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First Person Shooters (Games) Entertainment Games

Doomed: How id Lost Its Crown 491

bonch writes "Steve Bowler, lead animator for Midway Games, has written an article for Next Generation called Doomed: How id Lost Its Crown. He talks about id no longer being the king of the hill in the FPS genre, losing the multiplayer gaming wars to Counter-strike and the engine licensing wars to competitors like Unreal 3.0, and focusing too much on rendering realistic environments at the expense of modern gameplay features. From the article: 'It's hard to stomach having to shoot a zombie in the head the same number of times as in the body (six rounds from a pistol, thanks for asking) to dispatch it, when you can shoot a light fixture and watch how realistically light dances around the room.'"
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Doomed: How id Lost Its Crown

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  • Re:DUPE (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rovingeyes ( 575063 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:14PM (#13036210)
    I don't get it if its a dupe why is the site still slashdotted? Don't people trust any one anymore?
  • Another whiny... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by c0l0 ( 826165 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:15PM (#13036219) Homepage
    ...and irrelevant rant about Doom 3. It's clearly not everyone's taste, but the hell, I really enjoyed playing id's final version of what the original Doom was meant to be, but could not become, due to technological drawbacks back in time. So this guy, while providing you mit wrong "facts" about "no headhsot in teh g4me 'n stuff dud3!12" (in fact, the Doom 3 engine FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER featured collision-detection based on the actualy polygonal structure of objects, NOT just el-cheapo-hitboxes, and definately recognizes different body-zones of its models!) basically just spills biased mud in the company's face that will get Enemy Territory: Quake Wars as well as the sequel to Quake 2 delivered soon, constantly innovates the industry in the field of real-time 3D-graphics, and sold its latest and greatest groundbreaking engine to be incorporated into some of the most eagerly awaited games in the genre.

    Yeah, I see clearly now, id is doomed.
  • You know.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by suparjerk ( 784861 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:15PM (#13036230)
    Even though the gameplay itself for D3 was far below what it should have been, I have to say I must give them credit for being able to create such a powerful and frightening environment as they did. D3 was the first game I've played since the Marine campaign of AvP that actually made me scream, jump out of my chair, and have to leave the room. (Yes, I'm a sissy.)

    Everyone craps on D3 so much, and it bugs me. Yes, gameplay is probably the most important quality in a video game, and I admit it was severely lacking in D3. But dammit, they really really excelled in other areas and did a few things other video games just don't do. They do deserve some credit.
  • Re:I don't recall... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 88NoSoup4U88 ( 721233 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:19PM (#13036274)
    I'm not sure if the Source engine takes anything from one of Id's engines.

    Interesting question imo, since Valve been spouting off how they've build the Source Engine themselves, yet, when the alpha-code-leak happened, various people found entries from the Quake-C code inside (either commented out, or still in use) :

    I wonder how much of that is still in there and, if it is, if id is getting something out of it.

  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:19PM (#13036280)
    I read the other Slashdot thread. But one thing I found missing there (and in the article itself was) - how did ID really loose the crown of engine linsencing? As the article noted the Unreal3 engine is all over the press, but you see no sign of other companies moving to use the Doom3 engine for other products.

    Is the Doom3 really not as capabile of expansive environments, really not as easy to program? How did ID let that slide by?
  • What did you expect? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Ya Bolshoi! ( 776966 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:22PM (#13036307)
    Why are we all of a sudden complaining about the gameplay in an id game? That's like saying that there's little characterization in George Romero film: no shit.

    Carmack et al are on record as saying that games don't need story. Romero (that other one) was booted out of id after he tried to get them to focus on gameplay and design, not just graphics. Admittedly he failed spectacularly, but from that point one id was a one trick pony. They make pretty looking games where you kill zombies/cyborgs and collect keycards.

    Is this behind the times in terms of gameplay? Sure. Imo, Deus Ex and System Shock 2 both beat the pants off DOOM3 (and Painkiller and Max Payne) in terms of gameplay and design. And they're more than five years old!

    Frankly, DOOM was only "revolutionary" because it was the first game that really nailed how to do graphics good enough to make an FPS game work. Expecting fabulous gameplay out of id is like expecting a Terminator movie to bring you to tears.

