Microsoft Sued Over Alleged Xbox 360 Defects

richdun writes "Reuters is reporting that a Chicago man who was lucky enough to purchase an Xbox 360 has filed suit against Microsoft over the overheating and crashing some users have experienced. The man is seeking unspecified damages, litigation expenses, and replacement or recall of all Xbox 360s. While more suits or a class-action is probably on the way, others have sought less litigious solutions."

When in doubt...

[w.p.richardson]

Find a lawyer!

Jeez, you would think that you could just unload the piece of junk on ebay.

This is one thing I don't like about this country

[the_humeister]

Anyone can sue anyone else no matter how stupid it is, and there won't be any repurcussions except more money for the lawyers. What we really need is some system in place where the loser pays to further discourage stupid lawsuits.

I think there's some sci-fi book where the loser and his lawyer dies. That might work too, but I don't think most people would go for that.

Re:fp?

[ylsul]

Actually, I'm glad I didn't rush out and invest that kind of cash on the 360. I can't remember, but I don't seem to recall any horrible defects reported when the N64, PS2 or Dreamcast came out. Could this be because of the haste for hype and market penetration?

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Gr33nNight]

I guess it depends on circumstance. If I just walked into a store, got a 360 and took it home and it didnt work, sure I would return it. But if I waited in line 6 hours, fought customers just to purchase a broken item for my kid who is crying, then if I called Microsoft and got the run around, hell yeah I would sue. Of course I dont have the whole story, so he could just be wanted to cash in.

Extreme Measures

[SerpentBlade2100]

While suing M$ is probably a very extreme thing to do, he does raise a very valid point on defective merchandise. If you take a look at the polls released on most XBox sites they all seem to be asking the same question: "Is your 360 FUBAR?". The numbers that come back are showing 1 in 5 360s have a problem. I'm not sure what numbers M$ has over there at the QA Help Desk, but if they are regarding 20% as a "very, very small fraction" then such a matter should be taken to the public. They are playing down what is apparently a huge problem, but then this is in line with most M$ product releases. Just look at Windows ME, maybe in comparison 20% IS a "very, very small fraction". Meanwhile we can rest assure that both Sony and the Big-N are kicking back laughing at the XBox 360's release problems and polishing their systems properly.

Oh please

[radish]

You get bad units, it happens with any products. Microsoft are replacing all units which exhibit any fault, for example overheating. They overnight you an empty box, you put the defective unit in and overnight it back, then they overnight you a new unit. Total time elapsed: less than a week, total cost to you: zero dollars. That's better than most return policies in my experience. So far MS have been saying that the return rate is around 3%, which is below industry average. So again - what's the problem here? A company produced a product which has lower than average failure rates and is happily and rapidly replacing any defective units for free.

This guy doesn't wany justice, he wants free money. He's a greedy ass and should be brought to book for encouraging this insane litagation culture to feed his own pocket.

And the last thing I want is a recall - mine is working perfectly.

Why would you buy a machine with a $99 return poli

[thpdg]

Why would you buy a machine with a $99 return policy?
From what I've heard on other sites discussing the power pack problem, the warranty requires you to submit a $99 payment with the system when attempting to receive repair or replacement.
WHY would someone buy a product with such lousy coverage??

That's fine and dandy....

[Anonymous Coward]

If you aren't happy with the 360 why not just take it back? Why does everything have to resort to a law suit?

But what if he can't take it back? That's the thing that really pisses me off about electronics, software, and music: once you open the fucker, you can't return it in many cases. It really pisses me off regarding the EULAs for software, either accept it or don't use it, either way you bought it and therefore the publisher and retailer gets their money! I'm sure for that reason, EULAs can't be enforced in court - at least with store bought software.

I don't know what my point is. I've stopped buying electronics and music. I only buy software when I really have to. Otherwise, I live without it.

Re:Responsibility

[Xugumad]

A responsible company would recall defective hardware, which seems to be the main thrust of the lawsuit.

I think the issue is that a lot of people are assuming every XBox 360 will have exactly the same heat output. This is fairly obviously not true - the CPU cores, GPU, and memory can vary in their heat output. The real problem seems to be Microsoft has been a little over-optimistic about what heat output maximum they'll accept. End result, they get a lot of returns, which is going to be costing them a fortune anyway.

If there's an issue with people following the instructions (don't put on carpet, leave space around it), it overheating and Microsoft not replacing it, okay, but this just sounds like the guy is hoping he can make himself some more money...

Re:Oh please

[utexaspunk]

I seem to remember a German friend of mine telling me that, in Germany, punitive damages are not awarded to the victim but instead go to some sort of general fund. It seems we could use something like that here to help keep the frivolous lawsuits down.

