks ( 578065 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @05:58AM (#12575719)
    If the average game executable and some key files that need recompiling are 100MB, and I bet most are more like 20MB, MS could release a DVD with 100 recompiled games on it. Just put in the disc, select all the games you and your friends play, wait a minute for the files to copy to the HD, then put in the games actual DVD and play. Since the files are copied to the HD, you only have to do this once.

    Better yet, make the files downloadable for those with broadband. Problem solved, and only about 2GB of hard drive space used for twenty games.

  • Backwards compat. for those on Live. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Scott Robinson ( 108176 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @06:04AM (#12575751) Homepage
    This is just a theory, but it seems reasonable that they could simply recompile and tune the binaries, and then place them on X-Box Live.

    Any X-Box 360 hooked up to the network could download the new binaries (not too large) and then run them.

    Wa-la, backwards compatibility and a pushing factor for online access.

  • This is cynical. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cluke ( 30394 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @07:04AM (#12576067)
    Basically, they do not have backwards compatibility in the proper sense of the term, but as it is perceived to be such a make or break feature, they are just going to LIE about it??

  • Free, but for a price? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sloose ( 864787 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @07:11AM (#12576129)
    A bit of speculation here, but I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft gave the recompiled versions out for free over Xbox Live, but only to people who are gold subscribers. Could be a good ploy to get people who aren't interested in Xbox Live to join up.
    • Large outcry from that, which wouldn't be past Microsoft. But I'd still say it'd be more likely that they would put these games on the silver network which is officially for game content downloads, extra game content purchases, and little stuff like scoreboards.

      XBox Live! Gold is officially for game playing ability.

      Of course who knows what these tiers will actually mean come release time.
      • Large outcry from that, which wouldn't be past Microsoft. But I'd still say it'd be more likely that they would put these games on the silver network which is officially for game content downloads, extra game content purchases, and little stuff like scoreboards.

        This seems reasonable enough, it doesn't quite make sense to me (see below). More interestingly, what do they intend to do about third-party games where Microsoft doesn't have the right to recompile/redistribute the executable?

        Especially for s

        • Well, it turns out that I was wrong. The original article was updated to include comments from Microsoft, which say that they will not charge for new versions of games. Given that, the difference between emulating the original and distributing recompiled executables is academic for anyone with an internet connection.

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @08:33AM (#12576689)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Have fun playing games on Live with a mod chip installed. If I had the cash for a 2nd Xbox, I'd totally mod the 2nd one, but I fail to see the point in modding if I take away my functionality.
    • HEY!!!, I paid for 2 of those games. Of course one of those was Mechwarrior for the express purpose of installing linux and then later installing EvolutionX [etsu.edu].

      I'm guessing I'll pick up a Revolution in about a year. I'm REALLY hoping this NES/SNES emulation stuff carries over to the DS.

  • If the thing has enough storage (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dtfinch ( 661405 ) * on Thursday May 19, 2005 @09:11AM (#12576943) Journal
    They could just ship the xbox 360 with the recompiled binaries for the top x games, and just detect when one of those CD's is inserted and run the embedded version instead. There's no added piracy risk, because they're useless without the data from the CD anyway, so it's just a matter of them asking the game publisher "hey, do you want it to work or not?" and then getting it to work.
    • I totally agree. I bet this is what they will do. What's more, since they now have the luxury of shipping new game "guts" they can tweak them for 720p and allow the new GPU to process the hell out of the graphics, so that the same game will look substantially better on the 360 (since it doesn't have to be exactly the same game).

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @09:16AM (#12577011)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:What a load of trolls (Score:5, Insightful)

      by cluke ( 30394 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @09:25AM (#12577110)
      You don't emulate games, man, you emulate hard-ware. So, if what you're saying is they are going to do a half-assed emulator 'just good enough' to run a selected sub-set of games, then fair enough but that isn't backwards compatibility.
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Jimmy's Mom doesn't care about backwards compatible chipsets, or an xbox VM, or just-in-time native code swapping, or any of that.

        As a previous post [slashdot.org] said, Jimmy's Mom is going to ask "Will it be able to play his XBox games?". "Yes" or "No" are really about as technical as you need to get (though it is important if "Yes" is contingent upon an XBox live subscription).