    DOOM3 is about shooting things. Period. Don't like it, okay, I can relate, but don't try to act as if this is a surprise.

  • Re:Headshot! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Turn-X Alphonse ( 789240 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:28PM (#13036354) Journal
    aww the common misconception. Most zombies (obviously each persons vision is different but still), have very basic brain functions. These are "Must feed" and "Must survive". Now you put the two together and you get a rabid dog in human form.

    So if you disable the brain it can no longer send signals to the main body or even "think" basicly. So a bullet to the brain disables their basic thought and movement in 1.

    Secondly, brains is the "common" thing, but if you notice they just want to eat flesh. Most humans naturally consider flesh the "best" food source (meat and 2 veg, shows this perfectly). So they go after flesh, human or other wise (Most zombie films will show you dead animals being eaten or at least being attacked).

    Of course each "universe" will have it's own way of making zombies and it's own rules, but the basic lay out if above.
  • Ahh but... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by JustNiz ( 692889 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:34PM (#13036402)
    >> ..having to shoot a zombie in the head the same number of times as in the body.. ...In Doom3 you can also blow their heads right off and they still keep coming. Evidently a zombie's head isn't a critical organ, so the body should be more suceptible to damage than the head actually.
  • by Somegeek ( 624100 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:34PM (#13036404)
    Perhaps some Slashdot editors are using Slashdot as a service to drive page views to sites? If they don't hit whatever the agreed upon traffic figure is the first time around they just repost the story until the desired traffic is met?

    They really can't be lame enough to consistently do this by accident can they? There must be some reason behind it. I wouldn't think it would be for the humor, surely that would have worn off by now?
  • by sbma44 ( 694130 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:34PM (#13036405)

    At least, now they do. The requirements for game development are increasing every day, stretching development cycles and requiring more resources.

    id's games have always been about groundbreaking technology, so it's not surprising that as development costs expand, gameplay filligrees in id titles suffer (relative to the competition). id uses its games as technology demos. Don't get me wrong, I love 'em, but their focus is not on the sort of game logic that distinguishes the experiences this story refers to (no, I haven't RTFA yet). Let's face it: AI is an interesting area that needs improvement, but programming headshots is boring. Making realtime rendering engines as good as they can be is a real technical challenge, and something that id can do better than anyone else. That's what makes them unique, and consequently it's also what makes them money -- not from game sales, but from engine licensing.

  • Re:Headshot! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Spez ( 566714 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:34PM (#13036406)
    In fact, i think the therory of a zombie is that the brain can continue to function basically without the heart pumping blood. The only way a physical living (or undead) creature can move its arms/legs is by the brain sending impulses to the muscles to do their job. But since the brain dies when its out of oxygen, the rest of the body becomes useless. When a beeing becomes "undead" (or zombie), the brain keeps functionning basically, so it can still send impulses to the limbs. Theorically, the body would not be able to stay in functionnal state for too long, since the muscles would decay without their share of oxygen.

    But thats only the theory ;) I don't think the muscles could move without their share of oxygen anyway...

    So, to answer what you said, why shoot the head? Because if you blow up the brain, there's no way the body can still continu to work, or to be coordinated, so it should fall to the ground after that.
  • by ivan256 ( 17499 ) * on Monday July 11, 2005 @04:49PM (#13036546)
    FPS games that are single-player only never last.

    And you know this because? Based oin the lack of a available servers to log into? What? I know lots of people still playing Morrowind a year later.

    Everyone plays ut2k4, hl2, CS, whatever because it's fun either sneaking around and sniping people, or jumping around flinging rockets.

    I'll bet money that there are still more people playing Quake 3 than all those games put together. Tens of thousands of people every day on their office LANs. It's not generating any new revenue for Id, but Id is still the king by far if you're counting numbers of current players. "Hardcore" gamers and the gaming rags are so far out of touch with the mainsteram that it's rediculous.
  • Re:Seriously- (Score:3, Interesting)

    by swv3752 ( 187722 ) <[moc.liamtoh] [ta] [2573vws]> on Monday July 11, 2005 @05:57PM (#13037177) Homepage Journal
    It appealed to an older generation. I loved the game and was one of the few solo games I have bothered to finish. I found the game immersive. The flash light could have been better handled.
  • by Kaorimoch ( 858523 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @06:03PM (#13037246) Journal
    Let's not forget this John Carmack gem -

    "Story in a game is like story in a porn
    movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not
    that important."