Liability and suing

[aepervius]

Actually as far as I understand you can be liable for a product you manifacture & sell if either 1) it has knowingly a default 2) it does not respect the local norm/standard 3) it does not work as described in the manual/package (please notice that I do not say it does not work as adverstised!). Liability can involve depending on the country from replacement of the unit, partial or complete refund and in the most extreme case, recall or even severe fine and damage (mostly in case of default endangering a life).

Now this US situation is this : you can sue ANYBODY. Naturally a judge might throw your claim out, or even kick you out of the court for contempt, your claim might not even go beyond a first hearing or whatnot. Suing does not guarantee you have a claim, it only means you THINK you have a claim. See for example each year the tax protester suing the federal governement (NONE get beyond the judge throwing the claim out or even laughing and in one documented case calling the claimant a fool). So in that case, since a solution already exists (replacement of the unit) then the lawsuit won't probably go very far. That is, unless he can prove 1) that he can't get a replacement or a refund from MS/reseller or/and 2) the overheating unit involve a life risk and/or already damaged a person and/or possessions(items).

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe those companies are spoiled and should be brought up not to whine and cry because they are punished for releasing a faulty, dangerous product.

Why is everyone blaming the victim ?

[Chaffar]

I'm pretty shocked to see the number of posts that are actually calling the guy who bought the 360 an idiot 'cause he should "raise it one inch from the floor". I mean come on, the fact is that he was sold a lemon, and an expensive one too. The XBox 360 has a major problem, one that is VERY HARD to believe that it was overseen by the team of engineers, playtesters etc... Unless testing today means, turning the machine on, checking if left=left, the start button works, and the controller works after dropping it twice on the floor.

So the guy is wrong in suing MS, maybe. But somewhere I hope this will make the major manufacturers avoid selling crap they haven't properly tested first. [The following sentence is not flamebait so please] If they can actually sell a console that overheats in less than 20 minutes without knowing of the problem, it's scary to think how they handled their OS design, where flaws are less visible but can be just as bad.

Glitch or Design Flaw???

[FerretFrottage]

Microsoft sued over alleged Xbox 360 glitch [headline]
"A Chicago man who bought Microsoft Corp.'s new
Xbox 360 has sued the world's largest software maker, saying the new video game console has a design flaw that causes it to overheat and freeze up...."

My car has a glitch/design flaw as well. If I start it and leave the keys in the ignition and then get out of my car and lock the doors, I can't get back into my car without modding my car's window or calling in "experts" (legally registered tax paying business, or the type registered by the sheriff's department).

I have a 360 and it does run hot....they need to have proper ventilation, probably more so than any other computer or A/V component I've ever owned. I'm not sure how well the manual states this as I never read them (hey this is /., who reads manuals), but if you take a 360 a stuff in a location that doesn't have good air flow then I'm not surprised the unit is crashing. FWIW, I have mine in an open AV rack that has plenty of ventilation and I've had the thing on for over straight hours at one point and it didn't crash on me. Not all that time was playing games--the last 2+ hours of was playing it and MCE 2005, but when you can justify the purchase to the wife by streaming HD pr0n onto the HDTV, it's worth the time.

Now was it wise of MS/partners to design it this way (to run as hot as it does and require so much ventilation)? Who knows what their design specs say. But just image taking your tower PC, shrinking by a factor of 4-5 times and then cranking up the CPU/GPU full throttle and think about how much heat would be generated. I'm not saying it's an excuse, but owners of some of the new high powered high tech toys may need to be educated on how well this ptoys work as a space heater.

A bit ironic

[satsujin]

I know that this will be modded down, but, seriously, I find it really ironic that just because MS has made something that ./ers like, suddenly a majority of posters think they shouldn't be held accountable for outputting crap.

If this were any other Microsoft product, everyone would be supporting this guy/joining the suit/boycotting Microsoft.

sigh..

Re:Oh please

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that sounds great on paper and over the phone... until that overnight empty box still hasn't arrived after 7 business days.

It's even better when you called after 3 days of waiting and a supervisor tells you it's actually not overnight and you'll just have to wait.

I just hope my replacement is on the way before all the units waiting for christmas power-up clog up MS support even more.

At least Geometry Wars doesn't freeze mine. ;)

Re:When in doubt...

[syukton]

the person bought the Xbox with the expectation that this was a tested and a viable product from an established company.

The latter half of the statement is not true. This was not a tested product

Ah, but you are totally incorrect! The latter half of the statement is true. The device was tested thoroughly and the conclusion was that the device is not to be placed in an enclosed space or on a soft surface which will obstruct airflow. This information is in the manual. It's the consumer that isn't being tested thoroughly enough these days, the products are just fine.