        My guess is that "Compatibility" could be implemented in a couple ofways:
        • Kludges in firmware and/or harddrive. 360 detects legacy game, lo

        • Few people remember that PS2 compatibility was also limited (though probably not to the degree that XBox will be). If developers stuck to the API you were okay, but if your PS1 games tried to go against the metal or leveraged undocumented features that presumed a particular chipset... you were toast. My guess is that the same will hold true for PS3.

          The PS2 has enhancements such as faster disk loading and texturing smoothing to make some games better. These features didn't work in some games but you coul

    • Sorry, but I'm surprised none of the people here who got 3+ for their comments have read this article [engadget.com].

      They clearly say they are going to EMULATE the top titles.

      That article says no such thing!

      Emulation isn't even mentioned in the article. The interview is vague as Hell on how they are going to get bakcwards compatiblity and ends with "the execution [of XBox compatibility] will speak for itself".

      So, have you read this article [engadget.com]?
  • If this logic holds (ie, enough people buy it), Nintendo can stretch it a bit further by advertising their GBA/Nintendo DS system as backwards compatible with the SNES and NES.

  • Not Backwards Compatibility (Score:3, Insightful)

    by calibanDNS ( 32250 ) <brad_staton@hotm ... com minus author> on Thursday May 19, 2005 @10:31AM (#12577899)
    Nintendo does this with the GBA and old NES and SNES games, but at least they have the balls to admit that they're just using it to try to make more money with a new system and old properties instead of claiming it is 'backwards compatibility' between the GBA and SNES.

    As long as MS and XBox developers allow owners of the original XBox games to download these updates to the old games for free, it should be acceptable. But otherwise, this is a scam. And in no way can this be called 'backwards compatibility'.
  • If the games will run through recompilation, here is what I think they could do.

    They will probably have it limited to those who buy the more expensive version of the 360 with the hard drive and combined with XBox Live, download the recompiled executable to run off the hard drive while reading the data from the CD/DVD.
  • I wonder if the cost of emulating the old Xbox on new hardware would be significantly reduced if MS pursued a hardware solution. That is, if they followed Sony's PS compatiblity method in the PS2 through inclusion of miniturized integrated PS circuitry.

    By including certain hardware elements from the old Xbox, such as the Nvidia graphics chip, they could avoid legal entanglements and guarantee compatibility. On the other hand, I don't think MS considers backwards compatiblity to be high on their priority li
    • That's not an option, as nVidia is quite pissed at Microsoft now so there's no way in hell they're going to cooperate.

      Besides from what we can tell right now Microsoft seems more to be going the "recompilation" route, not emulation.

  • The Bleem Strategy (Score:4, Insightful)

    by blueZhift ( 652272 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @10:45AM (#12578109) Homepage Journal
    Back in the day, there was a copy called Bleem [emulator-zone.com] that essentially sold emulators for the Sega Dreamcast that allowed it to play selected Playstation games, such as Gran Turismo 2, etc.. You would have to buy the appropriate "Bleem Pack" to play a given set of games. Perhaps Xbox 360 backwards compatibility will take this approach. The Xbox would download the appropriate patches and settings to play a given previous generation game. If they can support say the 50 most popular Xbox games, then they may be able to get away with it. Heck, the PS2 does not play 100 percent of the first generation Playstation games either.

    In any case, if the end user has to go out and buy a title again, then backwards compatibility is a lie and I sincerely hope that Sony and Nintendo pummels them mercilessly! Seriously though, I think Microsoft will pull it off somehow. They have more than enough resources and talent to do the job. Yeah, I know, this is /., MS is evil! But they _do_ have a lot of talented and passionate people working on this. So I think they'll pull it off.
  • Little did Microsoft know that they should've included source, and a copy of GCC*, with every game they sold.

    *With a custom --xbox flag, of course, to prevent piracy.

  • Nice Try (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rAiNsT0rm ( 877553 ) on Thursday May 19, 2005 @11:42AM (#12578992) Homepage
    As I've been modded a troll for saying exactly this, maybe now people will realize that there is no way to make the Xbox backwards compatible. The Xbox was a cobbled together console based on PC hardware with no way to provide backwards compatibility on a PPC CPU... this is Slashdot you'd think more people could have figured this out from the initial announcement, but alas the hype has gotten the better of a lot of fanboys.