    Such an attitude will lead to "dumb" games that provide about 20 minutes of fun and 3 hours of boring monotony. Running, shooting and getting scared is all that Doom 3 is. There are no advances on enemy positions, creeping around and no freedom on how to accomplish a task. There is no character development or storyline twists and turns. There was no room for a game player to develop their own story in the game, which is where the magic of modern gaming lies.

    System Shock 2 is a great example of an FPS that has a lot of gameplay factors that places like Id should emulate.
  • by VoidWraith ( 797276 ) <void_wraith AT hotmail DOT com> on Monday July 11, 2005 @06:04PM (#13037248)
    Zombies die quicker with shots to the head than shots to the body, at least with the pistol. It takes two or three shots to the head, as opposed to the correctly mentioned six body shots. And this is on the Normal difficulty. But honestly, if you're going to dis DOOM3, don't rattle on something that actually exists! If I recall correctly, it has per-pixel hit detection too.
  • The interesting thing, I think, is that Doom I & II were released shareware. Doom had to be a seriously good game or no one would ever have bought the full version. How many full versions of Doom3 would have been sold, I wonder?

    The original versions of Doom 1 and 2 were called shareware, but they were not proper shareware. A possitive name for them would be 'demo', a less positive name would be 'crippleware'. ID used a shareware like method by lack of a proper and widespread distribution channel, but for the rest very little changed.

    If you wanted, you could have downloaded a demo version of Doom 3, and looked at the game before buying it, just like I did.

    What did make a difference of course is that due to the hype, more people got the full version of Doom 3 without ever seeing the demo.

    Were Doom 1 and 2 good games? I think they were, but mostly due to being different from anything else at the time, and thus being revolutionary. Doom 3 just rehashes the same kind of content, and well, we have seen enough of it already.

    An entirely different question is what will happen with the engine on the long term. For example, I do run the Quake 3 engine a lot, but not because I play QUake 3 a lot... I did run the Quake 1 engine a lot, but not ecause of playing Quake 1 that much (tho I did play and finish it)

    As I mentioned in another post, ID is not good at creating content, and ever since total conversions of Doom 2 started appearing, it became clear that they needed others to make good games based on their engines. They fully realized this when they made Quake 3, but failed to remember while making Doom 3 obviously.
  • Re:Headshot! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by DudemanX ( 44606 ) <dudemanx@gm a i l . c om> on Monday July 11, 2005 @07:55PM (#13038103) Homepage
    Double Kill!
    Multi Kill!
    Ultra Kill!
    Mon...
    Mon...
    Monster Kill!
    Mon...
    Monster Kill!
    GODLIKE!

    That's what it would sound like when sniping one of the bot spawn points on CTF-Face. There would also be an "Unstoppable" in there somewhere from being alive for so long.

    Good times.
  • Given a premade map, you can do all of the geometrical calculations beforehand, and with some reasonable approximations you can shine a flashlight in a dark room and have it look good.

    Yeah, but that's not global illumination, it's local. You're simply computing the illumination on the visible polygons due to the light source (flashlight), which is quite easy to do in realtime. Global illumination, on the other hand, takes into account the fact that light from the flashlight doesn't always reflect off a surface directly into the camera, but also reflects onto other surfaces and eventually reaches the camera via a potentially long set of intermediate indirect reflections. That cannot be done in realtime, yet.

  • Re:Seriously- (Score:2, Interesting)

    by RexDart ( 806741 ) <jim.foster@noSPam.cox.net> on Monday July 11, 2005 @10:54PM (#13038976) Homepage Journal
    You do realize that in a zombie/undead/demons of hell environment where they can sense you by your very soul, not having a light on you is a big "eat me before I even know you're there" invitation, don't you?

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