See here:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/getstarted/syste m/xbox360/connect-positionconsole.htm [xbox.com]

Prevent the Console from Overheating
Do not block any ventilation openings on the console or power supply. Do not place the console or power supply on a bed, sofa, or other soft surface that may block ventilation openings. Do not place the console or power supply in a confined space, such as a bookcase, rack, or stereo cabinet, unless the space is well ventilated.

Do not place the console or power supply near any heat sources, such as radiators, heat registers, stoves, or amplifiers.

The first time I got into this argument there weren't scans or PDFs of the manual available online, but it appears that now there are:
http://assets.xbox.com/en-us/support/na-console-fu ll.pdf [xbox.com]

And lo and behold, on page three of the manual it says exactly what I quoted above. What we have here is a case of "dumb consumer" and not "bad product." If you don't read the manual and consequently use a device in a manner in which it is not intended, it's your own goddamn fault and not the fault of the manufacturer who tried to instruct you about the proper use of the console. Short of putting an ugly sticker on the console that says "Read the manual, dumbfuck!" what more can they do? They recognized the operating constraints of the console as a result of thorough testing and they notified the consumer of the limitations inherent in that design. If you read the manual and don't like what you read, return the product. Don't bitch and moan and sue because you can't use it in a way other than it's described in the manual.

Re:Why not just return the thing?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work at Sams Club. Each store had about 20 (not sure how many stores there are though). Sams will take things back years after you buy them with a receipt. However, we've been told to not accept ANY returns on defective xbox 360s, instead giving the buyer a phone number to contact Microsoft with.

Of course, the email also said that MS would pay quick(overnight?) shipping both ways.

Re:The Manual

[aaronl]

You had to buy it to read the manual. It is a defect that was made known to the purchaser after the fact. It *is* a defect, because it causes the product to not work properly, nor work like any of the other products of the same type, nor work the way most customers would want to use it. The manufacturer knew about the defect, but chose to not disclose it before you made the purchase.

The lawsuit is inappropriate, but this is the clearest way to make manufacturers learn to not make and sell sub-standard products.

Re:If you think making the loser pay is a good ide

[StikyPad]

Right. Pay-your-own-fees means people can't afford to win, and loser-pays means they can't afford to lose.

The solution, obviously, is to make lawyers work for free.

Sad example of society

[seabreezemm]

It sickens me to see the morally ignorant champion the cause of the unjust and wicked. It seems that the younger generation lacks any back bone at all for what's good and correct in the world. More and more often I see a sub 30s something argue in favor of stealing, cheating, lying and even murder. This is downfall of our modern society and the doom of our future unless we that know what is good and just stand and fight for those things we know to be correct. This is more than simply an Xbox that over heats this is about a company that knowingly has stolen from the public more than once and continues to do so as a business model. Microsoft was well aware that the Xbox was prone to overheating I assure you. They may not have found out till close to the release date and decided to roll the dice that more consumers would simply roll over and take the inferior and broken product rather than protest it. It would have cost MS far more to simply correct the problem and delay release than to see how many would actually return the ill designed units for repairs. Law suits sadly are the only way to force large companies to do what is right since they refuse to do it on their own so file away and let them suffer the pains of lost profits until they learn the lesson of honest business practices and good customer relations. For those that continue to argue in favor of the theft of my hard earned money I say shame on you.

Re:fp?

[fyngyrz]

1. We know how to manage considerably more heat than the 360 has to deal with. Fact.

2. Many of the problems are with the cord tumor overheating, not the 360. Fact.

3. We know how to manage considerably more heat than the cord tumor has to deal with. Fact.

4. There are optical drives that won't sign their names in deep crevasses if you tilt them. MS knew about the problem prior to shipping, it's discussed in the docs. They knew that XBoxen were going to get placed on tables, floors, and in the process, get knocked over. It's a product with HUGE appeal for kids and teenagers, for Pete's sake. It would have been fairly trivial to make them robust enough to survive, and picking a drive that wouldn't eat your $50-at-a-pop media when orientation is changed in the most gentle fashion imaginable isn't exactly rocket science, either.

As an engineer, I see this primarily as blindly grasping at form and fumbling function as a direct consequence. I don't think it is excusable; I don't have a problem with requiring reasonable vent space on the main unit, but having to hang the cord tumor by string... that's way, way, way over the top. Can you imagine trying to use one of these in an apartment without air conditioning? Probably set the bloody building on fire. :/

I'm really glad I waited. I have five to buy — three sons, one for me, one for the lady of the house — I think MS really impregnated the canine, here. We'll see what batch #2 looks like. In the meantime, XBox1 will do.

And BTW... All of our PS2's are original launch units -- and they're all still working fine.