    I hate to tell you too that the shared memory of the Xbox 360 is going to be a downfall, as bandwidth is going to be a big issue. Developers are already grumbling about this. That 22Gb/s bandwith is going to be eaten up pretty quickly with all of the bandwidth hungry components fighting for their share. Do some simple math on the numbers involved with HD resolutions, AA, system processing, memory, and other overhead and the XBOX 360's shiny hype-filled exterior begins to dull a bit... it is most definitely NOT 15 times more powerful than the Xbox. Sony is actually pretty on target with the Xbox 1.5 comments. (I'm no longer a Sony guy either, so this is not said with any bias or loyalty.)

    The Revolution has this game in the bag by playing the backfield right now. Let the two "Big Guns" slug it out and sling all the mud they want at each other while no one even targets them... then once the fervor is over release the full details and have no easy open media forum for rebuttal. They spring a few new titles, release the innovations of their controller, their low price-point, and the reality that their processing power is right in line with the competition, and bingo you've got a winner.
    • They spring a few new titles, release the innovations of their controller, their low price-point, and the reality that their processing power is right in line with the competition, and bingo you've got a winner.

      You could have copied and pasted this from 2001 and been talking about the GameCube.

      Didn't happen then - what makes you think it'll happen this time? There's a reason why Sony and MS are successful (and why even Nintendo was successful in the 80's and early 90's), and it wasn't because they hung
    • Please explain to me how the Revolution's processing power is "right in line with the competition."

      • Re:Nice Try (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Saige ( 53303 )
        Well, remember how overstated the Xbox and PS2 were in regards to processing power when compared to the GameCube? When it came to reality, the GC was right alongside the other two consoles, even though they weren't claiming the same numbers.

        Right now, the Xbox 360 and PS3 are being touted with these insane numbers that have no basis to actual GAMES - who cares how many FLOPS the PS3 can do, a very small part of the processing a game has to do is floating point.

        Let's wait and see - in regards to the reali
      • It is actually quite true, the Revolution wil be based on a 3 core custom CPU, and a custom GPU with most of the same features as the Xbox 360 and even a few additional ones such as the VGA output for monitors. The PS3 will have a slight edge on it power-wise (as it does on the Xbox 360 for the same reasons) but not by very much.

        Wipe away the marketing hype and look at the real numbers. The Xbox 360 has 512MB *shared* memory between CPU and GPU (if this was a pc with shared video ram people would be dissin
    • Nice try, whatever. Microsoft acquired Connectix, who made virtual PC for the Mac, which allows Macs to emulate an X86 environment. XNA / directX is already present on the damn machine. It's not that it's not possible. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's just that it's hard, and Microsoft doesn't want to expend the resources to do it 100%.

      BTW, you accuse a lot of people of being fanboys, and checking your post history, it sounds like you're already dead set on the revolution and nothing else
      • I'm quite aware of the Connectix purchase, and it has no bearing here. MS has already stated they are going to require recompiles for any sort of "backwards compatability," your argument is poor here: "MS could do it but its hard", so that's why they wouldn't expend the time or resources to true backwards compatability... which is a major factor, and its so much harder than designing an entire console and development software for it?!? They can't do it because it can't be done.

        I accuse people who blatantl
  • GamesIndustry.biz is full of speculation on this one, and I am perfectly capable of matching them on their bullshit blow-by-blow if this is what they call news.

    It is just as possible that Microsoft may include updates to 'classic' titles as part of their basic/free Live service.

    There are no links, references, sources or quotes in that article. Don't waste your time, people.
  • If it has to be recompiled, it will probably end up just being a download of a new .exe over Live. They would not need to download the graphics, because those could probably still be pulled from the disk.

    END COMMUNICATION
  • Why do I get the feeling that the person they were talking to was referring to how they plan on emulating the x86 processor by using JIT compilation to translate x86 instructions to PPC instructions?

Slashdot Top Deals

Don't panic.

Close